Religion in Zalanthas (A player's view)

[Nominous Dirt]

After reading a few of the previous threads, I thought it would be a good idea to delve into the realm of spirituality without giving away any IC information. In the following post, I will look at the history of Zalanthas from a religious viewpoint. I invite anyone in Armland to respond with their own answers or new questions, just remember to keep anything too IC out of your post. All of this information is compiled from the history of Zalanthas.

1) Why would anyone be religious in Zalanthas?

Picture the actual world of Zalanthas, starting with its history, in phases.

Phase One: This Dragon arrives and takes control of the world. Plagues spread and civilization dissolves from Fuedalism into Tribalism. Then, after four-hundred years, The Dragon leaves. Phase One is an End of Times, only there is no messiah or spiritual being who intercedes on behalf of the good. Civilization is crushed beneath the heel of this mythical Dragon, knowledge is lost to the fires of his servants, and plagues take as many lives as the armies of The Dragon. So, during these Dark times, many of the prayers of the populace have gone unanswered. Keep in mind, Evil was never truly overcome in some great cosmic battle, it got bored and left!

Phase Two: Tribal society continues for several hundred years, until Quintus Tektolnes  manages to bring together several tribes into the first true attempt at some form of civilization. He builds Allanak, only to be killed by his son. Throughout this, rumors spread that there might be servants of The Dragon still around, the yoke of The Dragon might not be fully cast off. Phase Two is a phase where the people try to regain some semblance of what they lost. Imagine the type of strength of will this would take, to try and build back civilization in the wake of The Dragon. This is part of the reason why I find it easy to believe that PCs are better than ordinary humans, the only people left to reproduce either possessed great fortitude, might of arms, or a crafty intelligence. One wonders if those who had great faith that some other enterprise would come and save them lived through these times? I highly doubt it.

>>This seems like a good time to wonder about hell. Is there a Hell for the people of Zalanthas? Considering the sandstroms, oppressive heat, high death-toll, and putrid living conditions, I doubt many could imagine a place much worse than this. This was hell, evil ruled here. Consider, then, what it means for a peoples to have no Hell... No supernatural consequences for their actions. No reason at all to fear anything beyond physical pain and discomfort.

Phase Three: Muk Utep arrives on the scene and takes control of the north in a bloody campaign of conquest. Tuluk is built from the ruins of his conquered enemies. The Sun-King Utep expands his kingdom and fights some inconclusive battles with Allanak. Phase Three is the normal movement of early civlization, where warrior-kings gather the strong to them and fight for more land. Utep and Tek built these civilizations, saved Zalanthas from slipping farther into chaos. These are the beings who delievered Zalanthas, not some otherworldly supernatural agents. If anything, this reinforces that you have to get dirty and do it yourself, and rely on your hands, not your faith, to get you through.

Phase Four: Tektolnes confronts a servant of The Dragon and wins. Wins! To a people who have had a combined history of loss after loss against anything dealing with The Dragon, imagine how this must have sounded. Tektolnes and the Sun-King are of the stuff that can not only survive the devastation caused by The Dragon, but can defeat its minions! And then, in the afterglow of this victory, The Dragon returns. As if disciplining a disobediant child, The Dragon crushes a large section of Tuluk and leaves as quickly. Phase Four shows the people of Zalanthas that, although the measures that Tek and Utep have taken are great indeed, it is still nothing when compared to the might of The Dragon.


>>Taken in these four phases, I find it hard to believe that there are any religious institutions taken seriously beyond the worship of Utep and Tek. The rest of history supports the trend seen here, where it is the realworldly forces that resist The Dragon, not something otherworldy. And, however valiant the realworld forces might be, it is still unable to resist the evil of The Dragon.

In conclusion, the people of Zalanthas are living on a world where Evil won and where the only salvation comes from this-world-beings. Prayer to anything other than Utep and Tek would seem like a serious waste of time, and, even if you were to worship Tek and Utep, who cares? The Dragon can still come and crush them anytime he wants. That is the harsh reality of Zalanthas. Hope is as fragile as life, and The Dragon crushes both.

[Marauder Moe]

Nice post, but I wonder what exactly the average Allanaki/Tuluki commoner KNOWS about the history of the world.  Considering that there is no written tradition, stories would become skewed and varied and unrecognizeable as history over the years.

Then again, the central idea is simple enough: the dragon is evil and Muk/Tek are our protectors.  Hard to say.

[Mr.Camel]

A great post, indeed.

There is, however, one point I disagree with.

>>This seems like a good time to wonder about hell. Is there a Hell for the people of Zalanthas? Considering the sandstroms, oppressive heat, high death-toll, and putrid living conditions, I doubt many could imagine a place much worse than this. This was hell, evil ruled here. Consider, then, what it means for a peoples to have no Hell... No supernatural consequences for their actions. No reason at all to fear anything beyond physical pain and discomfort.

This wasn't hell. This was their world, everything they know. They simply wouldn't think of it as such a bad world because its all they've ever known. And they certainly can imagine much much worse.  And then again, they can imagine much much better, too. So I don't see why thoughts of things similar to hell and heaven may not appear in some cultures, excluding the ones ruled by sorcerer kings.

