>Someone rips a juicy...

[Supreme Allah]

Xygax, if someone emotes stealing from you, for example, what decides whether you notice the theft itself is the steal command and subsequent skill checks.

Does it say you caught me, or noticed anything unusual, or does it say nothing?

If all the game tells you is that "someone touched your cloak" then I, as a player to another player, expect you to react according to that rather than any OOC desire to protect your character's possessions.

That the RP is jarring is no excuse for otherwise. My character getting killed has jarred me several times, but that doesn't mean I'd step into the other room and quit out to prevent it.

The bottom line is that it's a judgement call on the player's part.

Would you notice just some random faceless VNPC sidling through the crowd on the other side of the tavern?

Would you turn and look over every square inch of the room at the sight of someone you couldn't immediately identify?

Would you stand and run outside, wildly patting yourself down if someone in the middle of a bustling tavern crowd lightly brushed your shoulder?

If your character would do these things, then by all means, do them! That's called roleplay, and I support it one hundred percent.

But for a player that is an immortal - whose opinions will always always always be taken with some amount of authority - to say that he, as a player, will break character, get up, leave, and make sure he hasn't lost anything due to a "someone" emote is in my opinion setting a horrible, horrible example for less experienced roleplayers.

[Xygax]

Xygax, if someone emotes stealing from you, for example, what decides whether you notice the theft itself is the steal command and subsequent skill checks.

Exactly.  So I don't need your emote to cloud the issue.  You and I can -both- let the game decide that for us.  There's even a message in the steal code that indicates feeling someone's hand on your belongings and not knowing who that is.  If you emote ":brushes %xygax cloak" then you're deciding for me (without regard to the code) that you failed your attempt.

Does it say you caught me, or noticed anything unusual, or does it say nothing?

If all the game tells you is that "someone touched your cloak" then I, as a player to another player, expect you to react according to that rather than any OOC desire to protect your character's possessions.

Wanting to protect my character's possessions is almost always both an OOC AND and IC desire.  Very few PCs actually -want- to lose the things they've killed and risked their lives to obtain.  Calling my motivations entirely OOC misses the point that my _character_ also noticed someone "brushing a hand over his cloak".  And since that otherwise NEVER happens to him, you can fairly expect him to react to it.  If you emote it, and I percieve it, expect a reaction.

That the RP is jarring is no excuse for otherwise. My character getting killed has jarred me several times, but that doesn't mean I'd step into the other room and quit out to prevent it.

I'm not sure the situations parallel exactly.  Fleeing and quitting out to avoid a fight is abusive because I'm removing my character from the game-world entirely, thus denying you any opportunity to continue interacting.  Getting up and leaving a tavern to avoid what I consider poor RP (and yes, I'm saying I think you "Someone"s are RPing poorly doesn't entirely take me out of the situation.  You could still pursue me, you could still steal more.  You could still emote more.  I've never, as far as I know, been followed out of a tavern by a "someone-emoter", nor interacted with them in any meaningful way later.  This, to me, seems to indicate that they aren't really after meaningful interaction, they're just showing off their "hide" skillZ.

The bottom line is that it's a judgement call on the player's part.

Would you notice just some random faceless VNPC sidling through the crowd on the other side of the tavern?

Would you turn and look over every square inch of the room at the sight of someone you couldn't immediately identify?

Would you stand and run outside, wildly patting yourself down if someone in the middle of a bustling tavern crowd lightly brushed your shoulder?

If your character would do these things, then by all means, do them! That's called roleplay, and I support it one hundred percent.

Do you emote brushing into NPCs/VNPCs as you walk through taverns?  I've -never- seen a Someone do this.

If I emoted that I caught "Someone"'s hand in my pocket, would you return whatever you'd stolen?

If I emoted beating you senseless and taking your belongings, would you submit?

Armageddon offers CODED results to actions like this specifically because of this "I _felt_ it!!"  "No you didn't!!" BS.  Use them, or go play a MUSH.  

But for a player that is an immortal - whose opinions will always always always be taken with some amount of authority - to say that he, as a player, will break character, get up, leave, and make sure he hasn't lost anything due to a "someone" emote is in my opinion setting a horrible, horrible example for less experienced roleplayers.

I didn't say I was breaking character.  It's easy to come up with an endless stream of legit IC reasons to leave a crowded tavern.  Especially if people I can't see are fondling me.

