Brainstorm for "Final Result" input

[Lizzie]

Well since only two people chose to pay any attention to the topic of this thread, and clearly no one else gives a shit about the topic and would prefer to turn this into yet another "I hate the changes" thread...
I'll just delete my ideas. If the staff wants them, I'm happy to send them over via request tool.

Pretend the name for this thread isn't "Brainstorm for the "Final Result" input" and instead, it's "Yet another I hate the changes" thread.

[Lizzie]

See above.

[Kryos]

Looking at things from a game design/enjoyment perspective, I do not agree with every sub point of what you've said, Lizzie.  I can say that the overall intention and basic premise is something I think would be a large upgrade to the current behavior.

Edit:  AM post fixing, phraseology Kryos, phraseology.

[whitt]

I would love a char gen that had
A: choose race, get racial skills and caps
B: choose primary subguild, get subguild skills with "max" caps
C: choose secondary subguild, get subguild skills with "high" caps
D: choose tertiary subguild, get subguild skills with "current sub" caps

The combinations would be awesome!

[Lancer]

If we're talking brainstorms for char gen options that we'd love to see, I'll go ahead and chime in with a brain dump that I've been chewing on since the elementalist change announcement. Sorry in advance for the length of the post, and if this is threadjackish please feel free to relocate:

• Leave the current guild/subguild options in place as 'standard template' character options. (Potentially add main guild elementalists back in as Elemental Savants, but that's another discussion that's already been running around)
• Add an option for advanced character creation into the new character process.
• Advanced character creation starts with no skills, and a pool of skill buy points. Older characters could start with some amount more skill buy points than younger characters to indicate their greater overall experience. Somewhat balances out, because the younger characters have longer that they can be in-game actively affecting the game world.
• Every skill has a base point cost for novice proficiency. Different skills would be weighted with varying costs to unlock. Every mastery rank (apprentice/journeyman/advanced/master, maybe add grandmaster for highest skill level) adds to that point cost. Mastery cost increase wouldn't have to be linear, either.
• Increasing Karma levels would unlock Elementalist purchase options as is already the case with our current subguild system. To prevent revealing specific spells or cherry picking a magickal arsenal, the aspects (touched or otherwise) could be added as mirrors of the current subguilds, at an appropriately heftier cost than single skills. If a player wants to have a character with a greater overall magickal aptitude for their chosen element, they can buy more than one aspect but be similarly handicapped in other areas.

Pros:

• People that didn't want to customize their character wouldn't have to. We've got a broad selection of guilds and subguilds that have been servicing the game world admirably overall for a very long time. If players wanted to continue using them, there wouldn't be anything stopping that.
• It gives players the opportunity to define their character as an individual, both in background and in future potential, to a level that we currently don't have. I've seen remarks about the elementalist subguild changes being something to help magickers be people first and magickers second. In that same vein, it's always struck me a little odd that all people of the same guild are going to be skilled in the exact same skills up to the exact same maximum potential, no matter how drastically different their concepts may be. I was going to include a number of examples, but I figure everyone's got a few floating around in their heads already.
• It would potentially replace and expand upon skill-based special applications. It's been my understanding that skill-related special applications could be accepted, but the more complicated or expansive the changes, the less likely it would be to get approval. Character generation through this method could be as unique as any player would like, and all fall within an established capability range by having standardized point pools.
• It could encompass more than basic skills. Things like languages, increased language learning/booze burning proficiences (of bards and mercenaries respectively), or even food foraging or wilderness quit could potentially be wrapped into purchasable options.

Cons:

• It would take involvement to implement. However, at least the logic for the majority of it wouldn't be terribly difficult - I could do most of the psuedocode in Java off the top of my head (sorry for anyone who doesn't like the language reference, I use it at work).
• Coming to a consensus on what weights to apply to different skills/proficiencies would probably take a while. Though, if anything ever happened in the game world to suggest things needed to change, I would imagine that adjusting weights to individual skills would be a lot more streamlined than potentially revamping entire guild skill lists.
• The amount of options or configuration possibilities could overwhelm new players (or potentially even veterans). Probably something best gated on new accounts with less than either a certain amount of time played or under so many characters. Could have a request tool option to unlock it on the account outside of those defaults for unique cases.
• Checking over a list of customized skills could be cumbersome for approving apps. I'm not really even certain it would need to be done, as I don't see a problem with a guild_ranger being an aide or a guild_assassin being a guard.
  
