Author Topic: Feedback on Changes You Want to See  (Read 5335 times)


  • Posts: 7
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2023, 03:15:44 PM »
This is what I understand from what was made public here:
An unspecified event happend recently. Abuse is not okay and is not condoned by staff. Regulations, rules and trust were broken. Two staff members stepped down, one permanently retired. A moderator who may or may not have ever heard of the Streisand effect decided to shut down the forums and discord. The discord was reopened. The forums remain partially closed.

My feedback:
Staff needs to learn how to communicate better. That may mean stating what events took place or naming specific individuals, uncomfortable as it may be. Asking for feedback on a matter that staff is unwilling to talk about and has taken measures to limit the conversation is absurd. This only tells me they need very serious work with being open when communicating.

If staff isn't willing to define the topic they wish to have feedback upon, that is the only response I feel they deserve to hear. Let us know when you're willing to talk about the issue.

edit: I'm glad to see that there's some effort being made since my initial posting: acknowledging what has happened. Apologizing effectively is a very important life skill that is sometimes very difficult to learn. While there's room to grow here (I'll link a resource that might be helpful), I felt it was a small but very important step forward that gave me hope for seeing earnest reform.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 09:31:16 PM by Calamari »


  • Posts: 1922
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2023, 03:19:55 PM »
I think that karma — or rather, the way that it is sometimes arbitrarily removed or granted — has been an enormous problem. Far worse of a problem than people rolling up HGs for a lameass one-off PK. Just as we are discussing possible favoritism in relation to people using sex for benefits, so too does /disliking/ a player for personal reasons affect the “fairness” of the karma system.

I never had any problems with any staff until my 8, or 9 karma, was reduced to 4, for something I was never asked about, spoken to about, or anything at all. And in speaking of biases, the person who led the charge to have my karma removed… was someone with a grudge against me. Empirically, she did, and when she attacked me on social media, she did not even attempt to hide it.

Grudges are just as much of a problem as favoritism. 

So, what’s the solution?

Look, guys. It doesn’t make sense to karma wall people who have been playing this game for longer than some people have been alive over anything, much less what happened two decades ago.

Sure, if someone who has played the game 30 years keeps rolling up muls and wantonly killing fuckers, that’s a problem.

But with the favoritism and grudges that have abounded amongst staff, both those publicly bandied about and those not spoken of openly, it makes zero sense to forbid good players, like RogerDodger, Tuannom, and anyone else who has spoken publicly about playing this game for 20 years without getting max karma, from being able to play what they want, without asking permission of someone who’s newer.

Give all of the people who have played this game over ten years, or whatever number, max karma, and if they fuck it up, explain what they did wrong, temporarily remove the option, and move forward.

I have had some amazing players and people who have been around this game for decades confide that they only have two karma.  That’s… man… especially when favoritism is taken into account, it just doesn’t make sense. A lot of times, I am afraid that karma has been a popularity contest, as opposed to an actual measure of how much someone loves the game.

I just spent 22 days played as a 3 karma race, and I think I did a pretty damn good job.  When old grudges enter the equation, it doesn’t matter how good of a job you’ve done.

Favoritism and grudges are two sides of this coin we’re discussing.  You can’t discuss one without the other. You can’t talk about people getting hooked up for having nice parts without talking about someone getting snubbed because they dusted some lady’s character 15 years ago, cause like, some people don’t let shit go… and many will hurt others out of spite or because they can.

For some of the deeper rooted problems this game faces to have a chance of being repaired, EACH side of this grudge/favoritism spectrum must be thoroughly examined… and repaired.

Thanks for reading. OH,

And here is a video of me discussing grudges and why they’re a problem for the game:
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 04:07:27 PM by Kronibas »


  • Posts: 794
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2023, 03:49:59 PM »
Players are the foundation of this game…no players?  No need for staff.  And…the most primitive organizations have had a chief, a headman, a king, or some ruling person or body of people…a staff of sorts. 

I would like to know the event(s) that started this Armageddon epiphany.  I read ”guesses, maybes, my understanding of”…  I would like to hear the facts from some staff member(s) in the know.  A great first step into transparency.   Some sort of summary would work for me.   It is important to know exactly what the problem is before you can discuss or decide on a resolution to the problem.   Open up the curtains and let the players see what is going on.

Are we dealing with harassment, sexual assault, innuendo, consent or the lack of, cheating the game rules, insider information, what is going on?  Is this widespread?  Been happening over a period of years?  Answers please.

I am one of Kronibas’s unwashed that he talks about…I have played 20+ years and have 2 karma.    I have not been angrynor loud about it, neither here nor in requests.  I just typed out a summary of my last karma check but erased it.  This not about me.  I love this game.  Do what it takes to save it.
I'd rather be lucky than good.


  • Posts: 459
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2023, 04:01:15 PM »
The change I want to see is an end to the heavy-handed moderation and information control efforts, because it's the internet in 2023 and both are incredibly detrimental to the games image and the glaring issue of trust. The staffs obsessive need to assert control over the dwindling number of players with bureaucratic bullshit is one of the core things that needs to change.

Let people say what they want and need to say in your thread, Hal. The feedback you need to return the game to a healthy state isn't going to be found here, otherwise.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 04:14:14 PM by Vwest »
Someone says, out of character:
     "Sorry, was a wolf outside, had to warn someone."



  • Posts: 1475
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2023, 04:22:16 PM »
This is a place-holder.  I will edit-post possible suggestions for solutions later.

In the meantime, four comments that are only meant to provide perspective.

1)  The rule for this thread not to single out any individual, whether with positive or negative comment, is causing ArmageddonMUD moderation and image difficulties.  If a player wants to provide feedback and a solution about a specific action or occurrence that only one person might have been engaged in or involved with, even without mentioning the individual's name that post will likely be moderated out.  Unless moderators can gently adjust such posts to be less specific, the posted contribution ends up trashed and the other readers might feel that something is being concealed.  This is a problem.

2)  I believe my fellow players now more than staff and I don't even like most of my fellow players.  The straightforward reason:  When people that I respect have had severe conflict with ArmageddonMUD staff, the player's version of events has more than once proven accurate, verifiable and condemning. 

The staff's initial response in several incidents involved punitive muzzling of the player making the claim, in-game punishments for the player making the claim and lingering negative after-effects to other player who supported the player's claim.  These are statements made by people I believe to be ethical, backed with evidence reluctantly presented only after every other good-faith constructive avenue available to them was blocked.  This is a problem.

3)  I am furious that there are credible claims that staff have been caught cheating again.  The rules presented to the playerbase were pretty clear-cut: 

Staff may play PCs as any other player may but with a few special restrictions and one bonus:

  Bonus - Staff may have more than one active PC, but no more than one online at any moment.
  Staff will not play in clans they directly oversee. 
  Staff will not play Sorcerors, Mindworms, Nobles, Templars, GMH family members or Clan leaders as their own PCs. 
  Staff may animate a special-use Resource NPC in one of the above special positions, but only for a limited time and only for a specific defined purpose.  Resource NPCs may not be used to harm player characters.  Harm was defined not as just killing, but also included damage to reputation, wealth, status or opportunity. 

