Sparring dummies

[Carnage]

Wintermute brought this up in another thread about combat emotes, but I thought I'd make another thread about this rather than heavily derail the other.

By the by, I think sparring dummies, being as they are in the game now, are completely retarded.

I strongly disagree. I think sparring dummies are what help bring less populated clans more alive. Example: There's three combatant characters in my clan, including myself. I log on at late at night. Hang around in a tavern for a bit, then go to sparring. No one there? Normally people just log off. At least with a dummy people can spend time fighting it, emoting, and doing something. Then maybe another character will come along, see you doing this, then something takes off and you can work together. Not only that, but with a dummy and another person you can get a guard circle going.

The last time I saw the dummy code, it had a script attached to it that would roll it in or out based on the time. This kept it from being used at times that sparring was normally restricted, such as in the evening or afternoons when other training was to be done. I honestly can't see how dummies are completely retarded right now.

Thoughts?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

My one gripe concerning dummies is that it is often viewed (or it seems to be, at any rate) twinkish to use them. I disagree with this to a certian aspect.

I once had a character who could hit the dummy very hard, even wounding it at times, and I felt worried about even sparring it because I was hitting it, even though I could do enough damage to it to kill two or three PCs and it would still be relatively good condition.

Now I agree that mindlessly sparring a dummy is worse than mindlessly sparring another PC, and both are bad, of course, but as long as emotes are thrown in, RP is given accordingly, I am curious as to what exactly is considered twinkish about fighting dummies.

If there is another PC around who should be attending the training with you, and that PC is not linkdead or afk or what have you, I agree that one should not utilize the dummy. But if there is no one about, why wouldn't one spend the morning sparring the dummy? IRL, we have punching bags, and folks go hours on those things. What is even more prevelant is the fact that folks actually hit punching bags until the stuffing comes out of the seams. What is the difference between a dummy and a punching bag?

These are serious questions, not gripes, and I wonder if we can find a solution. Obviously, I don't want to see anything so drastic as taking the dummies out of the game. But this issue has come up in the past, and it will come up again, and so one wonders how to avoid further confusion.

Also, perhaps some documentation can be written and placed on site to assist in setting the rules, as well. Documentation is always great.

To stay on topic, dummies do not suck, and I agree with Carnage as to their usefulness.

[jmordetsky]

I think people use sparring dummies because they want to boost their stats. I don't think theirs anything wrong with that if your char wants to be a great fighter.

Though, I personally do think sparring dummies suck. They're so boring. Both to the character IC and to player OC.

I find it alot more amusing RPing a sparring match with a vnpc partner. And if you want to boost your stats, email the log to your imm.

You have a lot more room creatively with a vpnc and you can use the session to keep your imm plugged into your char.

I've actually RPed a session where my char was hitting a virtual dummy....

But thats just me. I'm slightly mental and prone to hallucination so emoting a vnpc isn't too much of a stretch.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think people use sparring dummies because they want to boost their stats.

Of course. But I can tell you now. Dummies do not help very much. This is one of the main reasons I wonder what is considered twinkish.

It must be considered that in this game, stats and skills and coded things do matter. This is not a mush...not in the typical sense. It is a mush with balls, and those balls have got to get bigger, otherwise you are nothing but a faker. You can emote being a badass warrior after years of fighting VNPCs, but...uhm...I'll whip your ass after years of fighting gith and raptor and gurth...well, maybe not gurth, but, still...

To me, a dummy is a punching bag. That's it. Fighting one not only minutely adjusts my skills, but it is a coded way of emoting my activity. Even though I currently don't use a dummy, and use mekillot's heads and such instead, I fully support the use of dummies.

I want to get something ironed out concerning them so that we never run into the grey area surrounding them and their use.

[creeper386]

You can spar with a dummy all you want and most likely you'll be DOMINATED by a warrior that does the more common route. Sparring a dummy doesn't help much, and doesn't help defense at all. They are FAR more useful as a RPing prop then in coded usefulness to boosting stats.

I've been in only one clan that had dummies. At any given time we might have had about 4-5 active PCs. Rarely were they on at the same time. About half of them you couldn't spar with. At the time there was one person you couldn't spar with because they'd tear the living crap out of anyone that wasn't a very skilled warrior. Then we'd have half giants and such. Sometimes there could be two people you could spar with and not come close to getting killed, and even then with playing times and such it wasn't easy. You were EXPECTED to be there for training. No matter what. So using a coded thing is alot easier then anything else. Most the time I'd RP with the dummy. Emoting lots, then attacking, still emoting lots, disengaging, still emoting the practice and such. Sometimes go at it again for a short time. Creating routines and such.

I've seen the dummy used well by other people as well. I've seen the dummy used as a RP prop between players. Had three active players and we still used the dummy due to problems of sparring against each other. It's a way to practice guard without having someone get slapped around. It's a way to practice group combat and such.

With that character, I had probably the most fun in RP surrounding that dummy. I'll also repeat, that dummy really does nothing. Not compared to sparring with other people. Heck it's probably better to go out and risk your life compared to using the dummy. It's a tool. Code is in place to keep it from being abused, at least thats my understanding.