  But if it did.. to simplify the process, skills could be grouped into categories similar to how they are currently under the in game skills command, and the application could include a summary listing total number of skills purchased and total number of points spent in each category. Then it could become a lot easier at a glance to spot the character whose background/written concept doesn't mesh with codedly selected aptitudes. Though, if the creation process was abused, it would be easy enough to remove as an option from a player.

I would offer to help with either the logic or the point listings if anything like this were actually ever considered. I doubt both that anything like this would truly happen or that the offer would be taken up, but either way had to mention it. Regardless, just wanted to share what's been rolling around in my head.. now I can go back to lurking and working. Thanks!

[evilcabbage]

so everybody gets every mundane skill.

how do we determine who is good at what, lizzie?

[Coat of Arms]

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing. It's presented as a way to determine who's good enough at roleplaying to portray the more complex races, and responsible enough to wield the classes that can be bad for the game in the wrong hands. But these days, it mostly just seems like a way to buy a more effective character. It's like any pretense of it being for the game's well-being is gone, it's just a kind of premium mode. Surely the ability to select, say, warrior + rogue isn't really a matter of whether or not the person will abuse the power. It's just a way to let someone with that amount of karma enjoy higher privileges. It's a luxury mode, your characters simply get to be superior to that of someone without karma.

Elementalists were different, though. They were special and played in a unique way. You could actually tell why karma played into it. A mage wasn't just a warrior who gets to give himself +5 strength when he likes, it was a difficult role and one that took experience and responsibility. You had to play mages in a way that stood apart from the mundane world, both socially and mechanically. It made sense that a mage was frighteningly powerful as they had to be in order to survive, and consequently existed in a world of their own. That world sometimes crossed over with the rest of the population when they met, but it wasn't a real overlap. You could see how it was necessary to ensure that such characters were played by trusted and responsible players, as well as players who could create roleplay under these more difficult conditions. There was a reason for the karma requirment.

Now, though? Now it feels like that's gone, because elementalists are no longer special characters who have to have that kind of power due to needing it in order to survive. They aren't vulnerable to anything, they aren't difficult to play, they aren't volatile power batteries. They're just warriors and rangers and whatnot, with a few spells. They're mundanes who get to be more effective, and karma is reduced to a premium mode with which you can buy a warrior who can make himself hit harder than anyone else's warrior. It's not an outcast wizard who could lay waste to the countryside but has no place in decent society and thus requires a responsible, self-sufficient player behind the wheel. It's just Epic Warrior.

I think this whole "if you have enough karma, you can buy this and that set of skills" is deeply flawed and conflicts with the supposed purpose of karma. It creates a hierarchy of privileges, players who are simply allowed to make more valuable characters as opposed to given the option of playing different archetypes whose difficult role is tempered by powerful abilities that both make the role possible and give it substance. Gone, it seems, are the days where you're on equal footing with everyone else until you want to tackle those challenging roles where you're not supposed to be on equal footing, and where the power is a necessary feature of the role.

I don't want to see even more tiered options that seem to be tiered just for the sake of making it more cushy to have more karma. It's becoming a game of "you must be this tall to have that skill." Funnily enough, those with karma always seem to think it's excellent that having karma means you get to have superior characters. It's awful for new player retention, however, and makes the game less appealing to return to for players who can't return to a bunch of karma points. I want to see a game where the restricted options are options that you don't have to care about, options that are restricted because they're difficult and unusual and require serious responsibility to wield. Races work well like that; having 3 karma gives you access to a half-giant, but that doesn't just mean that all of your future warriors are better because they can now have mega-strength. It means you get the option of taking on a very unique role whose benefits are counterbalanced by obvious disadvantages, challenges and restrictions that make it important that it's only available to players who qualify.

And that just doesn't feel like it's there with the extended subguilds, even the magick ones, and especially the mundane ones that contain absolutely no pretense of being limited due to difficulty or the need for a responsible player. So, I vote heartily no to any system that makes it even more a game of karma. I want it so that when I try to get one of my buddies to play Armageddon, his human warrior has all the same potential as my human warrior. I don't want to have to tell him that since he doesn't have Karma Coins with which to buy a better character, he has to make do with the Free-to-Play options which are at the bottom of the ladder. Because that's why my last two attempts at getting friends to play have failed.

[Lizzie]

so everybody gets every mundane skill.

how do we determine who is good at what, lizzie?

