I hate magickers, official thread.

[Belenos]

Alright, lets get back to some semblance of civility.  Post nicely.

[Cegar]

I think that a lot of the issues brought up here are caused primarily by the end of our current world.

People are rushing to try new classes and try out new spells and explore all that they never did or could before. They also may be more twitchy about protecting the lives of their characters.

I predict that most of these problems will sort themselves out with 2.arm as people drift away from the magicker classes and take their time to enjoy the game once more.

[alger]

Now that I think about it, amongst all my characters, the one that brought the most terror was my 0 karma elf burglar.  I think karma classes are over-rated what's really strong are those races or classes that you can only get access to ig.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Before this gets locked.

I just wanted to say.


Don't fear the magicker.
Fear the warrior affected by it.


In all sense people, this is an age-old gripe that somebody posts when they get killed by one.

My condolences. I refuse to argue the system, I like it.

[Agent_137]

Come on baby... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby take my hand... Don't fear the 'gicker
We'll be able to fly... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby I'm your man...

[naatok]

Magick in ArmageddonMud was always supposed to be powerful and fear inspiring....and also rare.

With the changes recently that I'm now reading about it seems that the 'rarity' factor is non-existent....which is going to severely impact the entire gameworld.

I understand that the planned demise of this game-world allows for 'flexibility' for some concepts, but the fact that magickers are dangerously powerful (or can get that way) isn't the real issue here.  The real issue is probably that you're encountering a hell of alot more of them.

I might add that not just a few of these mages won't have the restraint that nearly all magickers used to have.   :evil:

My not-so-humble opinion

[joyofdiscord]

Remember, it was not that long ago that burglars and pickpockets where the ones breaking the mud.  Remember when people used to complain that everyone that sat down at the bar totally lost everything on their belt and every apartment was cleaned out in a week?  People -hated- losing their stuff and clamored for this and that stealthy class being made karma-required.  Now in threads like these, people are declaring they've practically never been stolen from and what's more, they'd love to be.

This "too many magickers" complaint is nothing new, either.  There may or may not actually be more magickers in terms of proportion today in the end days than during other relatively high-magicker times in the game's history.  From my experience not terribly long ago in the elementalist quarter, it was common for anywhere from 1-3 elements to have no PC representation at all.  If this is "too many magickers", I'd hate to play a gemmer when the proportion is "just right."  If anything, I'd say more magickers were needed.  It doesn't help that probably at least half of all magickers die before becoming even moderately skilled.  We're all ready and willing to accept that since the end is coming, this time "too many magickers" is a true and valid complaint, but I remain unconvinced that it's a problem.  Encounters with other magickers in the wilderness were rare from my perspective, and none of the mages I knew lacked appropriate responsibility and restraint in dealing with mundanes.  As usual, though, magickers killed each other with abandon.

Magick is rare in Zalanthas, like a large of coins is rare, like speaking to a noble is rare.  PCs tend to be involved in more important stuff than the average Amos.  In the midst of end-of-the-world plots, which I'll venture to guess, might just involve some magick, it's only natural that magickal roles increase in prominence (but not just magickal roles, Guilders would be another example of a role I'd expect to be more important and active in these times).  

So I don't just think it's tolerable that people might be rolling the magicker roles they've been imagining for years, in niches that won't exist in the new game, I think it's desireable.  Magickers benefit from having other magickers around to roleplay with, and I think this is a time in the game's history where events will naturally tend to "zoom in" on and emphasize the magickal population, among other influential types of people, in much the same way the game has always "zoomed in" on the not-so-destitute-and-malnourished.

So my feeling is that if someone has the karma for a magicker and wants to play one, they should play one.  This goes both for the magicker newbies and the players that have played lots of them, since the former need good examples of play from the latter.

When the new game comes along, mundanes will have a far greater appeal thanks to dual classing and since their social adaptability will let them become far more influential in the long run than any magicker.  Any truly inept players who take advantage of no karma to make a magicker they can't really handle will certainly die off quickly in the unfamiliar world, just like so many magickers die early today.  Those players that are confident in being able to earn karma again if it comes back won't feel any pressing urge to roll a magicker as the game starts, so I think things will balance out well enough.

[Cegar]

Come on baby... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby take my hand... Don't fear the 'gicker
We'll be able to fly... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby I'm your man...

Needs more cowbell.

[manonfire]

Come on baby... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby take my hand... Don't fear the 'gicker
We'll be able to fly... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby I'm your man...

Needs more cowbell.

Done.

