Author Topic: On selecting a player council..  (Read 2074 times)

Patuk

  • Posts: 4522
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2023, 09:50:58 AM »
People on staff should never ever get to see things about your player account. That's how Shaloonsh did his thing. They should animate stuff only and never look at your things.

.

.

.

That is obviously a hasty attempt at satire, but consider just what you're arguing for here.
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Tailong

  • Posts: 123
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2023, 10:02:05 AM »
I think involving players in any staff decisions is a bad idea, but I am clearly alone in that belief. I have an issue with players being involved in any advisory role, because players are in fact just that; players. They are not staff, and hopefully there is a concise ruleset that governs the in's and out's of the Player Counsel.

You cannot assume that all staff are acting in bad faith because of accusations of one, or two bad actors. We cannot assume that all players are like that as well, but I would wager against the player over staff any day. Years of experience has taught me you cannot never fully trust anyone, but if you need place bets, bet against the player.

LauraMars

  • Posts: 9403
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2023, 12:29:39 AM »
I think involving players in any staff decisions is a bad idea, but I am clearly alone in that belief. I have an issue with players being involved in any advisory role, because players are in fact just that; players. They are not staff, and hopefully there is a concise ruleset that governs the in's and out's of the Player Counsel.

You cannot assume that all staff are acting in bad faith because of accusations of one, or two bad actors. We cannot assume that all players are like that as well, but I would wager against the player over staff any day. Years of experience has taught me you cannot never fully trust anyone, but if you need place bets, bet against the player.

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Pariah

  • Posts: 871
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2023, 01:09:13 AM »
As one of the guys picked by the roulette wheel of chance and asking about it.  There was 10 players who qualified for the draft.  Five of us were randomly selected by that spinning wheel of chance.

We were essentially chosen by a coin flip when you do those odds.

I can't speak for the rest, but I'm not going to do anything spiteful in this roll, I threw my hat in the ring because if another Bebop situation comes up and it's mishandled, I'll go down screaming at the top of my lungs against it.

Folks originally said that there was an error in staff picking the people, because favoritism and poor staff choices prior.

So then they went random and we still have people complaining about it.  I'm starting to wonder what will make anyone happy?

Staff is never going to give a non-staffer ultimate ban power, this is probably the best it's ever going to be, a group of players to sit at the table and advise and argue things.  Why is everyone still picking this apart?
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whengravityfails

  • Posts: 127
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2023, 03:22:36 AM »
Likely because some of us didn't want this to begin with and therefore don't want to be subject to it.
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LetaSpringle

  • Posts: 35
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2023, 07:16:35 AM »
Likely because some of us didn't want this to begin with and therefore don't want to be subject to it.

This.  All these out-of-game player things and councils and teams. All these restrictions for moderators and council members. More people doing stuff out of game, means less time they're spending in the game playing. I feel like the game is all the ooc stuff and the ic stuff is just "things to do while you wait to get involved in the ooc stuff"

I really hate it.

SpyGuy

  • Helper
  • Posts: 1588
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2023, 07:59:30 AM »
I’m all for the moderators.  Staff running the game and moderating discussion of it is part of what led to this situation.

My hope is that the player committee has very little to do.   In an ideal world staff complaints and bans would be rare.

Pariah

  • Posts: 871
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2023, 09:20:18 AM »
Likely because some of us didn't want this to begin with and therefore don't want to be subject to it.

This.  All these out-of-game player things and councils and teams. All these restrictions for moderators and council members. More people doing stuff out of game, means less time they're spending in the game playing. I feel like the game is all the ooc stuff and the ic stuff is just "things to do while you wait to get involved in the ooc stuff"

I really hate it.

Likely because some of us didn't want this to begin with and therefore don't want to be subject to it.

You're only subject to it if you get so far gone that they are considering banning you or you've done something so bad that it requires bringing up.  The average player isn't even going to ever interact with a player committee in any way.

Second point, about the ooc and ic barrier.  I personally have been trying to play my new homeboy and have been having trouble, not because of discord/gdb or the player committee (We haven't had anything to do yet.) but because I'm having trouble finding the movers and shakers who make shit happen, buy stuff, sell stuff, arrange things.

That to me is a far greater problem than anything distracting me. 

Which is why I posted this:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59294.msg1090919.html#new
"This is a game that has elves and magick, stop trying to make it realistic, you can't have them both in the same place."