Everyone would get every mundane skill *capped at novice or apprentice*.
None of that would involve branching.

The newly-named Skillsets that they choose would determine who is good at what.

Since now instead of a guild/subguild, they would be picking a minimum of two subguilds (that are reconfigured and re-named Skillsets).

[evilcabbage]

no thank you. needlessly overcomplicates things.

cabbages want simplification.

[Lizzie]

Coat of Arms and Cabbage please re-read my first post. This wasn't to critique each other's ideas. It's to post your own ideas. The system IS as it is. The staff has spoken. We DO have magick subguilds, whether we like it or not. My thread exists to explore what IS, and how to deal with it, and hopefully offer ideas for the staff to read, that might inspire them to do something pro-active with the system they've recently provided to us.

As I said - they haven't finished gutting the old system and replacing it with a new one.

That means we now have a chance to give them input, before the next announcement.

If you have ideas, post them. If you don't, post your critique in another thread.

[catchall]

This is by FAR the most important "useful idea" or "tidbit" posted in this thread:

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing. It's presented as a way to determine who's good enough at roleplaying to portray the more complex races, and responsible enough to wield the classes that can be bad for the game in the wrong hands. But these days, it mostly just seems like a way to buy a more effective character. It's like any pretense of it being for the game's well-being is gone, it's just a kind of premium mode. Surely the ability to select, say, warrior + rogue isn't really a matter of whether or not the person will abuse the power. It's just a way to let someone with that amount of karma enjoy higher privileges. It's a luxury mode, your characters simply get to be superior to that of someone without karma.

Elementalists were different, though. They were special and played in a unique way. You could actually tell why karma played into it. A mage wasn't just a warrior who gets to give himself +5 strength when he likes, it was a difficult role and one that took experience and responsibility. You had to play mages in a way that stood apart from the mundane world, both socially and mechanically. It made sense that a mage was frighteningly powerful as they had to be in order to survive, and consequently existed in a world of their own. That world sometimes crossed over with the rest of the population when they met, but it wasn't a real overlap. You could see how it was necessary to ensure that such characters were played by trusted and responsible players, as well as players who could create roleplay under these more difficult conditions. There was a reason for the karma requirment.

Now, though? Now it feels like that's gone, because elementalists are no longer special characters who have to have that kind of power due to needing it in order to survive. They aren't vulnerable to anything, they aren't difficult to play, they aren't volatile power batteries. They're just warriors and rangers and whatnot, with a few spells. They're mundanes who get to be more effective, and karma is reduced to a premium mode with which you can buy a warrior who can make himself hit harder than anyone else's warrior. It's not an outcast wizard who could lay waste to the countryside but has no place in decent society and thus requires a responsible, self-sufficient player behind the wheel. It's just Epic Warrior.

I think this whole "if you have enough karma, you can buy this and that set of skills" is deeply flawed and conflicts with the supposed purpose of karma. It creates a hierarchy of privileges, players who are simply allowed to make more valuable characters as opposed to given the option of playing different archetypes whose difficult role is tempered by powerful abilities that both make the role possible and give it substance. Gone, it seems, are the days where you're on equal footing with everyone else until you want to tackle those challenging roles where you're not supposed to be on equal footing, and where the power is a necessary feature of the role.

I don't want to see even more tiered options that seem to be tiered just for the sake of making it more cushy to have more karma. It's becoming a game of "you must be this tall to have that skill." Funnily enough, those with karma always seem to think it's excellent that having karma means you get to have superior characters. It's awful for new player retention, however, and makes the game less appealing to return to for players who can't return to a bunch of karma points. I want to see a game where the restricted options are options that you don't have to care about, options that are restricted because they're difficult and unusual and require serious responsibility to wield. Races work well like that; having 3 karma gives you access to a half-giant, but that doesn't just mean that all of your future warriors are better because they can now have mega-strength. It means you get the option of taking on a very unique role whose benefits are counterbalanced by obvious disadvantages, challenges and restrictions that make it important that it's only available to players who qualify.

And that just doesn't feel like it's there with the extended subguilds, even the magick ones, and especially the mundane ones that contain absolutely no pretense of being limited due to difficulty or the need for a responsible player. So, I vote heartily no to any system that makes it even more a game of karma. I want it so that when I try to get one of my buddies to play Armageddon, his human warrior has all the same potential as my human warrior. I don't want to have to tell him that since he doesn't have Karma Coins with which to buy a better character, he has to make do with the Free-to-Play options which are at the bottom of the ladder. Because that's why my last two attempts at getting friends to play have failed.