[jmordetsky]

Magick in ArmageddonMud was always supposed to be powerful and fear inspiring....and also rare.

With the changes recently that I'm now reading about it seems that the 'rarity' factor is non-existent....which is going to severely impact the entire gameworld.

I understand that the planned demise of this game-world allows for 'flexibility' for some concepts, but the fact that magickers are dangerously powerful (or can get that way) isn't the real issue here.  The real issue is probably that you're encountering a hell of alot more of them.

I might add that not just a few of these mages won't have the restraint that nearly all magickers used to have.   :evil:

My not-so-humble opinion

Seconded. Possibly Thirded.

Restraint being the important word in this post. Karma classes are Karma classes because they can kill in an instant. With great power comes great responsibility.

It appears of late the responsibility aspect has been tossed out the window, on many fronts.

[Krath]

Magick in ArmageddonMud was always supposed to be powerful and fear inspiring....and also rare.

With the changes recently that I'm now reading about it seems that the 'rarity' factor is non-existent....which is going to severely impact the entire gameworld.

I understand that the planned demise of this game-world allows for 'flexibility' for some concepts, but the fact that magickers are dangerously powerful (or can get that way) isn't the real issue here.  The real issue is probably that you're encountering a hell of alot more of them.

I might add that not just a few of these mages won't have the restraint that nearly all magickers used to have.   :evil:

My not-so-humble opinion

Seconded. Possibly Thirded.

Restraint being the important word in this post. Karma classes are Karma classes because they can kill in an instant. With great power comes great responsibility.

It appears of late the responsibility aspect has been tossed out the window, on many fronts.

Thirded, I find it irresponsible, when people rush in with their marcos flaring, and kill
anything in under 1 second. I have done it before and I guess it is probably Karma, but I
have stopped because it doesnt make the game fun for anything.

I do believe however, that people are powergaming more now than they would be if they
knew the entirety of the staff was watching the game. BUT MY MAIN Gripe...About
Magickers is that it is ok for them to spam cast if they want, but the moment a Mundane
spams bash, kick, disarm, training, etc. they are shunned and lose karma. I think that is BS
but I am just a player not an Admin.

[Hymwen]

Note from Sanvean to replace text:

Do not post game mechanics on this board. Do not post lists of spells, branching mechanics, how many times you cast a spell, etc.  The first time someone does it, they will be warned and a note to that effect made on that account. The second time, they will be banned.

This is not a change in policy.  This is the way things have been since I started playing back in 1991 or 1992, when people were swiftly and efficiently banned when they passed around spell lists or words. The rule is to let people find these things out IC.

And since this thread has led to flames as well -- if you see something wrong on the boards, feel free to bring it to my or another admin's attention.  Telling someone they're a twink or evil or whatever doesn't do anything but create long, flame-filled threads, sometimes in reaction to something that the original poster didn't realize was inappropriate.

Thanks,
Sanvean

[Marauder Moe]

Haha!  I know which type of mage that is based off the number of letters in your spells.  


But... that does seem to be an unusually large list for two days played.  Makes me wonder if perhaps rate of learning was increased for the coming end of the game because it sure as hell took my mages a lot more than two days playing time to get a list that big.

[LauraMars]

No. I have experienced similar results in a similar length of time, before the end game announcement.

[Marauder Moe]

Well damn, maybe my magickers just suck, then.  Also I suppose they didn't go out and use their powers for real that often, just holed up in the temple most of the time.  I bet that makes a huge difference too.

[spawnloser]

Well maybe you're just more focused on skill advancement than some of that play magickers and don't want to see them powered down, Hymwen?  I've never had a magicker character branch that much in two days play time.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Edit from Sanvean - Do Not Post Spell Lists and Branching Figures. Thank you.

[LauraMars]

God dammit, do I ever hate the word twink.  Damn it all to Disneyland.

Edit so I actually contribute something: Anyway, compare the two day mage's skill progression with that of a two day warrior of comparable stats/skill usage.  The difference is vast.  The two day mage branches her skill list twice over.  The two day warrior doesn't even come close to branching.

[Nao]

With a character that got about six days old, then died, I got all my starting spells to mon but never branched. Granted, I didn't play the lone mage out, I stuck to my starting place and had lots of fun and interaction along the way.

So yes, it's not like that for everyone.

[Halaster]

Shoka makes a good point, IMO.  Yes, you can possibly spam-cast your way to massive spells in short time.  But that's not the point.  When you do that, you are obviously neglecting a lot of character development in terms of personality, goals, dreams, etc.

