Feedback from non-players and targeted feedback is more needed than you think.

[CirclelessBard]

The funny thing to me is this demand that Staff do things a very certain way.

“Lift the curtain!!  No secrets!!”  Then when Halaster says exactly what they’re looking for, suddenly transparency isn’t good enough.  Now, you want to be the ones making decisions.

Staff could have easily told everyone to submit their feedback, then privately dismiss all the ones like Is Friday who flat out said they’re not coming back. 

This isn’t about transparency or staff process. 

This is about control.

I think this outlook is deeply mistaken and short-sighted.

It's mistaken simply because the assumption of intent isn't true. Feedback from former players just hasn't been couched in the terminology used to outline demands. It is typically written as a submission of an idea for consideration, or it is just presented firmly. I also phrased my suggestion in this way even though I played somewhat recently, albeit for a short time. Personally, I am not going to lower myself to the point of begging staff for things. Please don't mistake being assertive for being aggressive or demanding.

It's short-sighted because it seeks to paint those who criticize staff as wishing to simply control what they do. In other words, it frames their intent as malicious - which, frankly, cannot be true under the circumstances. No one making suggestions on how to make the game better secretly wants the game to be worse. No one writing long essays on how to improve the game is a troll trying to seize control. If players or staff wish to discard a portion of the feedback they receive simply because they don't like that the people giving that feedback are no longer playing, that is their prerogative - but they do so at the risk of ignoring feedback about what drives players away in the first place.

I feel that the idea that critics are trying to control staff does not come from a logical position or a position that is backed by evidence. That being said, I can understand the emotional argument. I can understand why players who have given so much time to this game fear what might come of it. This is a turning point for the game, to be sure. I think (and hope) we are all trying to make sure the game makes the correct turn. Just as the current players can work to make the game better for themselves, the former players can work to make the game better for their friends who still play.

[pilgrim]

I wouldn't want to hear from a bunch of people who left my game and weren't coming back.

I consider this an out-of-touch perspective. I personally really would. In the game I'm working on, I've thought about attaching a little note to the QUIT command: "if there's something you don't like and a reason that you're quitting, please let us know"... but it sounds ridiculously clingy, so I decided not to for now. It's something I would care to know so badly that I was seriously considering whether having a note like that was worth the Gollum vibes.

There's a serious reason that "exit interviews" are a thing. Most places that actually care about quality care about the perspective of departing individuals.

In Armageddon, you see that departing individuals care so much that they are willing to give that perspective without being chased. And yet, they are ridiculed either by staff themselves or by players who are suspiciously desperate to retain an abusive status quo-- either defensively clutching at victim-blaming rhetoric or otherwise minimizing the impact of a sexually-abusive person on staff.

I can't understand whether these players are abusive individuals themselves and seeking to maintain an environment where this kind of abuse is accepted -- or if they are only attempting to stay in the good graces of an administrative body that has historically both allowed and perpetrated abuse.

Speaking of that history, it's disappointing to see how many of the "new staff" are actually "returning staff". I was thinking to myself that there was like a 0.01% chance that the game would transform in such a way that I'd be comfortably playing, and sadly I don't really see that happening. The attempts made by Halaster et al are akin to... the toe-length shuffles of a baby learning to crawl. Maybe in a few years it'd be walking, if Armageddon was like a baby. But this baby is 20+ years old, completely armed with the logical advice of people who are practically begging it to just stand up and walk (such an easy win!), and for some reason it's just flopping around. Seeing this, my defeatist side tells me that pretty soon it's going to stop even trying to crawl, it's just going to go back to stuffing itself with cheesy potatoes.

[Supified]

I wouldn't want to hear from a bunch of people who left my game and weren't coming back.

Not yet anyway. Look at this thread, it's so full of decades of emotion, people are arguing about clearly posted rules on a forum and trying to compare it to "a massive veil of secrecy." There's a claim this is a thread of pissed off players - it's like 4 people in this thread, guys. Take a step back and get some perspective.

This is a text game from the 90s. It's only fun if the community works together towards the goal of collaborative storytelling. And right now there's a community of people that want to play the game without including weird shit behind the scenes. And it's pretty obvious there are former players who cannot play the game without including a bunch of stuff that is more appropriate for a therapist than a forum of strangers on the internet (there is nothing at all negative in my statement: everyone should have people to talk to, and there should be more easy access to and everyday acceptance of this.)

 
So, no, nothing that emotionally charged is going to be helpful at all. This isn't the place for cathartic release of emotions. This isn't the place for flaming Arm. This isn't the place for arguing with the mods.

Maybe the game will evolve, maybe not. Maybe someone on staff will reach out in a year or two to former players to show off changes, maybe not. Time will tell.

Until then, go flame on Reddit, or talk it out, or make a competing game, or forget about Arm, or whatever. If the game changes and one day you see a mention of it and you check it out, and it looks fun, then maybe give it another go.

This isn't the time or place for feedback from people that aren't interested in the game EXCEPT they're interested enough to spend time writing about it and talking about all their experiences playing it -- because nobody wants any part of the weird behind the scenes drama people were involved in, moving forward.

This attitude is a big part of why I think the culture of this game is so toxic.  This is essentially a my way or the high way post.  If you arn't playing you arn't cool with the culture as it is and if you arn't cool with the culture you don't get a voice.  You're only going to hear from the people who are more or less happy with the culture or at least, happy enough to want to stay.  This is going to shut down any views of people who are unhappy with the way things are the most. 

The entire time I've played Arm I've wrestled with this kind of attitude, where if you posted something against the grain you got shot down completely.  How many people left the game over this sort of thing?  Most will never come back and are not posting because they've moved on.  The people posting are the ones will in orbit enough to have GDB accounts and occasionally check things.  Your message to them? Go away.

