>Someone rips a juicy...

[Rindan]

Why emote anything then? Why even emote that you're about to attack someone? All it does is give OOC information after all.

Why emote when you are about to attack?  Because if someone emotes lunging for you, you can respond and draw a weapon, emote dodging out of the way, or do whatever tickles your fancy.  It also tells everyone else in the room that someone is about to attack and everyone can do whatever it is they are going to do.  In this case, the emote is very much worth while as there is no information given to you the player that the character wouldn't also know.  If somoene is about to attack, it should be pretty clear and people should respond accordingly.  You and your character will arrive at the same conclusion, "Shit, someone is going to attack, I better get ready."

There are plenty of worthwhile things to emote in the world.  There are things that give IC information that your character would know, like someone is going to attack.  There are things that give no real IC information, but not real OOC information, like scratching your ass at the bar.  Most characters might not notice ICly, but who cares?  There is no harm in it and your character might potentially notice.  At worst you gain nothing and loose nothing.  Finally, there are things that give OOC information, but no IC information.  These are the things that in my opinion are just disruptive to the game.  Brushing into someone gives the OOC information that there is a hidden person in the room, and if you were the target of said brushing, you might have just been pick pocketed.  What IC information does it give?  Nothing you are supposed to respond to.  In other words, you were given just a heap of OOC information and nothing else.

[Morrolan]

Wow, this topic is vicious...and you guys are just playing.   :wink:

Now, I do not go to the kind of bar that is so packed I cannot breathe, but I do go to some pretty busy bars.  And after every time I am jostled, I quickly check my valuables--unless I am so wasted that I cannot tell, which is fairly rare, I must say.  Yes, every time.  Wallet, keys, cell phone, knife.  Hell, it is a habit I have when I see someone suspicious, enter a new room, or leave a building.

Plus, when people bump into each other in bars, fights break out.  I do not know what kinds of bars my fellow armers go to [IRL], but if someone bumps into me, I look at them, and perhaps nod and smile.

My characters, on the other hand, are much less concerned.  I had someone tuck a knife much like my character's favorite into their belt as they headed for the door of a tavern.  My character, who might or might not have seen it, ignored it completely.  I would almost certainly have noticed, IRL.  I have noticed, IRL, in the past.  When someone brushes me IRL, I damn well know who they are.  Now why is that?

Morrolan

[Bestatte]

No. I absolutely don't agree with that Rindan. Let's deal with this *hardly ever happens anyway so who really gives a shit* example, k?

THE BRUSH:

Room description implies it's a crowded bar. There's only 3 visible PCs there, so as a player I'm feeling like - it just isn't really that crowded, but I RP as if it was anyway because that's the point of the game.

Suddenly I feel a brush of cloth against my arm as someone walks through the room.

As a player, I know someone is hidden. As a character, I know that in the midst of the crowd, someone passed by closer than the majority of the other people. My character knows nothing else. HOWEVER

My character will likely touch her sleeve, or look down at her arm, or otherwise emote to acknowledge that yes, someone did in fact brush her on the way through.

Or maybe she might even look up at a few faces, studying the crowd with mild interest.

Or maybe she'll be paranoid and make sure no one's slipped some poison into her drink.

The opportunity for RPing this situation is endless. She could do nothing at all and not even feel the brush or notice it. Chances are though, she'll feel it, and make some gesture to acknowledge it. For me, that's adding to the atmosphere. For me, it's part of the fun of the game. For me, I appreciate the hell out of people who do that kind of thing and any of you who know who my character is, GO FOR IT. You'll find one person among the crowd who will applaud your efforts behind the monitor.

[Supreme Allah]

I know I said I wouldn't post to repeat myself yet again, but Rindan, you appear to have missed when I stated this, yet again.

...by all means (and as I have suggested several times, though apparently it has gone ignored), GO AHEAD AND REACT.

The 'paranoia' examples that you're really overusing were in response to specific reactions players had given in this thread - I approved of both, given they were in-character actions and not those spurred by OOC assumption. Bestatte's (and Morrolan's, though they were more subtly stated) examples would all be great, as well.

If someone's close enough to slip a hand in your cloak (or by your belt) and snatch something, it should be fairly obvious, and it certainly does take something from the game as well as from both thiefer and thiefee if such actions go completely unacknowledged, regardless of whether they were fully noticed or not.

