PCs killing other PCs

[Incognito]

In light of events which have recently enfolded, and possibly effect the entire Known World, tensions are sure to be high, player-vs-player confrontations will be on the rise, and player-killing will probably increase.

There are definite IC reasons for PC to kill other PCs in these tumultous times, however, I would like to urge all the players to take a step back, and also take things from an OOC view point (to some extent).

Sure, there will always be some roles (militia from Tuluk or Allanak, for example) and events (bloodfeuds, one-to-one enemities, for example) that will require blatant PK'ing should they come across their counterparts/victims.

But for the rest of us, please give thought to some of the OOC points below, before killing another PC:

1) Victim might have logged off in wrong location prior to HRPT and is now stuck in the wrong place with the wrong accent.
2) Victim might be passing through a certain area, enroute elsewhere.
3) Victim might be lost.
4) Victim might be dehydrated and needs to replenish water or face death.
5) Does my role really require me to kill on sight?
6) Does my role background actually say that trespassers need to be killed?
7) Does my role/clan/racial background suggest that I should commit genocide?
Does my role/mentality dictate that I kill "finger-wrigglers" outright?
9) Just because my clan/tribe/house belongs to a certain geographic location, does it mean that I must protect it from all outsiders on pain of death?

There are various ways that a conflict can be resolved - death is one of them, and in most cases, not fun for the player of the victim PC.

It is my personal experience over many years of Arm'ing that 9 times out of 10, PK'ing isn't really necessary, and can definitely be avoided.

If your PC needs a conflict to be resolved with a "win" - some possible suggestions could be:
a) Ask the victim to apologize.
b) Loot the victim to some extent.
c) Completely loot the victim and leave him naked.
d) Ask victim's clan/House/tribe to submit a public apology.
e) Beat up the victim to some extent and then let him go.

In short, there are many ways that a PC could come out on top of a conflict, without actually killing off the victim PC.

I would definitely urge all PCs (who are not playing roles which necessitate PK'ing) to try and resolve conflicts without resorting to PK'ing.

We're all playing the game to have fun, and it's sad when players get de-motivated and discouraged by becoming victims of PK'ing, after having spend considerable time and effort to flesh out their roles.

In the words of Gandalf "True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."

Yes, we're all aware that PK'ing is allowed IG and there is no real restriction on it - but we can be judicious to other players too!

[janeshephard]

Death can be fun.

I think if you realize your PC is going to die some day you'll be more accepting of it.

[Barzalene]

Both things can be true simultaneously.

Death will come. We must accept it. That doesn't mean we must trivialize it.

[najdorf]

I agree on some items in your checklist. However, situation shouldn't be any different than before. Same common sense & good RP guidelines have to be followed before PKing anyone. It depends on the mood of the attacker, it actually depends on a lot of factors. If the victim took active part in a battle, his/her chances of getting away will be harder. If attacker has lost his/her family or mate in the battle, hint of an accent can be a reason.

In any case, I hope a long interaction takes place between the sides so that it can be enjoyed.

[janeshephard]

Both things can be true simultaneously.

Death will come. We must accept it. That doesn't mean we must trivialize it.

In my experience being merciful can lead to your own death fairly quickly.

If you're from a faction my PC feels threatened by expect me to try to get an advantage and eliminate you.

[Barzalene]

Both things can be true simultaneously.

Death will come. We must accept it. That doesn't mean we must trivialize it.

In my experience being merciful can lead to your own death fairly quickly.

If you're from a faction my PC feels threatened by expect me to try to get an advantage and eliminate you.

I'm failing to relate your comment to mine. In any way.

[tiptoe]

With a tagline of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal," this seems like an strange request. But...PK was being discussed very recently, so I won't delve into that.

Personally, I miss the days when most of your characters were PKed. Seemed a little more interesting than your run of the mill NPC deaths.

[Shalazar]

With a tagline of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal," this seems like an strange request. But...PK was being discussed very recently, so I won't delve into that.

Personally, I miss the days when most of your characters were PKed. Seemed a little more interesting than your run of the mill NPC deaths.

This.

[Lizzie]

Both things can be true simultaneously.

Death will come. We must accept it. That doesn't mean we must trivialize it.

In my experience being merciful can lead to your own death fairly quickly.