[Anonymous]

People born and living in cities would probably embrace these ideas. People born and living outside of cities would probably not. And there are plenty of tribal groups who have "religion" that has nothing to do with Tek or Muk Utep. There's probably plenty of diversity in those different tribes as well, so not all tribes would have the same beliefs or cultures or religious cultures.

[Nominous Dirt]

Nice post, but I wonder what exactly the average Allanaki/Tuluki commoner KNOWS about the history of the world. Considering that there is no written tradition, stories would become skewed and varied and unrecognizeable as history over the years.

Although the commoner might have little knowledge about the actual history of Zalanthas, I think the main thread of the post still works because of two factors. The first being that Tek is still around, and the second that The Dragon makes recurring visits to Zalanthas. Although most of Zalanthas history is passed on verbally, I don't think it would become unrecognizeable, but definately distorted. It might be easy to underestimate the terror that the average person would have towards The Dragon, and it is precisely that terror that would ensure that if there were any distortions in the tale, it would be that the evils The Dragon commited would be greater.

And they certainly can imagine much much worse. And then again, they can imagine much much better, too.

Good point, I was too general when I wrote that. Hell for a 'Nak commoner and a 'Nak noble might be two different places....although both could be found in the Labyrinth.

[Maybe42or54]

If I remember correctly there is a place in allanak that has murals drawn of the history of allanak.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

I disagree with the original poster.

First of all, as Marauder Moe has pointed out, the average commoner knows basically nothing of the history of Zalanthas  -or- of the Dragon.  What they know of the Dragon, they attribute to Tektolnes, period.  Tektolnes -is- the Dragon, right?

Second, just becuase this is a world where evil "won", that doesn't mean that people wouldn't be religious.  In fact, the harshness of the climate and of the general living conditions would serve to strongly reinforce people's natural religious tendencies.  So what if people's prayers go unanswered?  In the real world, people's prayers go unanswered too, but that doesn't stop them from praying.

Also, I disagree with the question you opened with, "Why would anyone be religious on Zalanthas?"  People are religious just because, they don't need a reason.  We should start off by assuming that people on Zalanthas are by and large just about all religious, and then start asking questions like "What sort of religion would people on Zalanathas have?"  This question is an important one, and it's one that will enrich the game world.  The question the original poster asked is neither.

[Nominous Dirt]

I don't understand where people get the idea that the commoners of Zalanthas would know nothing of the history...especially The Dragon.  The mud states that literacy is restricted from the commoner class. Being illeterate does not mean that a people don't posses a vivid history, it just means that the memory changes over time as the medium (oral recitation) is subject to more interpretation than a piece of text. The vast majority of Europeans during the Middle Age lacked the ability to read and write, but that doesn't mean that they lacked knowledge of a history. Look to the tales of the Saints or King Arthur for proof of my above claim. Secondly, we are taking about -world shattering- events. The commoner might not know that Utep developed his city after Tek, but they would now that every few hundred years -The- Dragon comes to Zalanthas to lay waste. Thirdly, Tek and Utep are still alive! Refering back to an earlier analogy, If King Arthur was still alive, I doubt he'd let his subjects forget that he has been around since the re-establishment of civilization

What they know of the Dragon, they attribute to Tektolnes, period. Tektolnes -is- the Dragon, right?

No. The Dragon is the equivalent of Satan in our world. Tek the Dragon is the equivalent of Genghis Khan. They share similar attributes (cold-hearted, warmongers) but they are not the same entity. We call Bruce Lee the Dragon, but that does not mean he breathes fire and flies through the air, he just summons to the mind's eye a picture of a dragon when he fights. Maybe Tek prays off the fear the Dragon symbol imbodies, who knows besides the imms, but Tek is the one who STOOD UP to the Dragon, defeating one of his minions of the deserts of what's it called. Another thing I doubt he would let his people forget. Nothing quiets the sheep than a reminder that wolves howl in the darkness and the only thing keeping them away is the shepard's fire.

Second, just becuase this is a world where evil "won", that doesn't mean that people wouldn't be religious.

I did not mean that people would not be religious, only that the direction of their prayers would go somewhere else. No otherworldy savior, but rather to agents in the physical world around them, much like the element worship of Druidsl or the worship of Pharohs. But imagine how it would affect your mythos if Evil was winning. In fact, you don't have to imagine. Look at the ancient Sumerian civilization situated between the Tigris and Euphrates river in Macedonia. The two rivers flooded violently and without warning, survival was harsh, and belliegerant tribes abounded on all sides. Their very culture was one of pessimism, where there were no answers for "why" it was simply because the gods were angry all the time, and nothing would placate them. Death was simply an end to toils. In contrast, look to the Ancient Egyptian empire. Located by the steady Nile river, their culture was conversely optimistic. Their Gods were humanlike, life was cyclical, and their afterlife was a better life than today. We are to the far left of the Sumerians in terms of pessimism to other-worldy powers, they have failed time and time again.

People are religious just because, they don't need a reason.

This is the only time I feel you are correct in your post, but, as before, I did not mean to say that the people of Zalanthas are without religion, just that it is not a faith in an other-wordly power but a this-worldy entity. Whether it buy Suk Krath or the Sun King.

This question is an important one, and it's one that will enrich the game world. The question the original poster asked is neither.

