Petty and Clan RP, House Competition and much much more

[Quirk]

I would argue that this is still quite true and in fact is still the case.

The last point was very much more of a side note than the main thrust of the argument, and I'd rather that responses didn't focus on it, although I think it's a useful test of players' perceptions. The main points I made dealt with the static nature of the current clans and the lack of competition between them.

I agree that the huge, unwieldly clans we have are mostly far too large for players to influence. I would argue that this reduces the enjoyment players have when playing in these clans; the patience needed to be able to alter the clan from within is vast, and those who don't manage to keep characters alive for a long time end up feeling they never made any impact.

There aren't many halfway points between player-run clans, where the players get to decide everything the clan does, and the big Houses, where the players have little influence and that gathered over months or years, as things stand. The Byn could be said to qualify size-wise; PCs not infrequently rise to a level not far short of ultimate leadership - but it is the exception among clans rather than the rule.

Quirk

[Quirk]

As Archimedes noted, only two things are truly necessary to move the world - a lever long enough, and a place to stand.  When I read threads like this, my personal perception is that people understand that it is very difficult to change the world of Armageddon, and that rather than putting more effort into changing things, they'd rather lower the bar.  Rather than discussing it at any more length, I will simply say that I would be disappointed to see that happen.  You are not important in the scheme of things.  It should be and is possible to rise above that simple assertion, yet the stark existentialism of Zalanthas is part of its appeal.

There are a multitude of virtual clans in the world that PCs could have visible effects on. Clans which are smaller than the Houses, yet more than a half-dozen PCs. I don't think anyone's suggesting moving the world as a whole - they'd rather have organisations where PC members can readily make or break alliances with other clans, where conflict is decided at a PC level rather than at a docs level.

On conflict - whenever I see people saying "there isn't enough conflict", I take that to be saying, "not enough pkilling going on."  No, I don't think the two are equivalent, but yes, I think that quite a few Arm players consider them to be so.  Pk is common.  I see it all the time.

So do I, but I see it for all the wrong reasons.

I don't see a lot of PK to further clan goals. I see a lot of PK to avenge minor insults. This is not clan-to-clan conflict. It's sometimes frustration at the lack of clan-to-clan conflict, perhaps.

Quirk

I disagree with your assertions and here's why: in the past few years I've seen a number of clans reach the levels of success you're saying aren't possible, including establishing mercenary companies, a start for a new House, and two schools. (As well as at least one person becoming an elemental - I think I've seen five of these in the course of my time on the game.) All of them player driven and organized, and which wouldn't have come into being without the players who got them going and kept them running.

It doesn't depend on the players. It just depends on if the imms will support your idea or not.

On conflict - whenever I see people saying "there isn't enough conflict", I take that to be saying, "not enough pkilling going on."  No, I don't think the two are equivalent, but yes, I think that quite a few Arm players consider them to be so.  Pk is common.  I see it all the time.  You know what I haven't seen?  A bard who gets hired by a noble House, gains the favor of the nobles, and then proceeds to compose and sing satirical ballads about other Houses and nobles.  And you know, I don't actually think I'll be seeing that sort of thing.  It takes a bit of time and effort to set up, some planning and forethought to carry out well, and it won't result in instant gratification.  But... I'd be willing to be proven wrong.

Talk, eventually, is cheap. You can sit and plot and plot and make subtle barbs until the mud closes down. So what. No one has the balls to do anything about said barbs. When does something happen? All the Houses sit around subtly barbing each other's good name. But no one does anything other than toss out a few subtle barbs of their own. It seems to me lately, everyone is being encouraged to do nothing but sit around and talk about doing stuff with out every actually doing anything.

