Martial Arts

[Tamarin]

Comments?

[grog]

Unless you have watched too many B martial arts movies   , a skilled fighter with a weapon can, almost, always defeat a skilled fighter without one.   And I already see the fighting styles in Zalanthas as being more Eastern then Western in base, not to say that the western world didn't have many very fine martial styles.  

Besides the code seems to support unarmed fighting right now; bash, subdue, dodging, disarm, and kick could all be taken in that context.  

Though I wouldn't see anything from stopping you from trying to create your own 'weaponless' fighting style.  Just expect it to take many IC years to be proficent in.  (Though throwing something like a staff art in there might enable him to hold his own.)

[spawnloser]

I'll say yes, but it should be something more like, "brawling," instead of martial arts.  Too many people are going to think Jackie Chan/Bruce Lee etc when they see martial arts...brawling is simply hand to hand combat without a weapon.  Simple and sufficient.

[Morrolan]

I voted no because there are already ways of becoming -uber- without more combat skills.

A skill that allows an advantage to "unarmed disarm" might be cool, though.  Branch it off very high disarm/subdue maybe?

Morrolan

[Rindan]

Eh... I don't really want to see people running around beating up armed and armored warriors with their fists.  I don't think someone using a flesh arm should ever be able to compete with someone using a weapon.  Besides, as it is, you can get pretty bad ass in unarmed combat.  I know I once fought an extremely skilled mul with a very skilled warrior while the mul was using nothing but fists and I had two training weapons.  It took a while to actually start hurting him.  I also saw that same mul fight people with his fists against warriors who were only moderately skilled and beating the living hell out of them.

In other words, you can get pretty good just using a pair of fists... it is just that a skilled warrior with a weapon will always win, and you will take you a damned long time to get to the point where you can even stand against a moderately skilled warrior and not get your ass handed to you, as it should be.  ...and being something nasty like a half-giant or mul helps.

All of that said, I really would love to see brawling get a make over, especially in civilized places.  It would be nice if the occasional fist fight broke out in some of the seedier bars and it didn't result in two half-giant soldiers armed to the teeth killing everyone who participated.  Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing fist fighting in general get a little more complicated.  Not stronger, just more 'full'.  Of course, I suppose normal combat could also use a more 'fuller' feeling too.

[creeper386]

A skill that allows an advantage to "unarmed disarm" might be cool, though. Branch it off very high disarm/subdue maybe?

Hmm... Once disarm gets good having no weapon and disarming is so possibly it's terribly unrealistic. It's kind of like kick still is/was. I've seen an unarmed warrior disarm fairly decent fighters. I think it should be cut down to near impossible.

I mean... The game doesn't hardly account for distance at all as it is. In the least it could give advantage to weapon reach, even a small dagger gives you alittle more room to play with.

Creeper who doesn't think uber martial artists fits at all.

[wizturbo]

I'd think the half-giant and mul races should be able to inflict some nasty damage hand to hand, and possibly be able to survive against an armed opponent if the hand to hand guy has more skill than the other opponent.  I mean, you get punched by something that strong, its gonna hurt -alot-.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'd think the half-giant and mul races should be able to inflict some nasty damage hand to hand, and possibly be able to survive against an armed opponent if the hand to hand guy has more skill than the other opponent.  I mean, you get punched by something that strong, its gonna hurt -alot-.

Half-giants at least.  Muls can hurt you a lot, yes, but they really aren't going to be any better at unarmed combat than a human.  A half-giant has a vastly superior reach, and can deliver bone breaking blows while you're still trying to get close enough to hit it.  The reason that unarmed combat sucks so much is that no matter how good you get at it, your fists always possess an inferior reach to your opponents weapons.  A half-giant wouldn't have this problem.  But on the other hand, a half-giant can subdue and then knock out most opponents unless there is a vast difference in their combat ability.  So I'm content with things how they are.

As for the idea of unarmed combat in general, I'm generally against in anything other than an extremely limited form.  In RL history, methods of unarmed combat were developed in the Far East when a feudal warlord attempted to gain control over the common folk by outlawing the possession of weapons.  Thus, they overthrew their tyrants with the use of unarmed combat.  For this reason, I don't think anybody but a rebellious slave should have the inclination to develop unarmed combat.

[slipshod]

Comments?

No.

