Roleplay Rundown..

[Miee]

...

Bah.
As for us "Hardcore RP folks" Excuse me...I was under the impression this was a "hardcore RP" mud...GASP.
...

See.  Grumpy?

No, I was referring to the folks that would sit there and grump and post constantly on the boards that the old way was better and those of us who like the new system aren't real RPers.  The "RP Nazis" that require x amount of emotes before typing kill and 5 line emotes as to how your cloak is dancing in the wind like a well trained Borsail love slave and we all need to conform.  I keep hearing them mentioned.

I for one, don't see anything wrong with designing a PC that's supposed to be very agile, for example.  One just has to keep in mind that the scores won't work out like that.  Thusly, said bendy PC could hurt themselves on logging in, have the agility but no sense of balance, or just play it off as a misleading appearance.  So long as you, the player, are flexible, these things can work out fine.

[X-D]

ME? Grumpy...Nah.

The "RP Nazis" that require x amount of emotes before typing kill and 5 line emotes as to how your cloak is dancing in the wind like a well trained Borsail love slave and we all need to conform

I see them and I start speaking like mr furious off mystery men.

Anyway, Myself, I've never even considered building a char in a manner that requires him to have certain stats to match up, and am even willing to ask staff for a sdesc and maindesc change if they came off too far off, normaly they are willing to do such things is asked nicely and if very early in the char's life. (IE not involved with a lot of people who would notice said sudden change) Often the change can even be minor, sometimes not even in the sdesc, only a few words in the mdesc.

[spawnloser]

X-D, weren't you one of the people griping about how many items a HG could hold for crafting purposes?  Ordering stats is a much better solution I believe, than making everyone able to carry more stuff.

[X-D]

Actually, no, Though I posted on the threads about some fun with HG and low AGI, I did not "gripe" about it and crafting, Sure, it's a pain in the ass if you have a HG who has AGI too low to craft anything but the simplest items, but, well, it is a HALF-GIANT. In a way it makes sense and is EASILY roleplayed, Um, DUH, Me too clumsy!

Or somesuch, Besides, What you state is exactly what I'm talking about when I say people will order to minimize racial stat drawbacks.

Though, Allowing everybody to carry an extra say, 2 items in inv is a simple and contained solution to a problem, and would have little effect on anybody not playing a low AGI race. Though in no way do I think it is important enough to be put into effect any faster then watch was.

[Sir Diealot]

*sigh* 'Hardcore RPers' should want ordered stats.  For the reasons posted above, such as being able to play a character that fits the background you wrote.  ARM IS HARSHers are the ones who want random stats because, without thinking through your character, having a thief who spent his life running, and thus has high endurance, isn't a valid concept to them, unless it make that thief SUCK at everything else, and has him die at 3 days in. Sorry..that's edging the line of flaming, I just get annoyed when people mislabel things.  There is a difference between wanting rp Role Play, where you decide which role you want to play, from good-at-the-profession to bad-at-the-profession, and just wanting random stats because it makes coming up with generic cookie cutter concepts easier.

[Mordere]

Personally, I think that -not- basing a concept around stats is silly. Is it realistic for ubar slow Mr Clumsy to aspire to be an assassin, or even -have- the potential (starting skills)? And some people may say "but that's origonal", and I say it's about as cliche as it gets. Everybody wants to be different. Everybody wants to be unique, and have the most bizzarre concepts. Thank fucking God the imms demand certain things like hairless dwarves and stupid half giants, because I know there'd be people out there wanting to be the first dwarf with hair, and would have some ridiculously complex concept.

I love this mud for it's realism, and it's where the realism stops that I find dissapointment. Like characters knowing who you are even with a generic hood that hundreds/thousands wear, and a facewrap because they noticed your blue eyes and black hair. What the fuck ever. Or, to stay sort of within this post, or at least what I read of it.. characters who are based completely off their stats.

I want to see agile thief types, mainly. No clumsy idiot becomes a professional burglar irl. I want to see tough soldiers even if they aren't particularly strong, fast, or bright.  Imagine an NFL team bringing in a 110 lb, 5'4" punkass and placing him as a tackle. Rudy, anyone?

I agree there can always be exceptions.. but if you're going to ram skills as constants for classes, then there should be some leeway with stats.

Anyways, I'm tired, and fired up, and ranting again.

