Brainstorm for "Final Result" input

[Lizzie]

Well since only two people chose to pay any attention to the topic of this thread, and clearly no one else gives a shit about the topic and would prefer to turn this into yet another "I hate the changes" thread...
I'll just delete my ideas. If the staff wants them, I'm happy to send them over via request tool.

Pretend the name for this thread isn't "Brainstorm for the "Final Result" input" and instead, it's "Yet another I hate the changes" thread.

[Lizzie]

See above.

[Kryos]

Looking at things from a game design/enjoyment perspective, I do not agree with every sub point of what you've said, Lizzie.  I can say that the overall intention and basic premise is something I think would be a large upgrade to the current behavior.

Edit:  AM post fixing, phraseology Kryos, phraseology.

[whitt]

I would love a char gen that had
A: choose race, get racial skills and caps
B: choose primary subguild, get subguild skills with "max" caps
C: choose secondary subguild, get subguild skills with "high" caps
D: choose tertiary subguild, get subguild skills with "current sub" caps

The combinations would be awesome!

[Lancer]

If we're talking brainstorms for char gen options that we'd love to see, I'll go ahead and chime in with a brain dump that I've been chewing on since the elementalist change announcement. Sorry in advance for the length of the post, and if this is threadjackish please feel free to relocate:

• Leave the current guild/subguild options in place as 'standard template' character options. (Potentially add main guild elementalists back in as Elemental Savants, but that's another discussion that's already been running around)
• Add an option for advanced character creation into the new character process.
• Advanced character creation starts with no skills, and a pool of skill buy points. Older characters could start with some amount more skill buy points than younger characters to indicate their greater overall experience. Somewhat balances out, because the younger characters have longer that they can be in-game actively affecting the game world.
• Every skill has a base point cost for novice proficiency. Different skills would be weighted with varying costs to unlock. Every mastery rank (apprentice/journeyman/advanced/master, maybe add grandmaster for highest skill level) adds to that point cost. Mastery cost increase wouldn't have to be linear, either.
• Increasing Karma levels would unlock Elementalist purchase options as is already the case with our current subguild system. To prevent revealing specific spells or cherry picking a magickal arsenal, the aspects (touched or otherwise) could be added as mirrors of the current subguilds, at an appropriately heftier cost than single skills. If a player wants to have a character with a greater overall magickal aptitude for their chosen element, they can buy more than one aspect but be similarly handicapped in other areas.

Pros:

• People that didn't want to customize their character wouldn't have to. We've got a broad selection of guilds and subguilds that have been servicing the game world admirably overall for a very long time. If players wanted to continue using them, there wouldn't be anything stopping that.
• It gives players the opportunity to define their character as an individual, both in background and in future potential, to a level that we currently don't have. I've seen remarks about the elementalist subguild changes being something to help magickers be people first and magickers second. In that same vein, it's always struck me a little odd that all people of the same guild are going to be skilled in the exact same skills up to the exact same maximum potential, no matter how drastically different their concepts may be. I was going to include a number of examples, but I figure everyone's got a few floating around in their heads already.
• It would potentially replace and expand upon skill-based special applications. It's been my understanding that skill-related special applications could be accepted, but the more complicated or expansive the changes, the less likely it would be to get approval. Character generation through this method could be as unique as any player would like, and all fall within an established capability range by having standardized point pools.
• It could encompass more than basic skills. Things like languages, increased language learning/booze burning proficiences (of bards and mercenaries respectively), or even food foraging or wilderness quit could potentially be wrapped into purchasable options.

Cons:

• It would take involvement to implement. However, at least the logic for the majority of it wouldn't be terribly difficult - I could do most of the psuedocode in Java off the top of my head (sorry for anyone who doesn't like the language reference, I use it at work).
• Coming to a consensus on what weights to apply to different skills/proficiencies would probably take a while. Though, if anything ever happened in the game world to suggest things needed to change, I would imagine that adjusting weights to individual skills would be a lot more streamlined than potentially revamping entire guild skill lists.
• The amount of options or configuration possibilities could overwhelm new players (or potentially even veterans). Probably something best gated on new accounts with less than either a certain amount of time played or under so many characters. Could have a request tool option to unlock it on the account outside of those defaults for unique cases.
• Checking over a list of customized skills could be cumbersome for approving apps. I'm not really even certain it would need to be done, as I don't see a problem with a guild_ranger being an aide or a guild_assassin being a guard.
  
  But if it did.. to simplify the process, skills could be grouped into categories similar to how they are currently under the in game skills command, and the application could include a summary listing total number of skills purchased and total number of points spent in each category. Then it could become a lot easier at a glance to spot the character whose background/written concept doesn't mesh with codedly selected aptitudes. Though, if the creation process was abused, it would be easy enough to remove as an option from a player.

I would offer to help with either the logic or the point listings if anything like this were actually ever considered. I doubt both that anything like this would truly happen or that the offer would be taken up, but either way had to mention it. Regardless, just wanted to share what's been rolling around in my head.. now I can go back to lurking and working. Thanks!

[evilcabbage]

so everybody gets every mundane skill.

how do we determine who is good at what, lizzie?

[Coat of Arms]

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing. It's presented as a way to determine who's good enough at roleplaying to portray the more complex races, and responsible enough to wield the classes that can be bad for the game in the wrong hands. But these days, it mostly just seems like a way to buy a more effective character. It's like any pretense of it being for the game's well-being is gone, it's just a kind of premium mode. Surely the ability to select, say, warrior + rogue isn't really a matter of whether or not the person will abuse the power. It's just a way to let someone with that amount of karma enjoy higher privileges. It's a luxury mode, your characters simply get to be superior to that of someone without karma.

