Community commitment to accepting complaints.

[kahuna]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

This to me is a widely held belief in the Arm community, kind of like an urban myth. The reality is far harsher in that most players do not return, evidenced by statistical analyses of the player base. Your evidence for this statement being true would be what exactly?

[Veselka]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

I agree. They can only do what they can do. People need to stop demanding period and just be the example they want to see in game. I see a bunch of gimme gimme  gimme and not a lot of people saying : how can I be the change, or facilitate the change I want to see?

Not many players left willing to put in the work when Staff is populated with people breaking their own rules. Sometimes “being the change” is not participating in a rigged system.


Moderator Halcyon - Please dont vaguebook accusations.  If you have a problem with staff, please document a clear complaint in the request tool, and refer to that.

[DesertT]

So you want a sexist approach.  By your own words, you want what women say to carry more weight.

Nobody has said this. Nobody implied this. Nobody has argued for this. The sentence I quote is one that not at all, not even a little, follows from any of the above posts. You are arguing in such bad faith that there isn't a shred of goodwill in what you are writing, and you should quite frankly be ashamed. If you had any shred of decency you'd blank out your posts and apologise - because, frankly, this is so far from treating a discussion well that you very well fucking know you're being disingenuous here.

2nd half of the 2nd paragraph of the very first post.

“In particular, when women are telling these stories, doubting them can sometimes be rooted, consciously or unconsciously, in the sexist belief that women are more naturally deceptive than men.”

[DesertT]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

This to me is a widely held belief in the Arm community, kind of like an urban myth. The reality is far harsher in that most players do not return, evidenced by statistical analyses of the player base. Your evidence for this statement being true would be what exactly?

Easy answer is the player that most recently filed such a public complaint.

How many times have they left and returned?

[DesertT]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

I agree. They can only do what they can do. People need to stop demanding period and just be the example they want to see in game. I see a bunch of gimme gimme  gimme and not a lot of people saying : how can I be the change, or facilitate the change I want to see?

Not many players left willing to put in the work when Staff is populated with people breaking their own rules. Sometimes “being the change” is not participating in a rigged system.

It would seem that a few ex-staffers just recently volunteered to come back.

On top of that, look at all the new moderators on the GDB and Discord.

People are definitely still willing to try to make a difference.

[Qzzrbl]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

This to me is a widely held belief in the Arm community, kind of like an urban myth. The reality is far harsher in that most players do not return, evidenced by statistical analyses of the player base. Your evidence for this statement being true would be what exactly?

Easy answer is the player that most recently filed such a public complaint.

How many times have they left and returned?

"The trend shows that most people do not return."

"Ya, but what about that one person as exhibit A?"

I'ma need you to settle down there mister.

[mansa]

Hey Friends,

There are some moderation reports sent up about some comments in this thread.
The summary of the reports are that people are being, well, snippy, at each other.  Don't.



As a community, we shouldn't be making public judgement calls on other player's actions.  That's not showing kindness or respect.

[DesertT]

"The trend shows that most people do not return."
"Ya, but what about that one person as exhibit A?"

I'ma need you to settle down there mister.

You got me!!  My point was if anyone had a reason to stay away, I believe we could agree that it was them.

Otherwise, there’s me!!  Which apparently nobody is happy about(see above). 
   


Moderator Halcyon - Please step back from this discussion thread for a little while.   I think both sides are using language the other doesnt appreciate.  If anyone has any questions, please PM me (Zot) on Discord.

[CirclelessBard]

So you want a sexist approach.  By your own words, you want what women say to carry more weight.

Nobody has said this. Nobody implied this. Nobody has argued for this. The sentence I quote is one that not at all, not even a little, follows from any of the above posts. You are arguing in such bad faith that there isn't a shred of goodwill in what you are writing, and you should quite frankly be ashamed. If you had any shred of decency you'd blank out your posts and apologise - because, frankly, this is so far from treating a discussion well that you very well fucking know you're being disingenuous here.

2nd half of the 2nd paragraph of the very first post.

“In particular, when women are telling these stories, doubting them can sometimes be rooted, consciously or unconsciously, in the sexist belief that women are more naturally deceptive than men.”

That does not mean at all that I want what women say to carry more weight. I urge you to re-read the sentence.

[Halcyon]

I would like to echo Mansa's sentiment and suggest a specific path towards resolution.

If you have an ongoing issue or complaint, please make sure it is recorded with staff.  I believe that each item will be addressed, albiet as staff committee members are able to do so in a thoughtful and consensus-based manner.   Until then, please don't take high-blood pressure out on each other.

If anyone needs help recording a complaint on the request tool, please reach out on Discord to a helper or moderator of your choice.

[Qzzrbl]

"The trend shows that most people do not return."
"Ya, but what about that one person as exhibit A?"

I'ma need you to settle down there mister.

You got me!!  My point was if anyone had a reason to stay away, I believe we could agree that it was them.

Otherwise, there’s me!!  Which apparently nobody is happy about(see above). 
   

lol, I mean sure.