If you're from a faction my PC feels threatened by expect me to try to get an advantage and eliminate you.

I'm failing to relate your comment to mine. In any way.

If I'm understanding it right:

Your PC accosts my PC. My PC doesn't like that one bit. In fact, she vows to herself that if she gets out of this alive, she will get her revenge. Your PC, being played by a merciful player, finds an excuse to let my PC go. Maybe steals her inix and weapon and tells her she has to stay out of the territory forever, and threatens my PC with the might of your tribe (of whom a few just happen to be mages - you're not one of them though).

My PC thinks to herself - you and what army are going to keep me out, and who left you the boss of me? You dumbass, you should've killed me when you had the chance.

Two weeks later, your PC is dead - a poisoned arrow through the skull from a distance, so you don't even know what hit her, because your character chose to give mercy to someone who was a sharp-shooter who left their warbow at home the day you happened to accost her.

Or an even scarier scenario - two weeks later, you're visiting Tuluk for trade, and a white-robed templar tells you how exciting it must be to be someone who can roam free in the desert - and invites you to lunch to tell her of your adventures. You go with her - a long but lovely walk to the Heart.

You never leave.

Welcome to Armageddon - where mercy is for the weak.


Now - this is one aspect of gameplay. Not the only one, certainly - but it is a perfectly reasonable reaction to the game world. There are times to give mercy to a character, and there are times to AVOID giving mercy to the character. The players' emotional ties to the character should take a back seat to believable roleplay. Not realistic roleplay, not fair roleplay, but believable roleplay. If you have to create excuses to NOT kill a character, then perhaps they really should be dying. Maybe not. But for me, every time I've made excuses for NOT killing a character, it's come to bite me in the ass.

[Barzalene]

My post didn't relate to mercy in any way. It related to not devaluing the impact of death by treating the game as  a first person shooter where other players pcs are not viewed as people.

How merciful anyone's pc is or isn't, should or shouldn't be, is beyond my control and not really my business.

[Harmless]

certainly the times I've been PKed I had it coming. It didn't make it less painful, though.

I've had good talks with Barzalene on helper chat about deaths. I appreciate their opinion, because, in the end, taking their advice helped me to move on the fastest and get back in the game after a few hard losses.

I've been thankful ever since, but my work-hours have suffered!

[Refugee]

In my opinion, if you make the choice to move your PC someplace where it wouldn't be welcome, you yourself have chosen to accept the PK that might happen.  If you're not cool with the risk, stay home.

Even if you were in the opposite city before the HRPT and ended up trapped there, you really had no reason to expect safety there.  You took a risk.  It's just worse now.

[Yam]

You've gone soft, Incognito.

[Ender]

The game's been a bit ginger over PK for the last few years as there hasn't really been a major flare up of faction violence in the game for a long time.  Now the environment is prime that players can and should react with violent force if they find other PCs in the wrong area and doing the wrong thing.

In the past the staff have made the game world come alive to enforce when your character is doing the wrong thing in the wrong place, and many times this results in death.  Now in certain areas of the game it seems players may be partly responsible for bringing those aspects of the game alive as well.

Please, please, please, players when you find yourself taking your character to a dangerous area and doing a dangerous thing, do not get OOCly upset when players react accordingly and attack and perhaps kill you.

[Lizzie]

The game's been a bit ginger over PK for the last few years as there hasn't really been a major flare up of faction violence in the game for a long time.  Now the environment is prime that players can and should react with violent force if they find other PCs in the wrong area and doing the wrong thing.

In the past the staff have made the game world come alive to enforce when your character is doing the wrong thing in the wrong place, and many times this results in death.  Now in certain areas of the game it seems players may be partly responsible for bringing those aspects of the game alive as well.

Please, please, please, players when you find yourself taking your character to a dangerous area and doing a dangerous thing, do not get OOCly upset when players react accordingly and attack and perhaps kill you.

Exactly.

[maxid]

While I agree with Ender, 100%, alongside knowing that death could come and you should accept it, you should be able to recognize mercy and realistically react to being let go, even if you get humiliated a little bit.

If I ride into Soh lands as a tuluki because I got lost and I get hassled, stolen from, then turned around, I might not just go back with my warbow and find the Soh who took my shit to kill them.. I might thank Utep that I got out, and avoid going there in the future.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You've gone soft, Incognito.