Don't even qualify with the, it's not time maybe we'll throw a bone to them later.  There won't be a later, this is exactly the sort of attitude that I Feel is at the heart of what is wrong with this game and will kill it fastest. 

Finally you mention Reddit.  A place I feel is a more accurate depiction of this game's reputation.  Before reddit all of the places people talked about Armageddon were more or less controlled by Armageddon. Other game forums might have a thread and third party gripe boards may have existed, but never did you see a place before reddit where discussion was focused on muds and anyone could come together to talk.  The verdict?  They hate this place.  That should worry you a great deal because the reddit r/mud community, and we know that is what you're referring to, is generally not a negative place.  It's all about mud promotion and only this game and one other is treated the way it is. 

This isn't a them problem, this is a you problem.
(specically speaking to anyone who has this generally our way or the high way view of things)

[LindseyBalboa]

I wouldn't want to hear from a bunch of people who left my game and weren't coming back.

i was going to respond but you really cut out a sentence without the next few words (or any of the following supporting statements) to make your own context and then write paragraphs in response to it.

response

you spent 3 paragraphs talking about how this was a suppressive post focused on silencing differing opinions but the 4th paragraph responded to the point that there are tons of other places to talk, which was a pretty large point.

this is why i'm suggesting that if people are feeling very emotional about this game maybe they should focus on other stuff for a while. it's hard to participate in conversations and actively listen to other parties when you're focused on what you want to say.

again, it's a game. participate if you feel like and enjoy it, or don't; either decision can be changeable and either is fine.

[Riev]

I wouldn't want to hear from a bunch of people who left my game and weren't coming back.

i was going to respond but you really cut out a sentence without the next few words (or any of the following supporting statements) to make your own context and then write paragraphs in response to it.

response

you spent 3 paragraphs talking about how this was a suppressive post focused on silencing differing opinions but the 4th paragraph responded to the point that there are tons of other places to talk.

this is why i'm suggesting that if people are feeling very emotional about this game maybe they should focus on other stuff for a while. it's hard to participate in conversations and actively listen to other parties when you're focused on what you want to say.

again, it's a game. participate if you feel like and enjoy it, or don't; either decision can be changeable and either is fine.

I don't remember you being such an insufferable online personality.
If you are not open to feedback, don't spew forth. Thats what feedback is...

Code: [Select]

information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc. which is used as a basis for improvement.
It is not up to YOU, specifically, to determine whether the staff of Armageddon should take feedback from people that do not intend to play.
It is not up to YOU to tell people whether their opinions and feedback are worthwhile.

Who are YOU to say any of this? Stop attacking other players.

[LindseyBalboa]

I wouldn't want to hear from a bunch of people who left my game and weren't coming back.

i was going to respond but you really cut out a sentence without the next few words (or any of the following supporting statements) to make your own context and then write paragraphs in response to it.

response

you spent 3 paragraphs talking about how this was a suppressive post focused on silencing differing opinions but the 4th paragraph responded to the point that there are tons of other places to talk.

this is why i'm suggesting that if people are feeling very emotional about this game maybe they should focus on other stuff for a while. it's hard to participate in conversations and actively listen to other parties when you're focused on what you want to say.

again, it's a game. participate if you feel like and enjoy it, or don't; either decision can be changeable and either is fine.

I don't remember you being such an insufferable online personality.
If you are not open to feedback, don't spew forth. Thats what feedback is...

Code: [Select]

information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc. which is used as a basis for improvement.
It is not up to YOU, specifically, to determine whether the staff of Armageddon should take feedback from people that do not intend to play.
It is not up to YOU to tell people whether their opinions and feedback are worthwhile.

Who are YOU to say any of this? Stop attacking other players.

please reread your post and calm down. nobody (well, you did) is attacking other players. all i've done is offer a counterpoint player suggestion to a player suggestion that staff reverse their decision and allow non-interested-players to participate in one thread. i do not think they should participate in that thread, for the reasons stated.

again maybe there is a lot of emotion here for some people and maybe this particular public forum isn't the best place to air all these feelings out, as it is just a gaming board for a 90's text based game.

the conversation about the game's culture moving forward isn't one that's going to progress if it's mired down by every single person having their own conversation and working through their own emotions about it, imo.

edited to add the last paragraph, and ask that if you're someone that has read this and feels angry maybe reread it again assuming good faith and a connecting interest in some old ass game with bone swords and elves.

[mansa]

Hey friends,

I'm not sure if now is a good time to argue any points from fellow community members.  This thread in particular was set up for people to express their feelings and opinions about the process of taking feedback from community members who no longer want to play the game.

Some people will disagree with you.  That's fine.  It's feedback, not an argument to win.

[PriestlySiren]

Staff Complaints Rules:

Appealing. If you are dissatisfied with the response to your complaint, there is generally NOT an appeals process. There are two exceptions to this. If you have new information to bring to light about a complaint after it has been resolved, please e-mail the Producers directly at producers@armageddon.org. One of the Producers will respond and let you know what to do at that time. The other exception is for clarification. If you wish clarification on the response of a complaint, you may file a Game-Related: Question request to clarify. This type of request can only be resolved by an Administrator or higher, and in this case, any Administrator+ can provide more details. However, they will await Producer sign-off on the response.
Filing a complaint because you do not like or agree with the results of your previous complaint will result in a warning and rejection/dismissal of the request on the first occurrence. On the second occurrence, you will face a dismissal and week ban on the game/General Discussion Board. On the third occurrence, you will face dismissal and a month ban from the game and the GDB. On the fourth occurrence, the ban will become permanent.



REMOVE THESE from the 'RULES" of staff complaints. People should be able to seek more information or a further addressing of their issues.