Author Topic: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?  (Read 2116 times)

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 441
Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« on: June 02, 2018, 12:26:14 PM »
Hi, I posted about this on the Drovians thread but it was a bit of a tangent, so I'm making my own thread.

Let's talk about the bahamet in the room: karma reviews. It's always been a bit of a mild taboo in the Arm community to talk about wanting karma, because the orthodox view is that karma isn't very important and shouldn't be anyone's main goal. And honestly, that's probably correct on both counts. Karma isn't the point of the game, and it's definitely unhealthy to put too much emphasis on it. But I think it's important to remember that it's natural to want karma, whether it's for the new and exciting roles that open up, or just for the recognition and the symbol of trust from staff. And I think it's particularly natural for a new player to want karma.

As I said in the other thread, my understanding of why the karma scale was shrunk from 8 to 3 was so that those high-end roles wouldn't seem so unattainable anymore. I remember being new and seeing that psionicists were 8 karma, and thinking I'd never in my life get the opportunity to play one. It seemed like the kind of thing that would take a decade or more to earn, and what new player knows they're going to be playing in a decade? What new player can feel confident that the game will still be around (and populated) for a decade? So I totally agreed with the decision to make the karma scale a lot less daunting.

But is it truly less daunting, really? There may only be three rungs on the ladder now, but many of us established players are sitting pretty on rungs 2 and 3 while new players can't even ask to step onto the first one. So, even though at first glance the 3 karma scale looks a lot more manageable for new players, they soon learn that it's more insurmountable than ever. And it's a theme I've noticed with these new players. They feel disheartened, they feel discouraged, they feel unappreciated. They feel like this moratorium favors those of us who have been playing a long time and punishes people who just started and have absolutely no idea when they'll be allowed to even request to be trusted to play so much as a master chef without personally beseeching staff for it.

It's starting to worry me how much I see this complaint. And while it may be tempting for those of us with karma to lecture the newer players about how karma isn't a big deal, etc., the truth is that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the new players are "right" or "wrong" to be upset about not being allowed to ask for karma. What matters is that it's an easily fixable problem that is causing newbies to want to give up. It's a lot easier for us mid to high level karma players to say things like "karma doesn't matter." There is no doubt in my mind that it feels shitty to be denied the opportunity to even ask for your longevity point while the rest of us peer down from our 2 and 3 karma accounts that predate the moratorium and claim that these noobs shouldn't care about karma because we don't. Let the newbies figure out whether karma does or doesn't matter on their own, after they're able to earn some.

So, here's the bottom line and the tl;dr. I propose that karma reviews should be opened for zero karma players only, until the restriction is lifted. This serves a dual purpose of letting newbies know that hey, staff do appreciate them, as well as reducing staff workload when the reviews are finally fully opened and the floodgates burst.


Lizzie

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2018, 12:56:42 PM »
This is where Ms. Possessiveness rears her ugly head. I vote no for this.

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender. And just as soon as I did, they changed the karma system, and now I no longer qualify. In fact, I can't even play a whiran without special apping, whereas prior to the change, I had whira karma.

I'm can't get very enthusiastic about some 1-month-played player getting a bump to the same 2 that I'm now stuck with, especially if they can ask for a bump and I can't.

Also, so far as I know, everyone starts with 1 point out of the 3.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 12:58:19 PM by Lizzie »
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Large Hero

  • Posts: 595
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2018, 01:06:13 PM »
I'm a veteran player who rarely bothers with karma roles. 0 karma roles are the most fun for me. I don't often find magick or half-giants or muls very interesting.

However, it's important to have empathy, the ability to understand another person's feelings.

I can easily see why a new player would feel discouraged and repelled by a complete inability to gain Karma, especially when the system has been closed for over a year.

Karma is advertised as a measure of staff trust, as a reward for good roleplay, as the gateway to unusual character roles that might even be the reason a person has decided to try Armageddon in the first place, and it appears to them that there's no hope for getting it.