I have to agree.

I will say, though, if you have the OOC power to do so, make their death a good one. Try to give them a good scene if you can do so. I understand if you can't, but try to if you can.

[RogueGunslinger]

70% of the reason I play this game is because of pkilling. And that's not me killing(because I suck), but me being killed. It's something you can't experience anywhere else. The loss of a character you were into, in the very moment you know things are going bad, is so fucking adrenaline-rush inducing that I can't get enough of it. I never get it from NPC's anymore. It's only the PK's that can bring it out.

[Cutthroat]

Conflict without PK and conflict with PK both have their place. Now that things are flaring up, if anything, Zalanthans would be more careful. Going to the "wrong" place to fill up water or whatever or passing through a warzone to get some place else isn't really an excuse for other PCs to show mercy to yours. Your PC should be aware of the danger and bring an extra skin or go a different route. Besides "murder, corruption, betrayal", this game has always been about actions and reactions, and consequences. ("Actions, reactions, consequences" is just not as catchy though.)

[MeTekillot]

70% of the reason I play this game is because of pkilling. And that's not me killing(because I suck), but me being killed. It's something you can't experience anywhere else. The loss of a character you were into, in the very moment you know things are going bad, is so fucking adrenaline-rush inducing that I can't get enough of it. I never get it from NPC's anymore. It's only the PK's that can bring it out.

you're getting too deep, man

pretty soon you're gonna be main-lining tektolnes insta-disintegration spells just to get your fix

[RogueGunslinger]

CRACKAGEDDON CRACKAGEDDON CRACKAGEDDON

[Ouroboros]

It is my personal experience over many years of Arm'ing that 9 times out of 10, PK'ing isn't really necessary, and can definitely be avoided.

Couldn't agree more. And it really isn't because I have anything against the concept of PK'ing. It's because experience has shown me that the potential RP that can come from withholding a deathblow often leads to far more enjoyment for me as a player, through the RP opportunities that can surface, than the enjoyment I'd otherwise receive from the kill. I don't know, maybe I'm just not homicidal enough to feel the scales tipped the other way.

Welcome to Armageddon - where mercy is for the weak.

The scenario presented is definitely a risk one takes, yes. However, more often than not that risk comes from the IC/OOC disconnect many players experience.

You were bested in combat, brought to an inch of your life, stripped of all earthly possessions, and so forth. And were left breathing with a warning that often goes like, "Don't. Do that. Again."

Were that to happen to most people, they'd wet their bed for a couple months and whether bitter, angry, or relieved, chances are they wouldn't do whatever that was again. But then, many of us are playing superheroes, and that's where the problems arise. Because in the movies, the beaten hero comes back with a vengeance and has their revenge served in an ice bucket. Sometimes the next day, sometimes decades later. But they always strike back.

My advice to anyone who finds themselves having been granted PK mercy is, after having licked your wounds, to take a long hard stare at your character and really consider if they're a normal person or a superhero. I get that you, as a player, want revenge and can calculate the statistical success of such based on code. But can your character? Does your character really know that if they xyz while abc under the dfg, they'll likely be able to get their PK revenge unscathed? Or would they instead count their blessings and move on with their lives, doing their best to forget the incident ever happened?

We can't all be the heroes. And we can't all be the villains. Sometimes we're just Amos... a simple man of the land, making his way through the hardships of life as best he can. And feck anything that complicates that any further, it's hard enough putting food on the plate some days. Revenge? Let the Nobles worry about that shite, between wiping their arse with silk.

And even if revenge is on the menu? A PK is just an appetizer. You want to hurt that guy? Bring down their entire family by planting evidence of treason against their city-state. Befriend and eventually hire their best friend to take them out, so that last blow really stings. Salt their crops, burn their house, take it all away bit by bit until they're left with less than you were... naked and bloody, in the desert. Don't take the easy way out... because at the end of the day, they didn't. At least show your antagonist's player some respect, even if you hate their character.

[Delirium]

I just want to state, for the record, that I love Ouroboros' post. And agree wholeheartedly... in almost every case.

On the flipside, sometimes you just gotta kill a bitch.

Welcome to Armageddon.

