Author Topic: Increase elf strength  (Read 4329 times)

Dar

  • Posts: 1394
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2018, 10:52:42 PM »

Yeah, and by hour 400 your elf might be as capable of killing as a 1 day dwarf.

If I'm metagaming, using knowledge from prior characters, and playing only to win, then my day one elf will kill a day one dwarf. And if the plan botches, the elf can run around in circles in the Rinth absolutely forever until the dwarf player gets bored, then grind up a little and try again with the same tactic.

Forgive me, Number13. I confess your points makes me cringe. Your statements are theoretical, not practical. Nobody who had a successful, long lived Celf character will make statements like the ones you do. And to support that point, you innuend other people's roleplay quality. I find that to be very nonconstructive and a little bit insulting. I too disagree with the OP's posts,but it's certainly possible to disagree with it, without being insulting. Maybe that's just me, but I figured I'd let you know how your posts are seen by at least me.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6162
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2018, 01:53:09 AM »
Just glancing through this thread, I find myself sorely in need of cheese to clear my sommelier palate.

It's not the staff don't care about making things balanced, it's the city elves are balanced. Sorry you don't agree bro, sorry your anecdotal evidence is anecdotal bro. But the pure and simple fact is that City elves and desert elves aren't going to be changed, because they work perfectly for what they are.

"But they don't do enough damage."
*gestures vaguely at a huge history of deadly elves*

"But they can't carry stuff."
*nods slightly at the mount/pack code*

"But I want to instagibb errthing and be hella smrat.*
We already have had enough high int half giants, kthx.

Elves, both City and desert, are meant to be lightweight, highly mobile guerrilla combatants.  If you are in a Toe to Toe fight with your opponent and you don't have an advantage, you're already playing an elf wrong.

Ahem, while I largely agree but have basically defended elves too often (and thus haven't really participated here), I -would- say that the legitimacy of the strength gripe comes in the amount of encumbrance from the lighter armors of the game.  In days of yore, not a big a deal, but in days where encumbrance affects certain things more heavily, it's actually kind of a deal for any who dress the part of what you describe in a non-filthy-rinthrat capacity.

I've always said that that was more of an itemization than race-tweaking issue, though.

Quote
It's a topic that comes up probably more often than any other singular issue with the game.

Just as a note, the framework of those complaints, outside of the need for coded tribes (i.e. The complaints about city-elf stats, mechanics, bonuses, etc) are generally based around trying to play the elf as if it were supposed to be something else.  If you play an elf, and try to kill things like you are a dwarf, then yes, you'll be underwhelmed.
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Majikal

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Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2018, 02:04:50 AM »
Played a bunch of combat oriented c-elves, got a lot done without being long-lived, never had a c-elf with higher than "good" strength that I can recall. Never had any issues and nearly all of them were successful characters. In fact, I'd say my ratio of successful elves vs successful humans is probably very, very in favor of the elves. City elves are good in one place, the city. The race + classes are actually insanely powerful and if anything, really op in a lot of areas. Play your dwarves and wear your platemail with your awesome strength, find a nice middle ground on stats with a human, or be a god damn master of all things agility based with a c-elf. They fit their role in the city, desert elves are a bit stronger, more endurance, a bit less agility than c-elves, but their race is catered to survive in the desert. Agility helps on a HUGE amount of skills and also favors combat defense hugely..and lots of combat skills that tend to be how those sneaky elves tend to fight.

If you feel like your elf needs to be able to wear silt horror armor to be viable as a character, you're probably doing it wrong.
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10174
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2018, 02:09:06 AM »
Well I'm glad my point of city elves being so stupendously weak that starting eq pings them with encumbrance penalties has been addressed, rather than propped up as a strawman of "u want silt horror armor elves? No thanx". Thanks.
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10174
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2018, 02:10:44 AM »
Etwo dagger attacks bouncing off rat hide seems sensible now that you've convinced me.
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Heade

  • Posts: 703
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2018, 02:16:09 AM »
Well I'm glad my point of city elves being so stupendously weak that starting eq pings them with encumbrance penalties has been addressed, rather than propped up as a strawman of "u want silt horror armor elves? No thanx". Thanks.

It's not like you've been incredibly specific, here. Where did you prioritize strength for that to happen? How bad was the roll?

I imagine a human could be in the same sort of boat with strength prioritized last and a shitty roll. A bit of context is important. Some characters gotta be weak in a system with random stats. That's just the way it is. Not every elf starts with encumbrance penalties from starting eq, right?
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Majikal

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Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2018, 02:20:21 AM »
Even my human rangers bounce attacks off of animals out of the gate sometimes. Do they for more than a handful of hours playtime and practicing? No. You act as though it's a problem that will plague your character for the entirety of their existence.
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Majikal

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Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2018, 02:22:57 AM »
Also, this encumbrance thing..

