Community commitment to accepting complaints.

[CirclelessBard]

One thing that has been on my mind amidst all of the changes to the game is the fact that complaints of the nature that were brought forward recently, and other unrelated complaints, have actually been a black mark on Armageddon's reputation for several years. They have been brought up in the wider MUD community, with or without prior notification to staff via the request tool or other similarly private means. These complaints, often framed as reviews, often feature a multitude of Armageddon players in the replies to the reviews doubting what happened.

The initial reflex to believe that nothing bad was perpetrated by a friend or fellow staff member is understandable. As humans we have a hard time imagining that the person to our left or to our right can be an intensely abusive person and be particularly good at hiding it. However, taking that logic a step further by doubting all stories before even looking into them is harmful. In particular, when women are telling these stories, doubting them can sometimes be rooted, consciously or unconsciously, in the sexist belief that women are more naturally deceptive than men.

Ultimately, I would like to suggest that one of the criteria for remaining on the staff team is a lack of history in engaging with complaints of sexual harassment by casting doubt and suspicion on them. Those who do have a history of this nature as a staff member or player should be asked to step down from staff if they do not do so themselves. Additionally, players should be encouraged to not engage in this manner when community reports of this nature arise.

This does not only apply to public complaints of sexual harassment. There have been complaints about poor form in PK, unexplained deaths, and harassment of a former staff member by players. These have all received similar levels of doubt. We ought to resist the reflex to defend the game, and listen when people are speaking about their experiences.

The generally held belief in the MUD community is that Armageddon is an abusive game. It would reflect poorly on the community if players continue to express doubt when people come forward to tell their stories publicly, and even more so if such players are allowed to become staff members. In conclusion, the future health of the game relies upon its reputation. Please be understanding and please make sure that all staff are on the same page in this regard.

Thank you for your time.

[Supified]

I would argue that these complaints have been for years wildly accepted by the mudding community outside of Arm's own personal echo chambers.  It is actually something I find rather troubling and causing me a great deal of doubt about if the game truly can change.  There has been abuse that has been rather blatant for a very long time and even admitted so by the staff currently trying to fix things.  What allowed this to continue for so long without being addressed, despite being the absolute worst kept secret is I believe the root of what the problem is and if that can be fixed than things truly can be made better. 

[Tailong]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment? That's just as bad as doubting it. The 'reviews' of people doubting, could be people, like me, that want to see some sort of proof. People's word mean nothing in a digital age where proof is literally logged. Every word you type is forever, and if you cannot provide those simple pixels to back up claims, it ends up being 'your word vs. theirs'.

I would ask that people approach these things with a seriousness, but prudent mind. Weigh the evidence provided, neutrally and then log into the game people claim to love so much, and work toward a common fix, not shun the 'non-believers'.

[Supified]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment? That's just as bad as doubting it. The 'reviews' of people doubting, could be people, like me, that want to see some sort of proof. People's word mean nothing in a digital age where proof is literally logged. Every word you type is forever, and if you cannot provide those simple pixels to back up claims, it ends up being 'your word vs. theirs'.

I would ask that people approach these things with a seriousness, but prudent mind. Weigh the evidence provided, neutrally and then log into the game people claim to love so much, and work toward a common fix, not shun the 'non-believers'.

Armageddon boards have not had a problem of shunning non believers.  It has had a long long reputation of shutting down criticism and nonconformity to the party line viciously.  To the extent that most people who would have a differing view from the main one just giving up and leaving.  This is a years, even decades long reputation this game has built.  I've never ever ever known anyone to suggest that the Arm community was welcoming to dissent. 

[Windstorm]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment? That's just as bad as doubting it. The 'reviews' of people doubting, could be people, like me, that want to see some sort of proof. People's word mean nothing in a digital age where proof is literally logged. Every word you type is forever, and if you cannot provide those simple pixels to back up claims, it ends up being 'your word vs. theirs'.

I would ask that people approach these things with a seriousness, but prudent mind. Weigh the evidence provided, neutrally and then log into the game people claim to love so much, and work toward a common fix, not shun the 'non-believers'.

Things don't actually need to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to establish a history and a pattern of questionable behavior. This isn't a court of law and no one needs to be convicted in order to see the smoke that signals something on fire beneath. Nuance is involved.

If I got into a car accident every single week, but none were ever "proven" to be my fault, you'd still call me accident prone. My driving would still be in question. It should be. That holds true for questionable staff behavior also.

So please understand, there's some space between "believe every accusation you hear 100% without questioning it" and "deny everything, say it's not our problem, and collectively shrug until allegations have piled up for 10 years."

No one's asking anyone to ban anyone who gets accused of things. But they can't be ignored and shrugged off either the more that sort of thing piles up; it looks bad on the game and it's become a difficult part of bringing in new players or even retaining current ones. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be here discussing this right now.

This has cost us players. It's continuing to cost us players. It's led to playerbase decline long before it blew up recently. I've tried to get my friends from other RPIs to try Armageddon or give it another chance; in response, they've told me they heard they can't trust Arm's staff from people they trust.

And this was before the recent blowup. If you want Armageddon to survive you really can't just keep casually blowing off accountability. Just because it hasn't affected you doesn't mean it hasn't affected others, the game, or the game's broader reputation.

[Delirium]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment?

No, but patterns are patterns, especially when the evidence is there for anyone with a shred of common sense and empathy-- oh wait, a lot of the evidence is hidden in request chains and behind privacy veils, so you have to "break the rules" to show anyone, and then you're just accused of fabricating it.

I have no doubt there were bitter bad actors who made shit up, but trust me, those with legitimate complaints are just as upset when that happens, because it de-legitimizes the many real issues.

It's easy to say you don't care but perhaps you care less. [...] Of course I understand the venting process as well

The point isn't that I don't care. I do, against all logic. The point was that I was fed up trying to change things. Every time I pushed back against something, made a suggestion, they shot me as the messenger-- and then months later would actually change things and never even acknowledge that I'd had a point, much less apologize for their behavior toward me and the frustration and pain they caused.