[Lizzie]

Catchall, all I read in that post is negativy, saying what he does NOT want to see, and how he does NOT like what's going on with karma, etc. I'm not seeing a single actual suggestion on what he DOES want to see going forward.

Again - this is not a thread to post your critiques. There are lots of threads already for that. This thread is where we post ideas and suggestions for what we DO want to see, going forward.

Another thread derailed - really pathetic, people. Everyone's whining (including myself) about the changes, and Lancer is the only other person willing to suggest new options for the new system before the staff hands down the "this has changed, effective your next login" announcement?

[Doublepalli]

This is by FAR the most important "useful idea" or "tidbit" posted in this thread:

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing. It's presented as a way to determine who's good enough at roleplaying to portray the more complex races, and responsible enough to wield the classes that can be bad for the game in the wrong hands. But these days, it mostly just seems like a way to buy a more effective character. It's like any pretense of it being for the game's well-being is gone, it's just a kind of premium mode. Surely the ability to select, say, warrior + rogue isn't really a matter of whether or not the person will abuse the power. It's just a way to let someone with that amount of karma enjoy higher privileges. It's a luxury mode, your characters simply get to be superior to that of someone without karma.

Elementalists were different, though. They were special and played in a unique way. You could actually tell why karma played into it. A mage wasn't just a warrior who gets to give himself +5 strength when he likes, it was a difficult role and one that took experience and responsibility. You had to play mages in a way that stood apart from the mundane world, both socially and mechanically. It made sense that a mage was frighteningly powerful as they had to be in order to survive, and consequently existed in a world of their own. That world sometimes crossed over with the rest of the population when they met, but it wasn't a real overlap. You could see how it was necessary to ensure that such characters were played by trusted and responsible players, as well as players who could create roleplay under these more difficult conditions. There was a reason for the karma requirment.

Now, though? Now it feels like that's gone, because elementalists are no longer special characters who have to have that kind of power due to needing it in order to survive. They aren't vulnerable to anything, they aren't difficult to play, they aren't volatile power batteries. They're just warriors and rangers and whatnot, with a few spells. They're mundanes who get to be more effective, and karma is reduced to a premium mode with which you can buy a warrior who can make himself hit harder than anyone else's warrior. It's not an outcast wizard who could lay waste to the countryside but has no place in decent society and thus requires a responsible, self-sufficient player behind the wheel. It's just Epic Warrior.

I think this whole "if you have enough karma, you can buy this and that set of skills" is deeply flawed and conflicts with the supposed purpose of karma. It creates a hierarchy of privileges, players who are simply allowed to make more valuable characters as opposed to given the option of playing different archetypes whose difficult role is tempered by powerful abilities that both make the role possible and give it substance. Gone, it seems, are the days where you're on equal footing with everyone else until you want to tackle those challenging roles where you're not supposed to be on equal footing, and where the power is a necessary feature of the role.

I don't want to see even more tiered options that seem to be tiered just for the sake of making it more cushy to have more karma. It's becoming a game of "you must be this tall to have that skill." Funnily enough, those with karma always seem to think it's excellent that having karma means you get to have superior characters. It's awful for new player retention, however, and makes the game less appealing to return to for players who can't return to a bunch of karma points. I want to see a game where the restricted options are options that you don't have to care about, options that are restricted because they're difficult and unusual and require serious responsibility to wield. Races work well like that; having 3 karma gives you access to a half-giant, but that doesn't just mean that all of your future warriors are better because they can now have mega-strength. It means you get the option of taking on a very unique role whose benefits are counterbalanced by obvious disadvantages, challenges and restrictions that make it important that it's only available to players who qualify.

And that just doesn't feel like it's there with the extended subguilds, even the magick ones, and especially the mundane ones that contain absolutely no pretense of being limited due to difficulty or the need for a responsible player. So, I vote heartily no to any system that makes it even more a game of karma. I want it so that when I try to get one of my buddies to play Armageddon, his human warrior has all the same potential as my human warrior. I don't want to have to tell him that since he doesn't have Karma Coins with which to buy a better character, he has to make do with the Free-to-Play options which are at the bottom of the ladder. Because that's why my last two attempts at getting friends to play have failed.