Elementalists were different, though. They were special and played in a unique way. You could actually tell why karma played into it. A mage wasn't just a warrior who gets to give himself +5 strength when he likes, it was a difficult role and one that took experience and responsibility. You had to play mages in a way that stood apart from the mundane world, both socially and mechanically. It made sense that a mage was frighteningly powerful as they had to be in order to survive, and consequently existed in a world of their own. That world sometimes crossed over with the rest of the population when they met, but it wasn't a real overlap. You could see how it was necessary to ensure that such characters were played by trusted and responsible players, as well as players who could create roleplay under these more difficult conditions. There was a reason for the karma requirment.

Now, though? Now it feels like that's gone, because elementalists are no longer special characters who have to have that kind of power due to needing it in order to survive. They aren't vulnerable to anything, they aren't difficult to play, they aren't volatile power batteries. They're just warriors and rangers and whatnot, with a few spells. They're mundanes who get to be more effective, and karma is reduced to a premium mode with which you can buy a warrior who can make himself hit harder than anyone else's warrior. It's not an outcast wizard who could lay waste to the countryside but has no place in decent society and thus requires a responsible, self-sufficient player behind the wheel. It's just Epic Warrior.

I think this whole "if you have enough karma, you can buy this and that set of skills" is deeply flawed and conflicts with the supposed purpose of karma. It creates a hierarchy of privileges, players who are simply allowed to make more valuable characters as opposed to given the option of playing different archetypes whose difficult role is tempered by powerful abilities that both make the role possible and give it substance. Gone, it seems, are the days where you're on equal footing with everyone else until you want to tackle those challenging roles where you're not supposed to be on equal footing, and where the power is a necessary feature of the role.

I don't want to see even more tiered options that seem to be tiered just for the sake of making it more cushy to have more karma. It's becoming a game of "you must be this tall to have that skill." Funnily enough, those with karma always seem to think it's excellent that having karma means you get to have superior characters. It's awful for new player retention, however, and makes the game less appealing to return to for players who can't return to a bunch of karma points. I want to see a game where the restricted options are options that you don't have to care about, options that are restricted because they're difficult and unusual and require serious responsibility to wield. Races work well like that; having 3 karma gives you access to a half-giant, but that doesn't just mean that all of your future warriors are better because they can now have mega-strength. It means you get the option of taking on a very unique role whose benefits are counterbalanced by obvious disadvantages, challenges and restrictions that make it important that it's only available to players who qualify.

And that just doesn't feel like it's there with the extended subguilds, even the magick ones, and especially the mundane ones that contain absolutely no pretense of being limited due to difficulty or the need for a responsible player. So, I vote heartily no to any system that makes it even more a game of karma. I want it so that when I try to get one of my buddies to play Armageddon, his human warrior has all the same potential as my human warrior. I don't want to have to tell him that since he doesn't have Karma Coins with which to buy a better character, he has to make do with the Free-to-Play options which are at the bottom of the ladder. Because that's why my last two attempts at getting friends to play have failed.

[Lizzie]

so everybody gets every mundane skill.

how do we determine who is good at what, lizzie?

Everyone would get every mundane skill *capped at novice or apprentice*.
None of that would involve branching.

The newly-named Skillsets that they choose would determine who is good at what.

Since now instead of a guild/subguild, they would be picking a minimum of two subguilds (that are reconfigured and re-named Skillsets).

[evilcabbage]

no thank you. needlessly overcomplicates things.

cabbages want simplification.

[Lizzie]

Coat of Arms and Cabbage please re-read my first post. This wasn't to critique each other's ideas. It's to post your own ideas. The system IS as it is. The staff has spoken. We DO have magick subguilds, whether we like it or not. My thread exists to explore what IS, and how to deal with it, and hopefully offer ideas for the staff to read, that might inspire them to do something pro-active with the system they've recently provided to us.

As I said - they haven't finished gutting the old system and replacing it with a new one.

That means we now have a chance to give them input, before the next announcement.

If you have ideas, post them. If you don't, post your critique in another thread.

[catchall]

This is by FAR the most important "useful idea" or "tidbit" posted in this thread:

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing. It's presented as a way to determine who's good enough at roleplaying to portray the more complex races, and responsible enough to wield the classes that can be bad for the game in the wrong hands. But these days, it mostly just seems like a way to buy a more effective character. It's like any pretense of it being for the game's well-being is gone, it's just a kind of premium mode. Surely the ability to select, say, warrior + rogue isn't really a matter of whether or not the person will abuse the power. It's just a way to let someone with that amount of karma enjoy higher privileges. It's a luxury mode, your characters simply get to be superior to that of someone without karma.

Elementalists were different, though. They were special and played in a unique way. You could actually tell why karma played into it. A mage wasn't just a warrior who gets to give himself +5 strength when he likes, it was a difficult role and one that took experience and responsibility. You had to play mages in a way that stood apart from the mundane world, both socially and mechanically. It made sense that a mage was frighteningly powerful as they had to be in order to survive, and consequently existed in a world of their own. That world sometimes crossed over with the rest of the population when they met, but it wasn't a real overlap. You could see how it was necessary to ensure that such characters were played by trusted and responsible players, as well as players who could create roleplay under these more difficult conditions. There was a reason for the karma requirment.

Now, though? Now it feels like that's gone, because elementalists are no longer special characters who have to have that kind of power due to needing it in order to survive. They aren't vulnerable to anything, they aren't difficult to play, they aren't volatile power batteries. They're just warriors and rangers and whatnot, with a few spells. They're mundanes who get to be more effective, and karma is reduced to a premium mode with which you can buy a warrior who can make himself hit harder than anyone else's warrior. It's not an outcast wizard who could lay waste to the countryside but has no place in decent society and thus requires a responsible, self-sufficient player behind the wheel. It's just Epic Warrior.