Now it's happening again (I suggested guidelines for discord bannings/mutings and now they're going to make rules, despite biting my head off with "absolutely not" at the time I suggested it) and so by "blew through my last fuck" I mean that I am done making suggestions or putting myself out there or being an actual part of the game because at this point even a full, genuine apology with no qualifiers would just be that; it wouldn't fix what was done to me over and over and over again. "You were right" would be nice to hear but it just won't matter.

Sometimes bridges are just irrevocably burnt. You devalue people's genuine desire to fix seemingly obvious problems, not for my sake, since the damage was already done, but for everyone's sake in the future, and then you act surprised pikachu face at the frustrated and demoralized reaction? THEN you say you want to fix things, and hey, it's nice to see that it was acknowledged I brought up the issues with Blaze, but was there an apology for not believing me? Was there acknowledgement that it WAS a real pattern of behavior? No.

You're right on the money about it being venting, yes. I was 100% venting. I was also letting them know, in my own way, that their repeated behavior and lack of contrition and genuine apology for it had blown any possible reparation to bits, in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, they'd take it as a learning experience and a warning as to what happens when you pull that shit, so MAYBE, just maybe, they won't repeat it toward others.

You had dedicated people who loved the game and wanted to see it thrive, who saw problems forming/happening, who tried to point them out, and then finally just had enough.

So yes, the nuking my response regarding Shalooonsh was the final straw. Yes, I still care. The concepts are not mutually exclusive. I just don't care enough to ever come back and stand on the firing range again.

[Seeker]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment?

I didn't read that at all in the previous posts.

I think the point might be that the community of ArmageddomMUD (including some vocal players and some staff) have had a tendency to do exactly the opposite. 

There are clear examples over the last decade of community defenders robustly marginalizing and minimalizing  concerns about precisely the issues before us now.  Trapped forever in digital amber for anyone who cares to see.

The suggestion for the wider community to be more open to self-inspection and less willing to casually discard raised concerns seems reasonable.

I don't believe anyone wants to see this to end up as just another loop in a repetitive cycle.  Painful confrontation->revelation of previously denied bad actions->claims of correction->pleas to return trust->lull->raised concerns about bad actions->denial of bad actions->return to step #1.

Perhaps those who feel most passionate have already been through a complete loop or two before and just want us to get it right this time.  Maybe the individual bad actions should less be the focus rather than the necessary steps needed to finally stop the Wheel of Betrayal.

Being open to honestly examining complaints instead of the standard step "denial of bad actions" in the loop seems both rational and required.

[CirclelessBard]

So, you are saying that everyone should just blindly believe every single accusation of abuse, or harassment? That's just as bad as doubting it. The 'reviews' of people doubting, could be people, like me, that want to see some sort of proof. People's word mean nothing in a digital age where proof is literally logged. Every word you type is forever, and if you cannot provide those simple pixels to back up claims, it ends up being 'your word vs. theirs'.

I would ask that people approach these things with a seriousness, but prudent mind. Weigh the evidence provided, neutrally and then log into the game people claim to love so much, and work toward a common fix, not shun the 'non-believers'.

To repeat and summarize my post, I stated that claims of abuse should not be rejected out of hand. I will also add that absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence. The complaints I have referenced all have detractors asking for more and more evidence. When that evidence is not supplied, they use that as proof that nothing happened. This is not logical. And Armageddon is one of the very few games that have a community that does this within the MUD community.

[DesertT]

So you want a sexist approach.  By your own words, you want what women say to carry more weight.

When you assume that all accusations are doubted, that’s more likely the whole stance of “innocent until proven guilty”.  So yes, evidence is going to be asked for.

To repeat and summarize my post, I stated that claims of abuse should not be rejected out of hand. I will also add that absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence. The complaints I have referenced all have detractors asking for more and more evidence. When that evidence is not supplied, they use that as proof that nothing happened. This is not logical. And Armageddon is one of the very few games that have a community that does this within the MUD community.

So you’re essentially saying that accusations don’t require evidence.

Accusations must be accompanied with evidence.

I think you’re reading the worst into Staff responses.

Accuser:  I was sexually harassed!!

Staff:  Do you have any evidence?

Accuser:  You should just believe me!

[CirclelessBard]

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

[DesertT]

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

How do you know that they’re not accepting it and reviewing it?

This is why I suggested having someone deal with these complaints who is appropriately trained.

Someone who has been through sexual harassment/assault response program (SHARP) training.

Requiring this just overall from Staff isn’t (and hasn’t) going to render the results that you want.

[Windstorm]

So you’re essentially saying that accusations don’t require evidence.

Accusations must be accompanied with evidence.

I think you’re reading the worst into Staff responses.

Accuser:  I was sexually harassed!!

Staff:  Do you have any evidence?

Accuser:  You should just believe me!

I already headed this off and replied to it here:

Things don't actually need to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to establish a history and a pattern of questionable behavior. This isn't a court of law and no one needs to be convicted in order to see the smoke that signals something on fire beneath. Nuance is involved.

If I got into a car accident every single week, but none were ever "proven" to be my fault, you'd still call me accident prone. My driving would still be in question. It should be. That holds true for questionable staff behavior also.

So please understand, there's some space between "believe every accusation you hear 100% without questioning it" and "deny everything, say it's not our problem, and collectively shrug until allegations have piled up for 10 years."

No one's asking anyone to ban anyone who gets accused of things. But they can't be ignored and shrugged off either the more that sort of thing piles up; it looks bad on the game and it's become a difficult part of bringing in new players or even retaining current ones. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be here discussing this right now.

This has cost us players. It's continuing to cost us players. It's led to playerbase decline long before it blew up recently. I've tried to get my friends from other RPIs to try Armageddon or give it another chance; in response, they've told me they heard they can't trust Arm's staff from people they trust.

And this was before the recent blowup. If you want Armageddon to survive you really can't just keep casually blowing off accountability. Just because it hasn't affected you doesn't mean it hasn't affected others, the game, or the game's broader reputation.