[Angela Christine]

I still say that rerolls are the simplist solution, if not the most elegant.  Infinite rerolls might be a bit much, but 10 could work.  In 10 rerolls you have a good chance of getting something that is reasonable for your race/age/guild/subclass/concept combination, while still retaining a random element.

It isn't perfect.  There would be a few more AIs and Exceptionals around (but not 10X as many).  The best part of this solution is that it could be implimented immediately.  There is already a mechanism in place to allow a reroll durring the first 2 hours, it shouldn't be hard to adjust that to allow more than one reroll.


AC

[Sir Diealot]

rerolls are the opiate of the masses!

[Akaramu]

A few people argued that if stat ordering was in place, every warrior would pick a high strength or endurance, theives would opt for agility, crafters for wisdom... This isn't really true. After all, by the same logic, every warrior would pick dwarf for his race, while thieves and crafters would all be playing short elves with an ear mutation.

Hmmm, I dont think so. Dwarves arent just about better combat stats, and elves arent just about higher agility for thieves... not everyone wants to have their warrior's career dictated by a fixed focus, or be shunned and condemned by all the human racists. If someone made every of their sneaky characters a mutated short elf with round ears I'd be VERY unimpressed with them.

AC, you were kidding about 10 rerolls, right? You've got to be kidding. With 10 rerolls we'd have a lot more PCs with miracle stats, I find it quite a positive thing that there are soandso many average Joe's. And I'm not even one of those ancient, evergrumpy ARM IS HARSHers.  :wink:

How about 2 rerolls instead on one?

Or, alternatively, how about we assign 'minimum stats' to certain classes. It really does suck when a warrior can hardly hold a spear AND shield, AND wear his helm... realistically, he should have gotten a bit of muscle mass during the initial training of his career. It also sucks to be a ranger who cant use a bow, thats just too harsh. Or an elementalist who is as smart as a box of pebbles.

What I suggest is that 'average' is the minimum stat for certain attributes of certain classes. A warrior could never have less than average strength, a ranger never less than average agility, a magicker never less than average wisdom. This would not increase the chance for an exceptional stat, the rolls for 'poor' and 'below average' would still be there, but automatically be replaced with 'average' for the stats in question.

[Sir Diealot]

NO NO NO! that RUINS the whole idea.

ordering is COMPLETELY different than 'minimum' stats..

If I WANT to play a bungler, I want to be able to order my stats 'wrong' for my class.. If I want to be aver, I want to be able to order my stats AS PER my background.. If I want to play an ub3r character..then I'm being a little twinky, but if it's only once in a while, and I rp it well, I should be allowed to order my stars towards the 'right' way..

Also, if you set str as your highest..and you roll poor poor poor below average.. Strength gets the below average, and your character is a weakling.. but a weakling THAT MAKES SENSE WHEN COMPARED TO HIS BG.

[jhunter]

Or somesuch, Besides, What you state is exactly what I'm talking about when I say people will order to minimize racial stat drawbacks

Yep exactly.

I'm also noticing a trend in people who are arguing in favor of stat ordering to avoid this very valid and relevant point entirely.  :roll:

[Sir Diealot]

Yeah.. I avoided it... except to, repeatedly, say that staff can easily watch for twinks.

Oh wait..isn't that the only part of the argument? Looks like that's dismissed.

[X-D]

Yeah.. I avoided it... except to, repeatedly, say that staff can easily watch for twinks.

Oh wait..isn't that the only part of the argument? Looks like that's dismissed

Oh, Wait, look, yes, Why did I not see the logic the whole time....it only makes sense for the staff to do the work to put in stat ordering so that they can have even more work searching out people twinking with it.

Now, on a less sarcastic note (IE To everybody else) Though as I've said, say no to stat ordering, but, since Sanvean said she and Ness have been talking about it, that means there is at least a minor possibility that it could happen.

With that, I would like to suggest that #1 It be an option in chargen that you can bypass for the nice random method. #2 If you choose ordered stats you get no reroll option. Now, keep in mind, these next to choices, one or the other would be implemented, not both. #3 If you choose total random you can either (my fav) Be able to go back to your first roll if the second set is even worse (I've had it happen) Or have an extra reroll.