Yeah, in case you couldn't tell, I have studied the early religious practices of Western Civilization just a little, and the 'WHY' is -the- most important question asked. There are three steps whenever you study religion. 'Observe, Understand, Explain'. If you took the same approach to responding on the boards, then you might not come to such false conclusions, as you only understand half of my post before you moved on to the explanation.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

I'm pretty sure that, especially in Allanak, a belief that Tektolnes is not the Dragon would be heresy (although that doesn't preclude some people from believing that of course).  It sure seems like most people (esp. Allanak) would believe Tektolnes to be -the- Dragon, and they would have no knowledge of any Dragon besides him.  People would assume that it was Tektolnes who burned Tuluk, for example (and I don't know for a fact even OOCly that it wasn't).  The last appearance of the Dragon before that was many thousands of years ago and a cataclysm away, so it definately makes sense that most people now living in Zalanthas wouldn't have any clue about the 'real' Dragon.

It would be nice to hear an Immortal's opinion about a commoner's knowledge level on the Dragon.

Nominous Dirt, your distinction between 'otherworldly' and 'realworldly' isn't a necessary/important one.  Commoners could easily look on the 'realworldly' Tektolnes (is he even realworldly?  I don't know that for a fact, OOCly), as if he had 'otherworldly' qualities.

You admit that there's no reason for people to be religious, that they just are that way.  So, why do you feel that it's necessary to ask the question "Why would anyone be religious in Zalanthas?"

I maintain that religion and "otherworldliness" would be a very important part of life on Zalanthas.

[Anonymous]

The last appearance of the Dragon before that was many thousands of years ago and a cataclysm away, so it definately makes sense that most people now living in Zalanthas wouldn't have any clue about the 'real' Dragon.  

The last known appearance of The Dragon, taken from the History of Zalanthas: "Year 911
The Dragon appears in Tuluk and an obscure exchange occurs between Muk Utep and the dread beast. At least one-fourth of Tuluk is destroyed by the Dragon. Afterward, the Dragon once again departs the Known World."

Not many thousand years ago, but only a few hundred. And not a cataclysm, but a disciplinary action. So, it definately makes sense that people still know about the 'real' Dragon, because, in the span of societal memory, a few hundred years is an eye blink.

Nominous Dirt, your distinction between 'otherworldly' and 'realworldly' isn't a necessary/important one. Commoners could easily look on the 'realworldly' Tektolnes (is he even realworldly? I don't know that for a fact, OOCly), as if he had 'otherworldly' qualities.

Not necessary or important? Really? I think you don't understand what I mean when I say otherworldly and thisworldly.

Thisworldly: Old testament Judaism believes that the messiah would come and conquer their enemies, subjugating the surrounding countires, and set Israel up above all other nations.

Otherworldy: Christians believe that the messiah will come to bring them to another realm of perfection.

That unimportant? distinction is the basic difference between the two religions.

You admit that there's no reason for people to be religious, that they just are that way. So, why do you feel that it's necessary to ask the question "Why would anyone be religious in Zalanthas?"

Really, I was trying to be nice to you, give you at least some hope that you hadn't totally misread my post. I was wrong and will correct that now.

A brief history of human religion:

Paleolithic man was a hunter-gatherer. He worshipped both his source of and competition for food, animals.

Neolithic man farmed. He worshipped the sky as a male god that fertilized the female earth goddess to produce food.

Mesopotamic man civilized. He constructed cities and learned how to store surplus food. This surplus allowed for others to not have to farm all the time, but allowed them to pursue other trades, such as priest and soldier. Cuniform was developed. A pantheon of Gods were formed, some responsible for craft, others for warfare, but chief was Maluk, who had killed Tiamat and from her corpse built the house where the gods lived. Man was created to take up the gods toil, so that the gods could focus on their heavenly choirs.

Egyptian man cultivated. He constructed great pyramids and gave power to the Pharoh, as long as the Pharoh acted within the divine law. As opposed to the simple Cuniform. The more artistic hieroglyphs developed here. The arts and medicine flourished beside the comparitively placid Nile.

All four examples are religious beings, but -WHY- are they religious? Paleolithic man was in charge of little of his surroundings, instead he revered the animals he hunted or were hunted by as the great mythical agents, as they affected his survival.

Neolithic man learned to plant, he turned away from the mythical beasts and looked to sky and earth as Gods, since the sky and Earth now controoled his survival.

Why did the Paleolithic man change from worshipping animals into worshipping the sky and earth? Because those were the physical factors that controlled his survival. Do you think that it was a smooth transition? I am sure that, during the Neolithic age, there were still some tribes that refused to give up their animal gods and the hunt, but where do you read about them now?

As Neolithic man grew proficient at farming, he began to gain surplus crop. With this surplus crop, he could trade others for things he might need. Weave, clothing, more animals, and basic trade was developed. From this trade came cities, higher population, more bumper crop, and more skilled craft. Why did the Paleolithic man's religion change? Because now, his survival depended less upon the sky and the earth, and more on the flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates, or the skill in war of the warrior-kings.