[DesertT]

No, you went completely the other way by saying “beyond a shadow of a doubt”.

And be careful with your analogy about car accidents and Staff.  If the same player is claiming the same things repeatedly, then the pattern seems to line up the other way.

[Edited: please don't blame another player or try to discredit them in this manner - Nao]

[Tailong]

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

I probably wouldn't trust Reddit with something important as a report of harassment. That seems like a horrible mistake in the first place.

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

How do you know that they’re not accepting it and reviewing it?

This is why I suggested having someone deal with these complaints who is appropriately trained.

Someone who has been through sexual harassment/assault response program (SHARP) training.

Requiring this just overall from Staff isn’t (and hasn’t) going to render the results that you want.

Whoa, let head back to the real world. This is a game. If you experience something so traumatic you need a professional, you have two options. Go OOC to tell them to stop, and log out.  Don't log back in until it has been settled. Requiring specialized training for hobbyist volunteers is a bit much.

[DesertT]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

[CirclelessBard]

Again, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that complaints should be accepted. Ideally, when a complaint is accepted, staff review the complaint, look for evidence, and privately reach out to the complainant to ask for evidence.

They do not do nothing while random players and current staff members leave a scathing comment on Reddit asking for evidence, then receive evidence, and ask for more evidence, until tiring the accuser out and declaring that there is not enough evidence to prove the accuser is right.

The difference is plain.

How do you know that they’re not accepting it and reviewing it?

This is why I suggested having someone deal with these complaints who is appropriately trained.

Someone who has been through sexual harassment/assault response program (SHARP) training.

Requiring this just overall from Staff isn’t (and hasn’t) going to render the results that you want.

I don't know that staff are already doing that, which is one of the reasons why I suggested it. In case they are not. Given that the prior staff attitude regarding the wider MUD community as of a few months ago is, to paraphrase, that complaints about Armageddon are lies and are not worth engaging with, I think it's a safe guess that Armageddon staff currently do not see the value in accepting complaints on Reddit.

Additionally, the possibility that among the new staff, there is someone who engaged in harassing complainants on Reddit means that some sort of process should be created on how to handle complaints appropriately.

[CirclelessBard]

[Edited: please don't blame another player or try to discredit them in this manner - Nao]

What are you implying with this statement?

[DesertT]

[Edited: please don't blame another player or try to discredit them in this manner - Nao]

What are you implying with this statement?

I’m saying if you’re (not you specifically) the common factor, you might want to evaluate yourself.

Like the person who’s been divorced ten times.  Maybe it’s not everybody else….


Moderator Halcyon - I have spoken directly to DesertT about this.  Please step back from this discussion thread for a little while.   I think both sides are using language the other doesnt appreciate.  If anyone has any questions, please PM me (Zot) on Discord.

[Delirium]

Good thing this isn't just about people's personal OOC lives, but about endemic issues of cheating, wagon-circling, and covering up bad behavior, even if you're trying to use personal shit to discredit valid complaints.

[Qzzrbl]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

People return because there is actually nowhere else that scratches that collaborative roleplay itch quite like Armageddon does, for better or for worse. There's no alternative. That's why people return despite poor treatment.

Like, I kinda see where you're coming from DeserT.

But at the end of the day, if somebody in this community keeps getting accused of being a shitter for years and years and years by numerous different people, numerous different long-time veteran players, even.

And the official response through official channels is either "Yea, we handled it" or "There's nothing to see here", only to have said same somebody continue to be a shitter and generate more complaints of being a shitter.

It seriously starts to stink of nobody doing anything about the shitter, doesn't it?

I don't think anybody is seriously advocating that complaints be received and acted upon with no evidence.

I think they're advocating for a system where people don't feel like they have to blow issues up on wholly different websites to get any traction towards resolution.

[pilgrim]

Good thing this isn't just about people's personal OOC lives, but about endemic issues of cheating, wagon-circling, and covering up bad behavior, even if you're trying to use personal shit to discredit valid complaints.

^

DeserT, nobody can say they like metagaming staff -- why are you trying to defend it? There's been a pattern observed not just by one person, but by many. Putting aside your cringey victim-blaming tactics and your attempts at making personal attacks, seriously why are you trying to defend something that is the equivalent of a DM putting an OP character of their own in the campaign and trying to make the whole game about them?

Have you wondered if maybe in your subconscious you completely understand the power dynamic at play and you're hard at work being a lowly-paid defensive-internet-argument worker?

[DesertT]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

[Tailong]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

I agree. They can only do what they can do. People need to stop demanding period and just be the example they want to see in game. I see a bunch of gimme gimme  gimme and not a lot of people saying : how can I be the change, or facilitate the change I want to see?

[Qzzrbl]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

I'm gonna be real with you. I've seen it mentioned elsewhere, and I agree with it, so I'll echo it here. There are Minecraft and Gmod servers out there run by sixteen year olds that I myself have also witnessed crack down on abuse like this in an incredibly efficient manner. Like I've seen founding staff members there abuse a dupe bug, or PM a player something a little too suggestive, and they're gone the next day with a big post on their forums explaining exactly what happened and why.

It's a hard sell comparing Arm to anything like that tbh, but the parallels in community management are definitely there.

I agree. They can only do what they can do. People need to stop demanding period and just be the example they want to see in game. I see a bunch of gimme gimme  gimme and not a lot of people saying : how can I be the change, or facilitate the change I want to see?

What in god's green earth are you talking about?

[Patuk]

So you want a sexist approach.  By your own words, you want what women say to carry more weight.

Nobody has said this. Nobody implied this. Nobody has argued for this. The sentence I quote is one that not at all, not even a little, follows from any of the above posts. You are arguing in such bad faith that there isn't a shred of goodwill in what you are writing, and you should quite frankly be ashamed. If you had any shred of decency you'd blank out your posts and apologise - because, frankly, this is so far from treating a discussion well that you very well fucking know you're being disingenuous here.

[kahuna]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

This to me is a widely held belief in the Arm community, kind of like an urban myth. The reality is far harsher in that most players do not return, evidenced by statistical analyses of the player base. Your evidence for this statement being true would be what exactly?