I think this whole "if you have enough karma, you can buy this and that set of skills" is deeply flawed and conflicts with the supposed purpose of karma. It creates a hierarchy of privileges, players who are simply allowed to make more valuable characters as opposed to given the option of playing different archetypes whose difficult role is tempered by powerful abilities that both make the role possible and give it substance. Gone, it seems, are the days where you're on equal footing with everyone else until you want to tackle those challenging roles where you're not supposed to be on equal footing, and where the power is a necessary feature of the role.

I don't want to see even more tiered options that seem to be tiered just for the sake of making it more cushy to have more karma. It's becoming a game of "you must be this tall to have that skill." Funnily enough, those with karma always seem to think it's excellent that having karma means you get to have superior characters. It's awful for new player retention, however, and makes the game less appealing to return to for players who can't return to a bunch of karma points. I want to see a game where the restricted options are options that you don't have to care about, options that are restricted because they're difficult and unusual and require serious responsibility to wield. Races work well like that; having 3 karma gives you access to a half-giant, but that doesn't just mean that all of your future warriors are better because they can now have mega-strength. It means you get the option of taking on a very unique role whose benefits are counterbalanced by obvious disadvantages, challenges and restrictions that make it important that it's only available to players who qualify.

And that just doesn't feel like it's there with the extended subguilds, even the magick ones, and especially the mundane ones that contain absolutely no pretense of being limited due to difficulty or the need for a responsible player. So, I vote heartily no to any system that makes it even more a game of karma. I want it so that when I try to get one of my buddies to play Armageddon, his human warrior has all the same potential as my human warrior. I don't want to have to tell him that since he doesn't have Karma Coins with which to buy a better character, he has to make do with the Free-to-Play options which are at the bottom of the ladder. Because that's why my last two attempts at getting friends to play have failed.

[Lizzie]

Catchall, all I read in that post is negativy, saying what he does NOT want to see, and how he does NOT like what's going on with karma, etc. I'm not seeing a single actual suggestion on what he DOES want to see going forward.

Again - this is not a thread to post your critiques. There are lots of threads already for that. This thread is where we post ideas and suggestions for what we DO want to see, going forward.

Another thread derailed - really pathetic, people. Everyone's whining (including myself) about the changes, and Lancer is the only other person willing to suggest new options for the new system before the staff hands down the "this has changed, effective your next login" announcement?

[Doublepalli]

This is by FAR the most important "useful idea" or "tidbit" posted in this thread:

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing. It's presented as a way to determine who's good enough at roleplaying to portray the more complex races, and responsible enough to wield the classes that can be bad for the game in the wrong hands. But these days, it mostly just seems like a way to buy a more effective character. It's like any pretense of it being for the game's well-being is gone, it's just a kind of premium mode. Surely the ability to select, say, warrior + rogue isn't really a matter of whether or not the person will abuse the power. It's just a way to let someone with that amount of karma enjoy higher privileges. It's a luxury mode, your characters simply get to be superior to that of someone without karma.

Elementalists were different, though. They were special and played in a unique way. You could actually tell why karma played into it. A mage wasn't just a warrior who gets to give himself +5 strength when he likes, it was a difficult role and one that took experience and responsibility. You had to play mages in a way that stood apart from the mundane world, both socially and mechanically. It made sense that a mage was frighteningly powerful as they had to be in order to survive, and consequently existed in a world of their own. That world sometimes crossed over with the rest of the population when they met, but it wasn't a real overlap. You could see how it was necessary to ensure that such characters were played by trusted and responsible players, as well as players who could create roleplay under these more difficult conditions. There was a reason for the karma requirment.

Now, though? Now it feels like that's gone, because elementalists are no longer special characters who have to have that kind of power due to needing it in order to survive. They aren't vulnerable to anything, they aren't difficult to play, they aren't volatile power batteries. They're just warriors and rangers and whatnot, with a few spells. They're mundanes who get to be more effective, and karma is reduced to a premium mode with which you can buy a warrior who can make himself hit harder than anyone else's warrior. It's not an outcast wizard who could lay waste to the countryside but has no place in decent society and thus requires a responsible, self-sufficient player behind the wheel. It's just Epic Warrior.

I think this whole "if you have enough karma, you can buy this and that set of skills" is deeply flawed and conflicts with the supposed purpose of karma. It creates a hierarchy of privileges, players who are simply allowed to make more valuable characters as opposed to given the option of playing different archetypes whose difficult role is tempered by powerful abilities that both make the role possible and give it substance. Gone, it seems, are the days where you're on equal footing with everyone else until you want to tackle those challenging roles where you're not supposed to be on equal footing, and where the power is a necessary feature of the role.

I don't want to see even more tiered options that seem to be tiered just for the sake of making it more cushy to have more karma. It's becoming a game of "you must be this tall to have that skill." Funnily enough, those with karma always seem to think it's excellent that having karma means you get to have superior characters. It's awful for new player retention, however, and makes the game less appealing to return to for players who can't return to a bunch of karma points. I want to see a game where the restricted options are options that you don't have to care about, options that are restricted because they're difficult and unusual and require serious responsibility to wield. Races work well like that; having 3 karma gives you access to a half-giant, but that doesn't just mean that all of your future warriors are better because they can now have mega-strength. It means you get the option of taking on a very unique role whose benefits are counterbalanced by obvious disadvantages, challenges and restrictions that make it important that it's only available to players who qualify.

And that just doesn't feel like it's there with the extended subguilds, even the magick ones, and especially the mundane ones that contain absolutely no pretense of being limited due to difficulty or the need for a responsible player. So, I vote heartily no to any system that makes it even more a game of karma. I want it so that when I try to get one of my buddies to play Armageddon, his human warrior has all the same potential as my human warrior. I don't want to have to tell him that since he doesn't have Karma Coins with which to buy a better character, he has to make do with the Free-to-Play options which are at the bottom of the ladder. Because that's why my last two attempts at getting friends to play have failed.