-- X

[JollyGreenGiant]

Here's a pretty dilemma, it seems.

Let's talk about the player who gets stolen from, with no emotes from the thief.  They complain about twink thieves not giving them a chance to rp the scenario.  So the thief emotes, and then someone else complains because there was a hidden emoter.  And then the thief complains, because half the room scanned after the hidden emote.

How to solve all of this?  Quit complaining about it.  Period.  If you're the person getting stolen from with no emotes, remember that there's more to a theft than just interacting with the thief.  If you're the person seeing the hidden emotes and complaining, remember that you hated it even more when stuff just disappeared from your inventory.  If you're the thief, remember that emoting while hidden is giving everyone else license to react as they see fit.

So what if you're suddenly faced with having to deal with OOC knowledge IC?  You deal with it all the time anyway.  How is it really any different than your newest character running into someone that your previous character knew (or was killed by)?  Jarring?  Maybe.  Unavoidable?  At times.  Can you deal with it?  You know you do.

Seriously, break the vicious cycle, screw the complaints.  They're circular, and a lot of times they stem from people seeing a reaction that wasn't what they wanted or anticipated, so instead of just dealing with it, they call foul.

[Supreme Allah]

I don't need your emote to cloud the issue. You and I can -both- let the game decide that for us. There's even a message in the steal code that indicates feeling someone's hand on your belongings and not knowing who that is. If you emote ":brushes %xygax cloak" then you're deciding for me (without regard to the code) that you failed your attempt.

No, I'm expressing - successful or not - what exactly I did in the coded action, Xygax. If we let solely the code express everything we do, then why do people emote while sparring, or crafting, or anything else? Why should theft have to be any different?

Wanting to protect my character's possessions is almost always both an OOC AND and IC desire. Very few PCs actually -want- to lose the things they've killed and risked their lives to obtain. Calling my motivations entirely OOC misses the point that my _character_ also noticed someone "brushing a hand over his cloak". And since that otherwise NEVER happens to him, you can fairly expect him to react to it. If you emote it, and I percieve it, expect a reaction.

It's not a matter of your perception, it's a matter of your character's perception. There's a very sound difference, and as an Immortal privy to all kinds of IC-sensitive information the rest of the playerbase is not, I'm positive you know it.

As I said, if your character would react to every of the faintest grazing they receive in a tavern as theft then by all means, play it that way, but remember that there are VNPCs and a potentially huge crowd of potentially close-contact people to account for, especially if you're walking through it.

Do you emote brushing into NPCs/VNPCs as you walk through taverns? I've -never- seen a Someone do this.

Never? I do it all the time actually, Xygax. Not every last one, granted, but I do it and I've seen others do it very, very often in fact. If I steal from an NPC or VNPC, I drop an emote regarding how it was done just the same as I do any other.

If I emoted that I caught "Someone"'s hand in my pocket, would you return whatever you'd stolen?

If I emoted beating you senseless and taking your belongings, would you submit?

Armageddon offers CODED results to actions like this specifically because of this "I _felt_ it!!" "No you didn't!!" BS. Use them, or go play a MUSH.

My emote accompanying the steal, as I stated, is a matter of expression. If I failed my steal attempt and you emoted catching my hand, you're damn right I'd play it that way. If you beat me senseless and took my possessions codewise, how could I disagree?

Likewise, if I successfully steal from you without you noticing, and drop an emote along the way you shouldn't have any unusual reaction from that gentle brush on your cloak. You might flip out cause someone touched you, but you won't know how and you won't know why - well, you might, but your character sure shouldn't.

I didn't say I was breaking character. It's easy to come up with an endless stream of legit IC reasons to leave a crowded tavern. Especially if people I can't see are fondling me.

Should you really make IC excuses for OOC motivations? I gotta say, I'm vaguely reminded of rat-sapping Bynners in the Labyrinth, or stories from the staff of backgrounds that included "Amos hates beggars and thinks they all should die!!" as a justification for killing them.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This is becoming astoundingly amusing. This is how it should be, and while you can say all that you want that I'm not right, or that I should not assume that I am right, this is the bottom line.

Don't emote while hidden unless you are ready for folks who would notice a normal emote to react as though they had just seen something bad happen. Period. There really can be no argument unless you are slow of wit.

