Feedback from non-players and targeted feedback is more needed than you think.

[CirclelessBard]

It didn't seem appropriate to include this line of thought in the main feedback thread, since it's not really feedback for the game, but rather feedback on how feedback is being accepted.

While I appreciated the opportunity to post my thoughts in the "Feedback on changes you want to see" thread, it's pretty clear that the ground rules filter feedback in a way that ensures some of the most honest feedback is also going to be left unsaid. It essentially biases the feedback towards players who are still playing, when the problem is that more players are not playing because of the actions of staff.

I assume this is unintentional, and staff mean well in wanting to only hear from players that will actually play the game. However, truly knowing why talented players and staff have permanently departed from the game and hearing it from them directly is valuable because it gives the staff a mistake to be aware of and avoid. In other words, accepting feedback from departed/departing players lets staff learn from its mistakes. This particular rule feels like a purity test of sorts at a time where players' trust in staff is at its lowest. It demands that the poster declare (or at least feign) some level of loyalty to the game before posting, which is not really how constructive feedback is gathered.

Additionally, the rule regarding individually mentioning individuals seems harder to justify. Not all current and former staff are responsible for the current crisis equally. It is fair to say that different staff are responsible for it to varying degrees, either engaging in rulebreaking/unethical behavior directly, or being aware of it but not doing anything about it, or not being aware of it at all. Criticizing the staff body entirely for the actions of a few feels morally small-minded and I would not be surprised in this rule is also hampering some of the feedback due to the sheer unwillingness of decent people to generalize when it is unfair to do so.

The enforcement of these rules has only been justified in that the rules were pre-established, even though I think from context, posters were essentially trying to challenge these rules as not being conducive to good, honest feedback.

In conclusion, I would like staff to carefully consider that the rules they set for this discussion may actually be counterproductive to the overall goal.

[Dracul]

It didn't seem appropriate to include this line of thought in the main feedback thread, since it's not really feedback for the game, but rather feedback on how feedback is being accepted.

While I appreciated the opportunity to post my thoughts in the "Feedback on changes you want to see" thread, it's pretty clear that the ground rules filter feedback in a way that ensures some of the most honest feedback is also going to be left unsaid. It essentially biases the feedback towards players who are still playing, when the problem is that more players are not playing because of the actions of staff.

I assume this is unintentional, and staff mean well in wanting to only hear from players that will actually play the game. However, truly knowing why talented players and staff have permanently departed from the game and hearing it from them directly is valuable because it gives the staff a mistake to be aware of and avoid. In other words, accepting feedback from departed/departing players lets staff learn from its mistakes. This particular rule feels like a purity test of sorts at a time where players' trust in staff is at its lowest. It demands that the poster declare (or at least feign) some level of loyalty to the game before posting, which is not really how constructive feedback is gathered.

Additionally, the rule regarding individually mentioning individuals seems harder to justify. Not all current and former staff are responsible for the current crisis equally. It is fair to say that different staff are responsible for it to varying degrees, either engaging in rulebreaking/unethical behavior directly, or being aware of it but not doing anything about it, or not being aware of it at all. Criticizing the staff body entirely for the actions of a few feels morally small-minded and I would not be surprised in this rule is also hampering some of the feedback due to the sheer unwillingness of decent people to generalize when it is unfair to do so.

The enforcement of these rules has only been justified in that the rules were pre-established, even though I think from context, posters were essentially trying to challenge these rules as not being conducive to good, honest feedback.

In conclusion, I would like staff to carefully consider that the rules they set for this discussion may actually be counterproductive to the overall goal.

Seconded.

I would also say that those are bad rules to facilitate communication. The feedback discussion is not being held in an open forum and feels ingenuine because of it. The phrase good faith has been used and I don't see it being upheld.

I am a current player, and I have things to say, but I don't believe they will be taken seriously. They may even be deleted.

Allowing input from from everyone who has ever been a part of this community would be a step towards making this unimportant player feel more comfortable sharing my feedback.

[DesertT]

Counterproductive is a pretty strong word.

Sounds like you’re trying to claim that if Staff doesn’t want feedback from those who have no intention of playing again, then the feedback from the rest of us isn’t viable enough and/or actually isn’t good enough nor meaningful to prompt real change.

I don’t feel it’s counterproductive at all.

Does it limit a measure of potentially decent feedback that NOBODY else is going to mention?  Maybe.

But that doesn’t make it counterproductive.

