Community commitment to accepting complaints.

[CirclelessBard]

One thing that has been on my mind amidst all of the changes to the game is the fact that complaints of the nature that were brought forward recently, and other unrelated complaints, have actually been a black mark on Armageddon's reputation for several years. They have been brought up in the wider MUD community, with or without prior notification to staff via the request tool or other similarly private means. These complaints, often framed as reviews, often feature a multitude of Armageddon players in the replies to the reviews doubting what happened.

The initial reflex to believe that nothing bad was perpetrated by a friend or fellow staff member is understandable. As humans we have a hard time imagining that the person to our left or to our right can be an intensely abusive person and be particularly good at hiding it. However, taking that logic a step further by doubting all stories before even looking into them is harmful. In particular, when women are telling these stories, doubting them can sometimes be rooted, consciously or unconsciously, in the sexist belief that women are more naturally deceptive than men.

Ultimately, I would like to suggest that one of the criteria for remaining on the staff team is a lack of history in engaging with complaints of sexual harassment by casting doubt and suspicion on them. Those who do have a history of this nature as a staff member or player should be asked to step down from staff if they do not do so themselves. Additionally, players should be encouraged to not engage in this manner when community reports of this nature arise.

This does not only apply to public complaints of sexual harassment. There have been complaints about poor form in PK, unexplained deaths, and harassment of a former staff member by players. These have all received similar levels of doubt. We ought to resist the reflex to defend the game, and listen when people are speaking about their experiences.

The generally held belief in the MUD community is that Armageddon is an abusive game. It would reflect poorly on the community if players continue to express doubt when people come forward to tell their stories publicly, and even more so if such players are allowed to become staff members. In conclusion, the future health of the game relies upon its reputation. Please be understanding and please make sure that all staff are on the same page in this regard.

Thank you for your time.

[Supified]

I would argue that these complaints have been for years wildly accepted by the mudding community outside of Arm's own personal echo chambers.  It is actually something I find rather troubling and causing me a great deal of doubt about if the game truly can change.  There has been abuse that has been rather blatant for a very long time and even admitted so by the staff currently trying to fix things.  What allowed this to continue for so long without being addressed, despite being the absolute worst kept secret is I believe the root of what the problem is and if that can be fixed than things truly can be made better. 

[Tailong]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment? That's just as bad as doubting it. The 'reviews' of people doubting, could be people, like me, that want to see some sort of proof. People's word mean nothing in a digital age where proof is literally logged. Every word you type is forever, and if you cannot provide those simple pixels to back up claims, it ends up being 'your word vs. theirs'.

I would ask that people approach these things with a seriousness, but prudent mind. Weigh the evidence provided, neutrally and then log into the game people claim to love so much, and work toward a common fix, not shun the 'non-believers'.

[Supified]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment? That's just as bad as doubting it. The 'reviews' of people doubting, could be people, like me, that want to see some sort of proof. People's word mean nothing in a digital age where proof is literally logged. Every word you type is forever, and if you cannot provide those simple pixels to back up claims, it ends up being 'your word vs. theirs'.

I would ask that people approach these things with a seriousness, but prudent mind. Weigh the evidence provided, neutrally and then log into the game people claim to love so much, and work toward a common fix, not shun the 'non-believers'.

Armageddon boards have not had a problem of shunning non believers.  It has had a long long reputation of shutting down criticism and nonconformity to the party line viciously.  To the extent that most people who would have a differing view from the main one just giving up and leaving.  This is a years, even decades long reputation this game has built.  I've never ever ever known anyone to suggest that the Arm community was welcoming to dissent. 

[Windstorm]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment? That's just as bad as doubting it. The 'reviews' of people doubting, could be people, like me, that want to see some sort of proof. People's word mean nothing in a digital age where proof is literally logged. Every word you type is forever, and if you cannot provide those simple pixels to back up claims, it ends up being 'your word vs. theirs'.

I would ask that people approach these things with a seriousness, but prudent mind. Weigh the evidence provided, neutrally and then log into the game people claim to love so much, and work toward a common fix, not shun the 'non-believers'.

Things don't actually need to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to establish a history and a pattern of questionable behavior. This isn't a court of law and no one needs to be convicted in order to see the smoke that signals something on fire beneath. Nuance is involved.

If I got into a car accident every single week, but none were ever "proven" to be my fault, you'd still call me accident prone. My driving would still be in question. It should be. That holds true for questionable staff behavior also.