These rules were presented to the playerbase as a solution to previous staff abuse.  Staff have stated that previous violations of these rules had caused problems and trust issues, but that future staff adherence to these rules would prove a correction measure and rebuild trust.  If staff are violating those rules, this is a problem.

4)  ArmageddonMUD might conceivably have some liability for harm done to a player after having provably received numerous previous complaints about unethical or illegal behavior by members of its staff with no corrective action.  Ignoring liability, reputation depends on whether people expect you to do the right thing or the wrong thing.  Reputation is what determines life or death of a MUD. This is a problem for ArmageddonMUD.

Sitting in your comfort,
You don't believe I'm real,
But you cannot buy protection
from the way that I feel.


  • Posts: 336
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2023, 04:24:58 PM »
If we assume that people have mostly followed the system, then this is where the design gets us. The rules, set-up, structure of meta-Armageddon have failed everyone to some extent. Otherwise this type of lockdown and feedback stuff wouldn't need to happen.

Going into the future, let us single people out.
I don't want to play this game of one staff member represents the staff as a whole, they don't. We're just being forced to say they do even if we don't feel that way; because we will be moderated for it. You guys shouldn't want to take the blame for what someone else did either. At this point I guess what? I call out the whole staff as being sex pests? God I wish the entire staff didn't abuse their power to stalk certain players over and over again. This feels so silly to tip toe around, and I feel bad blaming random people for things they didn't do.

Staff avatars getting their items approved is like technically not cheating, but it's really borderline when those items are insane. 1 stone daggers that hit as hard as a voulge. A miscreant could 1 shot people with their backstab, no poisons required. Those were so dumb before the nerf. This connects to the greater staff avatar problem. So does the fact that staff befriend each other. So they want to play together. Then you get multiple avatars in the same clan. Now there's a whole team OOC and IC working together. It's just -so- ripe for abuse. And abuse has been had, over and over again. If we want to go on about not singling people out then the entire staff should lose this privilege due to a few bad apples.

Speaking of playing the game; heavy-handed OOC meddling by the entire staff team really sucks. It's honestly worse than having a staffer that you only know exists because they respond to reports like every 3 weeks. Being told by the entire staff that you need to be in constant conflict, can't be rich, and you need to fire the person you just hired is actual ass. It's fucking maddening to hire someone, then find them the next irl day, and pretend your PC has had a lobotomy so you can fire them. Another thing that sucks is being told it's possible to have some long term goal, and if you work at it it'll happen. You get it approved in a report. Then staff rotation happens, and the next staffer 180s everything, because they don't want to do it.

Adding on to staff rotations... why can it get fucked up? Why does it just not happen sometimes? Why do you get stuck with a staff member you don't want for an irl year? You can look forward to rotations, but not if they don't actually happen.
Paired with some of the previous stuff it makes you want to quit the game. This is the WORST for sponsored roles. You can't leave that clan, and if you love the PC? Too fucking bad. This is straight up a lose-lose. Players feel fucked over, and you guys make more work for yourself when you need to sponsor another role.

It should probably be an 18+ game. Social attitude is different today. You can be a rapist, you can be  slaver, you can mudsex 16 year olds, etc. It's uh, kinda mature.

Arm stuff should just be available for everyone to view, transparency. Game logs, messages, staff forums, and request tool stuff. Whatever else. Everytime some ass hat is like the whole staff is cheating (like me in this post) you guys should just slap them with logs. Problem solved in a healthy way. That level of transparency would just let you guys prove no funny stuff is happening, and then we'd KNOW we can trust you all. As is, players can allege anything, and you guys can't show anything that says otherwise. You can only put your foot down and go no, nuh-uh. You can't demonstrate that you all aren't sex pests. If you guys NEED to call us shit heads you can still just do that in DMs, emails, or private discord.

The GDB needs a like function. I want the upd00ts. Reaction emojis would be good too.

Announcements need to reach the player in every way possible. It's possible to never use the gdb or discord and play. There have been times when kosher things turned into bannable things, and you might not ever know. Like the N word being banned in game after being used for years.

Clans being put into the blender isn't super fun. No one wants ask for a day off to log in for an rpt, sit around for 3 hours for people to show up, and have most of the clan die in an event. I think the Byn has the biggest problem with this, at least historically. I like playing my PCs more than whatever fun the rpt could possibly be. This just makes me want to avoid every rpt.

In order to not have nightmare difficulty PR events happen again we probably should have some kind of votekick option on staffers. Paired with high level transparency, this wouldn't be abused. If we want to votekick a sex pest, then give them a chance to show that they aren't. Maybe it was just a fake news campaign against them by some haters. Right now, all any staff can say is nuh-uh. That's horrible, and we should let people stand up for themselves.

Again, this spot we all find ourselves in now is the result of the system in place.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 04:28:51 PM by Medivh »
Backstab is actually the only dialog option an assassin has.


  • Posts: 10815
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2023, 09:22:58 PM »
Perhaps another meeting is in order.

With a special panel of voted moderators?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 09:25:11 PM by MeTekillot »


  • Posts: 9403
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2023, 12:55:21 AM »
Hi Armageddon Mud Staff. I have been thinking about this thread for awhile. I was on the fence about even contributing. I am feeling very angry, sad and frustrated about what has been done about players who were punished for pointing out blatant staff errors. I really hate that some great writers and movers/shakers in this creative project have picked up and left because of carelessness and neglect. I don't agree with your choices in the most recent matter. I think you should unban the people you banned. Really.

Ok. So that said, I see some people still trying. I see some people still caring. I see that there seems to be a process in place that you are following. I know these things take time. I have had a long cooldown period. I have not so recently been hurt that I can't engage at all. I have so many complicated feelings and memories about this game. But just for the good ones, one last time, let me give this a shot.

Part I - Broad Strokes

I am not going to give you feedback on what specifically to do in this part of my post. I think a lot of more recently informed people are doing a great job with that in this thread. Instead I want to speak from my own experience to give you systemic, foundational advice that I hope you will be able to adapt to your purposes to build something cleaner, more ethical, and less stressful for everyone. Because I don't know where you want to go with this online game thing anymore, but (and I am saying this as kindly as I can) you seem to be doing a godawful job of getting there.

I am speaking broadly and in an outline format, because this is a forum post, and I have limited space. I am trying not to sound like an idealistic know-it-all or like you can wave your hand and easily accomplish any of this. I know it is backbreakingly hard work to accomplish a successful restructuring of any kind, and that's without a massive P.R. issue on the table. 