[Rindan]

If you really believe that the 'emote glances over his shoulder' that the average person will do in response to someone announcing OOCly that they are hidden and stealing from people to the entire room, then I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.  I am all for mundane interaction, but not if it comes with such a high price in terms of added OOC knowledge, not just for the victim, but everyone else who has to witness it.  I personally find such hidden emotes extremely self indulgent and inconsiderate to the suspension of disbelief of those around that person.  I can't force anyone to stop, but I would hope that you at least consider how much OOC information you are spreading to the entire room and what is gained in that spreading before hidden emoting to a room full of people.

[Supreme Allah]

If you really believe that the 'emote glances over his shoulder' that the average person will do in response to someone announcing OOCly that they are hidden and stealing from people to the entire room... (rest of redundant post drawn from this)

From here on out, Rindan, I'm just going to patiently quote things I've already stated, because everything you're bringing up was already acknowledged (and torn to pieces in my opinion) two pages ago.

Please reread this:

"Someone brushes past your cloak."

Hey, because this guy emoted brushing past a cloak, touching a shoulder, or simply moving past, they're broadcasting to the whole room that they've just picked your pocket, right? Wrong. You as a player can be as presumptuous as you want when you see a someone emote, but don't think the rest of the playerbase is doing the same, Rindan.

Being a big fan of the 'rinth as I am, I've done emotes similar to this dozens of times over, Rindan. Just little touches or skirts past one might feel in a crowd. It's nothing I haven't done while not hidden, either.

Know how many pockets my characters have picked, grand total? I bet you can guess at this point, but I'll tell you anyway - dead zero. Know how many times I've even tried? The same. I'm not OOCing you anything at all, Rindan. Stop jumping to conclusions.

No one's said here that you should not at all react to hidden emotes - or, if they have and I missed it, I disagree.

What I am saying: react to what the code gives you and nothing more. That is all that is being asked of the player, and again it isn't that demanding. It isn't anything more than every player faces day to day on Armageddon, and certainly isn't the travesty you make it out to be. Plain and simple, I think your issue here is just in that your mind is wandering.

Nothing personal of course - I'm just sick of repeating myself.

[Rindan]

When I use 'you', it is the all inclusive you, not you Supreme Allah specifically.  

Yes OOC information is passed when someone hidden emotes in the ways that have been described, even if the OOC information simply is that someone is hidden in the room.  If it is also indicates that someone is running around pick pocketing, then that is just another piece of information that is also included.  True, it would presumptuous to know 100% that a pick pocket just occurred, but suspecting one just occurred would not be presumptuous.

The point is that whatever little is gained in RP value is lost in the quantities of OOC information that is also passed along.  You are certainly free to disagree that 'emote glances over his shoulder' is not worth it, but you can't deny the fact that it gives the OOC information that, if nothing else, someone is hidden in the room.  Simply consider the fact that you (all inclusive you) WILL give OOC information if you hidden emote.  Just consider if the disruption in suspension of disbelief is worth self indulgent declarations that someone is hidden.

[Supreme Allah]

If it is also indicates that someone is running around pick pocketing, then that is just another piece of information that is also included.

I've played rinthers for several months of my Arm career, Rindan, and I for one have never had a character of mine pick a single pocket. Your assumptions are utterly baseless aside from common knowledge of what a very solid percentage of starting guild options have available to them, and are hardly even worth acknowledging.

The point is that whatever little is gained in RP value is lost in the quantities of OOC information that is also passed along.

The "quantities of OOC information" is simply that there is (or was at the time of emoting) someone you cannot identify in the room. That is it. At any given point ICly - particularly in the crowded tavern environment we are describing - this is likely true. Unless you are completely unable to seperate IC from OOC, I don't understand how this alone should affect your roleplay.

Room description implies it's a crowded bar. There's only 3 visible PCs there, so as a player I'm feeling like - it just isn't really that crowded, but I RP as if it was anyway because that's the point of the game.

The player should understand that ICly, PCs or not, there are a lot of people in this room that we are not going to completely notice or acknowledge, HOWEVER...