You are hidden, and your PC is unseen. Thus, your personal actions should also be unseen. If you do something to affect another NPC, VNPC, or PC, then there is no one arguing that you should not emote. But when you are doing nothing more than picking your motherfucking nose, do not emote.

That is the end of it.

[Xygax]

No, I'm expressing - successful or not - what exactly I did in the coded action, Xygax. If we let solely the code express everything we do, then why do people emote while sparring, or crafting, or anything else? Why should theft have to be any different?

People emote sparring because it adds to the environment.  I'm suggesting people NOT emote their hidden activities because it only -confuses- the environment.

My emote accompanying the steal, as I stated, is a matter of expression. If I failed my steal attempt and you emoted catching my hand, you're damn right I'd play it that way. If you beat me senseless and took my possessions codewise, how could I disagree?

Express yourself in a think-emote, then...  I don't like these "hidden emotes" anymore than I like people emoting out fist-fights.  When you're emoting as "someone" hidden, you don't know that I -don't- have some prescience that reveals you to me.

Likewise, if I successfully steal from you without you noticing, and drop an emote along the way you shouldn't have any unusual reaction from that gentle brush on your cloak. You might flip out cause someone touched you, but you won't know how and you won't know why - well, you might, but your character sure shouldn't.

Again (and you haven't really addressed this point), why did you emote it, if I (and no one around me) were not meant to see/react to it?

I didn't say I was breaking character. It's easy to come up with an endless stream of legit IC reasons to leave a crowded tavern. Especially if people I can't see are fondling me.

Should you really make IC excuses for OOC motivations? I gotta say, I'm vaguely reminded of rat-sapping Bynners in the Labyrinth, or stories from the staff of backgrounds that included "Amos hates beggars and thinks they all should die!!" as a justification for killing them.

You've given me no other alternative, by your own play.  You've placed me in a difficult situation OOCly, expecting me to somehow magickally divine the reaction you expect AND roleplay it out.  When other players emote, they expect (in general) that I am observing their actions, and so don't object when I react to them.  You "someone"s on the other hand are expecting me either to react (but no so strongly that it results in you losing your mark, or getting caught), or to do nothing,  I think that's decidedly unfair.

-- X

[sacac]

The only reason I see why to emote is this.. If someone's PC seems to be watching me.. then I have to do something besides act like a statue, When 'Someone' does something.. it's because someone sees it happening.. I happen to think that pc's do a lot mroe then we can emote for.. or we would be spending our lives trying to RP out thier lifetime.. So by emoting things, it's showing that someone is watching you.. Just my thought on the idea.

[Forest Junkie]

IMO, it goes both ways though.

Instance: The 'someone' in question gives forth -no- effort to emote, or add nothing in the game. They just sit there, in the tavern, hiding. You're telling me that this is acceptable? You won't criticize them for putting forth absolutely no effort at all to at least interact to some small degree?

If that's true, then hell, my next pc is going to be a sneaky one. They seem to be the easiest to roleplay.

[spawnloser]

The thing is, doing whatever a sneaky type is doing is adding to the game, even if noone watches him, when done correctly and intelligently.

[Supreme Allah]

Express yourself in a think-emote, then... I don't like these "hidden emotes" anymore than I like people emoting out fist-fights.

As it stands, Xygax, "someone" emotes are directly supported by the code. Think-emotes on the other hand are not. It's likely a fact that the majority of characters cannot read thoughts, but who am I to assume that noone can? Just because you don't "like" someone emotes doesn't give you the right to disregard the code and the roleplay of others in your crusade against them.

When you're emoting as "someone" hidden, you don't know that I -don't- have some prescience that reveals you to me.

If you could in fact see and identify me, then I would not have shown up as "someone" in the first place, Xygax. This is, quite simply, the work of the scan skill, not any player's individual decision.

Again (and you haven't really addressed this point), why did you emote it, if I (and no one around me) were not meant to see/react to it?

I have addressed this point. You were meant to see and react to it, but you were meant to do so in-character, not as a player in defiance of the code.

You've given me no other alternative, by your own play. You've placed me in a difficult situation OOCly, expecting me to somehow magickally divine the reaction you expect AND roleplay it out.

I'm expecting you to read what the code gives you and interpret it in-character rather than otherwise. I don't think it's asking that much. Dozens of players I've interacted with in this manner have handled it in an absolutely superb fashion.