So please understand, there's some space between "believe every accusation you hear 100% without questioning it" and "deny everything, say it's not our problem, and collectively shrug until allegations have piled up for 10 years."

No one's asking anyone to ban anyone who gets accused of things. But they can't be ignored and shrugged off either the more that sort of thing piles up; it looks bad on the game and it's become a difficult part of bringing in new players or even retaining current ones. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be here discussing this right now.

This has cost us players. It's continuing to cost us players. It's led to playerbase decline long before it blew up recently. I've tried to get my friends from other RPIs to try Armageddon or give it another chance; in response, they've told me they heard they can't trust Arm's staff from people they trust.

And this was before the recent blowup. If you want Armageddon to survive you really can't just keep casually blowing off accountability. Just because it hasn't affected you doesn't mean it hasn't affected others, the game, or the game's broader reputation.

[Delirium]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment?

No, but patterns are patterns, especially when the evidence is there for anyone with a shred of common sense and empathy-- oh wait, a lot of the evidence is hidden in request chains and behind privacy veils, so you have to "break the rules" to show anyone, and then you're just accused of fabricating it.

I have no doubt there were bitter bad actors who made shit up, but trust me, those with legitimate complaints are just as upset when that happens, because it de-legitimizes the many real issues.

It's easy to say you don't care but perhaps you care less. [...] Of course I understand the venting process as well

The point isn't that I don't care. I do, against all logic. The point was that I was fed up trying to change things. Every time I pushed back against something, made a suggestion, they shot me as the messenger-- and then months later would actually change things and never even acknowledge that I'd had a point, much less apologize for their behavior toward me and the frustration and pain they caused.

Now it's happening again (I suggested guidelines for discord bannings/mutings and now they're going to make rules, despite biting my head off with "absolutely not" at the time I suggested it) and so by "blew through my last fuck" I mean that I am done making suggestions or putting myself out there or being an actual part of the game because at this point even a full, genuine apology with no qualifiers would just be that; it wouldn't fix what was done to me over and over and over again. "You were right" would be nice to hear but it just won't matter.

Sometimes bridges are just irrevocably burnt. You devalue people's genuine desire to fix seemingly obvious problems, not for my sake, since the damage was already done, but for everyone's sake in the future, and then you act surprised pikachu face at the frustrated and demoralized reaction? THEN you say you want to fix things, and hey, it's nice to see that it was acknowledged I brought up the issues with Blaze, but was there an apology for not believing me? Was there acknowledgement that it WAS a real pattern of behavior? No.

You're right on the money about it being venting, yes. I was 100% venting. I was also letting them know, in my own way, that their repeated behavior and lack of contrition and genuine apology for it had blown any possible reparation to bits, in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, they'd take it as a learning experience and a warning as to what happens when you pull that shit, so MAYBE, just maybe, they won't repeat it toward others.

You had dedicated people who loved the game and wanted to see it thrive, who saw problems forming/happening, who tried to point them out, and then finally just had enough.

So yes, the nuking my response regarding Shalooonsh was the final straw. Yes, I still care. The concepts are not mutually exclusive. I just don't care enough to ever come back and stand on the firing range again.

[Seeker]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment?

I didn't read that at all in the previous posts.

I think the point might be that the community of ArmageddomMUD (including some vocal players and some staff) have had a tendency to do exactly the opposite. 

There are clear examples over the last decade of community defenders robustly marginalizing and minimalizing  concerns about precisely the issues before us now.  Trapped forever in digital amber for anyone who cares to see.

The suggestion for the wider community to be more open to self-inspection and less willing to casually discard raised concerns seems reasonable.

I don't believe anyone wants to see this to end up as just another loop in a repetitive cycle.  Painful confrontation->revelation of previously denied bad actions->claims of correction->pleas to return trust->lull->raised concerns about bad actions->denial of bad actions->return to step #1.

Perhaps those who feel most passionate have already been through a complete loop or two before and just want us to get it right this time.  Maybe the individual bad actions should less be the focus rather than the necessary steps needed to finally stop the Wheel of Betrayal.

Being open to honestly examining complaints instead of the standard step "denial of bad actions" in the loop seems both rational and required.

[CirclelessBard]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment? That's just as bad as doubting it. The 'reviews' of people doubting, could be people, like me, that want to see some sort of proof. People's word mean nothing in a digital age where proof is literally logged. Every word you type is forever, and if you cannot provide those simple pixels to back up claims, it ends up being 'your word vs. theirs'.