Slipshod votes and emphatic 'yes'

[gfair]

Is there any difference, other than the presence of an item in each hand, between "unarmed" fighting and blunt fighting?  Sure, you can disarm someone using weapons, but other than that there aren't many differences.

Edit: My bad on missing the "skilled versus skilled" bit, but when skill  varies unarmed fighters can win, which is why the realism would work in Arm.  Also, perhaps unarmed fighters turn to alternatives like stealth, assassin weapons (smokebomb, flashbang, grenade maybe) or use items  that aren't weapons but can be used as such (silk wrap to catch weapons, rope net to entangle/trip, defensive weapons).  Also, no reason why martial arts fighters can't use weapons - many styles do in our world because it's relevant, same should be considered for making a martial arts Arm class.

Also, just to object - someone with a weapon can't almost always defeat an unarmed fighter.  Weapons are heavy and slow compared to a person who fights with nothing more than the body.  The difference is all in training and fundamental physical traits, not in the presence of a weapon.  Martial arts disciplines don't train their students in weapon-countering techniques because they expect to fail most of the time.

When the large variable is training, it can work in Arm fighting where the level of training has a huge outcome on combat success.

The only main issue I have with unarmed fighting is against beasts - how do you beat up a Bahamet, Mekillot, or other beast with huge limbs, thick skin, and just your bare hands?  People can put on a show and break through materials that shear easily, but Bahamet shell or Mek skin is thick stuff, I just don't see unarmed fighters being of much use against the creatures of the wilderness.

But if there is some way to make it work, I'm all for it despite these objections.

[sacac]

Wow.. all my best posts disapear..
But have you tried to hit something that was meant to be hit with swords and axes and hammers?  And have you tried to punch your hardest at them? They hurt.. very badly..

[Rindan]

Weapons might some times be heavy and slow, but humans use weapons for a very good reason.  Weapons really are superior.  I would put a master swordsman who has been training for 20 years against a master martial artists any day of the week.  Further, weapons are not really slow.  Because a weapon is longer then a limb, the actual tip of the weapon can travel considerably faster then a human can accelerate his arm (unless you are talking about something like a war hammer or what not).  Further, the flesh tends to give rather easily when it encounters a weapon, while weapons can be used defensively.  If you really want to fight in a close combat style why not pick up a pair of knives?  That has all the maneuverability of a fist, a little extra reaching distance, the ability to parry, and it can cut through flesh and armor.

I suppose a good question to ask is; let's say that martial arts are put in.  Who would use them?  What sane person would intentionally forgo even the most basic of weapons?  The populace of all major centers of civilization are allowed to arm themselves.  All major military organizations use extremely sharp weapons and heavy armor.  I don't really see how any sort of martial art could have even been developed.  There is no need for someone to put in all of that extra work into a style of combat where one slip up ends in death against a person armed with a weapon, when you could simply buy a cheap dagger for the cost of a single ale.

[Angela Christine]

I suppose a good question to ask is; let's say that martial arts are put in.  Who would use them?  What sane person would intentionally forgo even the most basic of weapons?  

Well, who often finds themselves unarmed when trouble comes knocking?  Magickers.  Yep, we could have wicked cool magickal ninjas of doom.  What's not to love?  

AC

[Quirk]

Martial arts disciplines don't train their students in weapon-countering techniques because they expect to fail most of the time.

Speaking as one who (among other things) does a jujitsu variant which puts a heavy emphasis on counters to knife attacks, coshes and similar things - yes, yes we do. If someone smaller than you and untrained comes at you with a knife you still run if you can, because the odds are you will take serious damage. An untrained person swinging a blunt weapon is rather easier as you can close them down and grapple nicely, but as soon as you get into any level of training on the other side it's time to run away again. I've seen some of my friends sparring with their pairs of blunt escrima sticks, and I would not want to try to get inside their guard with my body.

All training to counter do is increase your chances, and if you run into someone who knows how to use a weapon and you're without one, you're going to fail even with inhuman amounts of training unless you get very lucky.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

Even the crap karate I went to teaches how to disarm weapons.

But the vast majority of our training was when the weapon was being held out at close range to theaten.

Some mul with an axe swinging to chop your head off is an entirely different story.