This right here is perfect. For the player who's been wanting to play multiple classes that required karma, and sits there, twiddling their thumbs until the day they finally have enough karma to play it - only to have everything removed. Now I'll never get to experience alot of what I've been waiting YEARS to be allowed to play. So now my mundane character that I've spent more than a RL year on, will simply be outclassed by people who have karma, and i'm stuck twiddling my thumbs again. No karma really for anything to play other than mundanes - oh, my ultimately inferior mundanes. >_>, I don't know, we'll see how it goes. I'll give this a shot at least, even though -I- don't even get to really experience it. It's very morale crushing when you wait, and wait, and play, and play, try and contribute to the game world, when you wait for RL years to be able to play what you wanna play, and now all of it is gone, and all the future pcs I get to play, are simply crappier.

[Asmoth]

I'm all for changing things up, I think some of the suggestions like what's in this post and in the Tuluk thread are genius.

However, I have a feeling nobody but Nessalin can know how difficult it would be to make any of these a reality.

So unfortunately, I feel these are going to be great "What ifs" but little else.

[hyzhenhok]

Not a fan of the premise that magicker characters are now "just more powerful mundanes."

[Asmoth]

Not a fan of the premise that magicker characters are now "just more powerful mundanes."

Depends on the definition of power, crafting definitely not, social, again not unless they are great at hiding.

If you're talking pvp and you have two equally trained melee characters but one throws fireballs, yeah probably more powerful.

But as Armageddon has proved time and time again, just because you're a thirty day warrior doesn't mean you can't die to a poisoned dagger and a backstab.

[Lizzie]

Looking at things from a game design/enjoyment perspective, I do not agree with every sub point of what you've said, Lizzie.  I can say that the overall intention and basic premise is something I think would be a large upgrade to the current behavior.

Edit:  AM post fixing, phraseology Kryos, phraseology.

So Kyros, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

[Lizzie]

Not a fan of the premise that magicker characters are now "just more powerful mundanes."

So hyzenhok, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

[Lizzie]

This is by FAR the most important "useful idea" or "tidbit" posted in this thread:

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing. It's presented as a way to determine who's good enough at roleplaying to portray the more complex races, and responsible enough to wield the classes that can be bad for the game in the wrong hands. But these days, it mostly just seems like a way to buy a more effective character. It's like any pretense of it being for the game's well-being is gone, it's just a kind of premium mode. Surely the ability to select, say, warrior + rogue isn't really a matter of whether or not the person will abuse the power. It's just a way to let someone with that amount of karma enjoy higher privileges. It's a luxury mode, your characters simply get to be superior to that of someone without karma.

Elementalists were different, though. They were special and played in a unique way. You could actually tell why karma played into it. A mage wasn't just a warrior who gets to give himself +5 strength when he likes, it was a difficult role and one that took experience and responsibility. You had to play mages in a way that stood apart from the mundane world, both socially and mechanically. It made sense that a mage was frighteningly powerful as they had to be in order to survive, and consequently existed in a world of their own. That world sometimes crossed over with the rest of the population when they met, but it wasn't a real overlap. You could see how it was necessary to ensure that such characters were played by trusted and responsible players, as well as players who could create roleplay under these more difficult conditions. There was a reason for the karma requirment.

Now, though? Now it feels like that's gone, because elementalists are no longer special characters who have to have that kind of power due to needing it in order to survive. They aren't vulnerable to anything, they aren't difficult to play, they aren't volatile power batteries. They're just warriors and rangers and whatnot, with a few spells. They're mundanes who get to be more effective, and karma is reduced to a premium mode with which you can buy a warrior who can make himself hit harder than anyone else's warrior. It's not an outcast wizard who could lay waste to the countryside but has no place in decent society and thus requires a responsible, self-sufficient player behind the wheel. It's just Epic Warrior.

I think this whole "if you have enough karma, you can buy this and that set of skills" is deeply flawed and conflicts with the supposed purpose of karma. It creates a hierarchy of privileges, players who are simply allowed to make more valuable characters as opposed to given the option of playing different archetypes whose difficult role is tempered by powerful abilities that both make the role possible and give it substance. Gone, it seems, are the days where you're on equal footing with everyone else until you want to tackle those challenging roles where you're not supposed to be on equal footing, and where the power is a necessary feature of the role.

I don't want to see even more tiered options that seem to be tiered just for the sake of making it more cushy to have more karma. It's becoming a game of "you must be this tall to have that skill." Funnily enough, those with karma always seem to think it's excellent that having karma means you get to have superior characters. It's awful for new player retention, however, and makes the game less appealing to return to for players who can't return to a bunch of karma points. I want to see a game where the restricted options are options that you don't have to care about, options that are restricted because they're difficult and unusual and require serious responsibility to wield. Races work well like that; having 3 karma gives you access to a half-giant, but that doesn't just mean that all of your future warriors are better because they can now have mega-strength. It means you get the option of taking on a very unique role whose benefits are counterbalanced by obvious disadvantages, challenges and restrictions that make it important that it's only available to players who qualify.

And that just doesn't feel like it's there with the extended subguilds, even the magick ones, and especially the mundane ones that contain absolutely no pretense of being limited due to difficulty or the need for a responsible player. So, I vote heartily no to any system that makes it even more a game of karma. I want it so that when I try to get one of my buddies to play Armageddon, his human warrior has all the same potential as my human warrior. I don't want to have to tell him that since he doesn't have Karma Coins with which to buy a better character, he has to make do with the Free-to-Play options which are at the bottom of the ladder. Because that's why my last two attempts at getting friends to play have failed.