I would ask that people approach these things with a seriousness, but prudent mind. Weigh the evidence provided, neutrally and then log into the game people claim to love so much, and work toward a common fix, not shun the 'non-believers'.

To repeat and summarize my post, I stated that claims of abuse should not be rejected out of hand. I will also add that absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence. The complaints I have referenced all have detractors asking for more and more evidence. When that evidence is not supplied, they use that as proof that nothing happened. This is not logical. And Armageddon is one of the very few games that have a community that does this within the MUD community.

[DesertT]

So you want a sexist approach.  By your own words, you want what women say to carry more weight.

When you assume that all accusations are doubted, that’s more likely the whole stance of “innocent until proven guilty”.  So yes, evidence is going to be asked for.

To repeat and summarize my post, I stated that claims of abuse should not be rejected out of hand. I will also add that absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence. The complaints I have referenced all have detractors asking for more and more evidence. When that evidence is not supplied, they use that as proof that nothing happened. This is not logical. And Armageddon is one of the very few games that have a community that does this within the MUD community.

So you’re essentially saying that accusations don’t require evidence.

Accusations must be accompanied with evidence.

I think you’re reading the worst into Staff responses.

Accuser:  I was sexually harassed!!

Staff:  Do you have any evidence?

Accuser:  You should just believe me!

[CirclelessBard]

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

[DesertT]

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

How do you know that they’re not accepting it and reviewing it?

This is why I suggested having someone deal with these complaints who is appropriately trained.

Someone who has been through sexual harassment/assault response program (SHARP) training.

Requiring this just overall from Staff isn’t (and hasn’t) going to render the results that you want.

[Windstorm]

So you’re essentially saying that accusations don’t require evidence.

Accusations must be accompanied with evidence.

I think you’re reading the worst into Staff responses.

Accuser:  I was sexually harassed!!

Staff:  Do you have any evidence?

Accuser:  You should just believe me!

I already headed this off and replied to it here:

Things don't actually need to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to establish a history and a pattern of questionable behavior. This isn't a court of law and no one needs to be convicted in order to see the smoke that signals something on fire beneath. Nuance is involved.

If I got into a car accident every single week, but none were ever "proven" to be my fault, you'd still call me accident prone. My driving would still be in question. It should be. That holds true for questionable staff behavior also.

So please understand, there's some space between "believe every accusation you hear 100% without questioning it" and "deny everything, say it's not our problem, and collectively shrug until allegations have piled up for 10 years."

No one's asking anyone to ban anyone who gets accused of things. But they can't be ignored and shrugged off either the more that sort of thing piles up; it looks bad on the game and it's become a difficult part of bringing in new players or even retaining current ones. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be here discussing this right now.

This has cost us players. It's continuing to cost us players. It's led to playerbase decline long before it blew up recently. I've tried to get my friends from other RPIs to try Armageddon or give it another chance; in response, they've told me they heard they can't trust Arm's staff from people they trust.

And this was before the recent blowup. If you want Armageddon to survive you really can't just keep casually blowing off accountability. Just because it hasn't affected you doesn't mean it hasn't affected others, the game, or the game's broader reputation.

[DesertT]

No, you went completely the other way by saying “beyond a shadow of a doubt”.

And be careful with your analogy about car accidents and Staff.  If the same player is claiming the same things repeatedly, then the pattern seems to line up the other way.

[Edited: please don't blame another player or try to discredit them in this manner - Nao]

[Tailong]

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

I probably wouldn't trust Reddit with something important as a report of harassment. That seems like a horrible mistake in the first place.

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

How do you know that they’re not accepting it and reviewing it?

This is why I suggested having someone deal with these complaints who is appropriately trained.

Someone who has been through sexual harassment/assault response program (SHARP) training.

Requiring this just overall from Staff isn’t (and hasn’t) going to render the results that you want.

Whoa, let head back to the real world. This is a game. If you experience something so traumatic you need a professional, you have two options. Go OOC to tell them to stop, and log out.  Don't log back in until it has been settled. Requiring specialized training for hobbyist volunteers is a bit much.

[DesertT]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

[CirclelessBard]

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

How do you know that they’re not accepting it and reviewing it?

This is why I suggested having someone deal with these complaints who is appropriately trained.

Someone who has been through sexual harassment/assault response program (SHARP) training.