[Veselka]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

I agree. They can only do what they can do. People need to stop demanding period and just be the example they want to see in game. I see a bunch of gimme gimme  gimme and not a lot of people saying : how can I be the change, or facilitate the change I want to see?

Not many players left willing to put in the work when Staff is populated with people breaking their own rules. Sometimes “being the change” is not participating in a rigged system.


Moderator Halcyon - Please dont vaguebook accusations.  If you have a problem with staff, please document a clear complaint in the request tool, and refer to that.

[DesertT]

So you want a sexist approach.  By your own words, you want what women say to carry more weight.

Nobody has said this. Nobody implied this. Nobody has argued for this. The sentence I quote is one that not at all, not even a little, follows from any of the above posts. You are arguing in such bad faith that there isn't a shred of goodwill in what you are writing, and you should quite frankly be ashamed. If you had any shred of decency you'd blank out your posts and apologise - because, frankly, this is so far from treating a discussion well that you very well fucking know you're being disingenuous here.

2nd half of the 2nd paragraph of the very first post.

“In particular, when women are telling these stories, doubting them can sometimes be rooted, consciously or unconsciously, in the sexist belief that women are more naturally deceptive than men.”

[DesertT]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

This to me is a widely held belief in the Arm community, kind of like an urban myth. The reality is far harsher in that most players do not return, evidenced by statistical analyses of the player base. Your evidence for this statement being true would be what exactly?

Easy answer is the player that most recently filed such a public complaint.

How many times have they left and returned?

[DesertT]

Which is why I made the suggestion I did in the other thread of identifying one person whose been properly trained to handle these issues.

We need to quit expecting Staff to cover so many roles and to excel at all of them per our own individual standards.

This is why I applaud the GDB and Discord shift to other people for moderating purposes.

Let’s ask for and validate someone who has been trained to handle sexual harassment issues for us!!

Obviously this is a big deal.

Obviously Staff hasn’t been able to handle it Effectively in the past.

Let’s quit demanding that they try harder on this issue and instead, source it to one trusted person with appropriate training.

I agree. They can only do what they can do. People need to stop demanding period and just be the example they want to see in game. I see a bunch of gimme gimme  gimme and not a lot of people saying : how can I be the change, or facilitate the change I want to see?

Not many players left willing to put in the work when Staff is populated with people breaking their own rules. Sometimes “being the change” is not participating in a rigged system.

It would seem that a few ex-staffers just recently volunteered to come back.

On top of that, look at all the new moderators on the GDB and Discord.

People are definitely still willing to try to make a difference.

[Qzzrbl]

I feel you and want to agree, however, I’m trying to recognize the addictive properties of this game that makes them return again and again after a decade or more of such poor treatment and experiences.

This to me is a widely held belief in the Arm community, kind of like an urban myth. The reality is far harsher in that most players do not return, evidenced by statistical analyses of the player base. Your evidence for this statement being true would be what exactly?

Easy answer is the player that most recently filed such a public complaint.

How many times have they left and returned?

"The trend shows that most people do not return."

"Ya, but what about that one person as exhibit A?"

I'ma need you to settle down there mister.

[mansa]

Hey Friends,

There are some moderation reports sent up about some comments in this thread.
The summary of the reports are that people are being, well, snippy, at each other.  Don't.



As a community, we shouldn't be making public judgement calls on other player's actions.  That's not showing kindness or respect.

[DesertT]

"The trend shows that most people do not return."
"Ya, but what about that one person as exhibit A?"

I'ma need you to settle down there mister.

You got me!!  My point was if anyone had a reason to stay away, I believe we could agree that it was them.

Otherwise, there’s me!!  Which apparently nobody is happy about(see above). 
   


Moderator Halcyon - Please step back from this discussion thread for a little while.   I think both sides are using language the other doesnt appreciate.  If anyone has any questions, please PM me (Zot) on Discord.

[CirclelessBard]

So you want a sexist approach.  By your own words, you want what women say to carry more weight.

Nobody has said this. Nobody implied this. Nobody has argued for this. The sentence I quote is one that not at all, not even a little, follows from any of the above posts. You are arguing in such bad faith that there isn't a shred of goodwill in what you are writing, and you should quite frankly be ashamed. If you had any shred of decency you'd blank out your posts and apologise - because, frankly, this is so far from treating a discussion well that you very well fucking know you're being disingenuous here.

2nd half of the 2nd paragraph of the very first post.

“In particular, when women are telling these stories, doubting them can sometimes be rooted, consciously or unconsciously, in the sexist belief that women are more naturally deceptive than men.”

That does not mean at all that I want what women say to carry more weight. I urge you to re-read the sentence.

[Halcyon]

I would like to echo Mansa's sentiment and suggest a specific path towards resolution.

If you have an ongoing issue or complaint, please make sure it is recorded with staff.  I believe that each item will be addressed, albiet as staff committee members are able to do so in a thoughtful and consensus-based manner.   Until then, please don't take high-blood pressure out on each other.

If anyone needs help recording a complaint on the request tool, please reach out on Discord to a helper or moderator of your choice.

[Qzzrbl]

"The trend shows that most people do not return."
"Ya, but what about that one person as exhibit A?"

I'ma need you to settle down there mister.

You got me!!  My point was if anyone had a reason to stay away, I believe we could agree that it was them.

Otherwise, there’s me!!  Which apparently nobody is happy about(see above). 
   

lol, I mean sure.

Probably should have stayed away, given the history and reputation of this place.

But there is something so profoundly unfair about the only two choices being "stay away from thing that you love because of an unchecked shitter" and "try to engage with the thing that you love and eat the risk of having to deal with an unchecked shitter", y'know?

I think that's the crux of it.

Like I said earlier, Armageddon pretty much has the monopoly on this niche within a niche, so it's not exactly like anybody can just hop on over to a different RPI and catch the same or even similar, experience.

[Qzzrbl]

Until then, please don't take high-blood pressure out on each other.

Can we slapfight in PMs, or are those moderated too? 