This right here is perfect. For the player who's been wanting to play multiple classes that required karma, and sits there, twiddling their thumbs until the day they finally have enough karma to play it - only to have everything removed. Now I'll never get to experience alot of what I've been waiting YEARS to be allowed to play. So now my mundane character that I've spent more than a RL year on, will simply be outclassed by people who have karma, and i'm stuck twiddling my thumbs again. No karma really for anything to play other than mundanes - oh, my ultimately inferior mundanes. >_>, I don't know, we'll see how it goes. I'll give this a shot at least, even though -I- don't even get to really experience it. It's very morale crushing when you wait, and wait, and play, and play, try and contribute to the game world, when you wait for RL years to be able to play what you wanna play, and now all of it is gone, and all the future pcs I get to play, are simply crappier.

So, doublepalli, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

[Lizzie]

So, everyone else who has a criticism of what's happened so far, and wants the staff to consider player input, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

[Doublepalli]

So, everyone else who has a criticism of what's happened so far, and wants the staff to consider player input, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

I don't know. I've never played a mage before, I've never got to. All I know is everything that I've waited years for (only ever having been allowed to play mundanes), is now gone, and that my mundane guy feels vastly inferior now. (talk about a suckerpunch to my morale). I don't even know where to begin, whats the difference between these mages, and sorcerors? It's barely noticable from what it sounds like, but I've also never played a sorceror. *shrug*, The only thing I can suggest, is sit back, watch, and see how it progresses. Send in bugs, things that peak your interest, things that you think could contribute. I'm sorry for criticizing, but understand when you spend 4 RL years plotting and waiting only to have all that time spent wasted, my mood got a little sour. Staff - made a change, took a risk. At the end of the day, we need to respect them, and give them a chance.

[Lizzie]

So, everyone else who has a criticism of what's happened so far, and wants the staff to consider player input, what do YOU suggest to round out the -current- changes that have already been implemented, to make for the -finished product- of the guild system that will appease your understanding of the game's theme?

I don't know. I've never played a mage before, I've never got to. All I know is everything that I've waited years for (only ever having been allowed to play mundanes), is now gone, and that my mundane guy feels vastly inferior now. (talk about a suckerpunch to my morale). I don't even know where to begin, whats the difference between these mages, and sorcerors? It's barely noticable from what it sounds like, but I've also never played a sorceror. *shrug*, The only thing I can suggest, is sit back, watch, and see how it progresses. Send in bugs, things that peak your interest, things that you think could contribute. I'm sorry for criticizing, but understand when you spend 4 RL years plotting and waiting only to have all that time spent wasted, my mood got a little sour. Staff - made a change, took a risk. At the end of the day, we need to respect them, and give them a chance.

That's all well and good, but there are several threads that already exist for you to express your disappointment. I've posted in those as well, because I'm also disappointed. This thread - is not for that.

[Vwest]

I feel like karma isn't really doing what it should be doing.

I'm really coming up short on how to even express how much I back that post.

When I lamented to a friend of mine on Skype about not wanting to have to special application an extended subguild:

[REMOVED] REMOVED: try to be more supportive to staff on the forums
[REMOVED] REMOVED: and dont argue with them all the time
[REMOVED] Vwest: I'll stop arguing when they stop assuming the worst of every fucking thing I do.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: they dont give a shit what you think
[REMOVED] REMOVED: and ffs you mudsex way to many witches
[REMOVED] Vwest: You're just pissy I won't post the logs.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: REMOVED
[REMOVED] Vwest: LOL
[REMOVED] REMOVED: if you want more karma you need to give up some pride
[REMOVED] REMOVED: play some sponsored roles or take orders on a merchant house char
[REMOVED] REMOVED: i got all my karma for sponsored roles
[REMOVED] Vwest: I'm not really into social exclusive roles.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: theres a game beyond killing ppl and fucking witches all the time you know
[REMOVED] Vwest: Yeah, a boring one full of people that idle in the Gaj all day.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: the atrium is going strong and they always need kilelrs
[REMOVED] REMOVED: killers
[REMOVED] REMOVED: go pk for them and staff will give you karma for it
[REMOVED] Vwest: So, killing PCs for IC reasons = bad player.
[REMOVED] Vwest: But killing PCs for IC reasons because someone with a sponsored role said so = karma.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: basically
[REMOVED] REMOVED: its a shit system but if you want karma you have to play the game their way
[REMOVED] Vwest: I think I'd rather just complain about the system and stick to special apps.
[REMOVED] Vwest: And keep mudsexing witches, constantly.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: probably doing it right now
[REMOVED] Vwest: It's possible.
[REMOVED] Vwest: Even probable!
[REMOVED] REMOVED: have fun with one karma forever
[REMOVED] Vwest: How many points do you have, now?
[REMOVED] REMOVED: got my REMOVED some weeks ago
[REMOVED] Vwest: And how long have you been playing Arm?
[REMOVED] REMOVED: REMOVED
[REMOVED] Vwest: So you spent REMOVED kissing ass and playing roles that bore you... for REMOVED points of karma.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: they arent always boring
[REMOVED] REMOVED: i get to see what everyone is doing and know whats going on
[REMOVED] Vwest: Right, so you get to see and hear about all the cool shit I'm doing while taking orders for glamour pantsu.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: someone has to take the pantsu orders
[REMOVED] REMOVED: those orders get me karma
[REMOVED] REMOVED: and i can make a char with that karma that could kill yours np
[REMOVED] Vwest: REMOVED
[REMOVED] REMOVED: REMOVED
[REMOVED] REMOVED: l2anatomy bitch
[REMOVED] Vwest: Japan has my back, so fuck you. I'm going to bed.
[REMOVED] REMOVED: dream of karma you will never have killer queen
[REMOVED] REMOVED: gl not dying to all the super saiyan krathi warriors
[REMOVED] REMOVED: REMOVED
[REMOVED] Vwest: I am ranger.
[REMOVED] Vwest: I will kill them all.
[REMOVED] Vwest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HmQNkcAhgg
[REMOVED] Vwest: SLEEP!