[Kismetic]

1) Victim might have logged off in wrong location prior to HRPT and is now stuck in the wrong place with the wrong accent.
2) Victim might be passing through a certain area, enroute elsewhere.
3) Victim might be lost.
4) Victim might be dehydrated and needs to replenish water or face death.
5) Does my role really require me to kill on sight?
6) Does my role background actually say that trespassers need to be killed?
7) Does my role/clan/racial background suggest that I should commit genocide?
Does my role/mentality dictate that I kill "finger-wrigglers" outright?
9) Just because my clan/tribe/house belongs to a certain geographic location, does it mean that I must protect it from all outsiders on pain of death?

This thread needs to be retitled, "Nine good reasons to kill someone on Arm"

[Samoa]

I'm really surprised everyone's so bloodthirsty.

At the end of the day, I feel like it should be about what's good for the game. We cut newbies some degree of slack often, don't we? Why is that? Because it's good for the game.

The problem is that in MOST circumstances, killing a player is an inherently destructive thing for the game. Can it create plots? Oh, absolutely! But odds are, it's destroying a lot more than it's adding, because all it's really adding is one: "Who was that guy that killed my buddy?" There are exceptions to this rule, but consider if beating the shit out of someone, robbing them, scarring them, whatever, is really going to fail to do something that murder won't. I agree with Ouroboros completely -- not everyone should be a superhero. I have friends who get mugged out in Oakland, or get the shit beat out of them, or raped. And do you know what they do? They sure as shit don't spend the next few years trying to track down who did it so they can enact revenge. They give thanks that they're alive, and then they move away and pray it never happens again -- so, please, don't give me the "it's not IC to fail to seek revenge if someone spares me!" as a reason for murder.

I have, and do, kill PCs. Sometimes with very little prelude, because that's what makes the most sense. What I'm saying, though, is that that should really be the -exception- to the rule. If you mug someone, act violent against them, or otherwise rough them up and *let them go*, you are not doing a destructive thing -- you are doing a constructive thing for the game. You have added to the gameworld as a whole, not subtracted from it. Have you EVER played a leader PC? How does it feel when you've been planning something for OOC months and someone just ups and gets killed? It fucking sucks. And then your RPT gets pushed back, and back, and back, and sometimes it is even seasons later that you get to do what you were going to do, all because your minions keep dying. Again, sometimes murder IS the correct answer. But you should not be looking for excuses to kill somebody, as a surprising many of you are suggesting in this thread.

We ALL fudge things sometimes. We come up with reasons to do things for our characters that make IC sense so we can do the things we want to do with them. Someone posted something about "how to be a good roleplayer" a few months back, about pencil and paper games, and one of the rules that EVERYONE agreed on was, "Don't come up with a reason for your character to not do something, because that just shits on everyone at the table who came to play. It's YOUR fucking character. You figure out how to get them to do it." That holds true here, too. The same way you come up with a reason to interact with a newbie who you might normally not. The same way you come up with a reason for your pickpocket to not know who someone is so you can rob them and cause drama. The same way you find a reason to interact with that other off-peak player because there's only ever ten people on when you play.

Be constructive. Not destructive. It makes us all better off.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I THINK that people looking for an EXCUSE were just playing. I HOPE they were.

I absolutely don't encourage looking for reasons to kill other PCs. That really IS stupid. On the other hand, I don't encourage NOT killing PCs when the situation would logically lead to their death. That's ALSO stupid.

And yes, if someone spares your life, don't go the cold revenge route because you the player are pissed. Our egos are not our characters' egos. It's really important to remember that. Be IC at all times, whether killing someone or not.

[Ouroboros]

Just to tack on two points to this...

Yes, there are definitely times where a PK is the appropriate response. How to judge when that time has come, was I believe what Incognito was trying to shed light on. We don't always have the luxury to stop any think about that of course, and perhaps often the situation has no other possible outcome. Be it because there's a Templar behind you ordering the kill, the heat of battle doesn't permit a truce, or any other number of reasons we encounter in the course of play. One helpful tip in this, is to find some time to consider how your character would act under various situations that when occurring are time-sensitive and/or stressful. That way if that time comes along, the situational conclusion you arrived to just might jump to mind.

