Idea: Increase cast times for STRONG spells

[Armaddict]

Less focus on how strong something is in relation to pk might go a long ways towards making things feel more "fun and balanced".

That is the opposite of how things normally go.  PvP scenarios are the greatest cause of animosity for how strong/weak things are precisely because they are in direct conflict with each other.  That is not just an element of Armageddon, that's across all PvE/PvP combined games where there is not an 'opt-in' system of PvP.

That being said, I wouldn't say 'balance' is exactly the end goal; Magick is supposed to be ungodly strong in certain scenarios and as far as world impact, which is why us lowly mundanes fear it, thematically.  But as I said before, anytime you're 'retuning' combat, it makes sense to examine all participants of combat.  I'd be much less standoffish in replies if that simple bit were acknowledged; I don't need the original idea to be -the way-, but we sure could use the opportunity to examine the system as a whole and make it richer while also keeping things on an even keel.  Unless I see a statement that 'Increasing magick's effectiveness in combat' was a sought-after part of the retune, I remain on the side of the fence that says 'Yes, we should probably address that this made magick stronger in combat scenarios.'

[DesertT]

All this conversation makes me wonder if there's been an inadvertent side effect of NOT having a karma jail.

Go ahead.  Hate me even more.

[zealus]

All this conversation makes me wonder if there's been an inadvertent side effect of NOT having a karma jail.

Go ahead.  Hate me even more.

The exactly expected result happened, being an uptick in magickers, yes.

That being said, I think mana is the limited factor. Though some spells still are quite powerful.
But I don't do a lot of PVP so heh.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I think uptick is selling it a bit short - staff mentioned in another post that pretty much half of all PCs are magickers now.

I actually do think cast times should be lengthened - some casts are pretty much instant which I think is wonky and can be easily rapidfired.  But maybe not so much as was suggested in the OP.  I do like the tradeoff for quicker cast times idea too, but maybe if people don't like the crit idea, then maybe just needing more mana for the given power level or something.

[HammerofJericho]

One way or the other,  the first person to get something off usually wins. It's a system based on rock paper scissors and pvp/pk leads to animosity. The system rewards twinking and code. It's a big theme that conflict means war to the death.

I've seen arrows do 110+ hp damage in one shot. I've seen people get charged and instantly killed.  Backstab that just drops someone.  Sap.... Poisons are still effective although harder in practice.

So what is the issue with magick that is so much different?

[Armaddict]

So what is the issue with magick that is so much different?

Those other methods you mentioned require a long period grind rife with danger in the vast majority of cases unless you find some method of non-twinkily doing it, which is difficult.  Most risk-averse methods of training come with natural caps.  Most of them require some sort of interaction with people in order to have the best chance of being protected.  Most of them require circumstances to be in a good way for them to use it.  Most of them are not consistently so deadly, and require unison with the part of combat that has been slowed down.  Not to mention, most of them are freely discussed for changes without people saying that doing it would break everything, where even defenders of its need are welcoming to suggestions of alternatives to keep them deadly but make them more healthy for the game.  Most of them can be made stronger via conjunction with magick in the first place.

Above all...no one is saying to treat magick differently.  The discussion is based off of giving magick the same treatment that mundane combat received.  Not singling it out.  Including it.

[RheaGhe]

One way or the other,  the first person to get something off usually wins. It's a system based on rock paper scissors and pvp/pk leads to animosity. The system rewards twinking and code. It's a big theme that conflict means war to the death.

I've seen arrows do 110+ hp damage in one shot. I've seen people get charged and instantly killed.  Backstab that just drops someone.  Sap.... Poisons are still effective although harder in practice.

So what is the issue with magick that is so much different?

Backstabbing requires many many many stabs to NPC's backs that can go wrong, leave you with a large delay and in combat potentially with multiple people, and/or crimcode enforcement. Sap, same deal. Charge requires you to get on a mount and fight things, generally outside the walls. Arrows require hundreds of arrows fired and missed, and unless in specific factions you won't get a dummy to practice on, so that means shooting at rats and then shooting at chalton, and then shooting at Scrab. And so o. With potentially dozens to hundreds of arrows broken as you step up a long ladder.