They hardly injure the game. They acctually ADD something. They don't distract from anything else going on. Why do they suck so bad?


Creeper

[Akaramu]

How are sparring dummies twinkish? How does skill boost with a dummy differ from boosting... sneak, for example? Common sense is involved with every skill, if you stop after realistic amounts of time and go have a drink, and actually RP instead of just code spamming, why not. I'd guess people who spam ANY skill without realistic breaks or roleplay involved lose karma or get the boot at some point. Besides, like someone said, a dummy doesnt replace a real sparring partner.

[gfair]

No way sparring dummies are twinkish, but don't expect you can learn much from an object that doesn't strike back, duck, trip, try other sneaky tricks.

But on that note, I'd like to see various sparring machines, within reason, that have some limited fight capability.  There are numerous accounts of such machines in ancient Rome, England, and I'm sure other places too.

I always think to the rotating arms drill, where the two arms spin around at variable speeds, and you have to jump and duck.  The arms are usually sheathed blades, and some times they're removed.  Could similar devices be possible in Arm? Would they be realistic?

[Lasakar]

I have used dummies to test new skills. Like archery. Don't want to shoot at another PC just for training (maybe later  :twisted: ).  And test new alias or macros. So I will get more routine in my combat sequences and perhaps will be able to put some emotes in real fights.

[sacac]

until you have been in a clan with only 3 people, your a warrior-type and they are all about the business..
Then.. say that..
I happen to like dummies, yes that don't help, but you can figure out better and faster ways to swing your weapons and that sort of IC things.

[__Torax__]

I think you all should quit wondering what is twinkish and play the game.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Heh.

Point taken and accepted.

I find it alot more amusing RPing a sparring match with a vnpc partner. And if you want to boost your stats, email the log to your imm.

You have a lot more room creatively with a vpnc and you can use the session to keep your imm plugged into your char.

Why don't you just pretend that the Dummy is a VNPC and then make emotes accordingly. I almost find it more twinkish sometimes to make some pretty emotes so the immortals who may or may not like you can automatically boost your skills , especially if there is a dummy available for use. Shrug, thats just me.

[jmordetsky]

I guess everyone is going to have their opinion....my logic is that its just more interesting a story if you emote sparring with vnpcs

once you start doing this, you actually can add all sorts of things to it....

I originally started out just emoting sparring....then training sessions with lessons etc....then sitting around in where-ever and speaking my mind to randoms about politics, weather etc.

The idea is that you can give your imms an incredible idea of who your char is through solo rp.

My problem, (I wouldn't even call it a problem...I don;t really care...) with sparring dummies are the peeps who walk into the training room, type hit dummy, walk away from the computer and come back when the dummy gets lifted.

These people could be great RPers who just know that stats are a matter of fact and there may not be heads in their clan at the moment.

My point is, you can do much more creative things alone then spar with a dummy. For instance load a sack up with rocks and go for a run, emoting how difficult it is....maybe you'll run into someone on the street and RP with them....maybe you won't....Add little tidbits that say something about you're char.

Maybe some kid trips you and you laugh about it.....maybe you throw a rock at him...

Log it, send it to you're imm....your imm now understands you better....and can enrich your game.

I'm not saying that sparring dummies are bad...I just think they're boring as shite...

Have you ever walked in a person solo RPing (the gates are open for that one....)? but seriously, it's a nice experience to try and involve yourself and makes for a larger world...

I'm rambling now...but thats my side of it.

[creeper386]

My point is, you can do much more creative things alone then spar with a dummy. For instance load a sack up with rocks and go for a run, emoting how difficult it is....maybe you'll run into someone on the street and RP with them....maybe you won't....Add little tidbits that say something about you're char.

Okay. So, just because you are sparring with a dummy, you aren't solo RPing? You aren't emoting? Most everyone just walks away from the computer?

Again, I've had AWESOME fun emoting with the dummy. And I can assure the time I spent with the dummy did LITTLE for my skills. I emoted alot more with the sparring dummy then I've seen people ever emote in sparring with a partner, or sparring virtual things. I don't know.. I don't see how using the dummy equates to being boring when you can do the same exact solo RPing with a dummy really as you can with virtual NPCs. You can still chat with the vNPCs... Heck they may be training with the dummy along with you. Who knows what...


And if people think they are getting great skill boosts from a dummy they probably would learn quickly. Unless training with archery or something works well with them.

Creeper

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I use the dummy. The dummy is a NPC for a reason. Therefore, I use the dummy. I emote with it just as I would emote with a PC. I don't really see the argument. If you don't wanna use it, don't. If you do, do. Just remember...using it is no different than using anything else. RP with it. If you don't, then it is twinkish...just as twinkish as sparring PCs with no RP.