Halaster

  • Producer
  • Posts: 3304
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2023, 10:10:00 AM »
You're only subject to it if you get so far gone that they are considering banning you or you've done something so bad that it requires bringing up.  The average player isn't even going to ever interact with a player committee in any way.

This is incorrect.

The Player Committee has 2 functions:

Quote
1.  Once a staff complaint is received and the Producer Team makes a decision on how to handle it, they will first relay that decision to the Player Committee for advice before finalizing it to the player making the complaint.  The Producer Team retains the final authority on how they are handled, but will be seeking counsel from the Player Committee when doing so.

2.  When a player receives a ban from the game the Player Committee will be notified of the details.


Halaster


Pariah

  • Posts: 871
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2023, 10:18:23 AM »
Ahh my bad, I just was trying to say that most players won't even interact with it unless something goes wrong.
"This is a game that has elves and magick, stop trying to make it realistic, you can't have them both in the same place."

Inks

  • Posts: 1791
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2023, 06:02:22 PM »
I've changed my mind and think it is a good idea.

I was confused about its function.
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LetaSpringle

  • Posts: 35
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2023, 08:20:15 PM »
Quote
2.  When a player receives a ban from the game the Player Committee will be notified of the details.

That's the part I don't consent to.



Brytta Léofa

  • Posts: 1206
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2023, 08:51:49 PM »
Quote
2.  When a player receives a ban from the game the Player Committee will be notified of the details.

That's the part I don't consent to.

- To me there isn't a qualitative distinction between the staff-vetted player volunteers who we call "staff" and the staff-vetted player volunteers who we call "the Player Committee". Especially if Storytellers are privy to the details of players being banned.

- I've played for 17 years without getting banned, but if I did I don't see why I would mind ~15 players on staff and ~5 players on the committee knowing about it. Like...I wouldn't be playing? (You don't have to have the same feelings as me about this, obviously.)

- I don't think my consent to this or any other staff policy matters. "Brytta's Armageddon account" isn't legally-protected data in the United States.
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LetaSpringle

  • Posts: 35
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2023, 10:11:43 PM »
Quote
2.  When a player receives a ban from the game the Player Committee will be notified of the details.

That's the part I don't consent to.

- To me there isn't a qualitative distinction between the staff-vetted player volunteers who we call "staff" and the staff-vetted player volunteers who we call "the Player Committee". Especially if Storytellers are privy to the details of players being banned.

- I've played for 17 years without getting banned, but if I did I don't see why I would mind ~15 players on staff and ~5 players on the committee knowing about it. Like...I wouldn't be playing? (You don't have to have the same feelings as me about this, obviously.)

- I don't think my consent to this or any other staff policy matters. "Brytta's Armageddon account" isn't legally-protected data in the United States.

I just think it's creepy.  When I make a complaint to the manager about bad customer service from my waitress, I would not want other customers to know that I was the one who complained or why when the waitress gets fired. As the waitress, I also wouldn't want the customers to know. My complaint against the waitress is not legally protected information either but I still wouldn't want the customers to know the details. It's none of their business.

Riev

  • Posts: 6314
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2023, 10:57:26 PM »
Quote
2.  When a player receives a ban from the game the Player Committee will be notified of the details.

That's the part I don't consent to.

- To me there isn't a qualitative distinction between the staff-vetted player volunteers who we call "staff" and the staff-vetted player volunteers who we call "the Player Committee". Especially if Storytellers are privy to the details of players being banned.

- I've played for 17 years without getting banned, but if I did I don't see why I would mind ~15 players on staff and ~5 players on the committee knowing about it. Like...I wouldn't be playing? (You don't have to have the same feelings as me about this, obviously.)

- I don't think my consent to this or any other staff policy matters. "Brytta's Armageddon account" isn't legally-protected data in the United States.

I just think it's creepy.  When I make a complaint to the manager about bad customer service from my waitress, I would not want other customers to know that I was the one who complained or why when the waitress gets fired. As the waitress, I also wouldn't want the customers to know. My complaint against the waitress is not legally protected information either but I still wouldn't want the customers to know the details. It's none of their business.

In your scenario, you're equating the player committee to the general public.

These are members of the public specifically chosen to ensure that the waitress receives a fair treatment and that the person reporting it is not just making false claims.
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LetaSpringle

  • Posts: 35
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2023, 08:42:24 AM »
Quote
2.  When a player receives a ban from the game the Player Committee will be notified of the details.

That's the part I don't consent to.