The truly memorable mages in my mind are the ones whose personality developed right along with (or in front of) their magick.  The best played ones were the ones who just played the character as maybe not knowing they knew magick, or at least were inexperienced with it.  They'd play out figuring out what they knew, learning it.  They might be at 10 days and have never even cast a spell, or hardly any.  But they were memorable and fun to be around because they had personality.  They weren't just some spell-casting machine.

[Tarx]

There's other reasons to train your magickal abilities than just "seeking power."  I've had characters do it for very simple or very complex reasons that had nothing to do with power.

The majority of gickers I've seen and played with recently are some of the best RPers I've seen.  I've sent them kudos (or if I haven't, I need to check--thought I had).  They all showed incredible restraint in a number of situations involving mundanes.  There is one exception.  But, you know.  Always a bad apple in the bunch here and there.

[jhunter]

Spell information edited out by Sanvean.

[jhunter]

Magick in ArmageddonMud was always supposed to be powerful and fear inspiring....and also rare.

With the changes recently that I'm now reading about it seems that the 'rarity' factor is non-existent....which is going to severely impact the entire gameworld.

I understand that the planned demise of this game-world allows for 'flexibility' for some concepts, but the fact that magickers are dangerously powerful (or can get that way) isn't the real issue here.  The real issue is probably that you're encountering a hell of alot more of them.

I might add that not just a few of these mages won't have the restraint that nearly all magickers used to have.   :evil:

My not-so-humble opinion

Seconded. Possibly Thirded.

Restraint being the important word in this post. Karma classes are Karma classes because they can kill in an instant. With great power comes great responsibility.

It appears of late the responsibility aspect has been tossed out the window, on many fronts.

That staff has said a few times that is not the reason for them being karma classes. It might be the reason for some but for some it is the fact that they are very difficult to play correctly.
Where in the hell does this misrepresentation come from that "all magickers can kill in an instant with a single spell" ? That is just simply not true for alot of them. Maybe at the highest ends of learning it is, but not on the average.

[jhunter]

Anyway, compare the two day mage's skill progression with that of a two day warrior of comparable stats/skill usage.  The difference is vast.  The two day mage branches her skill list twice over.  The two day warrior doesn't even come close to branching.

I believe Halaster and other staff members have said that this is intentional.

[Hymwen]

Proves jack shit, other than if you are a twink. Yes you could twink it out. Get powerful. However twinks do that that regardless of class.

I didn't make that character to become powerful, I did it to see if it was possible. I'm not playing the character any further and I consider it an experiment, so while I do know that "twinking" like that isn't a good thing, it's not like I'm doing it so that I can kill a lot of people.

To me, it's not a question of "should you do it", it's a question of "can you do it", and the answer is obviously a big fat YES. Would you feel comfortable knowing that assassins can max backstab in 5 days (not saying they can) just because you know that they shouldn't do it?

I could have advanced that character even faster if I had done nothing but spam-casting the whole time, which wasn't the case. Your mage is apparently played more or less the intended way, and you don't sound like the type who is just interested in becoming deadly and winning the game. Some players are. In fact I think quite a few players are, judging by what I've seen through my whole time playing Armageddon. There will always be players to whom the most important thing is being able to defeat others, and it's it's not difficult to get to play a magicker. The character you saw was the 2-karma kind of magicker, not something you have to play nicely for 4 years to be granted. By those 2 days, I could survive lengthy combat (not kill, because I still hadn't developed my offensive spells) against creatures that I think most mundanes would consider quite dangerous, probably even for a 10 day warrior or ranger.

I'll say it again. Magickers should be powerful, they should be dangerous and people should have reasons to fear them. But it should not be so ridiculously easy to reach that, because it's the biggest twink magnet I've ever seen. If the way I played my magicker isn't how it's intended (I know it's not), then why is it still possible to advance so insanely fast? I branched before the twelve hour mark! Why is that window for powergaming and abuse wide open and only hindered if an imm is actively watching your boring cave-sitting ass for a good while? I bet the imms have more important things to do than make sure all the magickers are playing nice, I know I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time checking up on hermit mages all over the world because that has got to be the most tedious chore.

Why is the character type that is arguably the one most known for causing havoc and twinking also the one that most easily attains the ability to do so? There are no other characters who can progress through power at such a sickeningly fast rate, with such utter ease and little risk, and that's what I want to do everything I can to change. Apparently it took a real, played-out example to even get people to believe that it was possible.

So again, it's not a matter of whether or not you should do it, because of course you shouldn't. The problem is that you can, and some people do.