[SailorMars]

Heh, I think the videogame soulcalibur for PS2 looks at this question. That hihatchi guy who is a hand-to-hand fighter wears armored bracers to deflect his opponent's weapons. In game terms, you couldn't effectively parry a weapon unarmed without something to that effect, right? Unless you were some uber-ninja that could "slap away" any weapon without ever blocking one.

Looking down at an axe buried in his forearm, the wiry martial artist says, "Hmm, my iron-skin techinique needs more work."

Even as a lover of martial arts, something doesn't feel right about them being popular in a place like Zalanthas. For some reason I see even unarmed arena fights as being brutal pugilitics matches, not matrix-style, jet li running up the walls type stuff.

[Comrade Canadia]

No No No No NO!!!

One thing that drives me nuts is that idea like martial arts can exist in situations where there is REASON for them to exist.  I'm no expert on them, but I'm quite sure they came about because of a peasantry that never had access to weapons, and had to defend themselves.  There was also the entire religious, spiritual bent of martial arts - which has no place in armag.

EVERYBODY on this mud carries a weapon.  If we take the PCs as a rough sample of the population, I doubt people would ever even -think- to become experts in hand to hand combat.  Brawling is fine, brawling is cool, brawling is in character.  Brawling is also useless against someone with a knife unless they have no idea what they're doing and you're very good.  I like the way unarmed combat currently works.  If you're unarmed, you're fucked.  Martial arts might be a neat idea, but neat ideas should have historical relevance in the world in order to exist.  Since every character ever carries a weapon... I don't see why people would have the need to develop martial arts.

-Dave

[I Have Steel]

Why need a hard-coded skill to be a martial artist, or any other kind of unarmed brawler?

Find a guild or subguild with kick, make use of such things as bash... Add some flavor to your emotes, and emote training in your 'style' and you have a martial art for your character.

I voted no, and more for the sake of playability than for realism. If a skill suddenly popped up, that made unarmed as good as armed, why would anyone waste their hard to come by 'sid on weapons, when they could do a uber heart punch of doom on a half-giant, through his obsidian breastplate?

[Wintermute]

Just a couple comments on this.

1) Martial arts include weapon combat.  (feel free to make an uber ninja clan that has their own kickass style as eluded to above, but -involving- weapons?)

2) Why can't we talk about martial arts when fighting an unarmed opponent?  Why wouldn't organizations devoted to combat training want to develop and train their people in unarmed combat in case for whatever reason they find themselves without a weapon?  If you're going to talk about overpowering weapons with regard to use/development of martial arts - take the RL example of today's modern militaries and police/counter-terrorist organizations.  I'd say guns would pretty easily overpower an unarmed d00d.  But that doesn't mean people trained in the use of firearms aren't also trained in hand-to-hand combat.  

I think at the very least, if someone wanted to focus on some unarmed combat, they should be able to get significantly better (but keep the vs. armed penalty or have some formula whereby this is reduced somewhat according to skill - never mitigating past significant disadvantage).  And don't give me the offense skill garbage - everyone knows it doesn't do much at all.

[sacac]

Well why not ask the good people that make this game possible to give you every skills that involves martial arts.. and then have them take your primary guild skills away? Just my thought.

[Forest Junkie]

I have spent 12 years in the study of Arts like Aikido and some karate variations . And I have always found it easier to disarm with your bare hands then with a weapon,  much much easier to subdue bare handed. Also while bare handed, much easier to kick a person.

Amen.

IRL, a highly trained fighter in the Martial Arts can and will easily disarm a foo' with a gun. I have seen it done, several times.

But, does something of this nature belong in a game such as Armageddon? I can't really see why not, eh? IMO, if your pc can actually get badass enough to fook someone up barehanded, then hell, you DESERVE a "barehanded" fighting skill.

[Mr.Camel]

Personally, I don't see how anyone would be able to disarm a swordman or polearm user with his barehands.

[creeper386]

Yeah, it is probably easier to get a weapon out of someones hands with your own hands then with a weapon. The problem then though is you have to get INSIDE of the weapon. Unless your drastically faster then someone, they are just as likely as move with you keeping their weapon between yours and theirs. If they are compitent with the weapon you won't get close enough, and probably end up being cut trying.