Probably should have stayed away, given the history and reputation of this place.

But there is something so profoundly unfair about the only two choices being "stay away from thing that you love because of an unchecked shitter" and "try to engage with the thing that you love and eat the risk of having to deal with an unchecked shitter", y'know?

I think that's the crux of it.

Like I said earlier, Armageddon pretty much has the monopoly on this niche within a niche, so it's not exactly like anybody can just hop on over to a different RPI and catch the same or even similar, experience.

[Qzzrbl]

Until then, please don't take high-blood pressure out on each other.

Can we slapfight in PMs, or are those moderated too? 

[Rahnevyn]

Until then, please don't take high-blood pressure out on each other.

Can we slapfight in PMs, or are those moderated too? 

If both parties would prefer to take the conversation to PMs, I guess you can slap yourselves silly there - but the same rules would apply in private messages as on the normal GDB.

The rest is not a reply to Qzzrbl but more a general comment.

Change and healing is going to take both time and trust. I’d really encourage everyone to make a personal commitment to NOT slapfight, or bait people, or pass value judgements on other members of the community. Try to move forward and be constructive about the game you want to see without tearing down others’ sentiments. No one will want to join or return to a community that feeds on its own destructive tendencies.

There is a lot of shit in this community’s past. Perhaps it’s just best to leave it there and focus on the future, and for now at least, try to trust the new direction we’re heading in will lead to a better community than we have had before.

[Dresan]

I want to chime in before the thread gets locked. I want to preface this by saying that my goal of my post is not to sound unsympathetic to the abusive experiences some of our players have endured.

The root problem of this game is how much OOC relationship between players and staff effects the in-game playing experience and that is probably not likely to change because it is deeply rooted in both the game culture and game design.

If someone has a good relationship with a staff member, the game experience is like a table top game costumed to your personal preferences. When the relationship is non-existent, your experience is limited to the fairness of the code and whatever RP you find with other players. When the relationship is bad, then people experience an environment of disrespected, unfair punishments or having their characters stored/killed. It is this game design and culture that has now allowed us to add a new level to the staff-player relationship metric which is now toxic, so toxic that it has gone beyond the confines of  just staff complaints to possibly one that should be dealt with by local law enforcement and civil/criminal courtrooms. 

As someone with no relationship to staff or the players, the game I play and experience is not the same game many people complaining about abusive staff experience. When people complain about another player getting more stuff than them from staff, in terms of skills, spells, plots and attention, I can only scratch my head and get back to foraging. That said, I feel many people here would rather continue a culture that promotes game designs that require fostering good relationships with staff member (karma, sponsored roles, special application, ooc knowledge and plot involvement). This especially becomes true for people who have had made life long friends or even met their spouses through this community.

To answer the original question, unless the community is willing to become more anonymous to staff and give up the good that comes from staff relationship including the special treatment certain players get, then it is equally hard to track and stop the bad that comes out of it when relationships sour. Sadly, it seems the complaints only start when the graavy train has stopped. I honestly have no idea if staff or players truely want policies and design to change so that both favoritism and abuse disappears from the game.

[CirclelessBard]

Perhaps it’s just best to leave it there and focus on the future, and for now at least, try to trust the new direction we’re heading in will lead to a better community than we have had before.

My ultimate hope in posting what I did is that the mistakes of the past aren't repeated, and to provide a potential outline for how to move forward when complaints are out there in the wider MUD community. It is my hope that the game can learn from its past while focusing on the future. And part of moving into the future does mean acknowledging the pain inflicted in the past and committing to not allowing it to happen again. So I sincerely hope the community can all be on the same page in that regard.

[Halcyon]

Can I ask what you mean by "acknowledge"?

[CirclelessBard]

Can I ask what you mean by "acknowledge"?

Certainly. I believe that "the pain inflicted in the past" in the context of the behavior I described refers to two things:
- The pain inflicted by certain members of the Armageddon community when they chose to attempt to discredit and detract those complaining about harassment and cheating in the game in places outside of the Armageddon community, e.g. Reddit.
- The pain inflicted on the Armageddon community itself by its own members, when they chose to discredit and detract those complaining about harassment and cheating, rather than call for actions that could have possibly prevented the recent events.

So it follows that "acknowledging" that pain means accepting that the general manner in which some members of the Armageddon community has participated in the wider MUD community over the last several years has been incredibly harmful to individuals that used to play Armageddon and to the Armageddon community itself.

Hopefully that helps. I'd be happy to discuss further in-thread or a PM.

Edit: To rephrase a sentence for an attempt at better clarity.

[DesertT]

What specific words or phrasing do you want besides what’s already been said here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59073.0.html

[CirclelessBard]

What specific words or phrasing do you want besides what’s already been said here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59073.0.html

"The only portions that we, as a community and more specifically a staff body can do, is hold to account things that happen here and are covered under our rules and regulations."