I don't necessarily have a problem with the changes themselves, but rather the with growing chasm in power for the sake of power between karma and non-karma players.

No karma was never really an issue for me beyond the annoyance of having to use the request tool to get access to things. You could still be competitive as a no karma player because the hard coded negatives of having powerful magick meant you had your own coded edge. You couldn't throw down a demonfire or super size your endurance, but you could exploit stealth for surprise or the resilience of never needing mana to fuel your attacks.

Rock-paper-scissors, in other words.

These changes mark a step away from the vague sense of balance offered by the rock-paper-scissors guild system. There is no longer a coded trade-off to having magick powers, it is pure, hard coded win. You get every benefit a non-karma player is granted, plus you get more on top without having any real detriment beyond 'people might not like you as much, maybe'.

It isn't like a mul or a desert elf, where there are hard limitations enforced by code and staff.

There is no down side to these guild-based spikes in power, as they exist for the singular purpose of giving advantage to favored players. There is no story or flavor benefit in having Outdoorsman over Hunter, for example. They both infer a history or future potential in the same general skillset, except one gives you a massive coded edge over the other. It won't make your characters story richer, it won't give your more pizazz.

It's pure, unmitigated power spike because staff like you.

[Beethoven]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50905.0.html

I made a thread for the karma discussion. I'm not a mod so I can't move anyone's comments, but maybe someone could look into that?

[BadSkeelz]

Extended subguilds should be the new basic subguilds because they let characters have fuller and more fleshed out skill sets, instead of a pc who can do one thing well and a few things shitilly.

The karma discussion is an interesting one but probably deserving of its own thread. For what it's worth, I've found respecting the virtual world to be the best path to karma. Assuming that the one karma point I got for leadership right after leading my clan into a spider nest was more of a joke than anything

Edit: thanks Beethoven. I'll move my post over when I get home.

[Delirium]

I'm all for including both code and roleplay into one holistic bundle, but you all are totally forgetting a very important fact.

Witches might be 'super powered mundanes' but guess what, they have always been super powered. Now they are just in a possibly less squishy way.

I'm okay with witches potentially being even harder to kill without something (literally) blowing up in your face.

You who go "oh now they're just mundanes but better!" are completely ignoring the fact that witches are still the same outlawed, downtrodden, social pariahs they have been for the last decade+ of the game. Rogue witches will always, always be one mistake away from being hunted until they are dead.

One. Mistake.

[Lizzie]

I'm all for including both code and roleplay into one holistic bundle, but you all are totally forgetting a very important fact.

Witches might be 'super powered mundanes' but guess what, they have always been super powered. Now they are just in a possibly less squishy way.

I'm okay with witches potentially being even harder to kill without something (literally) blowing up in your face.

You who go "oh now they're just mundanes but better!" are completely ignoring the fact that witches are still the same outlawed, downtrodden, social pariahs they have been for the last decade+ of the game. Rogue witches will always, always be one mistake away from being hunted until they are dead.

One. Mistake.

No, they're not the same. They have a third of the magicks that their predecessors have. And, the magicks they have are no longer well-rounded; they are now required to specialize. Same risk, same social outcastery, with less actual reason for anyone to give a shit that they're witches (because they're not - they're now rangers with rangz or warriors with quake, or merchants with heal, etc. etc.)

[little chicken woman]

You who go "oh now they're just mundanes but better!" are completely ignoring the fact that witches are still the same outlawed, downtrodden, social pariahs they have been for the last decade+ of the game. Rogue witches will always, always be one mistake away from being hunted until they are dead.

One. Mistake.

I do get sort of confused by people who look at it from the code side of things, rather than the roleplay. I think to myself, "Perhaps they haven't played a gemmed recently." But that's sort of rude as a statement without any explanation.

My gemmed don't get to interact beyond hostile or business or eww, witch communications with mundanes; idle bar chatter for some, maybe, until the mundane tells you to leave the bar; I don't spamcast so I have literally nothing to do half of the time but skills that most people get such at grebbing or cooking, and much of nothing to do if I don't feel creative with my emotes; much, much, much smaller pool of people to draw help from, to be hostile towards, to become friends with, to go hunting with. Boredom, in the past, was my major reason for storing gemmed, even during the one time there were a good dozen witches around during my playtime.

Nothing kills a story, a character and their accumulated skills like boredom. Although some would say this is a good thing with the old witches, keep their numbers down.

And being able to treat witches like real people instead of knowing they are witches because 'all witches are extremely weak and nontalented for no reason'? Yes, yes, yes. If they get warrior and ranger removed as options due to a few jerks' fuckups with krok skin, they'll still have the options to be -people- with -skills- and -languages- and -haggle- and -kick- which they could not have before without the almighty sacrifice of the measly subguild.

I don't know where all that came from.

[Chettaman]

Once upon a time I believe that anything was possible in this game.
And then I saw that flash powder was taken out of the game, and being so new, I had never even touched the stuff. It hadn't really dawned on me that something, all of a sudden was not possible. The next thing that was taken away was sandwiches. This hit me hard. Because I had /really/ been wanting to make one. I was a dummy back then so I didn't even roleplay squishing anything between two pieces of bread - which I do now against the will of our gods.
This slap to the face was a testimony to just how much was possible in this game. Then, I guess other things became impossible and ... it broke my heart, because now I know that my characters aren't completely mine (In a sense). I have to ask permission to do something that makes sense for my characters sometimes. ... and sometimes the answer is ''no''. Sometimes the answer is ''no, because''. And sometimes the answer is ''yes.''

Most of my characters are nothings that try to do nothing. But every once in a while I'll get pulled into something and I have to do something... It's been a while since that's happened, though, so who knows if things have already changed.
I would like to see more patience from our beloved gods. Instead of telling people ''no'' or ''no, because.'' Lead us in a direction we can accept. Fool our fantastic minds with ''acceptable'' alternatives. Say, ''no, but you can... or you can try...''.