Poison is even more complex. Than those. And more expensive. And time consuming.

Magic requires sitting in an apartment/safe room casting "horn sphere element mood figure" over and over and over. And occasionally going out to harvest resources if you're practicing a really strong spell.

Don't get me wrong, thematically, I think magic is awesome. I think balance wise though, the effort put in by a sap or backstab user rewards the pay off of being able to SITUATIONALLY one shot someone.

I also think the training that Sap, backstab, et al, get, leads to more appropriate usage of those abilities.

I also think IF they were as potent as high end magic, you'd see a LOT more people playing them, just like Magickers. But you don't. Which leads to a natural question emerging... Why?

[Riev]

I just gotta say I need to get my hands on these one-shotting magickers ya'll are playing.

[RheaGhe]

I just gotta say I need to get my hands on these one-shotting magickers ya'll are playing.

The general perception that I have heard, in and out of character. Is that if a magicker wants your mundane character dead, and is on an even slightly even playing field. you will die.

It may not be 1 shot. It may be,

Fire spell for 80 health
sword swing for 20.
neg 5 health
Dead the next hit.

By 1 shot, I'm using the worst possible case, to indicate a place where the all or nothing balance point is unsteady. Because that fire spell that does 80 damage. That water spell that does a DoT for 200. You can survive maybe that. But can you tango with them after it?

In some ways, the magickers which use predominantly attribute buffs and high end weapon magicks, are actually a significant less of a balance issue.

The issue is when Amos Vivadus places a heavy mon horned poison on you, and there's literally nothing you can do except maybe take him with you; Oh wait. Amos Vivadus can heal himself too, probably. And also is a Raider, so has all the combat skill access you do.

[FlyingFerret911]

This is a world ravaged by magic and ruled by sorcerer Kings.

Every mage I have played has been --underpowered-- compared to combat characters.

---The spells of master mages should be just so. Powerful.  It fits the game setting. World history. Entire theme of the game. ---
Setting wise. Magic is SUPPOSE to be more powerful than the average man. Terrifying. Which is why mages are hunted and hated. Despised and condemned.

It's not suppose to be fair.

But code wise? Most combat focused pc's can easily kill even a master mage. Especially with some skellebaine and simple strategy. Currently mages are underpowered.
You get two shots at using a spell at high level. If you fail, you fail. If they resist, they resist.  After that, you can't do anything high level.

That's if they don't get you with skellebaine first, or knowing you are mage, take the appropriate strategy against you when engaging and through code.

This is like asking warrior based pc's who spent a lot of honing their skills to finally become powerful to also be nerfed after a certain skill level just to make it easier to fight against them.
It takes a lot of effort to get a character up to such a level, and that's true for both fighting and magic pcs.   

That's a lot of hours to put in, and a lot to survive through as magickers are hated and even hunted. One shots.. my pcs have been killed by combat characters simply typing kill x and killing my character in two blows . I've seen other characters killed in taverns by a bolt from outside, one shot.


Maybe allow those who have survived that long with a character generally despised, hunted, and reviled by society, to actually use magic at a potent level without punishing them for making it so far.

[SpyGuy]

Ferret, with magick subclasses the fighting/wilderness PCs are often the mages too.  Though magic does take time to practice it's one of the easiest types of skills to train with almost no threat to your PC if you're in a safe area. And it skills up quickly compared to combat.

I like the idea of potent casting taking more time but have no idea how to balance that.  It's a nerf to some subclasses but wouldn't matter much for the enchantment magicks.

My ideal wouldn't be to weaken magic at all but to make it have a bigger cost.  Social, weaknesses when casting or in certain conditions, through exposure to danger when training or through the loss of your PCs humanity.  Full guilds may solve some issues (they're certainly a bigger trade off in skills/abilities) but we'll see what direction staff take it.