When other players emote, they expect (in general) that I am observing their actions, and so don't object when I react to them. You "someone"s on the other hand are expecting me either to react (but no so strongly that it results in you losing your mark, or getting caught), or to do nothing, I think that's decidedly unfair.

Again, it's a judgement call that I believe any player can handle. Knowing "Someone" is there OOCly isn't any more sensitive than knowing some of the things any given player may know from experience that their character does not. As such, I believe it should be handled responsibly.

Your character can see, observe, and react to whatever degree he likes, but do so within the scope of their vision, not your own.

By the way: check out the poll results, Xygax. Though no "stand;n;inv;eq" is offered, I think that's quite akin to the scan option that's currently six feet under in votes. On the other hand, the ignore them would still be steamrolling the other two options if they were combined and doubled.

Granted, the real answer's situational, as Bestatte described, but I think it'd be quite a feat for you to draw from those numbers a conclusion that doesn't directly oppose your given solution.

[X-D]

I think allah has the right of it in most ways.

Xygax wrote:

People emote sparring because it adds to the environment. I'm suggesting people NOT emote their hidden activities because it only -confuses- the environment.

I agree with the first sentence.

I disagree with the idea to the second sentence 100% and then some.

You emote to enhance the environment for the other players and -yourself- to enhance the total story/game. Even when hidden you may have to do things, also, just because xygax char does not see the hidden person does not mean mine can't, Xygax, I do not think you react to every non-hidden emote you see, why should a hidden emote be any different? But no, you stated you get up and leave after checking gear, not sometimes you get up an leave, or get up and scan or sit and check eq or sit and do nothing, therefor you do something -strictly- for ooc reasons -and- with what really amounts to ooc knowledge, If you see someone does whatever on your screen and your scan is not picking them up, your PC Did Not See It, end of story.

Now, I'm also going to have to say, the people doing emotes while hidden need to think about them a bit more, using an actual instance just a day or so ago, somebody emoted passing directly in front of somebody else, Myself, I found this poorly done, the hidden person should have then entered a command that would make him vis, It is silly to think somebody walking is not going to notice somebody passing in front of them and even sillier to expect the person to ignore it (though the person did). If hidden I think people should try and do environment style emotes, then it is easy to ignore the someone.

[Anonymous]

Again (and you haven't really addressed this point), why did you emote it, if I (and no one around me) were not meant to see/react to it?

For those people and staff who could see you.

I've never had a PC that could hide well, from what I recall, so it's a mute issue for me personally.

But I would be looking at it from the point of view of a person who could see my hidden PC.  It wouldn't be very cool if I crept up on them and stole their pants while they were able to see me.

I wish emotes by hidden people were only visible by folks who can, through code, look at the hidden person.  It would remove all this ambiguity but still allow the player to interact with those who can see them and also show the logic behind their actions to staff.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I find this debate very interesting, and contrary to Venomz bull-headed post, the right answer is no simple thing.

If you emote while hidden:  People now know something that their characters don't.  This information gives them the OOC information that there is somebody in the room, and furthermore that that character can do nasty things like steal their swords, pin cushion them with throwing knives, or perhaps even call forth sinister magick.  While a poor player might be delighted to be given the warning and take it as a call to immediately type scan ten times or spam walk to their nice, safe clan compound, the rest of us are going to pissed, and rightly so, that they were given OOC information, and thus both the suspension of disbelief and the suspense of the moment are denied to them.

If you don't emote while hidden:  What if you only think you're hidden, but in truth you're standing out to one or more people in the room that can see you through mundane ability or otherwise.  Those people are going to want to know if it looks like you're about to backstab Lord Inbreed, and they're also going to know where your general location in the room is, so they can stay away from you in case you're a pickpocket.  In this case, failing to emote is cheating them out of information that they clearly deserve.  Perhaps they aren't even looking at you, because they'd rather pretend that they can't see you so that they can watch what you're doing.