The problem with this is that new players are the lifeblood of a MUD. We absolutely need to retain them. The new players we get today may turn into the awesome, veteran, engaging roleplayers of years to come. It would be a great loss to lose future stars of the game to something as simple as karma inaccessibility.

There may be good reasons for closing karma reviews and leaving them closed. However, I feel the potential discouragement and loss of new players is so damaging to the long-term health of the game that re-opening karma reviews should become a priority.

If it's the only solution possible at this time, sleepyhead's idea of re-opening reviews for new players is a good one and should be carefully considered.



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Strongheart

  • Posts: 148
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2018, 01:09:37 PM »
This is where Ms. Possessiveness rears her ugly head. I vote no for this.

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender. And just as soon as I did, they changed the karma system, and now I no longer qualify. In fact, I can't even play a whiran without special apping, whereas prior to the change, I had whira karma.

I'm can't get very enthusiastic about some 1-month-played player getting a bump to the same 2 that I'm now stuck with, especially if they can ask for a bump and I can't.

Also, so far as I know, everyone starts with 1 point out of the 3.

... you, uh, okay there?
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Nao

  • Posts: 1897
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2018, 01:16:20 PM »
This is where Ms. Possessiveness rears her ugly head. I vote no for this.

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender. And just as soon as I did, they changed the karma system, and now I no longer qualify. In fact, I can't even play a whiran without special apping, whereas prior to the change, I had whira karma.

I'm can't get very enthusiastic about some 1-month-played player getting a bump to the same 2 that I'm now stuck with, especially if they can ask for a bump and I can't.

Also, so far as I know, everyone starts with 1 point out of the 3.
You understand wrong. Everyone starts out at 0 karma, this would open up a chance for them to get to 1, not 2. And afaik you cannot put in a karma review on a month-old account anyway - you need to have been playing for at least a year (or half a year? I can’t remember and I am on my phone, so it’s a bit of a pain to look up). There is also a 2 karma whiran option (NOT the touches, which is 1 karma). It may not be the class you want, but there is a whiran option you can play, in addition to the touched.

I hav also noticed several new players that are frustrated with the blocked karma reviews, and think this would be a great compromise. Karma reviews from 0 karma players (I am not one of them, so no hidden agenda to have them opened) probably the least work when it comes to karma reviews. Most players that have been around long enough should be able to fulfill the longevity criterium, so the decision to bump them to 1 karma, or not, could be as easy as looking at that single criterion.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 02:12:13 PM by Nao »
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sleepyhead

  • Posts: 441
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2018, 01:20:31 PM »
Lizzie, I commiserate with your feelings about your karma level. I've actually complained about it on the GDB many times, probably shooting myself in the foot in the process by making myself look bratty as hell. I too have had many options taken away. Few things would please me more than for all karma reviews to be opened so that I would finally be able to advocate for my 3rd point. That'd be my first choice. Just open them for everybody.

But if that's not an option right now, and it seems like it's not, I don't see why our own feelings of jealousy or possessiveness should be a good justification for maintaining a policy that is visibly driving new players away. I hope you'll pardon me if I say that it seems like a selfish way to look at it. A newbie being awarded their longevity point isn't going to take away any more of our 2 karma options, and it might keep that player from quitting in frustration. How is that not worth it?

And no, new players don't get one karma right out of the box. They start with zero.

Large Hero, you made some great points. It's all about looking at it from the new players' perspective. Thank you.

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1492
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2018, 01:28:37 PM »
This is where Ms. Possessiveness rears her ugly head. I vote no for this.

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender. And just as soon as I did, they changed the karma system, and now I no longer qualify. In fact, I can't even play a whiran without special apping, whereas prior to the change, I had whira karma.

I'm can't get very enthusiastic about some 1-month-played player getting a bump to the same 2 that I'm now stuck with, especially if they can ask for a bump and I can't.