Raiders are bad. Bad. We will crush you for it. There will be IC consequences! Yet, you go outside and its a picnic. There is little need to hire escorts other than for appearances. Let there be no conflict other than between imm-driven plots. You are not important enough to start up any conflict or do anything useful. Go to the tavern and sit and be glad you can. Actually accomplishing something is looked down upon in favor of Rping you did something. Why leave the walls to kill that critter. Just Rp that you found one and killed it and emote doing so and they can emote receiving it and emote giving you coins and you can emote buying something to fill your belly. Yay! I am not against the bard idea. But if everyone was a bard doing that. The horror. Someone somewhere needs to be able to open up some OPEN conflict between powers that be.

Or else l et the MUSH-like tavern-sitting MUDSEX fiesta begin.

[RideTheDivide]

I'm not sure that many of us are qualified to say that its not possible to rise in the ranks of a major house and change things.  Very few people have played in a major house for the amount of time it would take to do so.  You'd realistically have to be around for at least 2-3 RL years I would think before you'd be of the stature to "move the world" in a house.

[Anonymous]

I don't think we're saying the same thing at all. Quirk says:

Quote:
As a last point, I'd like to contrast this little quote, showing how far things have changed in the last few years - would anyone consider it still to be the case?

Quote:
help armageddon wrote:
6) Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
barring the ludicrous. If your character sets up a mercenary company,
he/she may one day lead an army of loyal soldiers on an assault of one
of the great city-states. As a magicker your character may one day become
a fabled elemental being. Burglars may reach levels of affluence beyond
imagination, and merchants may likewise become so rich as to own their
own merchant house and dominate the world's economy. The limits are
truly whatever you can imagine occurring.  



I would argue that this is still quite true and in fact is still the case.

Yes...it's true...although every unlikely and nearly immpossible if you are a part of the -coded- clans which I think was the point. I've yet to see anything about any of the coded clans get changed by pc influence in a long time...a few minor whoopdedoo things.

The way some clans are today is because players in the past were allowed to influence them in some way..today that is not the case,IMHO.

[wizturbo]

I know from my limited experience, there are higher goals within the Merchant Houses.  You don't see them without digging *deep*, because they aren't public knowledge.  Sure, they want to make money, but do you really think they maintain their monopolies on polite words?  

As for people in the clan...you still might not see any higher clan goals, because the leadership doesn't trust you.  Hell, most of the PC leadership in clans is lower tier, as you start working your way up the ranks you'd be surprised how much goes on behind the scenes you were never aware of.  A private in such and such clan's guard isn't going to know much of anything about the clan's higher political goals, a sergaent probably wouldn't either but might get a tiny taste of it from time to time if they're perceptive.  Those who are on the operating end, rather then military, might see more of these plots, but even then only if they ascend through the ranks.

Knowledge is not something spread around in Arm, you gotta dig to know whats going on behind the scenes.

[Anonymous]

That isn't necessarily digging...that's just sticking around through the boredom long enough to get to the good stuff and that's if you don't die or retire your pc from boredom.

Personally, it doesn't seem worth it to me to have to play the same pc through 2RL years of boredom day in and day out to get to the good stuff, when you could start out in a non-coded clan and get right to it.

I'd had alot more faith in the coded clans until I spent this much time in one, seems the only way to create any excitement is to make a pc that will never rise in the house because they are constantly causing problems and breaking the rules....but then again, they won't live long because most likely they will be killed off anyways.

It's really messed up that way, make a pc that is a good employee and you get nothing...make one that is a shitty employee and you get loads of fun.

[Ghost]

My opinion...

I agree with Quirk about the Clan goals, Petty goals and such.   It might be a relation like "As the clan gets bigger,  the individual gets more on petty goals".  Or "As the clans get bigger, it is less likely that an individual can make a significant effect on the overall house" and that would be a very realistic statement.  If there are thousands like you, you are not something unique for your clan.
My opinion about the houses:  If you are in a big house, you do not feel the real harshness of Zalanthas.    You can live without seeing "you are thirsty" message, and yet, you usually dont have an influence on the clan. You are more likely to be one of the -common- members.  