Though, I still think stat ordering focuses too much attention on stats, is too twinkable, will cause too much work for no real benefit and in the end will make exceptional stats average thereby helping to make every pc average.

[Delirium]

I honestly do not see the need for stat ordering, even with the reasons presented. The random element is something I have grown to appreciate and something that is very easy to work around, and, dare I say it, work off of. One can easily take the stats a character has and work out what exactly they translate to in an RP sense, during the first few hours of play. If you really want, you can even email the mud to detail it, but I usually just stick it all in a wordpad doc.

Stat ordering is really not something I think Arm needs.. it's just another number to focus on and another thing to watch out for re: twinking. Especially with the racial advantages and disadvantages as they are - sorry, but though I do expect some will be responsible, there will also be many who will make strong elves, smart half-giants, etc, etc. I hate to sound like one of those "grumpy old timers", but being as I'm not, and 5-liner emotes are usually quite superfluous: No, stats really do not matter much. Some, but not much - and the way they do matter relates to character development, not skills.

I just really can't help but get the feeling that a lot of people want to play the 'exceptional heros' - and while I suppose there's nothing inherently wrong with that, having a flawed character can be infinitely more fun, because it immediately gives you a 'hook' to work off of. Off the top of my head - the aspiring Krathi that struggles to remember the most basic formulae, the sly wannabe thief that keeps tripping over his own feet, the tough little warrior that's quick as an erdlu but sticks to knives because a bastard sword is about as big as he is tall. It could be fun..

[Vettrock]

I prefer the +1, +2 or minimum stat level to ensure you don't get the mage with poor wisdom, etc.  I would consider stat ordering to be the next most preferable solution, but I'd rather have minor manipulation than stat ordering.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

People twink out clothes-making. Shit, they twink out idle. Folks will twink out everything. So please, no more retorical !twinking! cries, and just look at the addition it will bring to the game.

I mean, what is the difference between a randomly produced stat line and a randomly produced main and short desc? According to you, nothing, but I bet if that was implemented you would flash fire.

Yes to stat manipulation and/or ordering.

[jhunter]

I would like to suggest that #1 It be an option in chargen that you can bypass for the nice random method. #2 If you choose ordered stats you get no reroll option.

I agree that if it's added this is the way it should be.

And Venomz we are looking at what it will bring to the game -both- positive and negative. To some of us this added potential for abuse is too much of a negative to merit the minor positive affect it would have.

Sure it wouldn't matter much if everyone was human, but there are other races that get their -coded- drawbacks from stats. I know myself that I've thought well this would be much easier if it weren't for the coded drawback...oh wait, it's being harder it what made it fun...if it wasn't, it'd be a form of powergaming.

Oh yeah, and twinks suck too.

[X-D]

Here is another idea, I think I like this one the best.

Alright, instead of stat ordering in chargen you make yoru char as normal.

Enter game, point map then check your stats, Now, at this point you can Either reroll self one time same as now, OR reroll a single stat up to two times. And not two stats once either, Once you pick the stat with the first reroll then it is the only one you can reroll again.

This leaves reasonable balance AND would be VERY simple to implement while allowing people to kill off that one really bad stat.

Keep in mind, I'm still against stat ordering and manipulation...hell I'm against the above suggestion, but not as much as others. Personaly, for 95% of cases (there are some special cases) stat manipulation should be handled through RP, e-mail, logs and staff.

[Avril]

I'll someday role-play an extremely wise, extremely focused dwarven character, who might develop huge philosophies based on the act of chipping rocks, and experiment with so many stonecrafting techniques, that he'll completely ignore the point of getting better at stoneworking. This is a perfectly legitimate dwarf - he's obsessed with trying out everything, in every conceivable way, and finding new unconceivable ways to try out everything. Do I want him to have high wisdom for his race? Of course. It's in the character's nature to discover, but still possess that inflexibility which makes him extremely methodical in his "research". This means he'll be a bit less worthless at crafting than any other dwarf, but he'd still have to practice a lot before getting anywhere. I realize a boost in wisdom might not help at all, code-wise - like Socrates in real life, he might never bother to train his stoneworking skills. Still, it's a valid character concept, and one that deserves to be sustained with appropriate stats. I'm sure many character concepts are like that.