If someone's close enough to slip a hand in your cloak (or by your belt) and snatch something, it should be fairly obvious, and it certainly does take something from the game as well as from both thiefer and thiefee if such actions go completely unacknowledged, regardless of whether they were fully noticed or not.

The fact that a PC is hidden or successful in the steal command should not imply that they have somehow become incorporeal or completely beyond notice, and aside from the fact that it can heavily detract from the environment, as Bestatte describes above, a PC failing to emote actions another PC could very well notice is exactly what this does.

[sacac]

Well.. in the bazaar you have Vnpc that nail you in the ribs or 'bump' into your back.. So why can't a PC do that while in a crowded room where it is filled with VnPC and Pcs.. I say it is ok.. but if your pc has no IC way of seeing or feeling it, then you as a PLAYER shouldn't make them.

When in an NPC does it, it is atmosphere without the OOC information.  When a player does it, there is an additional heap of OOC information.  So again, no one has answered the question.  Why is it worth it?  Why is all that OOC information you inevitably spill to the victim and everyone else in the room worth that small atmospheric emote which no one who is not ultra paranoid is supposed to respond to?  Why bother dumping all of that OOC information onto someone's lap for what seems to be absolutely no purpose?

Npc and PC is an OOC concept.. yes it gives you some info about what is going on.. yes. it does, But why even sit alone at a table in a crowded bar? That right there hints at people listening.. but noone cares about that.. why? Because it is a crowded bar and your pc probably can't see them anyway.. So why emote while hidden? Because there is probably a PC/NPC in the room that can see that hidden person. And they want to know what it is doing. So the hidden person tells the people watching what he is doing.. So yes.. if your PC happened to be looking over your shoulder at the time then yes, you would probably jump up and accuse the closest elf.. or another PC.. It has happened to me.. in a crowded bar.. when you Emote while you are hidden, you are giving the of characters in the room a chance to RP off of what you are doing..

[Kalden]

I think a lot of the hidden emotes are pretty stupid. If people are walking around, then they shouldn't be hidden in the first place. If they fart, that breaks their hide and the player has an obligation to type 'eq'. If they brush up against them, same thing. People seem to think that being successfully hidden makes them somehow invisible, but I don't see it that way. If they're not actively hiding in a hiding -spot-, just slouching in shadow, then they shouldn't be hidden.

In fact, I don't think hiding in a tavern should be possible. It's simply too crowded and too impossible to not be noticed by -someone-, unless you're coming in from some secret entrance.

If simply typing 'eq' and 'patting yourself down', basically moving in the slightest action, then the majority of emotes would break your hide.

[EvilRoeSlade]

In fact, I don't think hiding in a tavern should be possible. It's simply too crowded and too impossible to not be noticed by -someone-, unless you're coming in from some secret entrance.

You are wrong.  Hiding in the city doesn't mean ducking under a table or hiding under the bar so that nobody sees you.  It means that everybody sees you, and at the same time, nobody notices you.  You are in effect, ceasing to be a PC and instead becoming a VNPC.  A crowded tavern is the perfect place to hide, because all you have to do is fail to stand out and allow yourself to be lost in the crowds.  People can see you, but if somebody later came along and asked if you were there, they would be utterly incapable of remembering and describing you.

[Forest Junkie]

In fact, I don't think hiding in a tavern should be possible. It's simply too crowded and too impossible to not be noticed by -someone-, unless you're coming in from some secret entrance.

umm...bullshit? Yeah, sorry man, but I totally disagree. How is it -NOT-possible to blend into a crowd of perhaps -two hundred- fucking cloaked people!?!? IMHO, it wouldn't be that damn hard. In fact, the best place IMO to hide -would- be in an actual crowd. It's a -lot- harder to spot Waldo when he looks like every other schmoe.

Just my piece of shit, shrug.

::EDIT:: Sigh, E. R. Slade beat me to it!

[Kalden]

It means that everybody sees you, and at the same time, nobody notices you. You are in effect, ceasing to be a PC and instead becoming a VNPC. A crowded tavern is the perfect place to hide, because all you have to do is fail to stand out and allow yourself to be lost in the crowds. People can see you, but if somebody later came along and asked if you were there, they would be utterly incapable of remembering and describing you.