In a perfect world we wouldn't have this problem, but until we can emote secretly, then we're forced to choose to cater either to those who can see you, or those who cannot.  I'll add here that I don't think there is any room in the game for people who are just emoting to add flavor to their coded actions, even though people may not see them.  If I get stolen from, I don't WANT to know OOCly how it happened, and I certainly don't want to know who did it.  My character getting pissed off and going off to play "smear the longneck" in some dark alley is plenty of interaction for me.  A player of a thief is benefiting the game plenty by enforcing the reality that the city is swarming with thieves, because life is harsh.  They shouldn't think emoting is necessary to the worth of themselves or their characters.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, I mean, if we really wanna be gangsters about it, the best way currently for people to know what is up with you who can see you is to set your long description to what you are doing. This way, only those who can see you can know.

I just don't care what anyone says. Emoting while hidden is OOCly wrong, and it is ICly stupid. Your character is hidden, and your private actions are therefore hidden.

[Anonymous]

I like EvilRoeSlade's post.

I would really like to hear an argument against making emotes made by hidden characters only visible to those who can actually look at the hidden character.  I think from a playability standpoint that would tidy up this situation really nicely.  Obviously it might be different from a coding standpoint.

[Bestatte]

Well, I mean, if we really wanna be gangsters about it, the best way currently for people to know what is up with you who can see you is to set your long description to what you are doing. This way, only those who can see you can know.

I just don't care what anyone says. Emoting while hidden is OOCly wrong, and it is ICly stupid. Your character is hidden, and your private actions are therefore hidden.

If you had seen that action:

>From the back of the room, someone chucks a rotten petoch fruit over the crowd and lands it square in the other guy's face.

You wouldn't think it was OOCly wrong or ICly stupid. It made TOTAL sense, both IC and OOC, and everyone who was there, that I know of, got a kick out of it, both ICly and OOCly.

I've seen many instances of people who are hidden moving around the room...I see someone running past a templar on the way out.. I see someone pushing through a group of hunters on the way to a corner table. I see someone doing this that and the other thing.

I have no need to know who it is, I have no need to scan, I have no need to make any note of it, in most cases, in an IC way, because what they're doing has no affect on my character directly. It's just atmospheric stuff, and I appreciate it immensely.

When someone does something that affects my character specifically, or someone who I am with, or guarding, THEN I will react ICly to it, because it's either my ass or the ass of the person I'm guarding at stake.

I don't see any problem with any of this at all.

However, if I see someone doing something that jars me from the RP...such as what someone else said - "Someone walks in front of you" - then yeah I'm gonna be jarred and annoyed. If someone is that close to me, then I damned well can see who that someone is.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm starting to wonder if folks even read posts any longer before replying.

I said, if it effects other folks, then it is a good thing to emote, as in throwing a fruit, someone laughing at you from the crowd, etc. If you are just picking your nose, scratching your ass or whatnot, it is not.

I said, hidden people should not emote their hidden actions. Only the actions which would be actually seen by someone whom you may be hidden from should be emoted, like, the throwing of that fruit, the laughing...

I mean, how difficult is that to understand? Basically, what I said is what everyone is saying, and yet I get the bullheaded comment and such...

[Forest Junkie]

Holy Fuck dude, calm down.

You said, in your -last- post: Emoting while hidden is OOCly wrong, and it is ICly stupid.

You seem to contradict your post at the top of the page, I take it?

In any case, it's cool. No one hates you, or is trying to give you a bullheaded comment, we just kinda disagree. After all, your opinion is as respected as much as anyone else's. =P

[sacac]

I agree with VeNoMz.. They are saying the exact same thing that everyone else is.. Bestatte.. not to pick on you.. but your post restated thiers..

[EvilRoeSlade]

I just don't care what anyone says. Emoting while hidden is OOCly wrong, and it is ICly stupid. Your character is hidden, and your private actions are therefore hidden.

I think I understand what you're saying.  The difficulty of people understanding you probably came when you said that, an apparent contradiction to your earlier and later posts.  Perhaps you changed your mind during this whole thing?

Oh, and also, I don't care what you say either.  Though I am confused as to why you're even bothering continuing this debate when you obviously have no regard for other peoples opinions.

Furthermore, besides the example of the rotten fruit, Bestatte also said she had no problems with hidden people emoting entirely for the purpose of breathing life into the environment.  I disagree, and from reading your latest post, Venomz, I would surmise that you do also.  Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that.  Animating the environment should be the task of the unhidden, who won't leak OOC information with their emotes.  As a general rule, I am in favor of emoting, but there is an exception to every rule, and in this case a hidden person is that exception.  That being said, the balance of supporting those who may be aware of your presence and those who may not be is a delicate line to walk, and is a decision that people with the hide skill should make in stride with their specific situations.