Also, so far as I know, everyone starts with 1 point out of the 3.

This is the wrong atmosphere to be aiming for, anyway. They can't play cool things because that would diminish your sense of accomplishment?

It took me close to three years to hit the magic number 5, and then I just stopped asking for karma because everything was available to me. I'd have probably gone a different route if I knew about the incoming karma change, and was consequently a little miffed when that was no longer the case. I understand the frustration you're feeling!

You put a good amount of time into it and now that's been fucked, but I disagree with the sentiment of new players needing to carry a burden so you feel -less- fucked.

Edit: Fucking phones.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 02:02:54 PM by TheWanderer »
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CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1093
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2018, 01:31:15 PM »
Since part of karma is longevity, what if you just automatically got 1 karma as soon as you played an 8-day character or something?
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sleepyhead

  • Posts: 441
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2018, 01:32:28 PM »
I used to think that was what longevity meant, because that's what it sounds like it means, but I think it is actually how long you've been playing the game (regularly).

It probably could be awarded automatically, but I kind of like that it requires personal attention. It makes people feel more appreciated.

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 364
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2018, 02:04:44 PM »
I think this is a good idea if the new account has been around the set longevity period (I don't remember if there was one for that). The longevity point should be available if someone is playing and having fun.

Otherwise, wasn't there a process for regenerating CGP that even 0 karma accounts had access to? I thought that we all had three special applications every 30 days that we could use. I may be a bit confused about it (I don't 100% understand it) , but I think I remember putting one in at one point and the request tool reflecting it somehow. If so, a 0 karma account can still app for skill bumps and roles higher than where they are at, it just takes a bit longer to be able to play that character if it gets approved and you can STILL play another character while you wait. I know it is a bit of a merry go round, but the option is there.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 441
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2018, 02:14:41 PM »
WithSprinkles, there used to be 3 special apps a year, but now you only get 2. I think they are still required to be the same 30 days apart. It's a fair point that newbies can special app extended subguilds and touched every now and then.

However, from talking to these new players, I think the main issue is not so much what they do and don't get to play as it is feeling that they're not "trusted" or "recognized." It's not so much that they can only play one warrior/outdoorsman every six months that is bugging them; it's their perception that staff doesn't think they're actually trustworthy enough to handle an outdoorsman without it being this rare, specially staff-granted thing. Beyond that, they can't even ask to be allowed that trust. They just have to be randomly noticed, and if they're not, they feel shitty.

I also think the opening of the beta guilds to 1+ karma players has something to do with the mounting frustration among new 0 karma players, because you can't special app for those. It's not the message staff is intending to send, but new players are hearing, "We don't trust you enough to to try these guilds, and we aren't allowing you the opportunity to earn that trust."

I'm not saying that their feelings are justified, but I understand why they feel that way and I think we're unnecessarily creating an environment that encourages that feeling.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 02:16:22 PM by sleepyhead »

Nao

  • Posts: 1897
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2018, 02:17:37 PM »
New players with 0 karma can special app for 1 karma roles. If they get that longevity point, they donít have to special app 1 karma roles anymore and can special app 2 karma roles. They are missing out on additional options that simply arenít available while theyíre stuck at 0 karma.
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sleepyhead

  • Posts: 441
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2018, 02:25:56 PM »
Yes. And the truth is that many of these players aren't that new anymore. Karma reviews have been closed since February 2017--15 months ago--so we have not only accounts who were created since then, but also accounts that were created a few months before that, who have never had the chance to even submit a karma review. It's about time that these players, some of whom have been playing for well over a year and some well on their way to two years, had the opportunity to just ask for a karma point.

A year or two may seem like nothing to a vet who has been playing for 20 years, but to a new player, it's a long time.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 02:27:46 PM by sleepyhead »

mansa

  • Posts: 9449
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2018, 03:37:36 PM »
I think everybody should get 1 karma as soon as they hit 30 days played cumulative.
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MarshallDFX

  • Posts: 1529
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2018, 04:04:47 PM »
I understand the karma system is necessary for screening abusers but its lampoonably pretentious in its current form.   But I'm a filthy liberal and believe in the goodness of personkind.