Words mean things.

[CirclelessBard]

Respectfully, I'm not going to argue over word choices. I wrote more than one word in my post and I feel my meaning is clear enough.

[Hestia]

Constructive feedback is still welcome from anyone who doesn't want to play ever again. Just not in that singular thread.  They can post it here in this thread if you would like them to - and obviously this thread is being read by staff.

[Dracul]

Constructive feedback is still welcome from anyone who doesn't want to play ever again. Just not in that singular thread.  They can post it here in this thread if you would like them to - and obviously this thread is being read by staff.

Can you place the posted that were moved to moderation from the feedback thread here?

[Hestia]

Constructive feedback is still welcome from anyone who doesn't want to play ever again. Just not in that singular thread.  They can post it here in this thread if you would like them to - and obviously this thread is being read by staff.

Can you place the posted that were moved to moderation from the feedback thread here?

As far as I know, at least one of those posts was already returned to that one. There has been nothing preventing anyone from posting their constructive feedback in any other on-topic thread all along. There is, and has not, been any GDB rule forbidding it. It is a thread-specific rule that just doesn't apply anywhere else. Posters are free to re-post their own posts in this thread if they wish, if they feel it's constructive.

The USUAL rules of the GDB will continue to apply, however. Flaming, baiting, trolling, namecalling, personal attacks and insults, etc. etc. don't belong on the GDB, in any thread. But constructive criticism from ex-players who have no intention of returning are welcome here, in this thread, or in one of the others that had been opened by players since the other thread was created with the restrictions.

[creeper386]

Constructive feedback is still welcome from anyone who doesn't want to play ever again. Just not in that singular thread.  They can post it here in this thread if you would like them to - and obviously this thread is being read by staff.

This seems really disingenuous. Either you want and accept the feedback or you don't. Restricting it in one specific thread but saying it's accepted elsewhere is weird.

If you want to start a thread for the purpose of feedback to help improve the game. One you should accept feedback from people that for whatever reason at this time aren't interested in playing the game. Otherwise the issues that caused them to leave may not be addressed and well continue being an issue potentially further driving away other players.

Having it all in one place would make it way easier to read through and parse ideas ... Otherwise what's even the point of having a singular thread for feedback if in reality you have n number of threads to read through.

[BadSkeelz]

Waiting almost 3 days before allowing additional feedback furthers the notion that Staff really only want some kinds of feedback. Who knows how many former players came to the GDB, saw in bold text "we don't want to hear from you," and left?

[Veselka]

There is nothing in the current Staff contract regarding Storytellers acting as moderators of the GDB or Discord. At this point it’s obvious that certain Staff simply enjoy being moderators of their peers. Or, put simply, they do not view players as peers but as detractors, bad faith actors, or whatever else they invent.

Halaster — I implore you to revoke moderation privileges from Storytellers. It isn’t in their responsibilities, and it shouldn’t be. Administrators and Producers (and self policing player moderators) should be the only ones making these decisions.

[Pariah]

There is nothing in the current Staff contract regarding Storytellers acting as moderators of the GDB or Discord. At this point it’s obvious that certain Staff simply enjoy being moderators of their peers. Or, put simply, they do not view players as peers but as detractors, bad faith actors, or whatever else they invent.

Halaster — I implore you to revoke moderation privileges from Storytellers. It isn’t in their responsibilities, and it shouldn’t be. Administrators and Producers (and self policing player moderators) should be the only ones making these decisions.

With all that just happened and is still being discussed, you're worried about who plays moderator on the forums?

Come on man, let's get staff to stop sexually harassing folks and stalking them first, then we can move on to minor shit.

[BadSkeelz]

Best way to go about that is for staff to take their masks off and stop perpetuating a culture of silence and gaslighting that only allows such predators to persist. Enforcing a narrative on an ill-informed playerbase is conducive to that.

[CirclelessBard]

Constructive feedback is still welcome from anyone who doesn't want to play ever again. Just not in that singular thread.  They can post it here in this thread if you would like them to - and obviously this thread is being read by staff.

Can you place the posted that were moved to moderation from the feedback thread here?

As far as I know, at least one of those posts was already returned to that one. There has been nothing preventing anyone from posting their constructive feedback in any other on-topic thread all along. There is, and has not, been any GDB rule forbidding it. It is a thread-specific rule that just doesn't apply anywhere else. Posters are free to re-post their own posts in this thread if they wish, if they feel it's constructive.