This right here is perfect. For the player who's been wanting to play multiple classes that required karma, and sits there, twiddling their thumbs until the day they finally have enough karma to play it - only to have everything removed. Now I'll never get to experience alot of what I've been waiting YEARS to be allowed to play. So now my mundane character that I've spent more than a RL year on, will simply be outclassed by people who have karma, and i'm stuck twiddling my thumbs again. No karma really for anything to play other than mundanes - oh, my ultimately inferior mundanes. >_>, I don't know, we'll see how it goes. I'll give this a shot at least, even though -I- don't even get to really experience it. It's very morale crushing when you wait, and wait, and play, and play, try and contribute to the game world, when you wait for RL years to be able to play what you wanna play, and now all of it is gone, and all the future pcs I get to play, are simply crappier.

[Asmoth]

I'm all for changing things up, I think some of the suggestions like what's in this post and in the Tuluk thread are genius.

However, I have a feeling nobody but Nessalin can know how difficult it would be to make any of these a reality.

So unfortunately, I feel these are going to be great "What ifs" but little else.

[hyzhenhok]

Not a fan of the premise that magicker characters are now "just more powerful mundanes."

[Asmoth]

Not a fan of the premise that magicker characters are now "just more powerful mundanes."

Depends on the definition of power, crafting definitely not, social, again not unless they are great at hiding.

If you're talking pvp and you have two equally trained melee characters but one throws fireballs, yeah probably more powerful.

But as Armageddon has proved time and time again, just because you're a thirty day warrior doesn't mean you can't die to a poisoned dagger and a backstab.

[Lizzie]

Looking at things from a game design/enjoyment perspective, I do not agree with every sub point of what you've said, Lizzie.  I can say that the overall intention and basic premise is something I think would be a large upgrade to the current behavior.

Edit:  AM post fixing, phraseology Kryos, phraseology.

So Kyros, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

[Lizzie]

Not a fan of the premise that magicker characters are now "just more powerful mundanes."

So hyzenhok, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

[Lizzie]

This is by FAR the most important "useful idea" or "tidbit" posted in this thread:

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing. It's presented as a way to determine who's good enough at roleplaying to portray the more complex races, and responsible enough to wield the classes that can be bad for the game in the wrong hands. But these days, it mostly just seems like a way to buy a more effective character. It's like any pretense of it being for the game's well-being is gone, it's just a kind of premium mode. Surely the ability to select, say, warrior + rogue isn't really a matter of whether or not the person will abuse the power. It's just a way to let someone with that amount of karma enjoy higher privileges. It's a luxury mode, your characters simply get to be superior to that of someone without karma.

Elementalists were different, though. They were special and played in a unique way. You could actually tell why karma played into it. A mage wasn't just a warrior who gets to give himself +5 strength when he likes, it was a difficult role and one that took experience and responsibility. You had to play mages in a way that stood apart from the mundane world, both socially and mechanically. It made sense that a mage was frighteningly powerful as they had to be in order to survive, and consequently existed in a world of their own. That world sometimes crossed over with the rest of the population when they met, but it wasn't a real overlap. You could see how it was necessary to ensure that such characters were played by trusted and responsible players, as well as players who could create roleplay under these more difficult conditions. There was a reason for the karma requirment.

Now, though? Now it feels like that's gone, because elementalists are no longer special characters who have to have that kind of power due to needing it in order to survive. They aren't vulnerable to anything, they aren't difficult to play, they aren't volatile power batteries. They're just warriors and rangers and whatnot, with a few spells. They're mundanes who get to be more effective, and karma is reduced to a premium mode with which you can buy a warrior who can make himself hit harder than anyone else's warrior. It's not an outcast wizard who could lay waste to the countryside but has no place in decent society and thus requires a responsible, self-sufficient player behind the wheel. It's just Epic Warrior.

I think this whole "if you have enough karma, you can buy this and that set of skills" is deeply flawed and conflicts with the supposed purpose of karma. It creates a hierarchy of privileges, players who are simply allowed to make more valuable characters as opposed to given the option of playing different archetypes whose difficult role is tempered by powerful abilities that both make the role possible and give it substance. Gone, it seems, are the days where you're on equal footing with everyone else until you want to tackle those challenging roles where you're not supposed to be on equal footing, and where the power is a necessary feature of the role.