That said, at this point in my life I do feel confident that these principles work in small community volunteer run spaces because I've used all these principles in various small community volunteer run spaces (not this one obviously.) I am also a senior live ops game designer at a mobile games studio and do community management consulting on the side if that matters. If anyone wants to dig deeper into any of these suggestions at some point with me, I am available to chat more. Otherwise, take what you want from this and leave the rest, it is offered in good faith. I hope something in here will be useful to somebody somewhere.

Analysis: At a basic level, Armageddon is a loosely structured, volunteer run, hobbyist organization. The staffing team operates in what seems to be a vaguely democratic but mostly individualistic way, with personal interests driving most actions. As hobbyists, your time is limited, and your bandwidth for large projects is low. To succeed/grow this project, you must have a better way of sorting out your priorities and cooperating with your collaborators. Everything I am suggesting below is written with that in mind.

What are your core values? You have no CEO, central visionary, or final-say type leader for this organization. As a result, team cohesion becomes a major stressor, and your userbase suffers because of it. Projects get dropped when someone loses interest or quits, plots fall apart when clan administration changes. This breeds bitterness, confusion, uncertainty, and resentment. You lack a north star to follow that will keep your project pointed in the same basic direction, even as the usual attrition and project failures continue, because they will. This is nobody's fault, because staffing (and playing) this game is nobody's job. Everyone can leave whenever they want.

I would like you to collectively discover your core values for this game, and work them into your documentation and staffing curriculum. As far as I know, Armageddon has no core values other than Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal, and those may be excellent values for a thrilling tale, but they are terrible values for a game community.

Core values are not rules. They are the story you are telling yourselves and the foundation on which you build your project. When you discover what they are, all future volunteers should be selected based on their understanding of and agreement with your core values. They should be trained in how best to uphold your core values as a volunteer. Your core values have nothing to do with gameplay or in-character behavior. They are used to guide your design choices, your roadmap, your projects, your ethics, and your interactions with your userbase/each other. As an example, your core values could be something like...

1. Story First - We strive to prioritize the narrative.
2. Time is Precious - We cannot do everything. We are here voluntarily. We respect our own energy and spend it wisely.
3. Top-Down Empathy - We treat everyone with civility, respect, and kindness, especially if they hold less power or have less knowledge than we do.
4. Radical Transparency - We answer questions honestly and completely. We show our work.
5. This is For Fun - Collectively created entertainment is why we are here.

They could also be something completely different. The above is only an example of some possibilities. I have no idea what you might come up with. Your core values could be about community growth or plot frequency or engineering priorities or worldbuilding or any old thing you like. But you should agree on them, they should be concise and easy to remember, and everyone should know what they are. You could have one core value. You could have one hundred. I would suggest at least three. I think ten is approaching too many.

Put them on the website. Put them in your helpfiles. Put them in your community spaces like this discussion forum and the discord. And then (this is the hard part) adhere to them, and keep on doing so until you collectively decide they no longer serve you. I recommend a yearly checkin.

Build better boundaries. There are a lot of feelings in passion projects. This is great and very important for a hobby, especially a collective one - it is what allows it to keep going. And people who go on to want to administrate these projects tend to be even more passionate about them in some way.

But the more passionate people are, the more likely disagreements are to crop up, and the more frustrated people have the potential to be. I strongly suggest you sort out a systemic way for people to back off when they need to and then opt back in when they want to, and have that system be honored and respected.

I don't know what this looks like. You need to discuss it. It could be a flagging system - users and volunteers can flag/unflag what + who they want to engage with and not engage with. I've seen a detailed consent system proposed, that's a great idea. It could be a "pause button" that lets players retire and then unretire their characters for a pre-determined amount of time. It could be a collectively greater willingness to pivot or collaborate on gameplay, or a willingness to let players share sponsored roles the way staff shares npcs. It could be building much greater fluidity in to staff assignments. It could be no-staff-saturdays or community-maintenance-mondays. Who knows. So many options! Whatever it is, have some kind of system in place to encourage/support people in politely stepping back, with others available to pick up the slack, whether that is on the player side or the volunteer side. You want to avoid burnout and resentment on all sides of the equation. The only thing any of us can truly control is ourselves. Lean in to that.

Collaborate more. I will be honest. It doesn't matter what your public image is or what you do/do not do re: marketing/advertising/user aquisition. It is extremely unlikely you will achieve much more meaningful growth for this game in its current form. The pool of players you have is not going to get much bigger or change much, and that's even if you had the best, most amazing team in the world running things here. The market for what you are doing is vanishingly small, and getting smaller. You are all probably well aware of this already, but I'm not sure how much strategizing you've done to make this fact work for you.

Because the good news is, the staff:player ratio you have is VERY narrow compared to a larger game. It's even small compared to most muds. I don't know what it is, but it has to be tiny. 1:5? 1:10? At my current studio, our staff:player ratio is something like 1:50,000. We can offer almost no personalized support or development, even though we're all being paid. There's just way too many people on one side of that equation.

You do not have this problem. A small ratio is fantastic from a community standpoint. It means that it is much, much easier to talk to each other, get to know each other, keep an eye on each other, and work together. I invite you to think of volunteers + players not as two opposing forces on either side of a wide chasm, but a group of people sitting in a big circle. I'm sorry, I know that is a very woo thing to say and will annoy people, but I'm serious.

With that mental image in place, consider extending more collaboration opportunities to the rest of the group. That doesn't mean more GDB polls or sponsored roles. That means sharing the load of running this game with your users instead of doing everything for them. I think over the past years you have been starting to do this with the builder system and inviting players to write documentation, etc. All excellent.

But I think you should go further. Maybe that means more player moderators (val had some really good ideas for moderation strategies in their post which would dovetail nicely w/ this.) Maybe you give some players the power to answer some requests or approve applications. Maybe you engineer more storytelling opportunities/abilities into sponsored roles or even regular roles. Maybe karma also comes with the ability to do limited room edits or load items. Smudge that line between what a volunteer is and what a player is until you're not sure it's even there. Turn this place into a collective instead of a hierarchy. It will help the players feel more empowered and help the overloaded volunteers stop white-knuckle driving this thing into the ground while letting egregious, monstrous violations of the rules slip past them. The way you've set the system up means that losing even one hyper-engaged person staff side is inconvenient, even if they're being huge gross dorks who deserve the boot.

I know this is my most drastic suggestion. It is hard to frontload this stuff and screen for bad actors. But it is my honest opinion that you need to change things about how collaboration in this game works on a fundamental level, based on your current numbers alone.

Part II - Fire Your Stalkers

This is the part of the post where I give you very targeted feedback.

If you have predatory creeps on your team, just get rid of them. That's it. That's the whole thing. Don't give them fancy nobles and let them keep going. A lot of other people in this thread have given you great advice about the specifics of how this should look already, so I have nothing else to say on that matter.

If you made it all the way to the end of this post I'm impressed. Thanks for reading.
Child, child, if you come to this doomed house, what is to save you?