[Cuusardo]

I was part of a clan that did not have a coded sparring dummy, and refused to get one.  So many times I was stuck in training alone, having to emote constantly about sparring with a dummy that wasn't really there.  Granted it's a perfectly legitimate thing to do, but it gets really fricken old after doing it nearly every time I logged in.  The next clan I was a part of had a coded sparring dummy, coded to be removed and brought out when training ended and began, respectively.  This made it MUCH easier to toss out emotes, because I didn't have to emote EVERYTHING (thus running out of creative emotes did not happen as quickly), and I got bored a lot less often.

I say keep the damn dummies!

[Tamarin]

WHY DOES MY CLAN NOT HAVE ONE?? GRRR!!!

[spawnloser]

WHY DOES MY CLAN NOT HAVE ONE?? GRRR!!!

Hey, find work somewhere that does.  :twisted:

[Morrolan]

I have emoted a set of pells in clans where there is no sparring dummy.

think Rage...taking...over...

emote draws ~training and walks over to a set of pells, sneering at them as he takes a fighting stance.

think Feckin' Lieutenant and his stupid orders.

emote leaps at the set of pells, slamming ~training against them, the dulled blade hardly penetrating the tough surface, the pell swinging wildly.

think Ah feckin' hate that bastard.  Stupid kank-feckin' (insert continuing trail of invective here).

emote smashes into the pell, growling and biting at it as his face twists into an obscene sneer.  His fists pound ineffectualy as he teeth fail to find purchase.

look hooded

think Oh, shit!

emote steps away from the pell, glancing up and wiping at his mouth as ~lieutenant arrives, his face turning a bright red as he snaps out a salute.

Morrolan

[Krath]

I am for the dummies

[Wintermute]

Wintermute brought this up in another thread

Look ma, I'm famous!

Anyway, I'm not against sparring dummies per se - what I don't like about them is the discrepancy found in their implementation in the game.

This can be broken down into two different types:

First, I don't see why only particular clans have sparring dummies while others do not.  Indeed, I know of one clan in particular that has always had sparring dummies in room descriptions, but does not have coded training dummies to work with.  One argument that would probably be made for this particular situation is that coded dummies are useful for clans with small PC populations.  But I fail to see, if that were the case, how they would not be useful to clans with larger populations.  Certainly, there are times, even in more populated clans, where there are few, if any, other clan PCs online.  Would this not create a similar level of usefulness - for instance, are players playing at off-peak times in highly populated clans not entitled to the same benefits players who play at any time in low population clans receive?  Perhaps the imms are afraid that implementing dummies in such clans would actually detract from RP and player-player interaction.  There have been interesting opinions that would suggest otherwise, but if the imms aren't afraid of this, what is preventing them from putting sparring dummies in for every clan that should have them?

The second type of discrepancy I see with sparring dummies is the whole bit about being able to practice and improve fighting skills code-wise while not engaged in a combat situation.  This might seem to you to be equivalent to the 'twinking argument', but it is not.  Twinking can be done in any situation, with any skill - this is not my concern.  The issue I have is the discrepancy with the relatively new training dummy and other non-supported, but comparable types of training.  What if, for instance, my character wanted to train boxing, but had no suitable partners to train with?  If I wanted, I could emote and practice with a punching bag, or do shadow boxing, or whatever else, but my character wouldn't gain from it skill-wise.  If perhaps, one did it long enough and continually sent in logs to the imms, one might imagine that they would grant a skill boost.  But are the imms willing to do this with the incredible myriad of skill-virtual practice combinations that there are sure to be (this must really only be limited by the imagination)?  There could be an argument to be made that well, they're gradually trying to phase this in, that they'll cover everything eventually, or at least the important stuff.  After all, you've been able to improve throwing with a dartboard for a long time now, right?  I just don't know if this really flies with me.  To be honest, I'd rather keep skill improvement to learning from actually doing - the rest is minimal and virtual and I don't believe should be factored in.  Plus, it tends to leave more room for imagination and RP - which, I know, is an opinion that is different from several in this thread.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.  Famous, or infamous.   :twisted:

[spawnloser]

I think more imagination and RP can be put into emoting than spamcrafting...but spamcrafting will raise your skill level, while the solo-RPer that is in an ISO clan without a sparring dummy and noone to train with will never be able to leave the clans little hidey hole for lack of being able to kill the tembo outside.  I'm completely fine with dummies...but I think that anyone in a clan that has the cash to get one should have one, especially if descriptions state that there are some...and yes, I know of two clans that have such an interesting case.  As far as the emoting and spending time to emote out a learning experience and sending it in?  I'm for it...in fact, I'll give an example...

Say you're playing Joe Bob the Newbie Warrior...you're in a low populated clan, so you emote through sparring with an NPC because actually fighting the NPC through code for sparring would be suicide...send it in to the mud.  Don't expect a huge boost.

[crymerci]

I have emoted a set of pells in clans where there is no sparring dummy.

What the hell is a pell?

[Morrolan]

"A pell is simply a target usable for practicing strikes that roughly simulates a human target."

A big post for practicing weapons against.  More or less, a punching bag for weapons.

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/pells.htm

I imagine Zalanthan pells to be made out of hides with sand in them, because that much WOOD would be prohibitively expensive.

Morrolan

[Akaramu]

Pells? Just use an elf. They are cheaper, too.