That said... If you've never experienced a proper antagonist to your character, definitely consider that the next time you have the opportunity to find one. Don't cheat yourself out of the experience, because it's one of the most rewarding you'll get to enjoy. Your character might have every reason to want to throttle the dying breath from someone's throat, but by reigning them back a bit, you as a player get to enjoy the process. And not just you, but likely most characters around both you and your antagonist. The plots and schemes, the veiled and overt threats, the elaborate attempts that fail just at the last moment... It's just awesome, no other way to describe it.

So. Sure, kill a bitch when you gotta. But if you find an opening, and are dead-set on revenge, consider giving birth to an enemy instead. Make it obvious that you're willing to let the RP escalate, and you just might be surprised at how much fun showing or being shown mercy can be.

[Kismetic]

Personally, I'm against any metagame thought, or even thinking of you as a player.  Some characters are killers.  Others are not.  Some killers have a reason not to kill, and some others are forced to kill against their ethos.  Keep in character, and figure it out.

And don't grief on the GDB.

[X-D]

I am going to have to go with Kismetic on this one.

[tiptoe]

1) Victim might have logged off in wrong location prior to HRPT and is now stuck in the wrong place with the wrong accent.
2) Victim might be passing through a certain area, enroute elsewhere.
3) Victim might be lost.
4) Victim might be dehydrated and needs to replenish water or face death.
5) Does my role really require me to kill on sight?
6) Does my role background actually say that trespassers need to be killed?
7) Does my role/clan/racial background suggest that I should commit genocide?
Does my role/mentality dictate that I kill "finger-wrigglers" outright?
9) Just because my clan/tribe/house belongs to a certain geographic location, does it mean that I must protect it from all outsiders on pain of death?

I feel like a lot of these points are generally the same thing (#2, #6, and #9). And these are pretty specific. And in these cases, I get the feeling your character would KNOW not to be there.

So, maybe it could be taken a step further by saying, "Would my character be in a certain area if they know there's potential to be killed?" I think I would worry less about others' intent to kill, and more about what your character would be doing to preserve its own life.

But overall, this:

Personally, I'm against any metagame thought, or even thinking of you as a player.  Some characters are killers.  Others are not.  Some killers have a reason not to kill, and some others are forced to kill against their ethos.  Keep in character, and figure it out.

And don't grief on the GDB.

Edit to add: I have had my own fair share of PKed characters. I've been butthurt. I've grieved about it. I've submitted complaints that, when looking back, were pretty stupid. But in the end, I can look back and say that despite the fact that my character is dead, I'm playing a game that can actually invoke those types of emotions. I can become so invested in a character that death can be really upsetting. Take a week off, two, maybe three. And then come back and do it all over again because we're all apparently masochists.

I'm glad people PK. It makes this game what it is. And who knows, maybe your character's death will be the start of a new plot. Maybe your death will spur genocide, start wars, or end an era.

[Booya]

While I've had a tiny share of "yurr rly?" PKs, I've longed for a couple of my PCs to be PK'd before - and on a certain occasion eventually had to store instead which sucked.

Bloody wusses! Just remember you're not always doing your fellow player a favour or playing nice by not whacking their character.

[Vwest]

While I've had a tiny share of "yurr rly?" PKs, I've longed for a couple of my PCs to be PK'd before - and on a certain occasion eventually had to store instead which sucked.

Bloody wusses! Just remember you're not always doing your fellow player a favour or playing nice by not whacking their character.

You threw the fight with the horror, didn't you?

[Barzalene]

I THINK that people looking for an EXCUSE were just playing. I HOPE they were.

I absolutely don't encourage looking for reasons to kill other PCs. That really IS stupid. On the other hand, I don't encourage NOT killing PCs when the situation would logically lead to their death. That's ALSO stupid.

And yes, if someone spares your life, don't go the cold revenge route because you the player are pissed. Our egos are not our characters' egos. It's really important to remember that. Be IC at all times, whether killing someone or not.

Venomz said what I meant far more clearly.

[jcortrig]

Personally, I'm against any metagame thought, or even thinking of you as a player.  Some characters are killers.  Others are not.  Some killers have a reason not to kill, and some others are forced to kill against their ethos.  Keep in character, and figure it out.

And don't grief on the GDB.