[Rahnevyn]

Until then, please don't take high-blood pressure out on each other.

Can we slapfight in PMs, or are those moderated too? 

If both parties would prefer to take the conversation to PMs, I guess you can slap yourselves silly there - but the same rules would apply in private messages as on the normal GDB.

The rest is not a reply to Qzzrbl but more a general comment.

Change and healing is going to take both time and trust. I’d really encourage everyone to make a personal commitment to NOT slapfight, or bait people, or pass value judgements on other members of the community. Try to move forward and be constructive about the game you want to see without tearing down others’ sentiments. No one will want to join or return to a community that feeds on its own destructive tendencies.

There is a lot of shit in this community’s past. Perhaps it’s just best to leave it there and focus on the future, and for now at least, try to trust the new direction we’re heading in will lead to a better community than we have had before.

[Dresan]

I want to chime in before the thread gets locked. I want to preface this by saying that my goal of my post is not to sound unsympathetic to the abusive experiences some of our players have endured.

The root problem of this game is how much OOC relationship between players and staff effects the in-game playing experience and that is probably not likely to change because it is deeply rooted in both the game culture and game design.

If someone has a good relationship with a staff member, the game experience is like a table top game costumed to your personal preferences. When the relationship is non-existent, your experience is limited to the fairness of the code and whatever RP you find with other players. When the relationship is bad, then people experience an environment of disrespected, unfair punishments or having their characters stored/killed. It is this game design and culture that has now allowed us to add a new level to the staff-player relationship metric which is now toxic, so toxic that it has gone beyond the confines of  just staff complaints to possibly one that should be dealt with by local law enforcement and civil/criminal courtrooms. 

As someone with no relationship to staff or the players, the game I play and experience is not the same game many people complaining about abusive staff experience. When people complain about another player getting more stuff than them from staff, in terms of skills, spells, plots and attention, I can only scratch my head and get back to foraging. That said, I feel many people here would rather continue a culture that promotes game designs that require fostering good relationships with staff member (karma, sponsored roles, special application, ooc knowledge and plot involvement). This especially becomes true for people who have had made life long friends or even met their spouses through this community.

To answer the original question, unless the community is willing to become more anonymous to staff and give up the good that comes from staff relationship including the special treatment certain players get, then it is equally hard to track and stop the bad that comes out of it when relationships sour. Sadly, it seems the complaints only start when the graavy train has stopped. I honestly have no idea if staff or players truely want policies and design to change so that both favoritism and abuse disappears from the game.

[CirclelessBard]

Perhaps it’s just best to leave it there and focus on the future, and for now at least, try to trust the new direction we’re heading in will lead to a better community than we have had before.

My ultimate hope in posting what I did is that the mistakes of the past aren't repeated, and to provide a potential outline for how to move forward when complaints are out there in the wider MUD community. It is my hope that the game can learn from its past while focusing on the future. And part of moving into the future does mean acknowledging the pain inflicted in the past and committing to not allowing it to happen again. So I sincerely hope the community can all be on the same page in that regard.

[Halcyon]

Can I ask what you mean by "acknowledge"?

[CirclelessBard]

Can I ask what you mean by "acknowledge"?

Certainly. I believe that "the pain inflicted in the past" in the context of the behavior I described refers to two things:
- The pain inflicted by certain members of the Armageddon community when they chose to attempt to discredit and detract those complaining about harassment and cheating in the game in places outside of the Armageddon community, e.g. Reddit.
- The pain inflicted on the Armageddon community itself by its own members, when they chose to discredit and detract those complaining about harassment and cheating, rather than call for actions that could have possibly prevented the recent events.

So it follows that "acknowledging" that pain means accepting that the general manner in which some members of the Armageddon community has participated in the wider MUD community over the last several years has been incredibly harmful to individuals that used to play Armageddon and to the Armageddon community itself.

Hopefully that helps. I'd be happy to discuss further in-thread or a PM.

Edit: To rephrase a sentence for an attempt at better clarity.

[DesertT]

What specific words or phrasing do you want besides what’s already been said here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59073.0.html

[CirclelessBard]

What specific words or phrasing do you want besides what’s already been said here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59073.0.html

"The only portions that we, as a community and more specifically a staff body can do, is hold to account things that happen here and are covered under our rules and regulations."

"Things that happen here" implies a focus on community conduct within the community itself - the places that the rules and regulations apply to. The game itself, Discord, the GDB. Harassment generally occurs well outside of this scope, especially harassment of those who complained about harassment and cheating on Reddit.

I agree with Halaster that the responsibility of good judgment does not fall solely on the staff. The players should conduct themselves well and be good representatives of the community, and make staff's job easier. Harassing complainants outside of Armageddon's community is, frankly, not that. Those harassers should certainly not be welcome within a community whose reputation they are actively harming.

[SpyGuy]

I sincerely hope part of this process is an overall amnesty for all bans related to OOC communication.  They shared what they did for the betterment of the game/community.  It also doesn’t matter if their claims of abuse aren’t 100% accurate (I’m not speaking of the Shalooonsh mess there, I believe all of that except for the PC being a sorcerer).  Staff violated community rules by allowing a staffer to play a long lived noble as a main character.  Senior staff also looked the other way when Shalooonsh was facing complaints over abusing players in staff communication. 

I really, really hate this othering of players and the tone some take that ‘they’re out to destroy the game’.  No.  Staff made mistakes and shifting the blame isn’t going to fix a damn thing.  The people who are discussing Arm on the shadowboards clearly still have an interest in the game and I suspect most, even the really jaded ones, secretly hope it can actually improve.  Rejecting their complaints and othering them will only keep important voices out of the conversation.

Those who have been abused or quit over the direction of the game are not the bad actors here.  Complaints are not abuse. Whistleblowing was needed.  Reform requires being open to other points of view and being willing to reflect internally about what went wrong, how it happened, steps to prevent it again and steps to repair the damage.

[CirclelessBard]

I agree. In particular, the othering is incredibly uncomfortable. Not only because it is so consistent within the community but because it's the main attitude that previous producers have held. No meaningful long-term change is possible unless we stop ignoring those who speak about the game outside of the community out of spite.