I don't want to see even more tiered options that seem to be tiered just for the sake of making it more cushy to have more karma. It's becoming a game of "you must be this tall to have that skill." Funnily enough, those with karma always seem to think it's excellent that having karma means you get to have superior characters. It's awful for new player retention, however, and makes the game less appealing to return to for players who can't return to a bunch of karma points. I want to see a game where the restricted options are options that you don't have to care about, options that are restricted because they're difficult and unusual and require serious responsibility to wield. Races work well like that; having 3 karma gives you access to a half-giant, but that doesn't just mean that all of your future warriors are better because they can now have mega-strength. It means you get the option of taking on a very unique role whose benefits are counterbalanced by obvious disadvantages, challenges and restrictions that make it important that it's only available to players who qualify.

And that just doesn't feel like it's there with the extended subguilds, even the magick ones, and especially the mundane ones that contain absolutely no pretense of being limited due to difficulty or the need for a responsible player. So, I vote heartily no to any system that makes it even more a game of karma. I want it so that when I try to get one of my buddies to play Armageddon, his human warrior has all the same potential as my human warrior. I don't want to have to tell him that since he doesn't have Karma Coins with which to buy a better character, he has to make do with the Free-to-Play options which are at the bottom of the ladder. Because that's why my last two attempts at getting friends to play have failed.

This right here is perfect. For the player who's been wanting to play multiple classes that required karma, and sits there, twiddling their thumbs until the day they finally have enough karma to play it - only to have everything removed. Now I'll never get to experience alot of what I've been waiting YEARS to be allowed to play. So now my mundane character that I've spent more than a RL year on, will simply be outclassed by people who have karma, and i'm stuck twiddling my thumbs again. No karma really for anything to play other than mundanes - oh, my ultimately inferior mundanes. >_>, I don't know, we'll see how it goes. I'll give this a shot at least, even though -I- don't even get to really experience it. It's very morale crushing when you wait, and wait, and play, and play, try and contribute to the game world, when you wait for RL years to be able to play what you wanna play, and now all of it is gone, and all the future pcs I get to play, are simply crappier.

So, doublepalli, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

[Lizzie]

So, everyone else who has a criticism of what's happened so far, and wants the staff to consider player input, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

[Doublepalli]

So, everyone else who has a criticism of what's happened so far, and wants the staff to consider player input, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

I don't know. I've never played a mage before, I've never got to. All I know is everything that I've waited years for (only ever having been allowed to play mundanes), is now gone, and that my mundane guy feels vastly inferior now. (talk about a suckerpunch to my morale). I don't even know where to begin, whats the difference between these mages, and sorcerors? It's barely noticable from what it sounds like, but I've also never played a sorceror. *shrug*, The only thing I can suggest, is sit back, watch, and see how it progresses. Send in bugs, things that peak your interest, things that you think could contribute. I'm sorry for criticizing, but understand when you spend 4 RL years plotting and waiting only to have all that time spent wasted, my mood got a little sour. Staff - made a change, took a risk. At the end of the day, we need to respect them, and give them a chance.

[Lizzie]

So, everyone else who has a criticism of what's happened so far, and wants the staff to consider player input, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

I don't know. I've never played a mage before, I've never got to. All I know is everything that I've waited years for (only ever having been allowed to play mundanes), is now gone, and that my mundane guy feels vastly inferior now. (talk about a suckerpunch to my morale). I don't even know where to begin, whats the difference between these mages, and sorcerors? It's barely noticable from what it sounds like, but I've also never played a sorceror. *shrug*, The only thing I can suggest, is sit back, watch, and see how it progresses. Send in bugs, things that peak your interest, things that you think could contribute. I'm sorry for criticizing, but understand when you spend 4 RL years plotting and waiting only to have all that time spent wasted, my mood got a little sour. Staff - made a change, took a risk. At the end of the day, we need to respect them, and give them a chance.

That's all well and good, but there are several threads that already exist for you to express your disappointment. I've posted in those as well, because I'm also disappointed. This thread - is not for that.

[Vwest]

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing.

I'm really coming up short on how to even express how much I back that post.