This sums up how I feel about the matter, too.  You should be worried about what your character would do, not what you think is best.  But... I've been guilty of the meta-think myself before, when I stumbled upon someone who was linkdead and in the wrong place -- choosing to let them be instead of stealing from/killing them, when that would have been the more IC thing to do.  It's a judgment call, to be certain.

[catchall]

But... I've been guilty of the meta-think myself before, when I stumbled upon someone who was linkdead and in the wrong place -- choosing to let them be instead of stealing from/killing them, when that would have been the more IC thing to do.  It's a judgment call, to be certain.

IMO, linkdeads are a whole different ballgame.  It's hard to say what "the IC thing to do" is, since IC they aren't linkdead.  Yeah, I know, Krathstruck, whatever, but the last thing I want to see is for it to become "IC" to consider "Krathstruck" PCs a free-for-all smorgasbord of loot. 

[BleakOne]

I agree with giving some OOC slack to people experiencing OOC problems, like being linkdead, or game glitches, ect.

[Lizzie]

I agree with giving some OOC slack to people experiencing OOC problems, like being linkdead, or game glitches, ect.

Somewhat of a derail but still totally on topic:

So what happens - when there's a bounty out on Talia's head. Talia knows there's a bounty out on her head, everyone knows it. And there's a bunch of people seeking her out. Something happened "recently" involving Talia, so this is fresh information, and the hunt for Talia is new and exciting for everyone involved - including Talia, who is on the run.

Amos Bynner and his crew are over in the tablelands, scouring the terrain, avoiding elves (or maybe they even paid the elves off for this hunt - or joined with them to split the bounty) - and oh hey - there's Talia, in a cave, resting - and linkdead.

The bounty is on her head. Lord Goombah does NOT want her brought in alive. Talia is armed and dangerous - when she's not linkdead. Maybe she's a mage of extraordinary power. Or maybe she's just a maxed ranger/thug. For whatever reason, it's a bad idea to let her go, because you might not have this chance again.

Do you kill her?

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

[janeshephard]

Would someone please kill my PC?

[lordcooper]

Personally, I'm against any metagame thought, or even thinking of you as a player.  Some characters are killers.  Others are not.  Some killers have a reason not to kill, and some others are forced to kill against their ethos.  Keep in character, and figure it out.

And don't grief on the GDB.

I agree pretty much completely, although it can still be good to make exceptions for obvious newbies.

[BuNutzCola]

I agree with giving some OOC slack to people experiencing OOC problems, like being linkdead, or game glitches, ect.

Somewhat of a derail but still totally on topic:

So what happens - when there's a bounty out on Talia's head. Talia knows there's a bounty out on her head, everyone knows it. And there's a bunch of people seeking her out. Something happened "recently" involving Talia, so this is fresh information, and the hunt for Talia is new and exciting for everyone involved - including Talia, who is on the run.

Amos Bynner and his crew are over in the tablelands, scouring the terrain, avoiding elves (or maybe they even paid the elves off for this hunt - or joined with them to split the bounty) - and oh hey - there's Talia, in a cave, resting - and linkdead.

The bounty is on her head. Lord Goombah does NOT want her brought in alive. Talia is armed and dangerous - when she's not linkdead. Maybe she's a mage of extraordinary power. Or maybe she's just a maxed ranger/thug. For whatever reason, it's a bad idea to let her go, because you might not have this chance again.

Do you kill her?

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

In this kind of situation? Wish up and inform imms of the situation. They'll generally give you the go-ahead, or otherwise, I'd think

[Ouroboros]

Do you kill her? Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

I'd wish up and inform staff of the situation and depending on the answer, I would likely wait a bit to give some time to the player to regain access. If they did not return, I would take my time rp'ing her death and request staff at least pass those last moments on to her player, in an effort to take some of the sting away from a linkdeath killing (which always sucks for any player).

But that's me. You do you, boo.

So far in this discussion there's three aspects. Considering what's best for the other player, considering what's best for you as a player, and considering what's appropriate for your character. In my personal posts I haven't really offered much consideration to the first issue, and on this I'll go with Kismetic and agree that it's a metagame aspect, at least most of the time. Whether someone wants to consider such aspects in their gameplay is up to each.