[BadSkeelz]

I would slightly change the verbiage on this thread's title from "Community commitment to accepting complaints" to "Community commitment to hearing complaints."

Some complaints are just not good. But they still deserve to be heard.

Having seen a lot of threads over the years that ultimately devolve in to shoving contests between the "everything is fine" vs "everything is not fine" crowds, I wonder if the GDB and the game might be better off with a new subforum: Player Feedback. It would be set up like Ask the Staff, except no one can respond to it - not staff, not other players, not even the original poster. Disable editing as well.

If you have feedback or a complaint or just something to get off your chest, it gets posted there. Can still have it hold to whatever rules the game decides on regarding IC secrecy or whatever, but discussion threads generally just turn in to shoving matches.

Such a (sub)forum would also greatly benefit from a Voting system, preferably recording both Upvotes and Downvotes separately.

[Maziel]

I would slightly change the verbiage on this thread's title from "Community commitment to accepting complaints" to "Community commitment to hearing complaints."

Some complaints are just not good. But they still deserve to be heard.

Having seen a lot of threads over the years that ultimately devolve in to shoving contests between the "everything is fine" vs "everything is not fine" crowds, I wonder if the GDB and the game might be better off with a new subforum: Player Feedback. It would be set up like Ask the Staff, except no one can respond to it - not staff, not other players, not even the original poster. Disable editing as well.

If you have feedback or a complaint or just something to get off your chest, it gets posted there. Can still have it hold to whatever rules the game decides on regarding IC secrecy or whatever, but discussion threads generally just turn in to shoving matches.

Such a (sub)forum would also greatly benefit from a Voting system, preferably recording both Upvotes and Downvotes separately.

I think peer review is important. It can be hard to determine the validity of something if you can't see what others have to say and you have no context, and also that entails a bunch of spinoff threads when someone sees something that they know absolutely isn't true.

Honestly, a lot of the issues here could be resolved if you could collapse sections of dialogue - directly respond to specific posts. Upvoting/downvoting. Being able to delete your own posts.

If we had stuff like that, then if someone disrespectfully and intentionally derails a thread, it'd be less visible due to votes and not being in a pertinent thread of convo. You could just collapse it and not have to concern yourself about x community member/staff ruining your open discussion simply because they don't like you/it.

[wizturbo]

If you have feedback or a complaint or just something to get off your chest, it gets posted there. Can still have it hold to whatever rules the game decides on regarding IC secrecy or whatever, but discussion threads generally just turn in to shoving matches.

EVE Online's 5000+ member organization "The Imperium" just had it's own community melt down over decades long drama recently and they instituted a similar practice.  They have a locked forum that you can post in but can't read anyone else's posts, and they have a member-led group called the "Bee Keepers" that are tasked with handling anything that goes into that forum.  They investigate claims of harassment, abuse, online stalking, etc and are not part of the direct leadership of in-game related issues.

[BadSkeelz]

Not being able to read anyone else's posts just makes that sound like a damage control measure. Simply giving people a tube to shout angrily in to is not a way to effect real change. It has to reach an audience and cause discontent, otherwise nothing will change.

[Calamari]

[self-moderated: off-topic]

[DesertT]

[self-moderated: off-topic]

I saw this before you moderated it so I'm tempted to respond.   

My question was serious.

The first sentence of Halaster's post regarding recent events states clearly: "Under no circumstances is abuse of any type okay."

The next sentence, "We will not, do not and never will condone it."

So they condemned the sexual harassment.

The second paragraph, Halaster acknowledged that trust was broken.  He makes it clear that actions have been taken AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE TAKEN.

The third paragraph, an apology is made.  Directly.

The fourth paragraph, he asks for the players' feedback and further: "We are asking for your help by participating in good faith in that conversation."

The second post of that thread he provides transparency which has been demanded repeatedly.  He gives it.  Shal was on the chopping block before this thing exploded.

When it exploded, before a full investigation was able to be reasonably conducted, the staffer was no longer a staffer.  No, not in the way everyone wanted to see, but Halaster ALSO apologized for that:  "I was clearly wrong, and I apologize for that."

They promise to be further transparent and have been, PLUS they've been listening.  Already, power has been disseminated from Staff to player-moderators for the GDB and Discord, A BIG STEP!!

The last part is Halaster saying, "this will not be the last word on the broader subject."

Plus, I can't seem to find it now, but there was further acknowledgement that the whole lack of a Sexual Harassment policy is being addressed.

I see a whole lot of effort on Staff's part but none of it seems to be good enough.

Halaster apologized for not being good enough in his steps!  He wasn't brought on to manage an organization.  Staff are brought on to drive stories, build, code, and be creative.

And now Halaster is stepping down.

My question is, what specific words or phrases do we as a community want to hear besides the above apologies, transparency, disseminating of power, and their promises to do better?

I know, we haven't heard yet what the full punishment against "he who shall not be named" is going to be, but it seems like everything else has been a really good start for an organization that was in no way shape or form prepared for something of this magnitude.

[BadSkeelz]

My question is, what specific words or phrases do we as a community want to hear besides the above apologies, transparency, disseminating of power, and their promises to do better?

"We are changing the rules and game so that you always know who you are playing with."

Systemic change. Not promises, not reshuffling of responsibilities and liabilities, but real change to how Armageddon players (staff and non-staff) deal with each other.

[DesertT]

"We are changing the rules and game so that you always know who you are playing with.”

I can get behind this on an Staff to player level, yes.

[Calamari]

My question was serious.

I wasn't sure. I wiped my post because I thought it was sarcasm. Since it's not, here we go. Read only the bold if you want the tldr:

So they condemned the sexual harassment.