- To me there isn't a qualitative distinction between the staff-vetted player volunteers who we call "staff" and the staff-vetted player volunteers who we call "the Player Committee". Especially if Storytellers are privy to the details of players being banned.

- I've played for 17 years without getting banned, but if I did I don't see why I would mind ~15 players on staff and ~5 players on the committee knowing about it. Like...I wouldn't be playing? (You don't have to have the same feelings as me about this, obviously.)

- I don't think my consent to this or any other staff policy matters. "Brytta's Armageddon account" isn't legally-protected data in the United States.

I just think it's creepy.  When I make a complaint to the manager about bad customer service from my waitress, I would not want other customers to know that I was the one who complained or why when the waitress gets fired. As the waitress, I also wouldn't want the customers to know. My complaint against the waitress is not legally protected information either but I still wouldn't want the customers to know the details. It's none of their business.

In your scenario, you're equating the player committee to the general public.

These are members of the public specifically chosen to ensure that the waitress receives a fair treatment and that the person reporting it is not just making false claims.

I wouldn't ever work for a place like that. My opinion stands. It's creepy and it's none of the public's business.  This isn't a government or a democracy. It's a game. I want to play the game in the game and not have to worry about, or think about, or be officially informed about some other player I don't know, having problems with some staffer I don't know. It's none of my business and it's creepy.

Pariah

  • Posts: 871
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2023, 08:53:43 AM »
I wouldn't ever work for a place like that. My opinion stands. It's creepy and it's none of the public's business.  This isn't a government or a democracy. It's a game. I want to play the game in the game and not have to worry about, or think about, or be officially informed about some other player I don't know, having problems with some staffer I don't know. It's none of my business and it's creepy.

You aren't going to be notified, only the five of us on the committee are.

It's there to be a protection against things happening like what happened just recently.

So it's not just a staff vacuum.
"This is a game that has elves and magick, stop trying to make it realistic, you can't have them both in the same place."

tiny rainbow

  • Posts: 492
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2023, 08:59:42 AM »
The recent leaking of moderator discussion is a good example of how putting stuff in the hands of players can be not fixing problems, but just moving it, since they aren't trusted to the same standard (and a lot less since there are less stringent public guidelines for them):

Player appointed positions should be held to the same standards as everyone else, the individual should have been removed immediately from a position of trust, not just get a slap on the wrist - and a ban from the game too, to be equal to non-moderators doing similar stuff
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Pariah

  • Posts: 871
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2023, 09:02:47 AM »
The recent leaking of moderator discussion is a good example of how putting stuff in the hands of players can be not fixing problems, but just moving it, since they aren't trusted to the same standard (and a lot less since there are less stringent public guidelines for them):

Player appointed positions should be held to the same standards as everyone else, the individual should have been removed immediately from a position of trust, not just get a slap on the wrist - and a ban from the game too, to be equal to non-moderators doing similar stuff

What are you referring to?  This a shadowboard thing?
"This is a game that has elves and magick, stop trying to make it realistic, you can't have them both in the same place."

tiny rainbow

  • Posts: 492
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2023, 09:04:50 AM »
(chat thing, a player mod that was trying to harass someone they didn't like)
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Pariah

  • Posts: 871
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2023, 09:18:35 AM »
(chat thing, a player mod that was trying to harass someone they didn't like)
I didn't see that, but that sounds like something they should do a player complaint or report to Ath, I am pretty sure he's the liaison to staff for Mods.  I doubt he'll abide that type of fuckery.
"This is a game that has elves and magick, stop trying to make it realistic, you can't have them both in the same place."

mansa

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 10886
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2023, 11:09:50 AM »
This was already reported and dealt with.
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tiny rainbow

  • Posts: 492
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2023, 11:19:18 AM »
Why are they still a mod then?
Why are they not banned?
What does dealt with mean in these circumstances, it seems like it just gets used as a way to suggest something is done when not much really is?
Why are the rules for staff stricter than punishments for people in player appointed positions, when they're already less trusted?
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Ath

  • Board Administrator
  • Posts: 1205
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2023, 11:22:58 AM »
Why are they still a mod then?
Why are they not banned?
What does dealt with mean in these circumstances, it seems like it just gets used as a way to suggest something is done when not much really is?
Why are the rules for staff stricter than punishments for people in player appointed positions, when they're already less trusted?

Because people make mistakes, just like everyone else.  This was a singular instance that was handled.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 2482
Re: On selecting a player council..
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2023, 06:10:22 PM »
I'd like to know why I was moderated when other people can be far worse constantly?