A voice whispers, "Read the tales upon the walls."


  • Posts: 1660
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2023, 01:35:50 AM »
If you want feedback, look no further than the post above this, absorb all of it, beseech LauraMars for further assistance, and invite her to help coordinate and collaborate with the transition of Staff to this new version.

In my personal opinion, the Leader of the game left a long time ago, and that was Sanvean. We have been operating with pseudo-leaders for quite a while, and the cohesive vision of ArmageddonMUD has not been apparent for many years.

My personal suggestion: all Staff should voluntarily step back and resign, with exception to the Producers, until such a time that a cohesive game vision is proposed, approved of by the players, and a transparent hiring process that does not involve nepotism is also approved of by the players.

This game literally cannot go on until foundational aspects of how it is run, and why it is run, are adjusted and brought into the present from its original inception in the 90's.

Nessalin's retirement (god bless him) is a good thing. It is a finality to the 'Old Guard' that ran the game. This is an opportunity to move into the future, to update, to process, and to collaborate.

Or, it is time to close the doors and lock up.

I have been thoroughly unimpressed with all of Staff's response to this, both individually and as a "Governing Body" and most importantly, as caretakers for this hobby that many of us called very important to our formative lives.

That 'Some Staff Find our Policies to be just fine', and that it was felt necessary to say that, is stunning. Your policies are not fine. They need to be rewritten. Now. Not later, not in a month, not in a year.

Before any of you do anything at all in 'The Game', you need to not only work on yourselves, not 'on' the community, but 'with' the community. You are not our superiors. You are our peers, and we feel a betrayal of both trust and judgement.

Meet us on the level, on the square, or not at all.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant


  • Posts: 2791
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2023, 02:20:37 AM »
I had something written and LauraMars did it better. I support her post fully. It's an excellent blueprint.
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.


  • Posts: 2914
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2023, 09:15:20 AM »
When the shit hit the fan on whatever recent drama unfolded which is not being detailed here, I wasn't checking the GDB, and I am not on Discord. That blinds me from the details of the atrocities that may have been committed, or not, and therefore I am not going to post on that.

There have been some posts here which clearly do contain behind them the knowledge of some detail of what has happened; some of those posts are now moderated, which is creating a good, healthy reaction from others here to point out the apparent lack of transparency and the issues that raises.

The themes of the excellent posts made by LauraMars, Valeria, Synthesis, and others who shared their own RL experience with handling leadership dilemmas such as the ones being faced by Armageddon are the best summaries possible for a reasonable action plan to handle these issues going forward. Some more minute issues such as how the game plays, game balance issues, and so on, are not the intended focus of this discussion but the value of our new players cannot be understated, so when new players perceive barriers in how the game works mechanically, or want to better understand the reasons behind out IC/OOC divide rules and where they need to change, were also invaluable since they are also a part of our future if this game has one.

My own opinion of the situation is that there are three main topics in this discussion and so I'll place my thoughts under those categories as much as I can:

1.) Bitterness from players who are either banned, about to be banned, have been banned and are back, and the silencing of them: and feel or dread the sting of those interactions. This bitterness can make players difficult to interact with, both for other players and for staff. Bitterness has so far been addressed by instituting long term bans primarily, but the partial ban state of allowing someone to play the game but not allowing them to post with XYZ account on the GDB or discord is also something that I know happens, but I am unsure I see the healthiness of that avenue. I also know that bans don't work in the modern era and that with VPNs and whatnot you cannot silence any voices. Not to mention even closing this forum down didn't silence voices and won't; silence is not a policy that is sustainable for this community and the silence as a theme being toxic and reducing the viability of this game overall is a very important theme that other players have better thought-out solutions to. This is why, like many prior posters above, I'll give the following ideas:
- I support a notion of mass unbanning and re-opening of the community discussion, but also have the below ideas to prevent unwanted windfall:

- Put a delay timer on all GDB posts before it is visible to other forum users who aren't moderating. Yeah, it'll slow down the conversations a lot, but giving the active/online moderator about 30-60 minutes to review anything quickly before posting to ensure it doesn't violate the rules will be a failsafe to allowing people to have a voice again. Alternative version: You might want to consider this timer only be put on "restricted access accounts," because to have a voice and the freedom to express yourself at all is better than an attempt to ban someone and only end up worsening the problem that way or not even preventing it effectively to begin with.
- I like the idea of limiting our total post count in this thread, actually, and think that the over-representation of certain voices who post a lot or know how to quickly riposte and retort in post after post unfairly dominates a lot of our conversations. Maybe all accounts should be limited to a few posts per subforum or something, because well thought out ideas are better than emotionally charged personal attacks, and knowing that your ammo is finite will help all of us to cool our heads and better express ourselves. "You've just posted within the past 30 minutes; we encourage you to review any prior posts and edit them, but you can next post a new reply or thread in X minutes" might be how this combines with the above idea.
- At the very least, consider all of the above limitations in a strict form (such as a delay timer before visibility) especially in any subforum which is focused on the game's code, the gameplay, strategies to play, details of magick, or ongoing plots. Allow us a chance to discuss something that we know might be sensitive, without us being afraid of being banned for posting something against the rules; instead, just keep those "IC discussion, may be deleted" content types separate but still therefore encourage the opportunity to bring up stuff that borders on more IC or code-sensitive discussion.

2.) Staff power and staff playability (for being a player as a staff member) conflicting with the nature of "fairness" in the game: There have been a lot of specific suggestions of ways to better handle this, and I assume this means that the inciting atrocity that led to all of this revolves around staff being players in some way. In this vein there have been great ideas of limiting staff ability to be a player while being staff, but as a passionate roleplayer myself I don't think I see the practicality of handcuffing staff enjoyment. I do see the practicality of keeping staff out of power roles, but I also believe there must be a reason that power roles are restricted in the ways they are to be held by staff or certain players (likely, past "bad experiences" from players with too much power and staff as well), so I can't say I have the "right answer" of balance here. What clearly might help is if there were more transparency about who got certain roles or not and if not, why and how they might get those roles they want in the future. Overall, I think the ideas from posters above me are better able to handle these concerns, but I don't have answers to whether or not a request-tool driven communication system is best or if more transparency is always best or not; I think I'll leave it to the folks whose real experience with the game and in real life have given them more skills in managing group decisions, transparency and player communication. Ideas such as a player council or player representatives mediating conflict were most interesting to me but clearly there will need to be some knowledge gap still and that means this isn't "equal" power and isn't an equal playing field, but it'd be a step in the right direction. The establishment of core values moving ahead and how to address these issues more fairly is at odds with a lot of the old-guard values of this game, but the community now seems more open to change than ever in this regard so I am pretty sure we have a nearly unanimous agreement that it's time to try some new things.