The USUAL rules of the GDB will continue to apply, however. Flaming, baiting, trolling, namecalling, personal attacks and insults, etc. etc. don't belong on the GDB, in any thread. But constructive criticism from ex-players who have no intention of returning are welcome here, in this thread, or in one of the others that had been opened by players since the other thread was created with the restrictions.

I have to agree that the way the opportunity to present feedback was presented really did seem to turn away former players. Consider that the main feedback thread was the first thing everyone saw, and the only indication we have that other feedback is allowed is your reply buried in a player's post days later. One of these things is easier to see than the other.

The matter of targeted feedback should still be allowed and I think there are many ways to present that feedback without it being considered namecalling or personal attacks, provided that individual staff are open to that feedback in the first place. But if staff as a whole prefer to be addressed as a singular body, then so be it.

[Vwest]

With all that just happened and is still being discussed, you're worried about who plays moderator on the forums?

Come on man, let's get staff to stop sexually harassing folks and stalking them first, then we can move on to minor shit.

In case you aren't keeping up, the games history of heavy moderation and aggressive information control are the reasons sexual harassment and similar have been such a festering wound in the community for years. There wouldn't even be a record of what happened, how severe it was, who was involved or how long it had been going on, were it not for jcarter's forum offering a place for people to have a voice without fear of it being moderated and subjected to the usual staff/GDB spin.

That's the state of the game and has been for a long time. You want to bust Veselka's chops for being anti-moderation... now? Really?

Veselka made a post at the bottom of page 2 in the feedback thread, literally begging the games leaders to take away Hestia's moderation power, because it was making a bad situation even worse with a pretty apt analogy. The result?

Moderated by Haldol for violating the following rules:

b)  Name-calling, bashing individuals, trolling, all of that is not allowed.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 03:16:01 PM by Haldol »

I've got screens of both before and after, by the way, if you think I'm bullshitting you. There was no name calling, bashing or trolling. I'm well-versed in all three, so I know it when I see it. I don't even see how it could be seen as any of those things. Passionate? Desperate and angry? Sure. Trolling? Hell, no.

Nothing would have as much or as immediate an improvement in player trust and preventing / eliminating abuse, like people knowing they can post about it in this community without fear of being silenced, mocked, punished or dismissed for it. It seems like a pipe dream, when people can't even beg for mercy without getting moderated and misrepresented by the people doing the moderating.

The extremist moderation needs to go.

[Suhuy]

Constructive feedback is still welcome from anyone who doesn't want to play ever again. Just not in that singular thread.  They can post it here in this thread if you would like them to - and obviously this thread is being read by staff.

This seems really disingenuous. Either you want and accept the feedback or you don't. Restricting it in one specific thread but saying it's accepted elsewhere is weird.

This.

Hestia, just stop. How can you not see the massive load of fuel you're dumping on a fire while simultaneously alleging you want to put it out?

I don't see a single player jumping to your defense in this. Rather, I see a thread full of players you're angering. Knock it off.

[Wday]

We still kicking a dead horse here?  Spending days to weeks on how to make it so staff (who is at their homes or work) has to make someone FEEL safe?  First off remember you are all playing from a computer, there is a off button or disconnect way to leave a scene!  You Do not have to set through it, log off send a complaint and wait.  It is a game!

Now if you been playing with so and so and it grows into stalking or bugging you outside the game. Yes that is a issue and report it!  But how in the hell is a staff member going to do anything if you are playing out over half the scenes you are reporting as abuse? Now I do not know the details of the cases that has brought us here. But that is simple enough to do so we can move on and play. If it is OUTSIDE the game I think the law is who you really report to then. Not your local game dungeon masters.

Now before we all say WE did that and nothing happen!  Also remember it seems one or ones in question with this is gone! They left! fired or quit or simply whatever.  They are gone from here, you can try and feel safe and dive into the game or you can set and dwell on past and assume it will repeat.  But what I read here is staff saying yes it went bad we are cleaning up and fixing it, offering ways to show they are going to work at it.  But we are spending time on discord and forums pointing at mistakes and past. And as for players not staff as far as I know!  I have over years got message pasted to me from a LOT of us players here about me and the payer side is not as flawless as acted now. Lot of things I have been some toxic ass shit that I assume was just players trying to act hard like their characters in a way and no emotion or empathy to another person.