However, I won't accept that considering what's enjoyable to you as a player is a metagame aspect that can simply be thrown out under the banner of RP purity. We all consider our enjoyment, first and foremost because this is a game. We consider it when we decide what sort of character we want to play, from their guild all the way to their quirks. No one plays a character they don't enjoy, at least intentionally. We consider it when we decide to join a clan, or not join one. And we continue to consider it through-out our gaming experience. Anyone that says otherwise is either hypocritical or has missed my point.

As far as the third issue goes, that of what's appropriate for our character, for me it's closely tied to the second issue. While I'd love to be able to say that my character lives without my interference, until Ginka goes AI that simply isn't possible. We're as much actors as we are puppeteers, and every time our characters are faced with a decision, we're the one's making that call. There's also very few characters who only have a possible single response to any given situation, unless they're a robot and thinking in binary terms. Just like in real life, there's a million factors that go into our every decision, starting from what to have for breakfast all the way to whether to shiv your cell-mate. Most of these factors are processed automatically without us even realizing it, but they do factor in.

Unfortunately when our characters are faced with a decision, unless they're a genetic replicants of us, we have to spend a bit more time deciding for them than we would for ourselves. All those various factors that we process in milliseconds in our day to day lives, have to be taken under consideration for our characters as well. Especially if you're claiming to be RP purists without metagame considerations. That's all fine and dandy, but treating your character like a cardboard cutout is just as bad as metagaming in my book. Taking it a step further, our characters are also able to rationalize their behavior just as much as we can, when they need to. Even if you're playing a hardened killer, you still need to stop and consider the factors involved in his or her mind, before typing in the kill command. Don't just take the easy route and say, "He's a killer, he kills." No, he doesn't just kill. He doesn't just do anything. If he kills, he does for a reason and there are factors to that to consider.

[Nyr]

and oh hey - there's Talia, in a cave, resting - and linkdead.

The bounty is on her head. Lord Goombah does NOT want her brought in alive. Talia is armed and dangerous - when she's not linkdead. Maybe she's a mage of extraordinary power. Or maybe she's just a maxed ranger/thug. For whatever reason, it's a bad idea to let her go, because you might not have this chance again.

Do you kill her?

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

You wish up to staff to find out what you should do.  If you don't get a response and the situation is truly as you've described it and the PC is still not responding, put in a request and we'll consider your OOC lenience as IC power (i.e., it is the other player's responsibility to deal with their connection to the game in this modern world of smartphones and internet connections at various locations--so we will perhaps store them and tell them "we'll pick this situation up where it left off and give you the time to react appropriately, but you are not getting away IC just because you lost connection").

As for the original points of this thread, I agree on a lot of it, but there are some issues because the HRPT results in bad relations between two city-states.  If you think Allanak is going to just beat up your Tuluki soldier found near their city and send them away with a warning and an expectation of a public apology from Muk Utep himself, I've got bad news for you, son.  In an actively hostile situation between two major powers, there's not really a "9 times out of 10, this can be resolved without PK."  Maybe 1 time out of 5. 

The rest is appropriate as indicated for tribal roles in the Pah, but that's about the extent of it, and has very little to do with the HRPT or its aftermath.

[ShaLeah]

"All is fair in love and war" the old adage goes.

I can't think of a single reason why anyone would complain about being killed in an HRPT involving war.

There seems to be a lot less killing and danger than there was when I first fell in love with this game and I honestly don't know how to feel about that.

On one hand, I like that characters are living longer and doing more with that life, if in fact the long lived ones are contributing to lots of plotses, items and the game world in general.

On the other hand, I cringe at the thought of player or staff telling anyone they can't or shouldn't PK and I miss the days when it was way more prevalent. I really do.

Don't get me wrong, I think the world is still gritty, but this whole "death shouldn't be the first option" is bullshit. Death is always the quickest fix for 99% of the corruption and betrayal going on in game and that doesn't mean you'll be spared the aftermath of it, the friends coming after you, that mate, that House, that City, that tribe. Considering enslaving someone is now out, it really makes "owning/using someone for the rest of their life for sparing theirs" thing a little more difficult and only a fool would trust someone they are forcing to be indebted.

Most, by FAR most, of my characters die to PK.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

Incidentally the ONLY player complaint I have ever reported involving PK was an unsuccessful one.

[Lizzie]

and oh hey - there's Talia, in a cave, resting - and linkdead.