3.) I really urge all players to read into this last comment most: Ya'll are playing a game that is about dwarves and bones and sand, and yet you're applying a very rigorous, educated set of ideas and aspirations for this game which should be, in the end, just a hobby, for all of us. There are lofty ambitions in the tone of a lot of posts that I know won't pan out because we all have real life jobs and families to think about to some degree, or more basically, we all need to better care for ourselves. I am not singling out anyone in this part; there really have been too many instances to count of players who cannot treat this game like a game, probably because incredibly complex and compelling and immersive stories are often told here and appear to matter for more than they are, but I don't believe that seeing Armageddon that way has ever done the game good. We all really need to remember this game is a text based roleplaying adventure, not a microcosm of the real world. That doesn't mean that the game is a place where abuse is okay, or that acts that count as harassment or other crimes are allowed here, no. It just means that a suspension of your own expectations in favor of a casual, positive, and mutually respectful game environment needs to dominate, and not the other way around.

In every way, the above statements also apply to staff and how they interact with players, but the increasing seriousness of the rhetoric to include issues of lawsuits and so on, is, definitively, the wrong way to feel about the game's positive-looking future. If someone really did have a personal affront that borders on criminal action taken against them, consult with a lawyer and see what they say. However, most of us are just trying to restore something we have a nostalgic fondness for here.

In that mindset, no, I do not want this game to die. Anyone who states or feels that they "want" the game to die, should really not be here discussing anything or playing it. If that's how you feel, then it's time for you to quit the game and move on to other hobbies; you've got many good options out there. That's the one case, those individuals who are seeking the end of the game or want the game to suffer or fall apart, where I agree with a "hardlining" staff opinion that it doesn't belong here; however, I still feel like those people should be allowed to post and speak their minds for the sake of the future improvement of the game if they want, since silencing them will not succeed in stopping their efforts, and will in fact only encourage them to keep trying.

Edited to add: After reading the decision about taking Shaloonsh off staff and announcing it, I think that sounds like a very good call, and I greatly appreciate the decision being announced also. Accountability is a good thing. Seeing that gave me a lot of hope that oversight does exist to help balance  the power dynamic of staff and player interactions.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 04:01:48 PM by Harmless »
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Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2023, 12:52:54 PM »
This is My Community:

I started playing in January of 2008. It's March of 2023. I've been playing for 15 years. In 2010-2011 I was a Storyteller. First overseeing Tuluk then overseeing Desert Elves for like two seconds. My husband's apparently been playing since like 2003 or maybe earlier. My descs formed all the soldiers in Tuluk at one point, and I believe the Sanctuary is still much as it was last time I put it in for a player.

I've played it on and off throughout these years and in 2017 had a hiatus for sexual related stuff with npcs as well. Honestly, I could care less about what happens organically IC with characters, but I should feel safe to know that no animations are going to take a sexual turn without my OOC pre consent. How can we minimize this? For the entire 15 years I have been playing, players have been asking for consent flags. Not to be impolite but instead of getting 5000 items rebalanced can we get consent flags? Please? Pretty please? After 15 years and public sex scandals? Something you can 'check lanky flags' 'oh shit they don't even want to get flirted with, and that's fine, some people have sexual trauma'. I don't think the answer is to take the option to participate in R+ rated content out of the game, I think the answer is to honor the feedback that the playerbase has been giving for a decade and a half on how to handle delicate content. This can even extend to stuff like having torture acted out if people wanted, I'd be into that, but definitely let's do consent flags.

This is Your Community:

It didn't go away during my hiatuses. It changed and went on without me, with the culture shifting and moving on. During the off periods, the first of which actually started with having <nonspecific staff> post a link mocking me on a feedback thread 11 years ago, 2 years after I had been on staff myself.

For almost ten years the game changed and went on with me as various random identities before I was invited to come back and assured that animations like the one that occured that led to me and my husband quitting for a while in 2017 couldn't happen anymore (that this was against the rules now), to hear the details of the way that a character billed as a resource pc was allowed to react without any sort of oversight toward someone they had real life history with, that the character was so deceptive conceptually and conceptually dishonest. That hurts. That hurts that this is what your community has come to. Worse still is the expectation that all of those on the top side knew everything. That's rarely how these things work. I imagine everyone in this situation feels gobsmacked and betrayed and like it's a little hard to breath and is trying to gather their thoughts. It's taken me days.

This is Our Community:

I've been on the Shadowboards when it was unpopular and here I am when it's unpopular. I have a habit of fighting for the little guy. And make no mistaking it, whatever the aim, the result of staff in this recent blowup scandal meeting it with a strict opaque line of silence and authoritarian 'letter rather than spirit' interpretation of things to silence discussion in official channels, unofficial channels will flourish.

Our community was deceived. Our community is hurting. Our community wants to reach out and has no idea how because they feel like they should have seen it if they can bring themselves to believe it. The whole community, guys. That's how this works. I had an uncle who I grew up in the house with. He turned out to be a criminally insane monster who tried to set his pregnant girlfriend on fire. MORE THAN ONCE it would turn out, some how. And I lived with him. I should have seen it coming, right? That's not how people like that work, man.

How Do We Make Things Better:

While logged in, be visible. Your avatars obviously aren't IC but there's legit no reason not to be visible if you want to be accountable. If you want it obvious when you're afk or busy, get chatgpt to help you write code to add the tag to the who list wherever that would go. 'Oh but if I'm in the room'. That's the 'at' command, yo.

Auto flag accounts at 6 months, 12 months, 18 months with karma. If someone proves to be breaking the game with an option you can take it away. No staff trust. I'm sorry. That's authoritarian as shit. That allows both favortism and grudges. Let's make this fair for everyone and take away the toys they abuse rather than refuse to give them toys. It's our community. It's everyone's sandbox, no?

Everyone's supposed to get the same amount of staff support, looking at staff numbers versus (now) player numbers, I think maybe let everyone have one 'story action' each month, as like, a measure of how far and much they can advance plots (leaders maybe get bonus ones), and I am using custom crafting as a measure here. Maybe you get a room changed, maybe you are getting an item made, maybe you are getting some custom ritual tattoo. Each of these is something that could be done relatively briefly but would make an amazing difference for players knowing they could pursue it.

Now, this is unorthodox but hear me out: Open up all the Allanaki Noble Houses. Open up Nenyuk. Open up House housing through Nenyuk for players again. It already exists. It's rad. It's a big special thing walled off from players. If they're going to control things, let them be something that the other players can work against or sway to their side. Make all GMH and Noble House special roles open, but by Role Application only. So you have to work out the details with staff beforehand. Get set up with pensions, clanning, jobs, board access and a bedroom. 5 items relevant to the role can be chosen during back and forth.