Egyptian man was Neolithic man down a different branch. Civilization sprang up, but the natural defensive positioning of the land along with the gentle Nile turned out a different kind of person. Neolithic man now didn't have to worry about food, or flooding, or enemies. He had to worry that, when he died, Ra would weigh his heart against a feather and, if the feather was lighter, he would be punished in his afterlife. Here we have the first true occurence of judgement and of an afterlife. Egyptian man feared for his soul, and the man who could keep that alive was the Pharoh, who was like Ra on Earth.

Why was Paleolithic man religious? Because he was completley at the mercy of his food source.

Why was Neolithic man religious? Because he needed rain and fertile ground to feed himself.

Why was Mesopotamic man religious? Because he feared the Tigris and Euphrates, and other enemies killing him.

Why was Egyptian man religious? Because he feared for his afterlife.

Four different reasons why humanity is religious, and four different ways they worship.

Does that answer the question why ask why? If not, I can go into the next four hundred years or so of humanity, but it gets a little more complicated.

[Nominous Dirt]

Didn't intentionally mean to post anon. in above post. Incase anyone was wondering, it was -Me- who wrote it.

[Avril]

Keep in mind, Evil was never truly overcome in some great cosmic battle, it got bored and left!

Ain't the way I heard it. People in any of the city-states might talk about how the dragon was repelled by their respective sorceror-king. Some might even speculate that Tektolnes and Muk Utep are actually servants of the dragon themselves, occasionally fighting each other or trying to break free of his power. Either way, while the dragon may be considered evil by a great portion of the known world's population, you have to consider that his deeds are pretty much on par with those of old-school Yahveh (there may not have been a flood, but hey, most of the world was wiped out). Perhaps some consider him the pet dog of a higher deity?

Also, you're thinking in dualist terms. Who's to say the peolpe of Zalanthas ever believed in a clear division between "good" and "evil"?

One wonders if those who had great faith that some other enterprise would come and save them lived through these times? I highly doubt it.

I don't know of any Christian war criminal who tried beating up heathens with prayer alone. Sure, that helped a bit, but when it came down to giving them the good old fist of god, they didn't expect a big hand to come out of the sky and do their work for them. Faith in "salvation" (or whatever) and a willingness to act aren't mutually exclusive... Certainly not when your "salvation" (or whatever) depends on your actions.

This seems like a good time to wonder about hell.

It is, really. Why do people insist on bringing their zoroastro-judeo-christio-islamo-satanic preconceptions into Zalanthas? The world's already a mishmash of plagiatisms, why go further?

Hell can mean lots of things. Is it a really horrible place, where winds carry the shrieks of lost, tormented souls and shifting mounds of sand can   plunge upon a caravan in seconds? Is it the world where rocks come from and bones fall into, slipping through the sands? Is it a place that grows inside of people's hearts, where evil spirits dwell and snatch away good spirits as some mini-cosmic battle is fought out? Is it an ancient city-state where, because of both greed and incompetence, the crops failed and everyone was forced to either leave or starve? Is it the dark sky, where the dragon's hazy breath pushes the sun away so that he may fly through it unseen? Well, if that's not it, what is it?

Consider, then, what it means for a peoples to have no Hell... No supernatural consequences for their actions.

No. Try figuring out how people can fear supernatural reprisal in the absence of a hell.

These are the beings who delievered Zalanthas, not some otherworldly supernatural agents. If anything, this reinforces that you have to get dirty and do it yourself, and rely on your hands, not your faith, to get you through.

Of course you don't rely on faith, you rely on Tektolnes and Muk Utep, which, by the way, are sorceror-kings. You don't see yourself as being able to build and protect a civilization. Rather, you see yourself as a part of it, as a simple "sheep" in the shepherd's "flock", to put it into Christian terms.

You admit that there's no reason for people to be religious, that they just are that way. So, why do you feel that it's necessary to ask the question "Why would anyone be religious in Zalanthas?"

I don't think his question was "why do people carry a religious feeling?" so much as "how does that feeling manifest?". Petty social instincts might drive people to believe in gods, essentially big strong people who make it rain and shoot lightning bolts out of their asses, while other, more interesting obsessions might generate completely different religious notions. Bear in mind, when designing a religion, that people are always going to assign supernatural traits to entities that seem most fit to bear them: What can breathe? Well, animals and people do that. All right, so this wind... It's all coming from somewhere, so something's gotta be making it, right? Probably a moose. They got big noses.

At this point, someone might come in, show off his makeshift fan and say "well, you know, if you keep turning this little wheel, it can make wind too..." and the two religious philosophers who dreamed up the celestial moose will argue: "Hah! That little thing? It can't even turn by itself! My moose can eat up your little windmill anytime! My moose r0xx0rz, j00r wheel suxx0rz! Beat it, infidel!" At which point the fellow with the fan will insist: "Oh yeah? Well, sure it can't turn by itself! You know who's turning it, you dolt? The big god of windmills, that's who! I mean, seriously dude, you think a moose can stand up to a guy with those credentials? Why don't you get your fucking moose out of this town, before I go pray to my god and tell'em you're an infidel?" The two philosophers ask each other: "Um... What do you think we should do?" And the dude provides the answer: "Pray to your moose. Maybe he'll listen."
And that's how religions were born... Because nobody has any respect for anything besides big powerful people, because humans need to feel they're actually communicating with their deities, and because nobody tries to think beyond the (sometimes false) obvious. Those are three of the reasons, anyway. Religion is a social phneomenon... I'm confident that a large number of brilliant religions have appeared in random parts of the world, only to be stifled by the less-than-brilliant masses. In contrast, because they've managed to fit the perfect parameters that make them "believable" to ordinary folk, the prominent religions of our world are the equivalent of pop music, romance novels or hack&slash MUDs. It should be kept in mind that the Christian religion, which still has tremendous influence in rural regions of the western world, is obvious nonsense for many reasons, including those presented here. Nonethless, it's the kind of nonsense that common people are accustomed to, both because of their powerful social instincts (which fit perfectly well with the image of a tyrant god) and the presence of proud, outright tyrrany in every part of their culture (once more because of social instincts).