[HammerofJericho]

I've had maxed mages die to sap and backstab plenty.  Even with higher combat skills. My spells didn't save me because you can't always roll around spelled up if you're being realistic. And if you want any kind of interactions you shouldn't be doing that. I personally give players the leeway to react in game and don't go for the instant kill. I think a heavier hand on people doing this with powerful spells would be the answer.  Not codedly nerfing things when there's a poophead playing a strong mage.

[dumbstruck]

I've had maxed mages die to sap and backstab plenty.  Even with higher combat skills. My spells didn't save me because you can't always roll around spelled up if you're being realistic. And if you want any kind of interactions you shouldn't be doing that. I personally give players the leeway to react in game and don't go for the instant kill. I think a heavier hand on people doing this with powerful spells would be the answer.  Not codedly nerfing things when there's a poophead playing a strong mage.

All of the above, and bolded for emphasis.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I've had maxed mages die to sap and backstab plenty.  Even with higher combat skills. My spells didn't save me because you can't always roll around spelled up if you're being realistic.

What's this have to do with the discussion though?  You mentioned your spells didn't save you in those specific circumstances - what would a longer cast time or other tradeoff matter in that case to those circumstances in that case?  Or are you trying to suggest that because mages aren't 100% invulnerable currently, that they shouldn't be looked at?

I really think they should, given how many there are now - as such they are a big factor in game balance now.  I think it's also important to keep in mind, as was already pointed out prior, mages can also obtain those skills that you're talking about with their main guild, and can do them even better with magickal enhancements available to them.

[Lotion]

just shoot arrows from a different room and then leave the room you're in before they get a chance to look in the direction. there is no reason you should not abuse diagonal blindness in PvP. if a mekillot and use diagonal blindness to gank a fucking warband of shitcloaks then a single dude on an erdlu with a bow can absolutely juke a random caster
alternatively shoot an arrow, swap to melee, enter the same room and type charge/bash. then dismount->bash or just rebash

alternatively shoot a blowgun

bring a friend with a blowgun and then bash them after the dart hits

if they have a spell effect that makes melee damage not useful against them just shoot a lot of poisoned crossbow bolts at them
everyone gets the crossbow skill! if you can't get someone to put skellebaine on a crossbow bolt for you and are too afraid to run into combat with a few loaded hand crossbows then why isn't a witch so scary?

[titansfan]

Is the goal here to make mages less desirable to play? Or are we trying to balance the game? What does a long casting time add besides the ability to stomp a mage when they try to use their magick? Just give mundane other cool benefits and stop trying to nerf everything in my opinion.

[DesertT]

Bring Back Karma Jail!!

[dumbstruck]

Bring Back Karma Jail!!

Because driving 1/4 of the pbase away at a given time to cool down is the way?

I mean, if you think it's the solution, I'll tell you the same thing I said before it drove people to sit out the game for months at a time waiting to play what they wanted to play originally. "You can't make people play what they don't want to play, you can only make people not play, so if your desired result is people not playing, go for it." How do I know this? I'm the exact person who will make a character they don't want to play, optimistically, then wind up letting it sit, unplayed, for months, until I'm tired of not playing, and then come back to play something I want to play. And that's not even the extreme of someone who just won't play at all, I'm optimistic and trying and just find the role I tried was... still something I didn't like, let it sit until I can't stand it, never playing it because it wasn't what I like or want, and then when something changes so I'm playing something I actually enjoy... actually be found in the game... a thing people do for fun.

[Riev]

Especially when you had to have an 'active' character for Karma to regen anyway.

I remember when this was a discussion board, not a pedestal for people to throw out unhelpful comments that just derail conversations.
... It was never like that? Shit. What am I thinking of?

[DesertT]

Why is this conversation even happening?

Why wasn't it a conversation prior to the removal of karma jail?

Maybe it's because of how often people are playing magickers now, even to the point of taking a shot at someone, failing, storing, and then re-rolling a new magicker.