Above average elven strength, I have a log here showing one of my pc's in an entire outfit of leather, with multiple weapons. Light encumbrance.

It's really easy to pick up one wrong item in Armageddon and throw your encumrance out of whack. You'd be surprised how much that spear or that shield weighs, value is a pretty rad skill.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 6162
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2018, 02:57:41 AM »
Etwo dagger attacks bouncing off rat hide seems sensible now that you've convinced me.

Extreme sarcasm aimed at people who very specifically know the problems of the race you're talking about just comes across in ways that are definitely not favorable to either your cause or the presentation of your knowledge of said race.

Trust me, I know the plights of elven strength.  Also trust me, you're totally overdoing the scenario quoted above, and the attempts to lead those less well-versed into believing that this is a consistent 'problem' aren't really doing a single person any favors.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6162
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2018, 03:02:37 AM »
Quote
Also, this encumbrance thing..

Above average elven strength, I have a log here showing one of my pc's in an entire outfit of leather, with multiple weapons. Light encumbrance.

They were likely lucky enough to find a single set that actually has good weight ratios, or they were lucky enough to be clanned with quarters to keep random items that are useful to keep around on a shady elf, or were part of a class where keeping items that stay in your inventory until they're useful isn't a thing.  Likely also not concerned with carrying water or food.

Essentially, there are items in the game that are appropriate for elven encumbrance insofar as you do have at least above average or good strength, but they will put you directly on the border of encumbered so that a race that does not often have 'safe' storage for anything will more often than not be encumbered.

Again, I think this is less an issue of elven strength (because I actually find their damage levels and such fairly appropriate), but an issue where certain things just don't scale well as far as weight and encumbrance.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9683
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2018, 07:31:04 AM »
Well I'm glad my point of city elves being so stupendously weak that starting eq pings them with encumbrance penalties has been addressed, rather than propped up as a strawman of "u want silt horror armor elves? No thanx". Thanks.

Stop playing city elves.
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number13

  • Posts: 1022
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2018, 09:17:47 AM »
And to support that point, you innuend other people's roleplay quality.

...what?

I'm imagining a scenario where it's like Rust server, where you play to win, using all of your knowledge (rather than limiting yourself to your character's knowledge). In that scenario, I'm saying I could beat a day one dwarf with a day one elf, and in that match up, I would take the elf over the dwarf. Statwise, c-elves are pretty good.

I'm taking roleplaying out of that equation entirely. Mine, the opponents, and virtual world, and just comparing effectiveness within the rinthi environment.

....actually, let me more explicit about the scenario. A dwarf player and an elf player get 24 hours of play to grind up and collect gear, without fighting each other.  At the end of that 24 hours, they must both stay logged in, in the Rinth, with no other players participating, until one or the other dies.

Assuming equal knowledge from both players, the elf would win that scenario most of the time.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 09:25:50 AM by number13 »

Inks

  • Posts: 1215
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2018, 10:42:22 AM »
GDB is dumb. Elf would be nice with a little more strength.



That being said stop comparing classes and races like balance is a thing. Remember when mages were basically unstoppable at 5 days played (don't mention your 20 day ranger again nobody cares about how good your pew pew is).


I love celf, and they can kill just fine with a bit of extra time in them. They make great thieves, assassins or mages, personally, though.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 10:46:03 AM by Inks »
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Narf

  • Posts: 848
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2018, 12:42:36 PM »
Narrowing encumbrance ranges would probably be the better solution than increasing elven strength.  It would avoid making elves stronger than they're supposed to be in lore while still allowing them to carry basic gear they need to operate. Finally it would eliminate the walking pack-mule effect of high strength characters with a single code adjustment.

tapas

  • Posts: 357
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2018, 08:41:15 PM »
Even my human rangers bounce attacks off of animals out of the gate sometimes. Do they for more than a handful of hours playtime and practicing? No. You act as though it's a problem that will plague your character for the entirety of their existence.

So far it's still a thing. With all listed combat skills at their maximum.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10174
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2018, 08:51:22 PM »
I was also not exagerrating about being able to get strength low enough that etwo dagger attacks will bounce off of rats.
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mansa

  • Posts: 9594
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2018, 11:22:35 PM »
Your blow bounces off a filthy grey rat's tough skin.
Etwo dagger attacks bouncing off rat hide seems sensible now that you've convinced me.
I was also not exagerrating about being able to get strength low enough that etwo dagger attacks will bounce off of rats.

Please, have a hot chocolate and sit down on a nice chair. 
Breathe. 
Smell the nice aroma of the hot drink.  Wait.  Pause.  Consider.


In my experience, Armaddict and Synthesis have the hours behind many city elf characters.  In my biased opinion, they have the knowledge of 'the plight of zalanthas elves'.  What are they saying?