In one campaign world that I've been designing, I decided to create religions and see if any cultures would fit around them, regardless of basic human (or non-human) psychology. I managed to come up with a few atheist religions and interesting forms of plutocratic ancestor worship, as well as several forms of worship that completely lacked an "afterworld". It's pretty easy to ignore the whole "gods" and "afterlife" thing and go for more interesting, if less viable, religions or cosmologies, and in fact, I'm betting we can create one, on the spot, right now, answering only a few simple questions. I'll just post my answers here, in order.

1. Was the world always like this? How did the world come to be like this?
Before us, there was only stone and wind - a solitary boulder girdled by an endless swirl of warmth. It was within this warmth that the sun hardened, giving face to the Outer Spirit. The Inner Spirit, meanwhile, concealed its three faces - the orbs of Lirathu, Jihae and Hramisk - into its depths, preserving the virtues of its own half of the world. They cared deeply for each other, and each coveted the other's soul, but neither would agree to leave his own domain and thus embrace the other. After a long courtship of vows and temptations, the Inner Spirit yielded two of his three faces and, in doing so, left the stone weakened to the Outer Spirit's touch. As his two faces flew across the heavens, he watched his old body crumble and sand grow upon his flesh, restrained only by the might of his third face, which he sundered into thousands of small fragments to better watch over the vastness of the world. Jihae and Lirathu now invest the sky with the same virtues the earth once held, while the Outer Spirit persuades her companion to surrender his last face. The reason our world is made of sand is because the Inner Spirit wanted this.

2. What is there beyond the known world? How does the world look like?
We don't know. Some creatures, human or otherwise, in a distant settlement might have found a way to quell the winds, or to make life feed on the wastes themselves. The farther the land, the greater its mysteries.

3. What can die, and what lives forever? Why is there death?
Death brings us to our unity within the reconstructed Hramisk. A face of the Inner Spirit himself will one day form from us, strengthened by our knowledge. It will slowly build upon the sky, as the Outer Spirit intends, while safeguards are left to ensure that the stone world does not completely shatter. Whenever one of us dies, his soul rises to the Outer Spirit, who fuses him with all his brethren in the heat of the sun.

4. Why are there so many kinds of life in the world?
The body of Hramisk was manifold - unlike the living stone around him, it could not split into a thousand equal grains of sand. Some were primal aspects of his soul, like the trees and many animals; we, the wise races, were made from his finest parts, destined to carry out our mission of preserving the earth not simply through our mere existence, but also through the effort of our minds. It is because of this that we should honor and respect our priests, who do their best help preserve the world's stability and guard our passage towards the Outer Soul.

5. How are children born? What are we, really?
We are stone and water, the flesh of Hramisk. The Inner Spirit has spread us -a third of itself- across the world to guard his failing body, so that he may slowly pass into the heavens without incident. Were he to try and remove his final face completely, he would shatter it, along with the remainder of the stone world. Through our priests' rituals and even through our very presence, we ensure that the ground won't crumble into even more sand.

6. What makes people grow? What decides their qualities?
They feed on the creatures of Hramisk, which is what strengthens their own bodies. Were they to eat on things other than Hramisk's own flesh, they would not grow, and the wind would overcome them. The body grows around bones, which persist well after death, and which must be destroyed or tainted in some way before the spirit may depart from them.  Often enough, all it takes is cremation. There are three sorts of qualities: those of the flesh, acquired through life from certain foodstuffs, those of the bone, drawn directly from one's parents, as well as those of the mind, built into the framework of the former two. Without good heritage and good meals, you cannot hope to carry a good character.

7. Is there a purpose to life?
Strive to reach the Outer Spirit as a fulfilled and happy man. Become a jewel of Hramisk, and your glint will endure throughout eternity. You will stand among the most valiant souls, at the reformed sphere's surface, and behold the dreaded wonders of the Outer Spirit. Tend to your tribe and kindred, for they, too, will join you to restore the fourth celestial body; see that others will ascend with virtue, but when they seek to taint your soul and those of others, ensure that they be driven from this world before they cause any more harm. Have no fear, the Outer Spirit has a special place for them within the reformed Hramisk, a place where they will trouble no one.

8. What are pain, fear, pleasure and other feelings for?
They are what keeps us aware of the hardships of our world, and leaves us wanting to perfect ourselves. However, they can sometimes fail, and the way predators attack us shows that no one should rely on them entirely. Instead, we must combine them with the wisdom of our priests, to ensure that our spirits will .