There is a strange light in the sky and it proves to be a stone. No one knows why but it makes elves 10+% (of their range) stronger (and half-elves 5%). The effect carries forward as an effect of the stone existing. Someone told me about an elf of theirs that could not hold a bottle. In a world that's so rough everything evolved psionics too, I imagine that evolution would beg for humanoids to at least be strong enough to hold a bottle as an adult. Because that would have to weigh less than a three to five year old child of their species. Which any able bodied adult ought to be able to hold.

You want to see players flood cities, let everyone play the noble and GMH pc at once that they've wanted to make. Hell. Give all their GMH family pcs a choice of one specific skill that can be branched. Literally give one player the ability to point at the room with the crap in it in Luir's and clean that up in a month. Same with the front of the bar. This isn't... I mean, players need to be empowered here. Also, don't cap clans in this or cap them at 10 or something HIGH. Because if you get, say, six Tor pcs, you could have them jockeying for rank teaching at the Academy, and, work between Borsail and Salarr.

Final Thoughts:

There's also an ugly double standard with the iron curtain about 'just players' culturally, that it's hard to actually perceive if you haven't been on the staff of another MU*. Just 100%. From the 'we are volunteers' culture, to the iron curtain, to the insistence that players not discuss IC information with one another but doing so freely staffside. Now, it's fine if the player doesn't wish to discuss things, but the expectation that players be held to a lesser standard than staff is not super duper duper cool. But getting rid of sponsored roles (not entirely, I'm sure there can be specific story pcs staff want) and allowing everyone to app in with caps would encourage city everything to flourish I feel. There is an expectation that players not talk about IC events where staff do, knowing full well that players do. And the Find Out IC culture has led to so much advantage for vets, just, generally. I love the analyze change for its work in leveling the playing field in one aspect. How can we extend this to others?


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Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2023, 02:39:09 PM »
A) Drop the iron curtain IC/OOC
 - I have plenty to add, perhaps later, but others have made points.
B) Player Union
 - This is a community.
C) Hire staff on 6 month contracts
 - Firing someone can be high stress and confrontational, but as a high volume event staffer I've only had to do it a few times due to the contract nature of the industry (experiential event marketing) I am typically able to just...not rehire people for the next contract. Obviously there are situations that can rise to immediate removal/firing, but when there is a set end to a contract, non renewal can be non confrontational, while retaining the staff's morale and inspiring them to improve. It can organically freshen up staff members and give them breaks before pulling them back into another contract. Staff roles could be role calls rather than permanent.
D) Hold authority (staff) to higher standards than those with less power (players)
 - To me this seems simple, but it is not the way things are done in our general society when anyone gets any ounce of power.
 - It would mean a lot to me to see additional effort here.
 - It's also incredibly challenging...especially for all of us folk who are so invested hyperfocused.
D) Remove Staff Anonymity
 - When "Someone" or "a staff member" sends you any communication staff become monolithic and indistinguishable.
E) More Transparency
E) Assign someone or helpers for optional Debriefs
 - After a pk, being pked, or losing a character, it could be helpful.
 - I'm still resentful about the way I was treated by both players and an ex staff member almost six months ago. It's all in reports and I didn't behave my best either (which is fuel for the resentment) and I still feel on can see it in the way I respond and write. It was awhile back and I've made some adjustments, and it would still be nice to talk about it, but it's less than a year....
 - This could be staff or a player. They don't have to do anything or give any resolution...just "yeah...I hear you...that sucks...yeah...well...I'm not going to do anything for you, but I heard you" can be huge.
F) Consider discouraging and softly banning ERP
 - It's not that sex, sexual language, or kinks are bad, but our society is so sexually charged and focused that it is a much bigger deal than any other forum of harassment.
 - Hearing about a player using stealth and other code to voyeur ERP scenes made me and other players feel dirty and uncomfortable enough to challenge it, despite neither of us being involved in said scenes.
 - I'd say "this doesn't affect me" because I don't erp, but I might be more inclined to allow my characters to develop a romantic relationship with another character if ERP was outside the norm instead of possibly expected.
 - This could even be done canonically if Zalanthians decide that sex is gross or are only procreated magicaklly (yes, now you need your local templars magick to have children)   or ... whatever other reasoning.
"It's like some of us want to watch Xena and invite our kids to play in this hobby, others want to watch Game of Thrones, and somehow someone took over and Caligula is everywhere blurring consent."

G) (code) Mudmail
 - Huge playability increase, more likely to rengage with rp and with other characters, less ooc to ic confusion about logged in vs logged out
 - Virtually everyone has psionics
 - Yeah I can't wayy my boss or my partner because um uh let me tell you an IC reason that means something OOC. My boss 'rests' a lot.
 - Offpeak players can engage more
 - - Rumor boards should be accessible offfline or though the mud system without logging into the room. I'm sure some bored drunk in Luirs is wayying his buddy in Red Storm...they're the ones repeating all the rumors anyways because they sit in the tavern all day long...they're an npc!
 - - Nearly rambling here but I just think that psiconics being so prevalent should have more effects on public information.
H) (code) Expanded death scenes beyond the BEEP
 - This has also been previously discussed and while is not as critical for the community relations it could soften the blow and allow for better endgame scenes. When the game BEEPs at you, and you don't know why as a player it's a very anticlimactic end to an invested story. Some adjustment of that may alleviate a lot of situations.
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Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2023, 07:25:26 PM »
I did not want to contribute to this thread since I prefer to avoid OOC chat and drama threads. I prefer to stick to chatting about code, balance and mechanics of the game.

I will say that the game's code changes have made me willing to make time to play this game again. Mostly because while I think the changes to some mechanics have been good, the balance is still off and wish to do some testing in order to provide better feedback.

As for this bit of drama in the last couple weeks, I would recommend the staff avoid making any sweeping changes to too many staff/game policies. I am sorry but the staff and the community are really bad at balancing and at times tend to swing hard from one direction to another which tends to have unintended consequences.  Do things with moderation.

Other than that, I will make four more points:

1. I have mention for a number of years now that I believe that the design and policies of the game should shift to provide players with more ingame information if its something their class or character would reasonable know or find out. Outside or historical lore or plots points, the need to work with staff to acquire information that your character/class should know or wants to learn is detrimental for the game because it breeds the potential for favoritism. Secret recipes, secret locations, even the names of plants, or information resources or poisons that have been are bad for the game because it gives certain people unfair opportunity in situations where they have a connection to a staff member that favors someone. This information could open up in the same way as mage players having access to a mage only helpfiles on spells they know. Every class should probably have their own unique knowledge/helpfiles that opens up to them if certain conditions are met(eg. such as they enter a room or they pick something up). While we have been moving in this direction, we need to continue to do more in order to avoid instances of favoritism in the game.

Additionally needs to be more rules, policies and scrutiny around how staff awards and grants a character spells, abilities or something else. This is so the process of why one character is getting something while another one isn't is more transparent and fair, and has no involvement in whatever relationship a player has with a specific staff member whether good or bad.