Guns are different. You can grab a gun most the times and not get your hand cut. It's fairly hard to get any sort of grip on a sharp blade when it's moving and actively trying to cut you. Blunt weapons you can grab, but most likely, unless the person doesn't know what they are doing any time you are able to grab it ... It's probably swinging at you.

Most the time, if you don't have a weapon, against someone with a weapon ... You best offense is staying alive long enough to get a chance.  Some of you skilled martial artists go and see if your teachers want to fight against you while you have a sword. Probably it won't happen, even if they felt secure that they could still beat you. Accidents happen and they probably wouldn't want to have to have appendages sewn back on.


Creeper just figures, it won't happen, although I could see some sort of brawling skill that still well get owned by anyone with a weapon but allows some range among unarmed combatants.

[Rindan]

1) Martial arts include weapon combat.  (feel free to make an uber ninja clan that has their own kickass style as eluded to above, but -involving- weapons?)

That is already in game.  Weapons skills are not terribly specific as to what you are doing.  If you want to whip out a pair of knives and emote going ninja on someone's ass, and have the skill to back it up, go for it.

2) Why can't we talk about martial arts when fighting an unarmed opponent?  Why wouldn't organizations devoted to combat training want to develop and train their people in unarmed combat in case for whatever reason they find themselves without a weapon?  If you're going to talk about overpowering weapons with regard to use/development of martial arts - take the RL example of today's modern militaries and police/counter-terrorist organizations.  I'd say guns would pretty easily overpower an unarmed d00d.  But that doesn't mean people trained in the use of firearms aren't also trained in hand-to-hand combat.  

First, getting completely disarmed for most people is extremely hard.  You can always find a place to stuff another dagger.  I had one character who had 10 weapons on him at all times, and it really was not much of a challenge.  Buying your recruits another 20 'sid dagger is much cheaper then spending years how to survive a few seconds unarmed against someone with a weapon.  Better just to teach them how to draw their daggers quicker.

I think at the very least, if someone wanted to focus on some unarmed combat, they should be able to get significantly better (but keep the vs. armed penalty or have some formula whereby this is reduced somewhat according to skill - never mitigating past significant disadvantage).  And don't give me the offense skill garbage - everyone knows it doesn't do much at all.

I would be fore a brawling skill that would kick in a fist vs fist fight.  I think a guy who spends all his time getting into fist fights should be able to pound another unarmed person who doesn't.  Of course, once weapons come into play, I think the survivability odds should be about where they are now.  If you are a very uber warrior, you can hold your own against moderately skilled warriors, and even inflict some harm on less then skilled warriors.  Anything else will hack you open in seconds.

If you really want to spend lots of time being a martial artists, the code is already fairly supportive.  You have the ability to disarm your opponent and you can kick them.  If you are crazy enough to train against weapons you will find your unarmed combat probably getting better then most.  Unarmed works off of the invisible offense and defense skills which are always used in combat.  I imagine like all skills these skills will go up when you fail.  If you are fighting unarmed against weapons, you are going to fail a lot.  If you trained diligently unarmed, I would imagine you would have higher offense and defensive skills then your average warrior.  They will still trounce you, but take away their weapon and you will probably win.

What more could you possibly ask for?  I think people are wanting some magical uber way of fighting off a guy with a sharp hunk of obsidian and there just is no way.  If you train solidly for 20 IC years unarmed, I bet at the end of it you will be better at unarmed then most and probably able to take on weaker warriors unarmed, and that is exactly how a martial artist would fair... just strong good.

Honestly, I think the closest thing Zalanthas would ever develop would be some kick ass knife techniques, which is something the code all ready supports fairly well.

[Wintermute]

1) Martial arts include weapon combat.  (feel free to make an uber ninja clan that has their own kickass style as eluded to above, but -involving- weapons?)

That is already in game.  Weapons skills are not terribly specific as to what you are doing.  If you want to whip out a pair of knives and emote going ninja on someone's ass, and have the skill to back it up, go for it.

Thanks for saying what I didn't say.

First, getting completely disarmed for most people is extremely hard.

Why?

If you train solidly for 20 IC years unarmed, I bet at the end of it you will be better at unarmed then most and probably able to take on weaker warriors unarmed, and that is exactly how a martial artist would fair... just strong good.

No.  Nothing should take twenty years.  But you partially reiterate my point (again) as to the state of the code reflecting the possibility of martial arts (this time unarmed).