9. How can we affect the supernatural?
Feast, grow and contemplate, hone your emotions towards Hramisk, and gather as much virtue as your body can permit. The rest is reserved for our priests.

10. Who are the sorceror-kings, really? Aren't they... Um... Sorcerors?
Indeed, they are. Like the dragon, they are perversions of Hramisk's soul, flaws within his ancient body, who corrupt and slaughter as they see fit. They have gathered thousands of men into their cities, causing untold damage to the land these people have deserted, and poison their virtue in unspeakable ways. A sorceror-king holds followers just to feed on them, but rather than just steal their essence, he spoils it, warps it and forbids it from leaving the earth.

I'll mention that religious feeling, rituals and such can exist perfectly well without religion... I strongly believe that religion itself is a convenient perversion of pure religious feeling, that the believer spoils his devotion on petty fantasies like gods and spirits.

[Bestatte]

Another easy take on religion, using Avril's questions:

1) Why is the world like this? Was it always like this?

Once upon a time, the world was there. It was always there, but it was lush, green, had water in abundance, and was peppered with thousands of hunter-gatherer types of humanoids who did hunter-gatherer types of things, living in relative peace with their environment and each other. Everyone had various access to the elemental magicks, and no one gave a second thought about it.

Then this dragon came and blew up a few big chunks of it. People who lived in those areas mutated and most of them lost their access to the elemental magicks. Those who kept them, learned greed and began chasing down those without. One of the ones with magicks was in awe of the dragon, and said "woah - this thing is UBER! I wanna be uber too!" So he studied and practiced, studied and practiced, and one day learned sorcery and renamed himself Tektolnes. He told all the other magickers, "Hey - I am TEH UBER SORC U MSUT ALL BOW 2 ME" and put a gem around their necks so they'd have to obey. The ones who didn't have magicks, he told them to just behave themselves and worship him, and no one would get hurt. And so he enslaved a bunch of them and made them build him a city.

Meanwhile in the north...something similar was going on, but they didn't have a Tektolnes type, so things were kinda hunky dory for awhile. Then Tek got the bright idea of expanding, but a guy named Muk said, "Uh..no?" and duked it out with Tek. Muk, being a really uber warrior dood, figured well - this Tek guy has a serious ego problem, and obviously it's because he's a magicker. So - I'm gonna outlaw magicks altogether. None of this gem shit for the north! And so he did.

IN THE MEANTIME: People who didn't live in the cities, didn't really give a flying fuck what Tek and Muk were up to, as long as they stayed out of their neighborhoods. They continued doing their thing, living off the land, creating their own mythos and cultures based on the geography and its flor and fauna. Different tribes rose and fell, and the observant of those tribes would attribute the demise of their brethren to Powerful Forces of Nature [tm]. These PFN were so awesome and ubur, that they decided to call them Gods, or Spirits, or whatever word their tribe could pronounce best at the moment, and religion of the tribes was born.

2) What is there beyond the known world?
If you're talking stellar stuff, there's nothing beyond. The planet, they don't even know IS a planet. It's their universe, and any stars they might observe in the sky are specks of light provided by their gods/Sorcerer Kings so that they could lay on the grass together, hand in hand, and exclaim, "Ohhhh pretty!" before kanking each other silly. Some tribals might think there -should- be more to it than that, and so they made stuff up to accommodate their ethos; "when we die, our spirits burst into bright pinpoints of light, and those stars up there are our spirits" kinda thing. Or maybe they fear the stars and pretend they don't exist so that they don't piss off their Sorcerer-King, who might be annoyed that someone thinks anything is prettier than they are.

3) What can die, and what lives forever?
Everything can die, and nothing lives forever. All matter breaks down, eventually. No plastics in THIS toxic waste dump, dood.

4) Why are there so many different kinds of life in this world?
Allanak version: Don't be ridiculous. What a stupid question. Now go hurry to the Dragon to pray, sun is up and Tek needs his devotees.
Tuluk version: So that we can all ooh and ah on all the pretty things, and count our blessings (praise His Radiance) that we are oh so much prettier than they are.
Tribal versions: as varied as there are "different things" to ponder. Some might think the aggro mobs that aren't coded to eat their victims are a lesson from a god, to encourage the tribe to pay attention next time they go hunting. Some might decide that tregils are the spirits of their ancestors, reborn. Some might decide that gortoks are newly created spirits, who will some day be reborn as people. So you gotta kill'em all to increase your tribe!

5) How are children born?
Uh - see, the guy puts his penis in the woman's vagina, and if Tek/Muk/God Of Fertility thinks it was a proper kanking, the woman will get pregnant. If Tek/Muk/God of Fertility doesn't like one of the two parties, then that party will never be capable of spawning. Or - as a fun twist - might force that party to always produce mutant siamese triplets.

6) What makes people grow?
That which does not kill us, makes us stronger. I'd say that's pretty universal. Criminals are those people who forget this basic tenet and continually mess with a good thing.

7) Is there a purpose to life?
Allanak version: To serve the Highlord Tektolnes.
Tuluk version: To bask in the glory of His Radiance Muk Utep.
Tribal version: Varies depending on the tribe, but usually involves "uh - so that you don't spend every Nekrete dead?"