2. For staff I would recommend the following changes:
  • Staff anonymity when talking to people in game should go away. It has painted all staff with the same coat of paint for the bad behavior of a few people.
  • Staff should no longer animate NPC or play high ranking roles with any sort of sexual content. Everyone is okay with it, until they are not, but its staff who are often caught with their pants down, and it hasn't been a pretty sight. If a staff member wants to mud sex, roll a dusty grebber, grind and go wild, but high ranking roles you created for plot or with any sort of IC/OOC advantage should be free of sexual content, no matter how cool the players might with it when you chatted with them in private messages.   

3. For the staff and players in the community in general: Though there is no sexism or homophobia or racism based on skin color this isn't not a lighthearted liberal fantasy game world. There are many themes which are dark, gritty and may be offensive to some. That said, over the years the game has made many concessions and changes to make sure certain themes are more glossed over to make the gameplay a little more culturally appropriate and easier to play for some unfortunately people.  I don't disagree with any of those changes.

However, as players we are asked to leave our RL world biases at the door when we play. However, I feel that some people cannot really leave their RL trauma at the door nor can they separate themselves from the character. A world that glorifies the brutal butchering of a different sentient race than you in an arena is probably not great for their mental health.  The staff and community should be more vocal and honest that this game's themes is not suited for everyone, and at some point someone is better off leaving and trying something else rather than sticking around and becoming bitter or hostile.

4. Finally, the staff and community should not be involved in the toxic aftermath of a divorced couple. There have been some OOC allegations which I feel should probably be going to court either with charges or as a lawsuit. But regardless, we as a gaming community should have not been subjected to that negative damaging information. This is a separate issue to the misbehavior of a staff member which has already been appropriated dealt with by them no longer being in staff. There are some people who are clearly OOCly angry beyond this one issue and their posts ooze both hostility and negativity.  Their posts, rants and behavior really undermine and misrepresent the effort many people have put in this game to improve the overall experience. These people are also not good for the game in the short or long term and should also be permanently banned.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 10:46:34 AM by Dresan »
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Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2023, 10:58:02 PM »
Alright having some time to marinate on what went down and all the info that was dumped on various folks and their misdeeds I finally feel comfortable posting in this thread.

So this may come off sorta wishywashy and I'm sorry but it's the best way I can describe how I feel about the situation as a whole.

So one side of the coin, I'm like I'm sure a lot of people, shocked that this extent of bullshit happened and nobody did anything till it got whistleblown on.  I truthfully have had trouble logging in over my feelings of it, and that's saying something because for the most part I'm a pretty, I don't give a fuck about anything, type of guy.  So if something gives me pause like this, it's normally a big deal to crack the armor a bit.

That said, on the other side of the coin, I've been reading some of what others are recommending and there is good shit in here, lots of good ideas and recommendations, but I'm also a realist and tend to be less optimistic than the next guy.  A lot of what is being recommended just lives in lands of "Hopes and Prayers" if you get my meaning, the type of people who think that well intention and rainbows will actually bind something to be what they want it to be.  All the talk of a player advocate and all that is just masturbatory even if staff makes it a thing because the only way that could work is if they have the power to remove people from staff, ban players and staff and all that.  Essentially the highest level staff position and that currently as I understand it lies on Halaster's shoulders because of Nessilin calling it quits. (I could be wrong, I never much understood the difference between a producer, administrator and all that bullshit.)

Now, what I feel could be helpful and increase transparency is to have staff complaints be public, on the forum, maybe not show WHO it was, make the poster anonymous from everyone else unless they choose to identify.  For Example:

(Fictitious Scenario)
Halaster has been PMing me on the boards asking for me to go out with him.  I've declined him twice because he's not my type (A man lol).  I finally decide to post a complaint.

In the staff complaints thread:

Halaster has been messaging me inappropriate things and asking me out despite me telling him three times I'm not interested, see screenshots of my PMs/instant messages etc etc.

(End scene)

Now, it's common knowledge that Halaster has been accused of being a creep, staff can still investigate and do what they do, but it can't be brushed under the rug like it just was for years.  It will force accountability because if a bunch of people start posting about it happening to them and providing proof of it like she did, it will demand action against pervy McPerv over there.

(Sorry Halaster, you're just the only staff that came to mind, he's never done anything inappropriate to me, well except deny my unbanning from discord but small thing.)

Now while the players still can't force an outcome or action in that scenario, at least it's WIDE OPEN that it allegedly happened and hopefully corrective action will be taken to avoid the shitfest like just happened here and with the shadowboard.

As others said too, there should be a whistleblower rule, that overrides the rest of them.  Say you share bit of IC info within a year to point out some wrong, you shouldn't be banned for breaking one rule while reporting someone for something, they should be allowed to provide their proof without fear of banning.  Like say a player of a Templar is constantly failing to obtain consent when he bumps uglies and I'm his soldier, I should feel fine complaining about it without fear I'm gonna get stored or banned for shining a light on Lord Templar Larry Laffer (Probably nobody is gonna get that reference).

I do agree that "Resource PCs" should never be a thing.  If you really want people to have ownership in the various clans and organizations that exist within the game, allow the players to take ownership of them.  The glass ceiling literally shouldn't be a thing.  If Amos the Bynner is alive and in the Byn for seven real life years, he shouldn't be stuck as a LT, he should be able to make game changing decisions, good or bad because he's earned it.  I don't like the idea that I could play some clan and have a random staffer jump into a role they aren't committed to and just do things.  There is a distinct difference of playing a character you're invested in and just putting on a roleplay costume for a day or two.

Find out IC being slapped in new player's faces... While I accept that it's a thing they should look into in character, there are better ways to say that, recommendations of what to do, who to ask where to look.  I started WAY back in the day when it was much more prevalent than it is now, and I remember asking a shitload of honest questions for things that frustrated me and getting Find out IC, Get good newb and all sorts of response that did nothing but sour me on reaching out for help.  That needs to change as well.  It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

There a lot more I'd love to say and easily could, but I don't want to take away from the focus, for years we have been striving to get the trust of staff, to gain whatever Karma or sponsored role we want.  But right now I think it's time for the staff to earn our trust and get some Karma from us, because if what just happened showed us anything, they have not earned it.  Either through favoritism, protection of their fellow staff or straight negligence, they've let this happen.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 11:00:37 PM by Pariah »
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Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2023, 03:14:46 AM »
Hello staff and everyone. I have been away from Armageddon for quite some time. For those who don’t know me, I started playing in 2004 and have had two fun but brief-ish stints as a Storyteller around 2008-2009 and 2016-2018 or thereabouts. I bring this up just to put my feedback in context.

When I heard about this whole situation and saw this thread, I thought I might suggest some changes based on takeaways I had from my time here. Sadly, it seems like these kinds of community issues are almost as old as Armageddon itself. Since it has been a while since I played, I won’t try to offer many specific changes but I might recommend some broad strategic changes in the game itself. Some of the below are thoughts I have had for years which have prevented me from returning to invest more time in the game and others are brought on by the recent events.