Requiring this just overall from Staff isn’t (and hasn’t) going to render the results that you want.

I don't know that staff are already doing that, which is one of the reasons why I suggested it. In case they are not. Given that the prior staff attitude regarding the wider MUD community as of a few months ago is, to paraphrase, that complaints about Armageddon are lies and are not worth engaging with, I think it's a safe guess that Armageddon staff currently do not see the value in accepting complaints on Reddit.

Additionally, the possibility that among the new staff, there is someone who engaged in harassing complainants on Reddit means that some sort of process should be created on how to handle complaints appropriately.

[CirclelessBard]

[Edited: please don't blame another player or try to discredit them in this manner - Nao]

What are you implying with this statement?

[DesertT]

[Edited: please don't blame another player or try to discredit them in this manner - Nao]

What are you implying with this statement?

I’m saying if you’re (not you specifically) the common factor, you might want to evaluate yourself.

Like the person who’s been divorced ten times.  Maybe it’s not everybody else….


Moderator Halcyon - I have spoken directly to DesertT about this.  Please step back from this discussion thread for a little while.   I think both sides are using language the other doesnt appreciate.  If anyone has any questions, please PM me (Zot) on Discord.

[Delirium]

Good thing this isn't just about people's personal OOC lives, but about endemic issues of cheating, wagon-circling, and covering up bad behavior, even if you're trying to use personal shit to discredit valid complaints.

[Qzzrbl]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

People return because there is actually nowhere else that scratches that collaborative roleplay itch quite like Armageddon does, for better or for worse. There's no alternative. That's why people return despite poor treatment.

Like, I kinda see where you're coming from DeserT.

But at the end of the day, if somebody in this community keeps getting accused of being a shitter for years and years and years by numerous different people, numerous different long-time veteran players, even.

And the official response through official channels is either "Yea, we handled it" or "There's nothing to see here", only to have said same somebody continue to be a shitter and generate more complaints of being a shitter.

It seriously starts to stink of nobody doing anything about the shitter, doesn't it?

I don't think anybody is seriously advocating that complaints be received and acted upon with no evidence.

I think they're advocating for a system where people don't feel like they have to blow issues up on wholly different websites to get any traction towards resolution.

[pilgrim]

Good thing this isn't just about people's personal OOC lives, but about endemic issues of cheating, wagon-circling, and covering up bad behavior, even if you're trying to use personal shit to discredit valid complaints.

^

DeserT, nobody can say they like metagaming staff -- why are you trying to defend it? There's been a pattern observed not just by one person, but by many. Putting aside your cringey victim-blaming tactics and your attempts at making personal attacks, seriously why are you trying to defend something that is the equivalent of a DM putting an OP character of their own in the campaign and trying to make the whole game about them?

Have you wondered if maybe in your subconscious you completely understand the power dynamic at play and you're hard at work being a lowly-paid defensive-internet-argument worker?

[DesertT]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

[Tailong]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

I agree. They can only do what they can do. People need to stop demanding period and just be the example they want to see in game. I see a bunch of gimme gimme  gimme and not a lot of people saying : how can I be the change, or facilitate the change I want to see?

[Qzzrbl]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

I'm gonna be real with you. I've seen it mentioned elsewhere, and I agree with it, so I'll echo it here. There are Minecraft and Gmod servers out there run by sixteen year olds that I myself have also witnessed crack down on abuse like this in an incredibly efficient manner. Like I've seen founding staff members there abuse a dupe bug, or PM a player something a little too suggestive, and they're gone the next day with a big post on their forums explaining exactly what happened and why.

It's a hard sell comparing Arm to anything like that tbh, but the parallels in community management are definitely there.

I agree. They can only do what they can do. People need to stop demanding period and just be the example they want to see in game. I see a bunch of gimme gimme  gimme and not a lot of people saying : how can I be the change, or facilitate the change I want to see?

What in god's green earth are you talking about?

[Patuk]

So you want a sexist approach.  By your own words, you want what women say to carry more weight.

Nobody has said this. Nobody implied this. Nobody has argued for this. The sentence I quote is one that not at all, not even a little, follows from any of the above posts. You are arguing in such bad faith that there isn't a shred of goodwill in what you are writing, and you should quite frankly be ashamed. If you had any shred of decency you'd blank out your posts and apologise - because, frankly, this is so far from treating a discussion well that you very well fucking know you're being disingenuous here.