That's the popular definition, but it doesn't make much sense, IMO. The helpfile does back it up, but I think that magical effect is impossible. People can't see you or hear you - you become a VNPC, but even to those people who know you, your cloak, and all of your mannerisms? I don't think so. Makes no sense.

I prefer to think of city hide as being able to find the shadowy nooks and cranneys in a city, where you can actually hide. But if hide is as you say, then why shouldn't I be able to do plenty of actions? Where is your refutation to that?

If hide is what you define it as, then you should be able to drink, smoke, eat, and whatever else you feel like doing.

Edit: Maybe your 'disguise' definition would make sense if the person were actually changing their physical appearance. As it is, they are someone becoming invisible even if they look like Death himself, or are an ugly freak. Again, I don't think so.

[Forest Junkie]

If hide is what you define it as, then you should be able to drink, smoke, eat, and whatever else you feel like doing.

Well Kalden, you see, it goes like this: The game is not perfect...yet =P
I seriously think you -should- be able to scratch your nuts though, and not get your hide status booted. Damn, Kalden, I think you are on to something big here!

[Forest Junkie]

That's the popular definition, but it doesn't make much sense, IMO. The helpfile does back it up, but I think....

........

[Kalden]

I can see 'mingling into the crowd' in a large, busy Bazaar, with tons of people, but in a tavern, you have people sitting at the bar or tables. You have servers walking about, but I don't see 'hundreds' of people walking around the tavern floor, just standing. People like to say 'hundreds' of people are everywhere, but they simply aren't. My vision isn't usually obscured by hordes of people in the taverns I'm sitting at, and I don't like people to take their own envisionment of a room and force it on me.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The helpfile does back it up, but I think that magical effect is impossible. People can't see you or hear you - you become a VNPC, but even to those people who know you, your cloak, and all of your mannerisms? I don't think so. Makes no sense.

It is not a magickal ability, it is what detectives and police investigators do in real life to tail their suspects.  Mannerisms can be altered, in Zalanthas, all cloaks more or less the same (drab and dusty), and you can conceal yourself from people who know you by placing yourself behind them and people who do not know you.  In fact, if you're only trying to hide from people who know you, there is no better place to be than in a crowd.

I prefer to think of city hide as being able to find the shadowy nooks and cranneys in a city, where you can actually hide. But if hide is as you say, then why shouldn't I be able to do plenty of actions? Where is your refutation to that?

There are some cases in which using the hide skill would work in such a way.  Of course, ducking behind a wagon or a pile of trash doesn't actually require any skill.  But if nothing else is available, and its dark enough to give you the advantage, hey?  Why not?  If you are inside a dark alley that lacks bystanders and you want to crawl inside of a window or duck behind a heap of rubbish to hide, then it would indeed be as you describe it.

If hide is what you define it as, then you should be able to drink, smoke, eat, and whatever else you feel like doing.

Edit: Maybe your 'disguise' definition would make sense if the person were actually changing their physical appearance. As it is, they are someone becoming invisible even if they look like Death himself, or are an ugly freak. Again, I don't think so.

It isn't so much a disguise as it is the art of looking or acting like somebody might expect.  If people look at you and see a rich fop, a beggar, a street thug, or an off-duty mercenary then chances are they won't bother with a second look.

And yes, you should be able to eat, drink, and smoke while hidden.  But just because you can't do something doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to.

I can see 'mingling into the crowd' in a large, busy Bazaar, with tons of people, but in a tavern, you have people sitting at the bar or tables. You have servers walking about, but I don't see 'hundreds' of people walking around the tavern floor, just standing. People like to say 'hundreds' of people are everywhere, but they simply aren't. My vision isn't usually obscured by hordes of people in the taverns I'm sitting at, and I don't like people to take their own envisionment of a room and force it on me.

Zalanthas is a low tech society, and furthermore, it is a society in which a tavern isn't so much as a bar as it is the village square, a place where just everybody gathers for social interaction.  Therefore, your real life analogy is worthless.  In fact, I believe the main description of the Gladiator and Gaj does indeed mention there being hundereds of commoners.

A second point I would like to bring up.  Even if the tavern wasn't crowded, you could most likely still remain hidden.  Remember you're in a dimly lit place where by raising your hood, you could conceal your features at a long distance.  This is a steriotypical example yes, but by sitting in a table in a poorly lit corner, you could indeed make it so that people would have to cross the room and stare you in the face to be able to remember your features.  Needless to say, nobody will do this.