What exactly are we afraid of here?  Protecting a karma monopoly means you're taking for granted the people you play with. It's wrong.

Then again.... It may be a brilliant marketing ploy for all I know.  One does love something unattainable

PS Limit how many psionists and sorcs are running around somehow? Absolutely. Taking a decade to reach 8 karma is beyond the pale.  I could spit my beer on somebody it's so laughably stupid. 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 04:10:14 PM by MarshallDFX »

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2018, 04:31:07 PM »
I thought everyone started out able to app desert elf and one or two rukkian/vivaduan options. Since I've been corrected on that, I'm fine with new players being able to automatically bump up to 1 karma after a certain amount of time played (cumulatively regardless of how many characters they've played during that time period).

I still am against them being able to request a karma review, until we are ALL allowed to request a karma review.
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Brokkr

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  • Posts: 370
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2018, 04:43:02 PM »
It is likely when karma reviews are allowed again that the opening up will be tiered by karma level, simply for workload considerations.  It is unlikely we will allow karma reviews before the spendable karma system is operational.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 441
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2018, 05:06:52 PM »
I thought it was recently fixed, no? If not, at risk of sounding pushy to staff, let's focus on ironing out those kinks and get 0 karma players their chance to get their reviews. I hope we are not still waiting for the final release of the new guild system. The karma moratorium was not meant to last more than a few weeks according to the original post.

I know I sound bitchy and demanding -- I know staff are doing a lot of amazing things and no problem is easily fixed -- but I'm saddened by hearing about new players considering leaving due to this, and I think we can go a long way towards retaining these people just with this simple change.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 552
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2018, 09:38:08 PM »
Roughly half of us have had options removed by the karma re-balancing, myself included.

It felt bad, but I guess it's only temporary. I see no point allowing 0 karma players to special app. We should all be allowed, or none of us should.
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stoicreader

  • Posts: 109
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2018, 10:37:04 PM »
I'm going to log on in a few days when all the fun for my son's 2nd birthday is over and create a request for retirement of my PC and say goodbye to Armageddon.

The staff has been absolutely wonderful, and helpful, and sweet. Reiv was the biggest jerk, but that's okay, he's weird. The helpers were EXTREMELY healpful. I love the helpers. They really made this game possible for me. Syntax is tricky.

But its clear I have no future in this game. That fact that I'm not trusted after all this time, but other folks, (some obviously terrible RPers) get HGs and Gems, and Riposte; it's a complete disappointment. I played in my clan with a member who used riposte, a skill I'll probably never have the Karma to use. I'm just so sad at the lack of emotes from this person who has the staff trust that Ill never achieve. But I get it, great RP doesn't demand great emoting.

I never PKed, I never abused code,  get deep into my character and imagine their quickened breath burn as they run through HOT desert sands. And after 1 year I can't make a game breaking apothecary... It feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

This post made me realize I'm wasting my time. If I'm going to solo RP, I might as well write fantasy on my own. Maybe the fictional story of Reyna, the young orphan who becomes the female commander of a fleat of Rome's greatest merchants who traveled from the Orient to the Americas and explored the world. The stories of their adventures lost when the libraries of Alexandria were destroyed in the fires following the fall of Rome. She would have an affair with Emperor Marcus, fall in love with the world famous doctor from China, Zhang Zhong Jing, and I'll maybe have it end in betrayal by the highest members of the Senate, jealous of the advancement and elevation of Seneca, their chief competitor, who ultimately does nothing to save her.

If anything changes in this game, feel free to email me. Stoicreader@gmail.com
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Rahnevyn

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  • Posts: 962
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2018, 12:26:53 AM »
You can use riposte without actually having the skill. Having it or not has no bearing on a player's karma status.