What are pain, fear, pleasure and other feelings for?
To remind us that we are not, nor will we ever be, Tektolnes, Muk Utep, or our tribal gods. Also to encourage us to make babies..if it wasn't fun, I don't think anyone would want to do it. It's a pretty messy thing to do when there's sand all up in your junk.

9) How can we affect the supernatural?
Tuluk version: You can't, and that's why all supernatural things must die. Immediately.
Allanak version: By devoting yourself to Tektolnes and wearing the gem and serving the South obediently.
Tribal version: Varies depending on the tribe. A simple prayer to Bobo might be all it takes to open a windy can of whoopass on a scrab, or a really complex ritual, complete with bloodletting and other bodily fluids, might be needed to produce a single sip of water.

10) Who are the sorcerer-kings, really? Aren't they..um..sorcerers?
City version: Never question the function of the Sun-king/Highlord. Now go on and finish your gruel before I use it to paste this side panel onto the trunk I just made.
Tribal version: Sorcerer-kings? Meh. Just some overzealous weirdos who play with those stupid city people, and the stupid city people let them. Best not to bother with those guys - they might not be important to US, but those city people will think nothing of wasting your ass if you diss them. They aren't very bright, they stick themselves in their hidey holes all day and night, and they won't bother us in the "real world" outside the confines of the city. Just kinda ignore them and they'll leave you alone.

[Ghost]

Bestatte you ROCK!

And a good thread to archive

EDIT:  What about Sandlord?

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Nominous Dirt-

I did misunderstand when you asked 'why' people would be religious, also your terms "otherworldly" and "realworldly."  When you said 'why', you really meant 'in what way.'  Why didn't you just say that in the first place?  

About "realworldly" and "otherworldly", you should have explained what those terms meant in your first post.  I thought "realworldly" meant basically not-religious, and "otherwordly" meaning religious.  You were unclear about that, and it's not nice to insult someone for not understanding when really, you could have been a lot clearer.  There's no reason to get snippy... I wasn't attacking you personally, I just disagreed with your ideas.

I'm glad we're on the same page as far as trying to understand in what way Zalanthans would be religious.

I do still think you're wrong about the Dragon, though.  But, without an immortal's opinion, I guess we don't know for sure.

[Angela Christine]

I once saw a Nakki Templar claim to serve the Dragon, and personally I found it very jarring.  Tektolnes' god-name is The Highlord, I don't see a reason for him to change that.  Maybe he is A dragon now, perhaps as powerful as The Dragon of legend, I think that is enough.


AC

[Reverend Jeff]

Hmm... you know, I kinda just glanced over it at first, but I have to admit that the probing the idea of what kind of consequences would result from a world without supernatural punishments (i.e. "Hell") is actually starting to bother me.

Sure, it's a psuedo-Hobbesian idea, what with that whole assertion that people are going to misbehave if they don't have consequences to their actions, and, even if I don't agree with Hobbes (Much more a Rosseau man, myself.  Go, noble savages!), I can follow his reasoning.

Two things, though:

Number One (or "Why Hobbes would have disliked this"): Take a look at how many countries currently rule using the threat of supernatural punishments as a means of keeping citizenry in check.  The last place this was really done with Haiti and, even there, it was coupled with other persuasive things like torture, death threats and the like.  If you're working from a Hobbesian model, you keep people in check through strict laws, not telling people they're going to go to hell if they don't do what you want.

Number Two (or "Who needs hell anyway?"):  Much like the oft-made assertion, "No matter what religion you belong to, you still pray to some type of God," the implication that people who concieve of some kind of eternal supernatural punishment act morally because of said punishment is simply wrong.  It's easy to point out the ways that believers in a "hell" commit immoral acts (priests who molest little children, people who murder doctors that perform abortions, both Israelis and Palestinians in their little conflict and even, say, those individuals who piloted planes into the World Trade Center).  But, instead, think of all those wonderful religions out there that don't believe in some plane of existence specifically intended for punishment.  Zen Buddhism and Taoism are two prime examples (I'd mention Judaism, but there's been a whole heck of a lot of different afterlife-type beliefs in the religion, as I seem to recall).  Neither of those religions particularly needs an afterlife to make sure that its practitioners act accordingly. I'd launch into a big dicussion about both religions but, heck, that's not needed.  They just don't believe in hell.

I hadn't actually intended to make a suggestion about what types of religion might flourish in Zalanthas, but an interesting one I'd like to see there is some form of Mahayana Buddhism (I'd say Zen, but we already have enough people who act with no-mind and speak in riddles playing the game ).  The assertion that life on Zalanthas must particularly suck just smacks of the Four Noble Truths and, actually, Armageddon itself kinda follows a pattern of reincarnation, with each player creating a new character when they die and acquiring Karma.  Arguably, we're not all seeking Nirvana (Usually, most players seem to be just looking for a little fun and the chance to use the phrase "The spice must flow!" once in a while.  Or is that last one only me?), and, granted, the goal in most Buddhism is to remove yourself from the karmic wheel and, in doing so, stop the cycle of reincarnation (Which, I guess, might be becoming an Imm or something).  But, man, if Zalanthas is really so bad, then the worst idea imaginable would be that you'd get reborn once you died and have to again live through the same harsh conditions.  