Come to the small scales:  Lets say you and a dozen more PC have a clan.  Now a single boss mob, or a pack of gith might be the very end of this group.  You really would have to work hard for the existance, but a PC can raise to any rank in this organization.  Having a conflict, or forming an allience with another small organization are all readily available options for this clan.

Having these options, I guess it is really a give and take between these.  You choose your option and play along.  In other threads, there had been some ideas like, closing the big houses  to PCs, or closing some houses...  I am totally against it.  Because, there is no reason why I should not have the option to play a part (even if it is really a small part) in a big organization.  

And I see no reason why a world like Zalanthas should not have Major cities, Major organizations and such.  So I dont agree with knocking down the cities either (Even if this is just brought up as a joke) If you really want to play a tribal PC who is totally concerned on survival, you always have the option to do so.  All you need is a some people in agreement with you.

And about the help file:

Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
barring the ludicrous...

I believe this holds true, provided you are trying something realistic.  If you are trying to take over Allanak, which has a population like 500k, with templars, magickers, a powerful military force, you should at least reach the same numbers. If you are trying to make a mercenary group that will be the competitive of Byn, you should begin by gathering a 500 people or so, be it VNPC, NPC or PC.  If you are trying to reach to the leadership in a big organization, you should probably beat down all other VNPC, NPC and PC candidates.  You can list all the possibilities...

These are all that come to my mind for now.  I dont know how much I derailed the thread, but I could not help.. It is 4.00 AM in the morning :shock:

[Unicorn]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm glad you didn't go for solutions yet, Quirk, because I don't think there is anything to fix.  Since other people have already disagreed with your assertions that clan goals RP is dead, that there is no inter-clan conflict and that what little conflict might exist is never seen by the rank and file, I won't even go there.  So, putting aside whether these assertions are even correct, my main quibble is over whether anything needs to be fixed.

Your whole argument seems to be based around a premise that "clan goals RP" is far superior to "petty goals RP".  Even your name for it implies this (since petty, in addition to meaning simply "minor", connotes something that is of small importance, inconsequential and trivial).  RP arising from self-interested goals can have quite a bit of consequence, can involve quite a number of other players and can have far-reaching effects. Then there are the self-interested goals which merge and meld with clan goals; those which arise from the self-interest of an individual whose personal interests are inextricably bound up with the interests of his or her organization.

A Borsail noble's personal goals are very likely going to converge with the interests of her whole house or, at the least, provide some benefit to the house.  And the nature of those personal goals will, in no small part, be shaped by the very fact that she is a member of the Borsail family.

...there is no real reason to have the Houses if they do not provide any extra opportunities for RP.

I think they do provide extra opportunities by virtue of the fact that they help define who people are.  The Houses gives us a rich history and set of traditions which help to focus an individual's goals, to say nothing of how being in a certain house will bring with it traditional enemies and allies and colour how our PC is viewed by others.

"Petty goals RP" may not involve wars nor culminate in world-changing events. But, personally, I am glad that the vast majority of the players do not have the power to effect these kinds of things. When I first started on Arm eight months ago, the thing that impressed me the most was that people dared to play the losers, the inept, the hopelessly stupid, the mundane.  Not everyone was striving to be the super-powerful knight or the charismatic leader that people the lesser muds out there.  Similarly, I find it a good thing that one player in a clan, or even a small group within a clan, has small hope of changing, in just a few IG years, the focus a House has had for decades upon decades.

[Tamarin]

I agree that petty goals can have widespread consequences, but most people's petty goals are the same.  Get 'x' amount of sid...by 'y' items with it...get a house or apartment, maybe a spouse.  Blah blah blah.  Nothing interesting.  I want to see someone -move- me with some sort of creative ambition, even if its just a personal quest of some sort.

[jhunter]

I think they do provide extra opportunities by virtue of the fact that they help define who people are. The Houses gives us a rich history and set of traditions which help to focus an individual's goals, to say nothing of how being in a certain house will bring with it traditional enemies and allies and colour how are PC is viewed by others.