No. They just condemned 'abuse' in general. I'm not sure if that's in reference to the abuse of sexual harassment, the abuse of banning of a player speaking out their complaint (likely the reason this thread was started), the abuse of using staff information on another character or even something else. Maybe it's about the banning of anyone saying the S-name in Discord the immediate days after the allegations were made. It is an open apology that lets the reader fill-in-the-blank with whatever assumptions they read it with. Before a small amount of clarification was given and with the context of multiple staff stepping down at the same time, it could have been Shabago eating some player's baby (as far as I'm aware that didn't happen) or almost any other notion you can conceive.

A number of the posts here at the GDB in response stated that they have no idea what occurred. I personally had no idea what it was about when I first read it and had to look at the shadowboards to get context. There were a number of allegations, some more grievous than others.

I'm still not sure. The only clarifying information we have is from the second post ("..long term, pervasive rudeness towards players"). That doesn't sound like sexual harassment to me. We'll likely never know what he meant because he has stepped down and never clarified. It could be one, any or all of the types of abuse I mentioned.

Do you have some extra information to be able to conclude it was about sexual harassment and not rude behavior in response to the submitted complaint?

The fourth paragraph, he asks for the players' feedback and further: "We are asking for your help by participating in good faith in that conversation."

This as others have noted elsewhere is cart before horse. I'd like to see that they're capable of making amends on their own volition. That would assure me they understand what happened, thought about it seriously and took actions to make amends without being provoked or instructed by others. This is very much one of the things that should not be in an apology. It's "What do you think I should do?" not "Here's what I've done to mend the damage done."

Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. Perhaps current staff could be transparent with their own thoughts on what changes they thought were necessary, as they were asked to make a list. I'd very much like to know that they are capable of responsibly handling this sort of issue in the future.

When it exploded, before a full investigation was able to be reasonably conducted, the staffer was no longer a staffer.  No, not in the way everyone wanted to see, but Halaster ALSO apologized for that:  "I was clearly wrong, and I apologize for that."

I don't think a full investigation was done. There hasn't been any statement they've were investigating or investigated it. Other than checking logs and asking the staff member for their response to the allegations, there isn't anything else that I can think of that they can investigate. That shouldn't take long and I believe we're still waiting.

Plus, I can't seem to find it now, but there was further acknowledgement that the whole lack of a Sexual Harassment policy is being addressed.

I hope that's the case. We're talking about changing a couple text files by adding a sentence or two, not an annual budget bill. I can't imagine there's a lot of partisanship politics bogging it down. Specifically what needs to be said and put into policy: "Sexual harassment of players is not acceptable in any part of our community and will be punished. This includes... This does not necessarily apply to characters, although... Don't be an obnoxious git. Also read help consent and help r."

It doesn't have to be precisely that. So far it's not said anywhere and hasn't been said anywhere to my knowledge. I'll take you at your word that you said you saw somewhere someone was intending to do that, but they still need to do it. A week ago. This shouldn't be controversial. Even the new rules posted (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59147.0.html) have rules about not abusing game bugs, but nothing about harassment or even just following Discord guidelines (https://discord.com/guidelines) which includes harassment. The reluctance to include the language, especially after recent events here is inexplicable. I give them the benefit of the doubt and consider it a small mistake.

The second post of that thread he provides transparency which has been demanded repeatedly.  He gives it.  Shal was on the chopping block before this thing exploded.

That's not clear. They haven't given us a timeline of when request tool complaints were sent and when the conversations happened.

Halaster apologized for not being good enough in his steps!  He wasn't brought on to manage an organization.  Staff are brought on to drive stories, build, code, and be creative.

This might be my own personal confusion, but as I understand it, Producer is the top of the hierarchy, responsible for managing the organization. I have never heard anything else. If Producers don't manage the organization, I'm confused as to who you think does.

This part of the thread is confused at best. It's starts like it's from one person, but ends with a 'we'. The reason for the delay makes no sense. A plurality most certainly didn't write the paragraphs before. Perhaps he delayed with the intent to cover the former staff member's identity, incorrectly finding it necessary to wait until he had a consensus of staff before disclosing. That's how I read it. I can't think of many reasons he needed to ask the staff he signed on if he was allowed to clarify an apology. I'm open to other interpretations on this curious contradiction.

----

I didn't quote everything you said because you did raise some points that I agree with or where a good job was done. They understood they needed to apologize and did try. They are making changes, but I have no idea into their thoughts behind why they are making them or what they think needs done to prevent this sort of thing happening again. The current model of (Player Feedback)->(Secret Staff Deliberation)->(Changes) isn't good. How about transparency? Responses or even ideas of their own? I haven't seen any staff member say "Here's some of my ideas, what do you guys think?" Instead, mum's the word and it feels like talking to a wall that may or may not be listening. It appears they are listening now, but listening isn't the same as transparency.

This post is more negative than I'd have liked to post, but you did want to hear what needs to be heard. It's a critical look over what was said from a different perspective. Hopefully it helps you understand where I and perhaps other players are coming from.

[Bast]

Can I point some of the worst sexual predators on Arm were banned and hang out on the jcaters boards. Back in the day I used to get berated on this forum for daring to make the suggestion we need to ban sexually violent rp from the mud. The ban we now have is ONLY here because of a player making IG accusations their character was raped when they weren’t that resulted in two innocent PC’s getting occ harassment for something they didn’t even do. Not for IG rape and sexual harassment but over a IG false accusation.

Taking accusations seriously is something I have witnessed staff get better at. We have more woman on staff that helps. There is obvious always room for improvement. But they’re toxic people in this community that would love to someone under a bus in a heart beat. Jumping on the band wagon assuming guilt when you have heard one side of a story makes you part of the issue.

It blows my mind there are people that haven’t played this game in 15+ years and spend their free time cheering for it to fail. I can not even begin to unpack how unhealthy that is. This is game it is supposed to be fun. If you are not having fun in the game just don’t play. Can you imagine what kind of person focuses that much energy on hating something they aren’t even part of that is intended to be entertaining? Why would you ever go hang out on their boards. I have been involved in the complaints that got some of the most vocal haters over there banned. The ones I know that  were banned were so for good reasons despite whatever they claim now.