Assuming stat bonuses are the same for all abilities regardless of race (so "exceptional" would always mean +50, for instance), a boost to one stat would mean a decrease to another. By giving himself more strength and less wisdom, an elf would be effectively removing both his racial advantages and disadvantages. I don't see why this would be considered "twinking out", since it would mean losing as much as you gain. This isn't taking role-play into account - people are still going to think your strong elven warrior is a good thief, when that's not exactly true.

Personally, I'm surprised nobody mentioned min/maxing stat advantages. If I were an elf pickpocket, I'd go for AI agility - who needs endurance when you never leave the city, wisdom when you never fail, or strength when you never need to carry around heavy armor? The only problem with min/maxing is that some classes rely entirely on a single attribute, making it too valuable for either the player or the character to ignore. As has been said many times, idiots don't become researchers (unless we're talking industry-funded research, in which case agility is the key trait).

If someone made every of their sneaky characters a mutated short elf with round ears I'd be VERY unimpressed with them.

What about half-elves? You don't even have to be a mutant, and you still get the neato stat bonuses. Sure, it may not be all-out elven agility, but at least you don't have to role-play being anything more than an over-sensitive human, either.

[Delirium]

What about half-elves? You don't even have to be a mutant, and you still get the neato stat bonuses. Sure, it may not be all-out elven agility, but at least you don't have to role-play being anything more than an over-sensitive human, either.

Well, I'd disagree with that, I don't think half-elves are just over-sensitive humans at all.

The half-elven conflict goes a lot deeper than that - and to top it off, they could very well consider themselves more elvish than human. At best, they're misfit freaks that belong with neither but desperately wish they were one or the other, and are constantly - whether subconsciously or purposefully - attempting to "fit in" however their upbringing and past experiences have taught them they should. At the same time, they're usually angry at themselves for what they know they really are, and angry at everyone else because of this - and thus never quite succeeding in fitting in, or if they do, they'll either not be satisfied with it (i.e. even their best is never good enough, because of what they are, etc, whatever), reject what they've recieved outright, or struggle with/against it in some form or another. Of course, the ways that this comes out can be plenty varied so far as interpretation and character personality goes, but it still remains an inherent part of any half-elven psyche.

[EvilRoeSlade]

People twink out clothes-making. Shit, they twink out idle. Folks will twink out everything. So please, no more retorical !twinking! cries, and just look at the addition it will bring to the game.

I'm not concerned about twinking, but I still haven't been persuaded why this is needed.  I'd rather people's descriptions fit their stats than their stats fit their descriptions.

[Sir Diealot]

Then give us our stats before we make the characters.

I'm a proponent of either one.

Oh, and whoever was all uppity and such about the staff having to do more work.. If the staff is doing their job -- reading the backgrounds -- it would take about three seconds to process whether the stats make sense or not...

I have one and a half strong words for all the nay-sayers in the audience.. "C'mooooon."

[Larrath]

"Email the staff if the stat is so bad that it makes your character virtually unplayable in a matter that cannot be repaired ICly (by working out or emoting difficulty or whatever)" is not the same as saying "just bother the staff if you want better stats, man".

If you are playing a professional strongman who makes a living lifting heavy stuff for money and you have 'below average' strength, twice, I don't think it's such a crime to email the staff and politely request a stat-change and including an explaination of why this is so important.


However, if you are playing Amos the Swashbuckler #52341 and you have average/above average strength and it's not enough because you think he should have very good/extraordinary/whatever strength, well, I say, suck it up, lift weights ICly, keep logs (with dates) and send the staff an email after an RL week or two (assuming you train every RL day and have a log) and get your boost.  This is written in a helpfile, it is perfectly legitimate to do this.


As far as I am aware, by the way, your stats are not rolled until after you leave the Hall of Kings.  Type 'score' there sometime and you'll find all your stats are 'poor'.


C'mon what?  Why should you see your stats beforehand?  The idea is to -not- make optimized characters.

[Sir Diealot]

That's not what I've been saying AT ALL.

Work on reading comprehension dude, seriously.

Note: not a flame, simply an observation that he REFUSES to get the point.

[jhunter]

Note: not a flame, simply an observation that he REFUSES to get the point.

I think this is going both ways bud, you don't seem to be getting the point of anyone's reasoning against stat ordering. Your coming across as: You want it, you don't care what negative affects it could have on the game just so long as you get it.

Just the way your coming across IMHO.