[SpyGuy]

Mages have had more than a few buffs in the past three years. New subclasses, new spells, new features, dispel reach, removal of karma jail. Not even going to argue they weren't good quality of life fixes to make being a mage easier or cool flavor stuff to make magick stand out a bit more.  But I think it's reasonable to look at ways to add a greater cost to using magick than currently exists. It isn't supposed to be an easy role. Stuff like increased casting time wouldn't break the game but I'm not sure that's the fix.

As for karma timers, I get people want to play what they want to play.  But if mundane roles are not attractive to a good chunk of players then that is a serious problem for the game. Mundane roles are what a new player will get exposed to and when a large percentage of PCs are mages it becomes difficult to accurately play a mundane that hates and fears magick because you're limiting your RP options so much. Mundanes currently get overshadowed by mages in a lot of ways. Personally I think that's a problem for the game long-term and just leads to more people choosing mage subclasses because that's where the action is.

[Riev]

The discussion of karma timers should be its own topic. Its three clicks.

There has been some talk of codedly limiting the amount of active magickers in the game, by type, to try and reduce the effect of them.

Frankly, magick is more powerful than mundane. Thats just how it is. How many "world plots" happen around units of mundane players versus "that one super spooky sorceror and his undead army #15122". Playing a mundane is supposed to be the default, but the game does not incentivize the default. So of course, anyone who can play a magicker is going to bend that way.

Making playing a magicker suck is the same "punish everyone" attitude that is so prevalent. What if mundanes were empowered somehow? More plot support, more SUPPORTED hatred and distrust of witches both by staff and by players. Stop inviting every gemmed on an adventure because you can, and invite a mundane who is better simply by not being cursed with 'gick blood.


Increasing the time it takes a mage to cast is just punishing/nerfing/whatever and maybe we could focus on how to give mundane play a better feeling.

[Jimpka_Moss]

@op

That's a broad change, and a long delay. I like the motivation, but what's been offered is not a viable solution. I don't think it will solve things.

As a response to the discussion going on, I really dislike trying to roleplay in a roguelike, especially with any kind of karma roles or plot attachment, because the murderhobos doing so before me ruined it for those with less karma, or just coming up, and now the entire interaction between hated magickers and combat chars is just who can mechanically kill the other quickest. I feel like a minority in a war of really loud voices and maxed out chars for not (ab)using every possible advantage.

[whengravityfails]

Making playing a magicker suck is the same "punish everyone" attitude that is so prevalent. What if mundanes were empowered somehow? More plot support, more SUPPORTED hatred and distrust of witches both by staff and by players. Stop inviting every gemmed on an adventure because you can, and invite a mundane who is better simply by not being cursed with 'gick blood.


Increasing the time it takes a mage to cast is just punishing/nerfing/whatever and maybe we could focus on how to give mundane play a better feeling.

Exactly this. People have this knee jerk reaction to punish and nerf instead of trying to make mundanes better and other non-coded negative consequences towards magickers. It's the lazy way instead of the creative way.

[Armaddict]

Nerfing is a thing in games, calling it punishment is taking it far too personally.  If your character gets their stats reduced for some action taken, that is punishment.  If it's decided mages' stats have been skewed upwards too far, that is nerfing, not punishment.

That being said, if you go back a number of years, you will see the exact opposite of this idea, where mages were segregated and mundanes were the ones wanted for plots and the players of mages felt too ostracized and punished societally.  There will be no 'feel good' solution to things of this nature, and it requires a mindset that is critical as far as notions of game design.

I'm not certain that nerfing needs to happen, or even adjustment.  But it seems worth discussion considering that everything else in combat was changed, to see if other changes need to move things along with it, and the discussion is less about consensus between players and more making sure all the ideas are out there so that staff evaluation can happen with all their superior toolsets for knowing such things.  But reducing discussion of whether changes need to happen, because of other changes, into 'punishment' is either poorly worded or poorly thought out.