"Petty goals RP" may not involve wars nor culminate in world-changing events. But, personally, I am glad that the vast majority of the players do not have the power to effect these kinds of things. When I first started on Arm eight months ago, the thing that impressed me the most was that people dared to play the losers, the inept, the hopelessly stupid, the mundane. Not everyone was striving to be the super-powerful knight or the charismatic leader that people the lesser muds out there. Similarly, I find it a good thing that one player in a clan, or even a small group within a clan, has small hope of changing, in just a few IG years, the focus a House has had for decades upon decades.

The problem is, I think...that nothing is ever done with this.

It's more like all you get is current stability, more background stuff but you aren't allowed to do anything with any of it.

This is stifling to those of us that prefer to play pcs that actually do something with their lives rather than be content to sit around in taverns and mudsex.

Man, if I wanted to play a nobody will never do anything truly important I can go back to my real life.

[crymerci]

We can't all be LoD.

[jhunter]

We can't all be LoD.

I'm afraid I'm not getting you.

[Tamarin]

If we lived long enough, maybe we could.  That also has comething to do with it as well, though that's no one's fault.  People die too often before they can become well-enough known for people to give a shit.  This is not always the case, of course...I can think of two or three immediate examples in the game world right now.  And to be honest, none of them are clanned in any way shape or form.  I.e. they aren't tied down to a boss, and thus they can do as they wish, and talk with who they wish, and go where they want.  Freedom is the catalyst great things, in my opinion.

[SailorMars]

What's an LoD?

Anyway, this may be so for some groups, but speaking from experience, there's some imm-run clans that have the larger goals, and are persuing them. Of course, whether they succeed or fail is entirely another matter with countless factors all the way from IC to OOC. An example of both would be IC getting all the moving parts in position to pull off something substantial (probably taking years in game), and OOC the immortals allowing for it to occur...

I'm guessing by their nature most uber plans would and do fail. There's a reason things are the way they are and rarely change: Powerful people and groups are damn cunning at staying that way, or they'd be dead. Maybe my cup is half full, but I'd imagine if PCs organized something serious, with the imms having full knowledge, and their chance of success was realistic with all the hidden variables, they'd be given a shot. Of one thing I'm certain: Sure as heck makes for fun RP to try.

[wizturbo]

That isn't necessarily digging...that's just sticking around through the boredom long enough to get to the good stuff and that's if you don't die or retire your pc from boredom.

Personally, it doesn't seem worth it to me to have to play the same pc through 2RL years of boredom day in and day out to get to the good stuff, when you could start out in a non-coded clan and get right to it.

I'd had alot more faith in the coded clans until I spent this much time in one, seems the only way to create any excitement is to make a pc that will never rise in the house because they are constantly causing problems and breaking the rules....but then again, they won't live long because most likely they will be killed off anyways.

It's really messed up that way, make a pc that is a good employee and you get nothing...make one that is a shitty employee and you get loads of fun.

I completely disagree.  Just staying alive is a minor part of getting invovled in more intricate and secret plot lines.  Think real life.  The majority of people go about their daily work and aren't involved in any of the behind the scenes politics.  The same is true for Arm.  If you want to get into that behind the scenes stuff, you need to dig into it.

[jhunter]

I dont know...I would think digging into it if your not being involved in it...could just get you killed.

Also, just knowing about it doesn't make it useful or exciting.

Whoohoo! I -know- stuff....ahahahaha...eheh...errm...

It doesn't mean you are going to be involved in it or get any enjoyment out of it.

[crymerci]

LoD is an exceptional player who has enacted world-changing events, sometimes without even being clanned.

[wizturbo]

I dont know...I would think digging into it if your not being involved in it...could just get you killed.

Also, just knowing about it doesn't make it useful or exciting.

Whoohoo! I -know- stuff....ahahahaha...eheh...errm...

It doesn't mean you are going to be involved in it or get any enjoyment out of it.