...the framework of those complaints, outside of the need for coded tribes (i.e. The complaints about city-elf stats, mechanics, bonuses, etc) are generally based around trying to play the elf as if it were supposed to be something else.  If you play an elf, and try to kill things like you are a dwarf, then yes, you'll be underwhelmed.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elves

"Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race."


I think topic needs to levelset as to what the intent of the elven race is, and what this change would do if we implemented it.  There are a few things that can be done in regards to the strength stat.   
Are we simply asking for more damage to be shifted from weapons that would benefit from agility, a-la D&D 5e agility based bonuses for piercing weapons?  Or are we asking to adjust the encumberance tolerances for elven race, to carry more equipment?   Are we asking to create elven-race specific equipment that is lighter than human equipment?

Don't gotta make it human level. But it sucks. It sucks. It fucking sucks. It sucks so much. Oh my god. What the fuck. It fucking sucks. It's awful. Terrible. Horrible. Absolutely garbage. Crippling, to be honest, if you get hit with it low enough. You can get strength so low your starting gear puts you at 'easily manageable'. What the fuck?

...Or are we just saying it sucks?
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tapas

  • Posts: 357
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2018, 12:20:52 AM »
I think it should be a discussion about bringing stats back to earth in general.

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19024
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2018, 02:34:24 AM »
YES. Please. I've hated stats in this game for a long, long time. The difference between AI and very poor is MASSIVE. It's too much of a random gamble when making your character. I'm consistently disappointed in my stats and it doesn't matter how many times people tell you "stats don't matter" or any stat is payable. To the first stats might not matter for them but they do for a lot of other people. And to the second "playable" is not what I look for when I'm trying to gauge my enjoyment of a game.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10174
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2018, 05:15:17 AM »
Having agility based weapons with a lower cap on damage than strength based weapons, to allow Mister McBeefWarrior to do DAMRAGE better than some miscreant, would be sick, imo. But mostly, I think you shouldn't be a literal cripple if you roll low elf strength. Maybe you should be able to wear, I don't fucking know, three pieces of armor? Be able to stab a rat if you can hit it? Be able to carry a waterskin without receiving encumbrance penalty to what everyone seems to agree is supposed to be elves' main stat.
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10174
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2018, 05:17:09 AM »
Can't we still have elves be weaker than human if we bring their lack of strength in line with dwarves' comparative lack of agility and wisdom compared to humans? I really do feel like elves are much weaker than humans, than dwarves are slower and stupider than humans.

Though, that may be the case right now, which if so, maybe something can be done over strength being the exponential galaxy spanning god emperor of stats.
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roughneck

  • Posts: 813
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2018, 05:29:49 AM »
There's a reason why football players are huge, combat sports have weight classes, and why comic book heroes are jacked.

Strength wins battles.

Strength impact on combat in Armageddon doesn't need to be changed.

Celves definitely could use some love and adjustment, but I think there's far more jarring obstacles to get your around than the race being physically weak.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10174
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2018, 05:53:23 AM »
You can also lift some weights IRL and you can't really do that in Arm.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1394
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2018, 07:06:09 AM »
There's a reason why football players are huge, combat sports have weight classes, and why comic book heroes are jacked.

Strength wins battles.

Strength impact on combat in Armageddon doesn't need to be changed.

Celves definitely could use some love and adjustment, but I think there's far more jarring obstacles to get your around than the race being physically weak.

Black widow, batman, daredevil, bruce lee, ninjas, pretty much most martial artists really. All are primarily agility/technique/cunning based fighters, not strength focused ones. Your example, in my opinion, is bad Roughneck.

I'm still against increasing celven strength.

But maybe, yes, perhaps strength sheer impact on 'everything' should be reevaluated, so it is not so much more superior to any other stat.

Or perhaps all other skills should be reevaluated, so they rely on agility/wisdom more? Perhaps the problem is that agility becomes irrelevant once the skills are high enough, while strength remains relevant ALWAYS.

roughneck

  • Posts: 813
Re: Increase elf strength
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2018, 07:12:28 AM »
There's a reason why football players are huge, combat sports have weight classes, and why comic book heroes are jacked.

Strength wins battles.

Strength impact on combat in Armageddon doesn't need to be changed.

Celves definitely could use some love and adjustment, but I think there's far more jarring obstacles to get your around than the race being physically weak.

Black widow, batman, daredevil, bruce lee, ninjas, pretty much most martial artists really. All are primarily agility/technique/cunning based fighters, not strength focused ones. Your example, in my opinion, is bad Roughneck.


Well, I always thought that martial artists had weight classes in competition to protect the smaller competitors, but I could be wrong. Maybe it's to protect the big strong guys from the unfairly fast smaller ones.