[Forest Junkie]

My vision isn't usually obscured by hordes of people in the taverns I'm sitting at, and I don't like people to take their own envisionment of a room and force it on me.

Oh, sorry man. Didn't mean to make you eat that "envisionment of a room" stuff. I know it's really nasty. (I apologize for being a jackass, I'll be polite now...just didn't think I was force feeding you Armageddon Ideology)

Ok, now, for the serious stuff: Go visit the normal taverns in the various city-states like Tuluk for instance, read their room descriptions, and tell me what you see. If you can find -anywhere- where it says there are "not that many patrons milling about the room" or some shit like that, then you have to -kinda, sorta think- that in a city of over 100k people at -least-, there's going to be more than twenty people in a tavern at any given time. That's a fair, FAIR estimate.

P.S. Sorry for that forcing upon you thing, Kalden. No hard feelings? A napkin, perhaps? =P

[Kalden]

If people look at you and see a rich fop, a beggar, a street thug, or an off-duty mercenary then chances are they won't bother with a second look.

Oh so true.  :roll:

I am sure someone posted this already in the thread but I am NOT going to go back and read that mess.

Well I have a solution to the bumping into ppl thing. Why doesn't everone who enters a tavern, bump into someone else, at least once person per tavern visit. So pretty soon, maybe people won't react so crazily.

As for hidden ppl,  the code tells you the player that 'someone' is doing something.  Its the player's burden to decide whether the pc can see them or not.  Never really cared for the someone messages myself, just let me not see it for all I care. OR only let me see their hidden emote if it references me. Example. Somone picks their nose. I don't see anything. Someone pick their nose and flicks something at you. Since its involving me in their filthy emote, I see it. But joe shmoe next to me might not notice.

[crymerci]

I wish this thread would die die die!!!  Please, oh please, would someone burn this dead horse and bury the ashes before it can get flogged any more?

[Malifaxis]

Wisemerci wrote:

I wish this thread would die die die!!! Please, oh please, would someone burn this dead horse and bury the ashes before it can get flogged any more?

I second the motion.

[Rindan]

The "quantities of OOC information" is simply that there is (or was at the time of emoting) someone you cannot identify in the room. That is it. At any given point ICly - particularly in the crowded tavern environment we are describing - this is likely true. Unless you are completely unable to seperate IC from OOC, I don't understand how this alone should affect your roleplay.

It doesn't affect ones role playing.  In the most extreme example, the imms could drop me an e-mail detailing the entire plot of the MUD and what they have planned for the next six months and ideally it wouldn't affect my role playing.  I could very well separate out that OOC knowledge from the IC knowledge of my character.  The point is that I don't want to, or, in the very least, would like to minimize how often I have to do it.  When there is a way to clearly avoid getting extra OOC information, I prefer to take that rout.  For the same reason why I don't want the imms to send me their plans for the plot for the next six months, I don't want someone to announce that they are hidden, stealing from me, or whatever.  Granted, the difference is a few orders of magnitude in the imms sending me the grand plot over someone announcing they are hidden, but it is the same general idea.  Yes, I could live through the OOC information, but I would rather not be forced to.

When you hidden emote, especially things that you people are not normally going to respond to in a meaningful way, then you are giving away OOC information.  Whatever IC information is passed out that people can use, an OOC price is paid.  Just consider the cost and reward for such actions.  As I said, it isn't like I can force anyone to stop broadcasting that they are hidden, they should just consider what they are doing.

I'll call this thread dead for me.  Either you feel that the OOC information you pass on and its potential to disrupt the enjoyment of everyone in the room when hidden emoting is worth it or you don't.  I doubt anything else can be said to sway anyone any further.

[ashjpd]

Wouldn't this same thing work with someone that is trying to sneak around, but they don't succeed. Cause I remember a pc who did that once, in a bar. First they were hiding and then they showed themself and then they walked out with sneak, but it didn't work.

[Forest Junkie]

Yes yes, the thread should burn, and I with it for having brought this shit up!

BUT! We have learned one valuable lesson from all of this madness:

Put simply, Rindan has never admitted he's wrong. Ever.