Basically, what I said is what everyone is saying, and yet I get the bullheaded comment and such...

Note that my comment had nothing to do with your opinions, simply the fact that you seem to be insisting that you're always right and nobody should disagree with you.  Ever.  An attitude like that puts a chip on my shoulder.

Anyway, this is the last post for the night, and next time I check the GDB I'll likely have already faded into obscurity on this topic.

Toodles!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think I understand what you're saying.  The difficulty of people understanding you probably came when you said that, an apparent contradiction to your earlier and later posts.  Perhaps you changed your mind during this whole thing?

I didn't change my mind, but perhaps I did not clearly state what I truely meant. What I truely mean was that if your actions affect only you, and no other VNPC, NPC, or PC, then they should remain hidden...things like this are fine emotes: em a number of folks laugh at ~nerd, and @ throws a sack of kankshit at !nerd, the leather straps holding the manure within loosening as it hurtles through the air towards !nerd while things like this: em adjusts a strap on ~leather as he shifts his positions within the shadows, watching the room silently are not. The former affects someone else, the latter only you.

Oh, and also, I don't care what you say either.  Though I am confused as to why you're even bothering continuing this debate when you obviously have no regard for other peoples opinions.

Bah...I'm upping my damned post count. You couldn't see through that? Nah, I just have a strong view on many things, and perhaps I'm not used to having to argue my point through, which is truely in itself rather childish...really, I suppose I've no excuse at all.

Furthermore, besides the example of the rotten fruit, Bestatte also said she had no problems with hidden people emoting entirely for the purpose of breathing life into the environment.  I disagree, and from reading your latest post, Venomz, I would surmise that you do also.  Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that.  Animating the environment should be the task of the unhidden, who won't leak OOC information with their emotes.  As a general rule, I am in favor of emoting, but there is an exception to every rule, and in this case a hidden person is that exception.  That being said, the balance of supporting those who may be aware of your presence and those who may not be is a delicate line to walk, and is a decision that people with the hide skill should make in stride with their specific situations.

Exactly as you have said. I support emoting 100 percent, but, if hidden, your emoting needs to take a back seat to the fact that you are now clearly within the realm of code, and this code says that folks have not noticed you...or at least, it seems that way. So, if you are going to use the code to hide, then why use the code to reveal that you are using the code to hide?

Note that my comment had nothing to do with your opinions, simply the fact that you seem to be insisting that you're always right and nobody should disagree with you.  Ever.  An attitude like that puts a chip on my shoulder.

Oh. Well. Nobody should ever disagree with me. Ever. I'm kinda playing about that. The fact is, however, that without arguments such as we have here at times, things will never get resolved, and I'd never learn anything. I'm always rather astounded when I do learn something new, or gain a new revelation on something, but I crave those moments. I am not really a person who must always be right, but at times like this, it just seems as though the path is so clear and the way so obvious, and it just seems so...astounding that folks could not see it the way I do.

That said, I apologize for the manner in which my posts were presented, but not for my views, which I'll still stand by and still believe were and are ultimately correct.

And, for those watching at home, I like Slade.

[Xygax]

The "Hitler" of all GDB discussions.  Settle it with a poll:

Hitler!

[Rindan]

Simply put, when you hidden emote you are disrupting your victim.  I would rather a hidden person do what they will without telling me, rather then tell me just to make extra sure I don't feel cheated in some way or another about loosing my knife.

There have been many times while playing Armageddon where something I thought was surely a secret turned out not to be.  In fact, I recalled in instances in particular where a conversation I had that I thought was in private some how came back to me in a very bad way.  If someone else had been present at that conversation, I will never know.  I do not know if it was overheard by someone hidden, if I was betrayed, or a mind bender ripped it from my thoughts.  I am glad I didn't know because my role play was not disrupted.  I didn't have to sit there and try and divine the difference between what I suspected and what my character suspected.  We shared the same level of ignorance and it made playing out that event truly fun and exciting.  If someone had OOCed to me that they discovered through X means, I would have been very pissed off.  If someone had done a hidden emote to inform me during the secret conversation, that would have basically been the same as them OOCing to me how they learned.