Yup!  It can get you killed!

Thats realistic though right?  *grins*

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
I dont know...I would think digging into it if your not being involved in it...could just get you killed.

Also, just knowing about it doesn't make it useful or exciting.

Whoohoo! I -know- stuff....ahahahaha...eheh...errm...

It doesn't mean you are going to be involved in it or get any enjoyment out of it.


Yup! It can get you killed!

Thats realistic though right? *grins*

Uhmm, yes...but it's no fun if they just up and kill you off for knowing.

The point was to get involved in it, not be collateral damage.

[Callisto]

Quirk summed it up perfectly, just like always.

[Quirk]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm glad you didn't go for solutions yet, Quirk, because I don't think there is anything to fix.  Since other people have already disagreed with your assertions that clan goals RP is dead, that there is no inter-clan conflict and that what little conflict might exist is never seen by the rank and file, I won't even go there.

Just as well; you might want to reread the responses in this thread and see how much disagreement there really is.

A Borsail noble's personal goals are very likely going to converge with the interests of her whole house or, at the least, provide some benefit to the house.

Having seen a number of nobles at work over the years, I would strongly dispute that. In fact, the tendency of nobles to quarrel with people that notionally they're allies with leads many personal-level feuds to be directly detrimental to the House, though on a scale too small to affect it.

"Petty goals RP" may not involve wars nor culminate in world-changing events. But, personally, I am glad that the vast majority of the players do not have the power to effect these kinds of things. When I first started on Arm eight months ago, the thing that impressed me the most was that people dared to play the losers, the inept, the hopelessly stupid, the mundane.  Not everyone was striving to be the super-powerful knight or the charismatic leader that people the lesser muds out there.  Similarly, I find it a good thing that one player in a clan, or even a small group within a clan, has small hope of changing, in just a few IG years, the focus a House has had for decades upon decades.

You're passing too quickly over a couple of things here. Firstly, there's no recommendation that players should get to easily change the world, merely a cry for clans of a size that players can realistically affect.

Secondly, hack and slash muds are not the only nor indeed the obvious competitors to Armageddon that bear looking at. I came to Armageddon myself from Harshlands, an RPI which was at the time probably the second largest worthy of the name, though I suspect SoI may have overtaken its numbers since. To many Armers, it's seen as a "dull" place to play. It remains utterly excellent at providing mundanity. Few have positions of power or affluence, certainly none on a scale that can affect the countries of the mud; probably the majority are apprentices and journeymen working in small shops. As of a of few years ago, it hit a level of stagnation that was exceptional even by its own standards.

The problem was largely the problem which is coming to affect Armageddon now, for different reasons. In the main location of play, a bustling city, most factions had no real reason to be at one another's throats; no seed for conflict existed, and players didn't have the power to sway their faction's view of others. The world in which it was based was inherently less unfriendly than Armageddon tends to be, and people were perhaps more realistic than some are here about what sort of provocation it takes for one person to be driven to murder another on personal grounds. Such conflicts as arose were minor and easily settled without bloodshed. There were areas certainly where gripping do-or-die RP was to be had, among the organised criminal element and the militia who fought them, and even in the midst of a city that provided nothing interesting day-to-day for most of its PC citizens I managed to get sucked into a plot which remains one of the best RP experiences I have ever had, but to focus on the exceptions would be a grave mistake.

To pause a moment in recounting the circumstances, Tuluk is speedily moving in the same direction. I think people are coming to realise that murder is a bit over-the-top as a response to a half-elf spilling a drink down your front, and we're going to see personal conflicts grow more realistic but also more subdued. The open friendliness is already there, however people may be structuring their thoughts underneath. It is of course far from "stagnant" yet, and there's thrilling RP to be had still if you're willing to play risky roles such as spies, or shake up the political landscape until someone overreacts and attempts to kill you, but there's no suggestion that the leader characters are capable of having a significant and lasting impact on their own immediate surroundings, never mind the world (and when I say "significant", I mean greater than merely managing to have another noble killed).