Commenting on relationships that take place away from this game. Especially when you have an ex wife and ex husband who had a nasty divorce and both have gone out of the way to wound each other is not and should not be the business of staff. Now when that trickles in to the game it should be taken seriously. In the context of the game. You shouldn’t be chatting up people on discord in private chats and expecting Arm staff to ban someone for something that didn’t happen through official game channels. It’s not their job. This is an RPG. It’s game it is meant to be fun . It’s not a soap box or a bully pulpit.

At this point I think the discord just needs to go. Forum should be restricted to clan forums and game coordination only. We all feel passionately about this game. I don’t want to see it destroyed over people’s personal drama that takes place away from tbe game. There are IRL legal channels you can pursue if you are being harrassed in the real world. Staff should only be stepping in when it’s happening in the game. Players should feel safe and comfortable playing here. But if you take your relationship with another player off Arm it’s not Arm’s staff’s responsibility. In fact it’s frequently stated they don’t want players talking ooc. It ruins plots and they are right.

All that said the world has changed a lot since the 80’s- 90’s I do think the game needs to update a little. I have never once been able to get a single one of my black friends to ever stick to arm because they don’t enjoy rping the kind of racism and oppression they get everywhere they go IRL. Having a game where pleasure and sex slaves are common for the upper class maybe doesn’t set the stage for the best player behavior.

[CirclelessBard]

Can I point some of the worst sexual predators on Arm were banned and hang out on the jcaters boards. Back in the day I used to get berated on this forum for daring to make the suggestion we need to ban sexually violent rp from the mud. The ban we now have is ONLY here because of a player making IG accusations their character was raped when they weren’t that resulted in two innocent PC’s getting occ harassment for something they didn’t even do. Not for IG rape and sexual harassment but over a IG false accusation.

Taking accusations seriously is something I have witnessed staff get better at. We have more woman on staff that helps. There is obvious always room for improvement. But they’re toxic people in this community that would love to someone under a bus in a heart beat. Jumping on the band wagon assuming guilt when you have heard one side of a story makes you part of the issue.

It blows my mind there are people that haven’t played this game in 15+ years and spend their free time cheering for it to fail. I can not even begin to unpack how unhealthy that is. This is game it is supposed to be fun. If you are not having fun in the game just don’t play. Can you imagine what kind of person focuses that much energy on hating something they aren’t even part of that is intended to be entertaining? Why would you ever go hang out on their boards. I have been involved in the complaints that got some of the most vocal haters over there banned. The ones I know that  were banned were so for good reasons despite whatever they claim now.

Commenting on relationships that take place away from this game. Especially when you have an ex wife and ex husband who had a nasty divorce and both have gone out of the way to wound each other is not and should not be the business of staff. Now when that trickles in to the game it should be taken seriously. In the context of the game. You shouldn’t be chatting up people on discord in private chats and expecting Arm staff to ban someone for something that didn’t happen through official game channels. It’s not their job. This is an RPG. It’s game it is meant to be fun . It’s not a soap box or a bully pulpit.

At this point I think the discord just needs to go. Forum should be restricted to clan forums and game coordination only. We all feel passionately about this game. I don’t want to see it destroyed over people’s personal drama that takes place away from tbe game. There are IRL legal channels you can pursue if you are being harrassed in the real world. Staff should only be stepping in when it’s happening in the game. Players should feel safe and comfortable playing here. But if you take your relationship with another player off Arm it’s not Arm’s staff’s responsibility. In fact it’s frequently stated they don’t want players talking ooc. It ruins plots and they are right.

All that said the world has changed a lot since the 80’s- 90’s I do think the game needs to update a little. I have never once been able to get a single one of my black friends to ever stick to arm because they don’t enjoy rping the kind of racism and oppression they get everywhere they go IRL. Having a game where pleasure and sex slaves are common for the upper class maybe doesn’t set the stage for the best player behavior.

Where we agree: The world has changed indeed, and the game should change with it. We should take complaints of in-game harassment seriously.

Where we disagree:
1) This is not just about Shalooonsh and Bebop's relationship history outside of the game and I think painting the recent situation as such is disingenuous. To review:
- there are several credible reports that Shalooonsh allegedly sexually harassed people.  Not just his ex-wife, but there were several other targets as well.
- harassment reportedly occurred both in-game and out-of-game.
- Shalooonsh also allegedly used his power as a staff member to cheat, giving advantages to his own PC.

2) The othering of those who take reports outside of the community. It is counterproductive and I would argue it's the reason why the game is in this situation in the first place. To review:
- Halaster knew as early as 2007 that Shalooonsh allegedly engaged in abusive behavior.
- There are multiple reports on Reddit's r/MUD subforum that detail abuse by players, by staff, and some mention Shalooonsh by name.
- The latest report was taken to jcarter's forum, which if it indeed was a haven for Arm's "worst sexual predators", they probably would have rejected the latest story outright.
- Had the community taken any of these reports over the last 15 years seriously, the game would not be going through what it is going today. The matter of the allegations surrounding Shalooonsh's behavior would have long since been investigated, and action would have been taken.

So I do stand by my point that complaints should be taken seriously, regardless of their source. Regardless of whether we like what they say or whether we like who is saying it.

[Veselka]

It ultimately doesn’t matter why people won’t play ArmageddonMUD. Whether it’s based on perception, reality, optics of Staff action or inaction, toxic community or perceived toxic community etc.

If the game doesn’t have an active player base, there are reasons why. You can’t hold a gun to people’s heads and force them to play.

So you can try to shame people who left or won’t play, for whatever their various reasons are, or come to terms with the writing on the wall.

“I don’t play ArmageddonMUD because XYZ Staffer supposedly did these things”

And

“I don’t play ArmageddonMUD because of the toxic community”

And

“I don’t play ArmageddonMUD”

All are the same net result. The fewer active players, the less functional the game, and ultimately, it will lead to a final denouement.

There is quite a bit remaining Staff can do to right the ship. It starts with acknowledging the existential threat it faces. It doesn’t end with player moderators. It begins with a new mission statement, roadmap, and restructuring to better collaborate with the player base. I don’t see that happening. Most players that left don’t. And so it goes.