"Things that happen here" implies a focus on community conduct within the community itself - the places that the rules and regulations apply to. The game itself, Discord, the GDB. Harassment generally occurs well outside of this scope, especially harassment of those who complained about harassment and cheating on Reddit.

I agree with Halaster that the responsibility of good judgment does not fall solely on the staff. The players should conduct themselves well and be good representatives of the community, and make staff's job easier. Harassing complainants outside of Armageddon's community is, frankly, not that. Those harassers should certainly not be welcome within a community whose reputation they are actively harming.

[SpyGuy]

I sincerely hope part of this process is an overall amnesty for all bans related to OOC communication.  They shared what they did for the betterment of the game/community.  It also doesn’t matter if their claims of abuse aren’t 100% accurate (I’m not speaking of the Shalooonsh mess there, I believe all of that except for the PC being a sorcerer).  Staff violated community rules by allowing a staffer to play a long lived noble as a main character.  Senior staff also looked the other way when Shalooonsh was facing complaints over abusing players in staff communication. 

I really, really hate this othering of players and the tone some take that ‘they’re out to destroy the game’.  No.  Staff made mistakes and shifting the blame isn’t going to fix a damn thing.  The people who are discussing Arm on the shadowboards clearly still have an interest in the game and I suspect most, even the really jaded ones, secretly hope it can actually improve.  Rejecting their complaints and othering them will only keep important voices out of the conversation.

Those who have been abused or quit over the direction of the game are not the bad actors here.  Complaints are not abuse. Whistleblowing was needed.  Reform requires being open to other points of view and being willing to reflect internally about what went wrong, how it happened, steps to prevent it again and steps to repair the damage.

[CirclelessBard]

I agree. In particular, the othering is incredibly uncomfortable. Not only because it is so consistent within the community but because it's the main attitude that previous producers have held. No meaningful long-term change is possible unless we stop ignoring those who speak about the game outside of the community out of spite.

[BadSkeelz]

I would slightly change the verbiage on this thread's title from "Community commitment to accepting complaints" to "Community commitment to hearing complaints."

Some complaints are just not good. But they still deserve to be heard.

Having seen a lot of threads over the years that ultimately devolve in to shoving contests between the "everything is fine" vs "everything is not fine" crowds, I wonder if the GDB and the game might be better off with a new subforum: Player Feedback. It would be set up like Ask the Staff, except no one can respond to it - not staff, not other players, not even the original poster. Disable editing as well.

If you have feedback or a complaint or just something to get off your chest, it gets posted there. Can still have it hold to whatever rules the game decides on regarding IC secrecy or whatever, but discussion threads generally just turn in to shoving matches.

Such a (sub)forum would also greatly benefit from a Voting system, preferably recording both Upvotes and Downvotes separately.

[Maziel]

I would slightly change the verbiage on this thread's title from "Community commitment to accepting complaints" to "Community commitment to hearing complaints."

Some complaints are just not good. But they still deserve to be heard.

Having seen a lot of threads over the years that ultimately devolve in to shoving contests between the "everything is fine" vs "everything is not fine" crowds, I wonder if the GDB and the game might be better off with a new subforum: Player Feedback. It would be set up like Ask the Staff, except no one can respond to it - not staff, not other players, not even the original poster. Disable editing as well.

If you have feedback or a complaint or just something to get off your chest, it gets posted there. Can still have it hold to whatever rules the game decides on regarding IC secrecy or whatever, but discussion threads generally just turn in to shoving matches.

Such a (sub)forum would also greatly benefit from a Voting system, preferably recording both Upvotes and Downvotes separately.

I think peer review is important. It can be hard to determine the validity of something if you can't see what others have to say and you have no context, and also that entails a bunch of spinoff threads when someone sees something that they know absolutely isn't true.

Honestly, a lot of the issues here could be resolved if you could collapse sections of dialogue - directly respond to specific posts. Upvoting/downvoting. Being able to delete your own posts.

If we had stuff like that, then if someone disrespectfully and intentionally derails a thread, it'd be less visible due to votes and not being in a pertinent thread of convo. You could just collapse it and not have to concern yourself about x community member/staff ruining your open discussion simply because they don't like you/it.

[wizturbo]

If you have feedback or a complaint or just something to get off your chest, it gets posted there. Can still have it hold to whatever rules the game decides on regarding IC secrecy or whatever, but discussion threads generally just turn in to shoving matches.

EVE Online's 5000+ member organization "The Imperium" just had it's own community melt down over decades long drama recently and they instituted a similar practice.  They have a locked forum that you can post in but can't read anyone else's posts, and they have a member-led group called the "Bee Keepers" that are tasked with handling anything that goes into that forum.  They investigate claims of harassment, abuse, online stalking, etc and are not part of the direct leadership of in-game related issues.

[BadSkeelz]

Not being able to read anyone else's posts just makes that sound like a damage control measure. Simply giving people a tube to shout angrily in to is not a way to effect real change. It has to reach an audience and cause discontent, otherwise nothing will change.