Hmm... actually, it'd be kinda fun to start some religious encampment far enough away from the two cities that you wouldn't be bothered.  Then, every so often, you could send a person into the city streets to preach and try to acquire more followers. Yay!

[Bestatte]

Bestatte you ROCK!

And a good thread to archive

EDIT:  What about Sandlord?

Those who worship the Sandlord never talk about him in polite company. Those who don't worship him, don't recognize his existence. He's the ultimate "Don't ask, don't tell" example which probably prompted the armed forces of the USA to adopt the same slogan.

In otherwords, he really -is- that powerful.

[spawnloser]

Jeff, there is a society in game that absolutely reaks of Taoism...a couple in fact.  Is that good enough for you?

[Reverend Jeff]

Right, but we don't have any scientologists yet.

Of course, given that a majority of the population isn't literate, it's gonna be kinda difficult to get a group of people to follow a best-selling author. Hmm.  Whiranetics?  Kankanetics?  I dunno.

[My 2 sids]

To be honest, I always figured there was no religion in the game, because players didn't want to mess with religion (last I heard most players here were atheists anyway).  To me, it would make perfect sense to have religion in game.  

The game supports a system of government that claims supremacy based on being "chosen".  To be chosen would imply that "someone"/god or goddess is choosing.  Rewards and punishments already are credited to those who work for this supernatural god-like figure.

Religion is a way to explain the way the world works.  Many times cultures without much education will have very complicated religions and suppressions.  In otherworlds, I could  see the world as supporting a very religious and superstitious environment.

[Angela Christine]

No matter what they believe happens after death, nobody can ever really know.  That helps keep people wanting to live.  

If the afterlife was wonderful and penalty-free, then why keep living in this hellhole one more day?  Either the afterlife is not necessarily wonderful, or you have to do something special to get to the good bit.  Maybe you only get to go to the good bit if you die in battle, or live a moral life, get proper funeral rites, or resolve all your fetters.  So then what happens if you don't do those things?  Do you go to a bad place, evaporate into nothing, get reborn to try again, end up working eternally as a servant for people who did the right thing, or something else?


I think it could be a mistake to focus too much on the afterlife.  Sure, Christians and ancient Egyptians were obsessed with eternal life, but that isn't a necessary part of religion.  Jews don't obessess over the afterlife, their religion is more concerned with how to live today, not what happens next.  Wiccans don't make a big hoohaw about the afterlife.  Everybody knows that Buddists are into reincarnation, but their day to day religious activities don't revolve around dwelling on their next life, not when there is a perfectly adequate life to deal with right now.  


Things Zalanthans might believe in:

-- Controled undead.  Animated bodies that may or may not have any mental/spiritual connection to their former lives.  Often regarded as walking meat.

--  Restless dead.  Ghosts or spirits that linger in a place and may do unpleasant things.  They may be jealous of the living, or hungry,  or simply lost and confused.

--  Natural spirits.  These may not have ever been humanoids, they aren't necessarily the spiritual reminent of something dead.  They could be an ordinary part of nature, awareness without physical form.  Natural spirits may be playfull, tricksy, inimical or benevolent.  A small whirlwind (dust devil) or grass that sways for no apparent reason could be the sign of a natural spirit.  Often associated with untamed wilderness.

--  Elemental spirits.  Similar to natural spirits, but manifesting one particular element.  May be able to travel to and from the elemental planes, or be the expression of an extra-planer being on this plane.  Generally not hateful of humanoid life, unless trapped on this plane by foul magick.

--  Ancestral spirits.  Not precisely ghosts, and not restless, these spirits are part of your ancestors that did not die.  They watch over you, and may occasionally be able to help you or slap you upside the head.  If you believe in ancestral spirits you probably do little things to keep yours happy, to ensure that they do not become dangerous restless or hungry spirits.


These are more the realm of superstition than religion, but I think these would all be reasonable superstitions for people in Zalanthas.


Angela Christine

[EvilRoeSlade]

I once saw a Nakki Templar claim to serve the Dragon, and personally I found it very jarring.  Tektolnes' god-name is The Highlord, I don't see a reason for him to change that.  Maybe he is A dragon now, perhaps as powerful as The Dragon of legend, I think that is enough.

Exactly one year after the beginning of the siege of Allanak, Tektolnes reappears in the guise of a dragon and breaths death upon the sieging army - the army ceases to exist. Over the course of the next few years, a temple is built near the entrance of the city, in which the newly formed white-robe templarate preach the worship of He Who Rescued Us, the Mighty Dragon Tektolnes.

That was probably me.  Just a friendly reminder not to tell the Templar how to be a Templar.

[Angela Christine]

Exactly one year after the beginning of the siege of Allanak, Tektolnes reappears in the guise of a dragon and breaths death upon the sieging army - the army ceases to exist. Over the course of the next few years, a temple is built near the entrance of the city, in which the newly formed white-robe templarate preach the worship of He Who Rescued Us, the Mighty Dragon Tektolnes.

That was probably me.  Just a friendly reminder not to tell the Templar how to be a Templar.

Maybe, maybe not, it was more than a year ago.  I am not bothered by calling the Highlord "the Dragon Tektolnes".  It is just when it is "The Dragon" period that it confuses the issue unnecessarily.

AC