I see Armageddon now going down a path of stagnation! ... which isn't bad, because I enjoy playing this game  without skill sets. But the addition of extended subguilds as choices now leads me to believe that the gods want to care less. (no offense) by making them choices in character creation, these incredible exceptions have become normal. Staff can trust us to use the skill sets of nearly two guilds at once. ... which ya know... has always been what we've all wanted. Lizzie, I think, proposed just giving us /all/ the skills. I kind of like that idea.
I like the idea of giving us the ability to choose which skills we get - Karma unrelated until magick or race is involved. Or, another idea...
After having two or more karma being able to choose skills becomes possible.

I mean... if you can trust me to make a warrior stone elementalist, you can trust me to pick a certain skill set of my own. You could use the guilds and sub guilds already present as ''templates''.
>warrior - gets warrior skills at a lower cost of "character creation points"
>subguild thief - gets thief skills at slightly lower cost of ''character creation points''.
> any skills outside of the warrior guild or thief subguild chosen come at a greater cost of ''character creation points''.
- main guild skills could cap near however they are now.
- sub guild skills could cap near however they are now.
- any skills outside of the guilds chosen would have to spend extra ''character creation points'' to make higher. (or, those points could be used towards raising the cap of the main and sub guild skill caps.

or something.

You could even do that for magicker (sub)guilds!
**ha. Lancer said something like this on the first page.
*** by the way. I've always wondered, but forgot to ask if it's alright for me to roleplay making sandwiches. Because I do.

[Norcal]

Nothing kills a story, a character and their accumulated skills like boredom. Although some would say this is a good thing with the old witches, keep their numbers down.

And being able to treat witches like real people instead of knowing they are witches because 'all witches are extremely weak and nontalented for no reason'? Yes, yes, yes. If they get warrior and ranger removed as options due to a few jerks' fuckups with krok skin, they'll still have the options to be -people- with -skills- and -languages- and -haggle- and -kick- which they could not have before without the almighty sacrifice of the measly subguild.

I don't know where all that came from.

I think boredom has been a real problem with gemmed and even rouge witches. Sure you -can- do a lot of things, but no one really wants to do them with you unless they are also a witch. So you end up solo and that is fine for a time, but not long term.  The changes staff have put in, will go quite a ways to changing all of that, yet more for rogues than for gemmed, who still  wear that thing on their neck. Even if I am Trooper Malik, Best Basher in the Byn, as soon as I get a gem I am done.

So to me, it seems like we have changed some variables in the equation, but one of the stickiest remains un-touched: What to do with the gem.

Personally, I think that the ability to detect if another PC is an elementalist should be removed from the game. That would give the new brand of gickers the ability to live semi- normal lives. They would only be outed if someone saw them casting..and lived to tell.

And for the gemmed, the slaves, the lowest of the low, offer them the ability to become FULL mages, with the entire spell tree of their element. So they may have a lot of solo rp, but they would get something in return. 

You would have to make the choice to be gemmed in char gen, or perhaps by special app.  No accepting a gem IC. If you are an elementalist without a gem, and you get outed, then it is death on sight in town.

To me, this would still allow for the full mage option to exist IC, and make ample room for the new changes, keeping as it were, a larger group of players happy.

[evilcabbage]

Nothing kills a story, a character and their accumulated skills like boredom. Although some would say this is a good thing with the old witches, keep their numbers down.

And being able to treat witches like real people instead of knowing they are witches because 'all witches are extremely weak and nontalented for no reason'? Yes, yes, yes. If they get warrior and ranger removed as options due to a few jerks' fuckups with krok skin, they'll still have the options to be -people- with -skills- and -languages- and -haggle- and -kick- which they could not have before without the almighty sacrifice of the measly subguild.

I don't know where all that came from.

I think boredom has been a real problem with gemmed and even rouge witches. Sure you -can- do a lot of things, but no one really wants to do them with you unless they are also a witch. So you end up solo and that is fine for a time, but not long term.  The changes staff have put in, will go quite a ways to changing all of that, yet more for rogues than for gemmed, who still  wear that thing on their neck. Even if I am Trooper Malik, Best Basher in the Byn, as soon as I get a gem I am done.

So to me, it seems like we have changed some variables in the equation, but one of the stickiest remains un-touched: What to do with the gem.

Personally, I think that the ability to detect if another PC is an elementalist should be removed from the game. That would give the new brand of gickers the ability to live semi- normal lives. They would only be outed if someone saw them casting..and lived to tell.

And for the gemmed, the slaves, the lowest of the low, offer them the ability to become FULL mages, with the entire spell tree of their element. So they may have a lot of solo rp, but they would get something in return. 

You would have to make the choice to be gemmed in char gen, or perhaps by special app.  No accepting a gem IC. If you are an elementalist without a gem, and you get outed, then it is death on sight in town.

To me, this would still allow for the full mage option to exist IC, and make ample room for the new changes, keeping as it were, a larger group of players happy.

how about -no-.

if you get caught in allanak, they gem you. changing that completely would just be stupid and make elementalism an even MORE isolated role than it already is.

[Chettaman]

detecting magick makes sense. It's about that [redacted], man that [redacted], dood.
I don't think taking away more important aspects of the world would help make ''the end result'' any better.

As for ''full elementalists'', I think it would be cool to at least make it possible through special application... because you know it makes sense, baby. *wink Or even heavy roleplay.
Becoming a full elementalist shouldn't be impossible, because well... ''anything'' is possible in this world of ours. Don't make our beloved armageddon a generic MMO!

... except those things that have been deemed impossible. Like sandwiches.

[Norcal]

^
Removing the ability to determine if someone was a gicker would make it much harder to get caught. Your PC would have little isolation at all. Until you made the one mistake.  Then it is time to run.