[CirclelessBard]

This thread is about the staff process of accepting feedback.

[DesertT]

The funny thing to me is this demand that Staff do things a very certain way.

“Lift the curtain!!  No secrets!!”  Then when Halaster says exactly what they’re looking for, suddenly transparency isn’t good enough.  Now, you want to be the ones making decisions.

Staff could have easily told everyone to submit their feedback, then privately dismiss all the ones like Is Friday who flat out said they’re not coming back. 

This isn’t about transparency or staff process. 

This is about control.

[LindseyBalboa]

I wouldn't want to hear from a bunch of people who left my game and weren't coming back.

Not yet anyway. Look at this thread, it's so full of decades of emotion, people are arguing about clearly posted rules on a forum and trying to compare it to "a massive veil of secrecy." There's a claim this is a thread of pissed off players - it's like 4 people in this thread, guys. Take a step back and get some perspective.

This is a text game from the 90s. It's only fun if the community works together towards the goal of collaborative storytelling. And right now there's a community of people that want to play the game without including weird shit behind the scenes. And it's pretty obvious there are former players who cannot play the game without including a bunch of stuff that is more appropriate for a therapist than a forum of strangers on the internet (there is nothing at all negative in my statement: everyone should have people to talk to, and there should be more easy access to and everyday acceptance of this.)
 
So, no, nothing that emotionally charged is going to be helpful at all. This isn't the place for cathartic release of emotions. This isn't the place for flaming Arm. This isn't the place for arguing with the mods.

Maybe the game will evolve, maybe not. Maybe someone on staff will reach out in a year or two to former players to show off changes, maybe not. Time will tell.

Until then, go flame on Reddit, or talk it out, or make a competing game, or forget about Arm, or whatever. If the game changes and one day you see a mention of it and you check it out, and it looks fun, then maybe give it another go.

This isn't the time or place for feedback from people that aren't interested in the game EXCEPT they're interested enough to spend time writing about it and talking about all their experiences playing it -- because nobody wants any part of the weird behind the scenes drama people were involved in, moving forward.

[BadSkeelz]

This isn't the time or place for feedback from people that aren't interested in the game EXCEPT they're interested enough to spend time writing about it and talking about all their experiences playing it -- because nobody wants any part of the weird behind the scenes drama people were involved in, moving forward.

To be clear, the biggest challenge facing Armageddon right now is not two mutually toxic players who should both have been banned ten years ago. It's widespread degradation of Staff standards and practices that's given rise to cheating, sanctioned collusion, and (incidentally) toxic 'behind the scenes drama.' All of these issues stem from Staff a) apparently colluding with themselves and their chosen players and b) enforcing a environment where your only avenue for addressing these individuals is to ask Staff to investigate themselves, and you can only even begin that conversation by acknowledging you've broken rules Staff have in place to protect themselves.

[BadSkeelz]

To elaborate and tie a bit back in to this particular thread's theme: over the years a lot of players only meaningful course of giving feedback on the game has been to walk away from it. If we actually want this game to continue recover and grow, isn't it in our interest to be inviting and hear these people out so we can make better informed decisions?

Restricting the dialogue as Staff originally did (and still try to do) is just going to further push this playerbase being made up solely of a diminishing supply staff pets, the oblivious, and oblivious staff pets.

[FantasyWriter]

1. I Understand and agree with having ONE thread for people who are here to try to fix things.

2. I am glad there are people who don't fit that description who still want to voice their problems and concerns with the game, staff, players, and overall community.  Statistically, we are aging out and dying out (from attrition) as a community.  If we don't draw in old/new players, we are on life support until we literally start dying off IRL. These voices deserve a place, but don't begrudge those of us who are here still or trying to decide to stay (me) or comeback having one place to collaborate in the open on what WE need and want to make that happen.

3. The problems here are not new. NONE OF THEM. Some of the heavier ones (stalking and harassment) do not appear to have been as widely know as some seem to believe they were.  This is why we needs to hear from every willing person who has ever been or wants to be a part of this community. A bandaid is not going to do anything but keep us on life support a little longer. Thr more information thr community has to move forward, the better.

[PriestlySiren]

I decided to log into my GDB to make this point: I do not intend to return to Armageddon. Ever. The lack of transparency, consequences, and respect has given me complexes about staff members in any and all games. I don't trust them, and staff members meddling with characters in other games I've played has given me real OOC anxiety and it's not healthy.