The bounty is on her head. Lord Goombah does NOT want her brought in alive. Talia is armed and dangerous - when she's not linkdead. Maybe she's a mage of extraordinary power. Or maybe she's just a maxed ranger/thug. For whatever reason, it's a bad idea to let her go, because you might not have this chance again.

Do you kill her?

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

You wish up to staff to find out what you should do.  If you don't get a response and the situation is truly as you've described it and the PC is still not responding, put in a request and we'll consider your OOC lenience as IC power (i.e., it is the other player's responsibility to deal with their connection to the game in this modern world of smartphones and internet connections at various locations--so we will perhaps store them and tell them "we'll pick this situation up where it left off and give you the time to react appropriately, but you are not getting away IC just because you lost connection").

I really like this solution Nyr, thank you. It also addresses the situation when you wish up and there's no response. Sometimes it's something only a clan imm can address, and that clan's staff just isn't logged in at the time. Sometimes it requires a producer - and the producer isn't around, or is busy dealing with something important and just plain can't deal with "individual" issues at the moment. So I thank you for addressing that as well even though I didn't ask it - it's a very important part of the equation. You can wish up til you're blue in the face about something "going on right this minute" but if there isn't someone available/authorized to respond, then you need to know "what do I do now?" - and you answered it very clearly, and I think it's a perfect solution.

So thanks!

[Barzalene]

You should always kill when it makes ic sense. (With the exception of newbies sand those experiencing technical difficulties) You can't justifying paper thin pks as an ooc thrill with a tag line. You shouldn't step out of character to save another player's tender feelings.

[Incognito]

On the other hand, I don't encourage NOT killing PCs when the situation would logically lead to their death. That's ALSO stupid.

I feel like a lot of these points are generally the same thing (#2, #6, and #9). And these are pretty specific. And in these cases, I get the feeling your character would KNOW not to be there.

So, maybe it could be taken a step further by saying, "Would my character be in a certain area if they know there's potential to be killed?" I think I would worry less about others' intent to kill, and more about what your character would be doing to preserve its own life.

This is exactly what my original post was about....

PCs should try and understand what situations warrant "logically" killing other PCs.

Just to cite an example:
A c-elf attacking a non-c-elf in his "turf" of the rinth - cos he has some IC reason - that's logical.
A c-elf attacking a non-c-elf in his "turf" of the rinth - cos there's a turf war going on - that's logical.

But, c-elf attacking a non-celf in his "turf" of the rinth - just cos the non-elf PC is there - that's not logical.

All I was trying to suggest was - PCs should use their good judgement to decide whether the PK is warranted or not. That's all.

As far as whether the non-elf PC should be in the c-elf "turf" of the rinth (or not) - and whether the non-elf should be "preserving" his life by not being in the c-elf "turf" of the rinth - that's something that is always in flux - and dictated by IC turns of events, but perhaps some Staff member can clarify whether they should or should not be considered as "turf" that needs to be protected on pain of death - from time to time.

The alternative would be to consider all lands where your PC does not belong - as killing grounds - by default. And that's fine too - just as long as its made clear to everyone - and everyone starts behaving accordingly.

An apt example here would be c-elf or d-elf PCs who kill non-elves on sight in their respective turfs; when they visit the human settlements/City-States should they expect to be arrested or killed on sight, just for being there? Obviously there shouldn't be double-standards in such situations.

In this case - players probably need to re-evaluate their own tolerances for "foreigners" and RP accordingly.

The original post was in no way to suggest that PKing is bad, or that PCs shouldn't kill other PCs - cos PK'ing is and always has been an integral part of Arm.


Edited to add:
Despite my comments in the above post, in retrospect, I realise that PK'ing (whether logical or not) - can always be justified by a PC (in one way or another).

So, I guess there's not really much more that needs to be discussed as far as taking this argument forward.

Keep
Calm
and
App for
a new PC

[Bogre]

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

Let her live, tell superiors that she was spotted in the cave but fled before she could be hunted down.

Dying while LD sucks.

[Armaddict]

I point and laugh at this thread.

[Vwest]

I point and laugh at this thread.

[mattrious]

But, c-elf attacking a non-celf in his "turf" of the rinth - just cos the non-elf PC is there - that's not logical.