When I lamented to a friend of mine on Skype about not wanting to have to special application an extended subguild:

[REMOVED] REMOVED: try to be more supportive to staff on the forums
[REMOVED] REMOVED: and dont argue with them all the time
[REMOVED] Vwest: I'll stop arguing when they stop assuming the worst of every fucking thing I do.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: they dont give a shit what you think
[REMOVED] REMOVED: and ffs you mudsex way to many witches
[REMOVED] Vwest: You're just pissy I won't post the logs.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: REMOVED
[REMOVED] Vwest: LOL
[REMOVED] REMOVED: if you want more karma you need to give up some pride
[REMOVED] REMOVED: play some sponsored roles or take orders on a merchant house char
[REMOVED] REMOVED: i got all my karma for sponsored roles
[REMOVED] Vwest: I'm not really into social exclusive roles.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: theres a game beyond killing ppl and fucking witches all the time you know
[REMOVED] Vwest: Yeah, a boring one full of people that idle in the Gaj all day.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: the atrium is going strong and they always need kilelrs
[REMOVED] REMOVED: killers
[REMOVED] REMOVED: go pk for them and staff will give you karma for it
[REMOVED] Vwest: So, killing PCs for IC reasons = bad player.
[REMOVED] Vwest: But killing PCs for IC reasons because someone with a sponsored role said so = karma.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: basically
[REMOVED] REMOVED: its a shit system but if you want karma you have to play the game their way
[REMOVED] Vwest: I think I'd rather just complain about the system and stick to special apps.
[REMOVED] Vwest: And keep mudsexing witches, constantly.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: probably doing it right now
[REMOVED] Vwest: It's possible.
[REMOVED] Vwest: Even probable!
[REMOVED] REMOVED: have fun with one karma forever
[REMOVED] Vwest: How many points do you have, now?
[REMOVED] REMOVED: got my REMOVED some weeks ago
[REMOVED] Vwest: And how long have you been playing Arm?
[REMOVED] REMOVED: REMOVED
[REMOVED] Vwest: So you spent REMOVED kissing ass and playing roles that bore you... for REMOVED points of karma.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: they arent always boring
[REMOVED] REMOVED: i get to see what everyone is doing and know whats going on
[REMOVED] Vwest: Right, so you get to see and hear about all the cool shit I'm doing while taking orders for glamour pantsu.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: someone has to take the pantsu orders
[REMOVED] REMOVED: those orders get me karma
[REMOVED] REMOVED: and i can make a char with that karma that could kill yours np
[REMOVED] Vwest: REMOVED
[REMOVED] REMOVED: REMOVED
[REMOVED] REMOVED: l2anatomy bitch
[REMOVED] Vwest: Japan has my back, so fuck you. I'm going to bed.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: dream of karma you will never have killer queen
[REMOVED] REMOVED: gl not dying to all the super saiyan krathi warriors
[REMOVED] REMOVED: REMOVED
[REMOVED] Vwest: I am ranger.
[REMOVED] Vwest: I will kill them all.
[REMOVED] Vwest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HmQNkcAhgg
[REMOVED] Vwest: SLEEP!

I don't necessarily have a problem with the changes themselves, but rather the with growing chasm in power for the sake of power between karma and non-karma players.

No karma was never really an issue for me beyond the annoyance of having to use the request tool to get access to things. You could still be competitive as a no karma player because the hard coded negatives of having powerful magick meant you had your own coded edge. You couldn't throw down a demonfire or super size your endurance, but you could exploit stealth for surprise or the resilience of never needing mana to fuel your attacks.

Rock-paper-scissors, in other words.

These changes mark a step away from the vague sense of balance offered by the rock-paper-scissors guild system. There is no longer a coded trade-off to having magick powers, it is pure, hard coded win. You get every benefit a non-karma player is granted, plus you get more on top without having any real detriment beyond 'people might not like you as much, maybe'.

It isn't like a mul or a desert elf, where there are hard limitations enforced by code and staff.

There is no down side to these guild-based spikes in power, as they exist for the singular purpose of giving advantage to favored players. There is no story or flavor benefit in having Outdoorsman over Hunter, for example. They both infer a history or future potential in the same general skillset, except one gives you a massive coded edge over the other. It won't make your characters story richer, it won't give your more pizazz.

It's pure, unmitigated power spike because staff like you.

[Beethoven]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50905.0.html

I made a thread for the karma discussion. I'm not a mod so I can't move anyone's comments, but maybe someone could look into that?

[BadSkeelz]

Extended subguilds should be the new basic subguilds because they let characters have fuller and more fleshed out skill sets, instead of a pc who can do one thing well and a few things shitilly.

The karma discussion is an interesting one but probably deserving of its own thread. For what it's worth, I've found respecting the virtual world to be the best path to karma. Assuming that the one karma point I got for leadership right after leading my clan into a spider nest was more of a joke than anything

Edit: thanks Beethoven. I'll move my post over when I get home.