Harshlands' problems of the time were significantly alleviated by a push to drive most of the playerbase into a smaller frontier town; analogously, a shift from 'Nak to Storm or a place of a lower population still. The initial plans were to  fill the ruling Council of the town with PCs, a goal which I think was only ever half accomplished (I left midway through these changes) and to activate and support player-controlled factions with views and goals diametrically opposite those of a large section of the characters already there (which was a distinct success and led to sustained levels of ongoing tension punctuated by the odd extremely bloody incident). Of course, it didn't lead to the larger city location being abandoned utterly, but most voted with their feet. PCs might not have been able to affect the large cities, or the countries round about, but they could be big fish in the smaller pond and the quality of PC intrigue improved astoundingly.

Armageddon is not Harshlands. It has never yet reached the dearth of conflict that afflicted Harshlands at its worst. It is almost by definition a far harsher world. Nonetheless, the static relations between clans and the large numbers of people in them who do not have to worry where their next meal is coming from or how they'll survive is corroding that harshness, and the resemblance is growing.

It will always be possible to raise conflict by departing from the norm; by being the rebel, the troublesome employee, the scoundrel. If that's what you have to do to find conflict though, something is lacking.

Quirk

[Bestatte]

I've seen leader types try to make 'big deal' things happen. A couple that I knew about, didn't plan it out very well, didn't put much thought into it, didn't consider the consequences. They only thought of how they could make it work - and not how the majority of "everyone else" could stop them. And so, the plans failed, or were shot down before they could ever get off the ground.

I've seen leader types who took what was originally mundane and turned it into a potential threat against their clan/city. They would go to investigate the situation, take many of their clan members and even outsiders to help... and find - nothing out of the ordinary.

I've also seen leader types come up with plots to usurp their enemy house, and even set things in motion - only to be told by the clan IMM (either ICly or OOCly) to leave the enemy alone.

I've even seen leader types come up with plots to usurp commoners who posed a threat to their clan, and set things in motion, only to be told (either icly or oocly) by their clan IMM to leave the enemy alone.

I have to conclude, based only on my own observations, that part of the problem is clan leaders who come up with sweeping ideas but have poor skills with implementation. The other part of the problem would be that when a clan leader -does- come up with a good idea and gives it thought and considers the consequences, the idea is shot down by the staff, thus stifling their ability to -be- the clan leader they're supposed to be.

I'm sure there are many, many other situations that fall under different categories of "why can't these things happen?" but those two seem the most prevalent.

[Bhagharva]

I completely disagree with the notions presented in this thread. As a player, I've changed the world many times. I've started and stopped conflicts and I've rose in power in clans that are said to be stagnant. How? By having a little vision and talking other people into doing my dirty work for me, for example.

What some of the players are having a hard time understanding is the diffrence between causing a world shaking event that are unrealistic and following a careful plan to success. Lust like IRL, if you do not have the skills to be a lawyer, people will laugh at you if you ask to represent them. Also, if you are a cop who decides to take the law into their own hands, expect resistance to this, even if it makes sense to you. Even better, if you are a CEO of a major company and you decide on your weekend off to work out a merger with another company and not consult your shareholders, your going to be met with resistance.

We have in this game, expecially in the cities, something I call the status quo.  The establishment. Its a veritable mountain to move, but it CAN be moved if you have the right lever as someone put it eloquently and know where to push.

I can't stress enough that if you REALLY want to make things happen, consult your clan imm. Your clan imm may very well turn your situation around on you (which is why our more addle-brained players avoid this) this is so your experience is realistic, but let's face it.. a good number of our players do not care about realism, all that matters is their personal boredom. Boredom is the lamest excuse to use in this game, there are a thousand and one ways to die and more ways to enjoy yourself/keep occupied. Players who are easily bored I also have a name for 'SHEEP'.