 In the back of my mind there was always a thought of 'maybe if this staffer were removed, I would feel safe enough to dip my toe in again.' It happened, and I did not. So my very targeted, very directed feedback to staff is to stop viewing players as your enemy. Stop brushing aside complaints, particularly those that can be substantiated by actual logs in-game.


Wish answers should not be anonymous nor should OOC comments dealing with a situation come from 'a staff member'. Staff should have to own their behavior and interactions with players when they are behaving shittily and a slap on the wrist only works with first time offenders. After the second time, you find there's a pattern.

There needs to be a policy in place where staff cannot engage in discord DMs with players in a one-on-one method. If there are instances where a player needs to address issues privately, a group chat with at least three people (the PLAYER'S choice, not staff's choice) should be made. Staff who have been involved or watching in the deaths of multiple characters of a single player should be flagged for investigation. Maybe it's nothing, but maybe they have a grudge.



Finally, treat your players like they are living human beings. People make mistakes as staff members and as players. But when accountability only goes one way and speaking out results in being moderated, banned, potentially threatened... it is only the players who are meant to be held responsible.


I am a woman who was made to feel incredibly unsafe, anxious and disrespected in several different situations over years of play. I'm not perfect and I have made mistakes of my own, but I didn't deserve some of the treatment I was given. I felt violated by staff when I brought my issues to them, only to be brushed off with a not-apology and nothing changing and there was never a single time in my complaints (even through all of this, I only made 2 over 10 years of play and both of those within the last year of my play), that I felt heard, respected, or taken seriously.


After a point, my play was all for the players and friends I had made over the years, and I still think of a great many of you with absolute affection and respect and do miss playing with you.

[Delirium]

I decided to log into my GDB to make this point: I do not intend to return to Armageddon. Ever. The lack of transparency, consequences, and respect has given me complexes about staff members in any and all games. I don't trust them, and staff members meddling with characters in other games I've played has given me real OOC anxiety and it's not healthy.


 In the back of my mind there was always a thought of 'maybe if this staffer were removed, I would feel safe enough to dip my toe in again.' It happened, and I did not. So my very targeted, very directed feedback to staff is to stop viewing players as your enemy. Stop brushing aside complaints, particularly those that can be substantiated by actual logs in-game.


Wish answers should not be anonymous nor should OOC comments dealing with a situation come from 'a staff member'. Staff should have to own their behavior and interactions with players when they are behaving shittily and a slap on the wrist only works with first time offenders. After the second time, you find there's a pattern.

There needs to be a policy in place where staff cannot engage in discord DMs with players in a one-on-one method. If there are instances where a player needs to address issues privately, a group chat with at least three people (the PLAYER'S choice, not staff's choice) should be made. Staff who have been involved or watching in the deaths of multiple characters of a single player should be flagged for investigation. Maybe it's nothing, but maybe they have a grudge.



Finally, treat your players like they are living human beings. People make mistakes as staff members and as players. But when accountability only goes one way and speaking out results in being moderated, banned, potentially threatened... it is only the players who are meant to be held responsible.


I am a woman who was made to feel incredibly unsafe, anxious and disrespected in several different situations over years of play. I'm not perfect and I have made mistakes of my own, but I didn't deserve some of the treatment I was given. I felt violated by staff when I brought my issues to them, only to be brushed off with a not-apology and nothing changing and there was never a single time in my complaints (even through all of this, I only made 2 over 10 years of play and both of those within the last year of my play), that I felt heard, respected, or taken seriously.


After a point, my play was all for the players and friends I had made over the years, and I still think of a great many of you with absolute affection and respect and do miss playing with you.

Other than a few minor details this could have been written by me, and I know we are not the only two. When it's a pattern it's a pattern.

I wish you all the best choices and a healthier path forward but in my case you managed to burn through the very last fuck I had to give when you nuked my response forcing transparency over just ONE of the bad actors you've sheltered on staff.

Good luck and goodbye.

[kahuna]

It's easy to say you don't care but perhaps you care less. I can say at one point I cared 10/10 and now maybe I care 2/10 or 1/10. If I was at a 0 I wouldn't be posting here or thinking about Arm during the day and I feel the same way about anyone who says they don't care.  Maybe we want people to think we don't care?

If you truly don't care you're just rubbing salt in the wound. They've at the very least acknowledged they fucked up so it's not very productive to post just how little you care. Of course I understand the venting process as well so I see why.

Just an observation.