Hidden emoting when you don't want people to respond is like OOCly telling them your plans in my opinion.  It is like a thief OOCing "Hey, I just stole your knife while you were looking the other way".  It is like a subordinate saying, "I heard your plans to off me, I am going to try and assassinate you before you do."  It is information I don't need and sure as hell don't want.  I don't want the Staff drop down from the sky and tell me the big plot, I don't want the assassin to tell me that he is trailing me, I don't want to know what your character's plans are for me, I don't want to know what the templar is thinking.  I enjoy the ignorance of my character and find the game is at its best when I am as shocked, surprised, and confused as my character.  I don't want the damned OOC information, please don't give it.  I'll happily sacrifice 'big' picture in exchange for a clear view of MY picture.

Take for instance the example Supreme Allah gives, a thief brushing past his victim.  That sounds harmless, right?  No, it isn't.  If the victim is not allowed to respond to that by checking their inventory and checking to see if they were stolen from, then it means they have to treat it like any other person pushing past, which is to say they must ignore it.  Still harmless, right?  Now, consider the OOC information you have just given that person and how that might have disrupted their world.  The victim now OOCly knows not only where he lost what was stolen, but also that it was someone not visible to him, so anyone who is visible is clearly no the thief, and he knows the time of the theft.  That is a pile of OOC information he would have otherwise not of known.  It might have been days before the victim would have naturally realized something was amiss, and the victim could have suspected anyone.  Now, all of that natural fear and suspicion has been robbed from the player OOCly.  Instead of being on the same level as that character with suspicions and fears, the player has to separate himself.  The player has to arbitrarily decide how perceptive their character is and how much they know.  That OOC information you gave robbed the player of a lot, and if that item you stole was important, then  you robbed them a great deal as they already know a great deal about who and how it was robbed.

What did the victim gain in exchange for all of the OOC information dumped on their lap?  They gained the knowledge that at least they were not twinked out of the item.  Bah.  You might feel good in that you covered your ass and proved to someone you are not a twink, but you did it at potentially a great cost to the victim.  The knowledge the item was twinked away was not worth all that was lost from the OOC information dump that occurred.

Please don't share such OOC information.  I would rather risk twinks stealing then I would risk having my vision severely disrupted.  Don't OOC to tell me you are going to plan an assassination, don't OOC me to tell me your templars thoughts, don't OOC me to tell me the grand plot, and don't OOC me through your emotes to tell me what you are doing.  I don't want the OOC information, don't give it.

[X-D]

I said earlier, people doing hidden emotes IMO should stay with environmental emotes.

Also, I really think that "someone" should be replaced with like "something", I personaly think that the someone message is as jarring as the old rescue "Bonzai!".

And by environmental emotes, in case anybody does not know.

A dull creak is heard like someone settling into a chair.

The soft rustle of leaves being crushed slowly can be heard as someone moves in the woods.


Though, they look much better if your sub someone for something, besides, even animals that are hidden, if a staff member causes the animal to emote it still comes across as "someone"

A dull creak is heard like something settling into a chair.

The soft rustle of leaves being crushed slowly can be heard as something moves in the woods.

Oh, one other thing, there is at least one point when I think you -should- emote an action while hidden...Thats when you are about to become unhidden in front of somebody, And those emotes can be quite fun.

em chuckles quietly as he drops from a large branch over %pc head landing easily a few cords in front of !pc and performing an easy bow.

[Anonymous]

Simply put, when you hidden emote you are disrupting your victim.  I would rather a hidden person do what they will without telling me, rather then tell me just to make extra sure I don't feel cheated in some way or another about loosing my knife.

But what if your victim can see you?  But just hasn't bothered to use the look command?

I'd rather err on the side of the victim, personally.  Which is again why [broken_record]I think that emotes made by hidden PCs should only be visible to PCs who could conceivably see them.[/broken_record]

I sneak into a noble's chamber.  The noble is able to see me but instead of doing a look, decides he'll start to emote going through a chest.  He's going through the chest to get a weapon, but I don't know that.  Meanwhile he's also using psi_contact to try and call his guards.

Now, if I emoted sneaking up from behind him he could react accordingly.  But if I don't, because I'm passing out OOC info, as you say, and just type `backstab noble` I've inadvertantly bypassed the fact that he was well aware that I was there and was planning to mount a defense.

And in dealing with a situation where I'm about to kill another PC through those means, I would like to do everything in my power to make sure the scene is handled properly.