I suppose they could still give you the option of the gem, yet not the full mage bit. Not sure how you could do that for an existing char.

[Patuk]

Removing the ability to determine if someone was a gicker

I mean, drovians are gone, so this one seems like it's been covered pretty well I'd say.

[Norcal]

Removing the ability to determine if someone was a gicker

I mean, drovians are gone, so this one seems like it's been covered pretty well I'd say.

Ontdek IC 

[Chettaman]

Removing the ability to determine if someone was a gicker

I mean, stuff!

Shhhhhh! quick change your post or everyone's going to realize!

[BadSkeelz]

The fist post has been edited, but I think I'm being on topic by proposing the following:

BadSkeelz Final Changes Final Decision Brainstorming Until He Thinks of Something Else That He Thinks Would Be Cool™

The current Extended Mundane Subguilds become the new base Subguilds
I am not sold on these subguilds being so powerful as to require Karma. A Stealthy Warrior is not as stealthy-dangerous as an assassin, an assassin-protector is not able to go toe-to-toe with warriors (well, maybe, Protector is pretty good).
Nor do I buy in to the argument that it would "open the floodgates" of mastercrafts - and if it did, is that such a bad thing? Furthermore, giving Mundanes to take "powerful" mundane subguilds would help restore some of the lost balance of Magickers vs Mundanes. Not that Armageddon was ever balanced or was supposed to be balanced, of course, but it would help differentiate mundanes and magickers again. "Oh, you're a ranger who can shoot fireballs? Well I'm one that can sap you/master block and parry/craft cool shit that people will use long after you're just a PK report."

Mundane skills added to Mundane Guilds
Give everyone some level of climb. Apprentice or Journeyman level of climb would go a ways towards opening the world up to mundanes other than rangers, and make it so the most frightening thing in the game isn't necessarily an RPT with a climb check.
I'd like to see the ability to restrain someone via mundane means added.

Reinforce the Documented Magicker Hate
Those who think magick-subguild PCs are now just out and out "Better" than mundane subs appear to ignore an important fact - magick is hated and feared in all civilization to some degree or another. Even in "Ain't my business" Red Storm, publicly casting magick will get you killed. Even being known as a magicker might get you lynched. If players choose to see magick as simply a coded tool to give them an advantage, the Virtual World needs to punish them for that. The first Allanaki Sponsored Role who's caught using or tolerating a bunch of rogue Gickers in their clan should be publicly admonished and executed. The goal isn't to shit on magickers or magick-liking players - it's to maintain the divide and challenges that are part of what make Armageddon magick unique.

Add more Magicker documents
The new subguild descriptions for magickers are pretty damn cool. I'd like to see the Gemmed get a similar amount of attention, for their place in society to be better codified. Or at least be more evocative than "Here's a Gem, please don't meaningfully interact with anyone other than other Gemmed, Templars, or Oash nobles." What are they doing in those Temples all day? Because judging by the echoes it's a lot of spamcasting, which is kind of disappointing.

[Beethoven]

What are they doing in those Temples all day? Because judging by the echoes it's a lot of spamcasting, which is kind of disappointing.

Not just spamcasting, but doing stuff that would get PCs crimflagged these days. It's very misleading.

[Chettaman]

Why do the gemmed do magickery things in the temples?

My incomplete reasoning is that, understanding something that you've been burdened with makes you better accepting of said burden.
And then when you go out and you're literally ignored for an hour or two, it's kind of like... alright. I guess only other magickers are going to roleplay with me. Understandably so, because people who ignore you are roleplaying their discomfort towards you.
And then when you go even further out and you're attacked or ran away from it's kind of like... alright. I guess only other magickers are going to roleplay with me. Understandably so, because people who attack you or run from you are roleplaying their discomfort towards you.

Could you do things to force your way to interact with others? Surely. Like... be the bad guy. Or ... be the hero. Or... go to a place where people won't mind talking to you. Or... putting them into a bad situation that you created. Or...
I can't think of any other ways to interact with others as a pariah of society.
But. It is reasonable for gemmed people to interact with just magick people, because t is reasonable for the majority of peoples to avoid gemmed people. Even other magick people avoid gemmed people!

But I get your idea. More documentation like... known histories of the temples probably passed by word of mouth by those inside of the temples.
>Discuss MagickTeacher WhatWeDo
the magick teacher of magick says to you, "We spam cast all day."
the magick teacher of magick says to you, "The element we serve does this and that and I can help you to understand. Ask me anything about the WORDS or how to perform SPELLS. Or maybe WHY we do what we do."

[Chettaman]

Psionics.
I'd actually like to see them become a much more taxing thing. Like for people with high intelligence it's as easy as it is now, while for people with low intelligence it's like 50 stun a message!
And for anyone who specializes in psionics you know... it's always easy.

And for those who /need/ psionics to play as in merchants and such... better hope for high wisdom roles or start mastering the way. Muahahaha!

*edit I doubt it'll happen, though. I remember when Gunnerblaster called me up once and was like, "Yo, douchebag. Guess what? They changed how contact works." And I was like, ''Oh, sweet. They made it more difficult to do?'' and he was like, ''no, they gave everyone master contact.'' and I was like, ''say what....?!''.

I might of missed the thread about why they did that. I'm sure it had to do with how people are born with the ability to use it.
This would give people a reason to interact more. ... but maybe I'm just projecting from my hope that facebook, instead of making people interact more it does the exact opposite.

[Jihelu]

Psionics.
I'd actually like to see them become a much more taxing thing. Like for people with high intelligence it's as easy as it is now, while for people with low intelligence it's like 50 stun a message!
And for anyone who specializes in psionics you know... it's always easy.

And for those who /need/ psionics to play as in merchants and such... better hope for high wisdom roles or start mastering the way. Muahahaha!

Hey thats pretty good.