Special apps are also not restricted to players with karma. If you like, you can special app for one-karma guilds and subguilds as a new player; many players do.

If you see behavior by other players that you believe is sub-par roleplaying, the thing to do is file a player complaint and let staff investigate.

The first karma point is traditionally awarded for longevity, and is evaluated on both cumulative playtime as well as account age. Playtime is measured in days played, both on a single character and across all characters. There's currently no official threshold, but for accounts below 10 days cumulative playtime, I would suggest playing more roles before expecting karma.
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Tiktak

  • Posts: 434
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2018, 01:34:27 AM »
I'm going to log on in a few days when all the fun for my son's 2nd birthday is over and create a request for retirement of my PC and say goodbye to Armageddon.

The staff has been absolutely wonderful, and helpful, and sweet. Reiv was the biggest jerk, but that's okay, he's weird. The helpers were EXTREMELY healpful. I love the helpers. They really made this game possible for me. Syntax is tricky.

But its clear I have no future in this game. That fact that I'm not trusted after all this time, but other folks, (some obviously terrible RPers) get HGs and Gems, and Riposte; it's a complete disappointment. I played in my clan with a member who used riposte, a skill I'll probably never have the Karma to use. I'm just so sad at the lack of emotes from this person who has the staff trust that Ill never achieve. But I get it, great RP doesn't demand great emoting.

I never PKed, I never abused code,  get deep into my character and imagine their quickened breath burn as they run through HOT desert sands. And after 1 year I can't make a game breaking apothecary... It feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

This post made me realize I'm wasting my time. If I'm going to solo RP, I might as well write fantasy on my own. Maybe the fictional story of Reyna, the young orphan who becomes the female commander of a fleat of Rome's greatest merchants who traveled from the Orient to the Americas and explored the world. The stories of their adventures lost when the libraries of Alexandria were destroyed in the fires following the fall of Rome. She would have an affair with Emperor Marcus, fall in love with the world famous doctor from China, Zhang Zhong Jing, and I'll maybe have it end in betrayal by the highest members of the Senate, jealous of the advancement and elevation of Seneca, their chief competitor, who ultimately does nothing to save her.

If anything changes in this game, feel free to email me. Stoicreader@gmail.com

Unfortunately, leaving will not be the catalyst for change. If you want change, be a voice, offer constructive criticism, and keep at it. The fight for karma has been an ongoing battle for many years and it will continue to be so as long as it is remains an unbalanced economic structure which has created huge inequalities in the playerbase. It rewards some, neglects others and your growth is dependent on Staff decisions.

Cind

  • Posts: 1451
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2018, 03:06:26 AM »
New System:

After 1 month, all players get one karma.

After one more month, all players get another karma. This continues with a cap of 3 total for each player for each month. Karma expenditure will drop the karma down to whatever the current level would be. Staff has a cap on how many non-mundanes of each type can be in the game, I dunno if this is really a good thing, as a gemmed witch I would have killed to have more witches to talk to.

Code will be in place if staff have determined that someone can't be trusted with a certain karma cap.

You know, like in the old days, before I started playing. Everyone was playing Shadowwalkers or some junk. I really miss a particular type of witch I used to be able to play, and it was actually not that useful to go on mass killings with, so I wasn't really sure it should have been high karma.

Man, but you guys sure miss the other witches. I guess I do too, even though I wasn't 2 karma long enough to do much with them.
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Inky

  • Posts: 159
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2018, 04:15:46 AM »
I think this is a good idea and I think that if staff wanted to bottleneck a request for workload, they should look at special applications and just easily reducing them to one a year.

MarshallDFX

  • Posts: 1529
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2018, 06:31:42 AM »
Karma accumulation should be automatic on days played.  If there are concerns about abuse or poor RP staff hand out a karma cap for a period of time, like they might a ban.

I haven't seen an argument if favour of the current karma system that doesn't reduce to self aggrandizement or protectionism.