First and foremost is this: what’s the vision here that the community should look to? Does Armageddon want to be a “game” based on character progression, or a community based around storytelling with RPG elements? Can it be both? It has always straddled the line and created community friction because, in my view, there has never been a clear direction around how conflicts are resolved between people who want to tell engaging stories around murder, corruption and betrayal, and people who want to “win” by killing the most and having the best stats. So many promising stories and characters are cut short in incredibly frustrating ways, and that breeds resentment and dissatisfaction among the player base. If you want to be a text based roguelike with RP elements, lean into that. If you want to be story focused, do more to shift the code into a supporting role. The current model seems to be a hard one to manage.

My own recommendation is to lean into the story elements. In 2023, there seems to be limited appeal to an action-driven text based game, but plenty of ways roleplaying and cooperative/competitive storytelling could still thrive in the medium. This might mean rethinking how stats, skills, and even character death work from the ground up. Perhaps a simple mantra might be to “make every death a ‘good’ death” and eliminate aspects of the game that get in the way of that.

Whatever the direction for evolution is, I think it’s important to set out a model for the game to evolve in to and be transparent about it. Your vision will shape the game community and the players you attract and retain. The mechanics at the core of the game drive how characters interact and how satisfying those interactions are to the players.

Secondly, shift the game community itself toward one that can harmonize rather than be inherently divisive. LauraMars had great things to say on this front and I endorse what she wrote entirely. The staff side, at least when I last experienced it, was very hierarchical, and there was a large, intentional divide between “staff” who have all the power to build and shape the world and be in the know, and “players”, who don’t. Try to flatten that hierarchy. The role of “staff” ought to be to keep the game stable, create the tools used to shape the world, define the guardrails on how those tools are used, organize administrative functions, and shepherd the community toward collaboration and fun. I would make the Storyteller role something just about any player can step in to and out of once they’ve got the hang of the game. I would also get rid of role calls and allow free applications for just about all the family roles. Get staff out of the business of determining what players are “allowed” to play as much as you can, and get them in the business of ensuring the players are having and creating fun when they play.

Thirdly, examine the role secrecy plays in the game and if it is worth the cost of policing and infighting it creates. The “wow moments” when you see a mage or psionicist do something cool for the first time can be exciting, but they can also be confusing and they’re only new once. The really cool potential in Armageddon comes from seeing HOW powers are used in creative ways by talented players, not WHAT the powers are. In my opinion, secrecy is better deployed around plot points that can be revealed (Templar Amos’ slave is really his daughter!) versus game mechanics like trying to hide how exactly Professor X can melt your brain or where to find crimson red dye in the wild. If you do this correctly there should be very little need for divisive “shadow board” elements in the community, which will help bring everyone back together.

So, to sum up: if you remove the strong staff hierarchy, you have reduced a major source of player/staff and staff/staff conflict and hopefully democratized storytelling. If you remove the overemphasis on game secrets, you have reduced the amount of player policing staff must do. And if you set a clearer vision for the role of game mechanics versus story, you have laid out the model for how players and staff should approach the game. What’s left to do is my final point:

Set out clear and incontrovertible rules for community conduct toward one another. Enforce them vigorously on everyone, players and staff included. Make it clear that harassment, belittling, baiting, bullying and any kind of creepy or stalky activity are not tolerated. The best people for the job of policing are often not the ones who have been around longest, nor are they typically coders, nor are they always the best roleplayers or builders. In the past, those roles are how people have landed on staff and then been saddled with moderation duties in addition to their strengths.

I would recommend determining which individuals in the community have a reputation for fairness and perhaps personal experience in community management, and putting those people in the roles of moderator with no other staff responsibilities. The  ability to muzzle or eject someone from the community is a great power and immensely important responsibility in its own right and should probably be separate from all other staffing functions. Those decisions should also be made as transparently as possible and in an auditable way.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk on improving Armageddon. I’d be happy to chat on Discord if anyone would like more elaboration after reading all this.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 08:32:55 AM by Rahnevyn »
Quote from: Rock
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  • Posts: 265
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2023, 09:07:48 AM »
I've been in and out of this community since 99 and I'm only posting this by request from a friend so I'll keep this short.

To me coming back to Arm would take one thing reconciliation. Something I have found that Arm staff have little to no desire to partake in from what I've seen.

I've felt over the years wronged in many ways (perhaps real or perceived who knows), and I've always shared that at Jcarters boards and in videos I've made. Out of all of the ideas here Veselka's resonates with me the most, completely redoing your staff team is what I feel would help Arm the most right now.

It's not a good look that you don't ever communicate outside of 3 places: gdb, discord, and request tool. This makes it seem like you just want control of what is said and perhaps that is not true but perception is important and there is plenty of evidence proving otherwise. Ignoring Jcarters boards for so long was a mistake and going over there would show solidarity and a desire to reconcile with a lot of players there. Regardless if you can "win" them back, that is irrelevant, closing old wounds can help people.

That's all, 've had so much fun at this game and I do hope it gets past this.


  • Posts: 333
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2023, 12:56:35 PM »
Hey players, hey staff.

I've made my viewpoints and such especially clear in many places but here really. There's a few particular mentalities both on player-side and staffside that I feel need to change or be more self realized. It helps nobody in the community to ignore the various situations at hand and continue on as though nothing major has happened within your unaffected bubble, everyone who plays the game is at least affected by the diminishing player counts happening as a result of the drama.

From the staff-side perspective, I feel like the "rules are rules" mentality that exists whenever situations like these arise in a system that is honestly broken and rife with abuse throughout the years really has to go, just get rid of it. When people feel the need to go outside of the recommended or normal channels within the system to tell their story and out cheating or abuse within the game, they should not have to fear immediate retaliation in the form of karma docking, bans, victim-blaming or insults on the part of staff. They've done you a favor from their perspective, they've spoken out when the broken and abused system ultimately did not allow a proper reconciliation of events to occur. While action should take place, it should be investigatory in nature. You do not have to immediately ban someone from the game when they out a staff avatar, when they've done it for legitimate and justified reasons. There should be reaching out. Within this situation, has there been a singular staffer who reached out to the ones who allege the allegations and ask them to rescind/redact the more "personal" information that was "ban worthy" in the first place, to clip their posts and go through more official channels so the situation could be properly handled instead of being allowed to explode?

When situations like this happen, in public, there should be a process. Instead of being banned the player should face their account possibly being on "hold" while things are being investigated, when they've broken a rule worth a ban in the process of outting staff-side abuse/cheating, and if staff has been found of wrongdoing like they have been here, the people who had outted the cheating and abuse in the first place should face absolutely zero-or-minimal punishment or retaliation for doing so. In retaliating, all you do is further open the system up for someone to further be abusive, stifle voices that would otherwise report through the proper channels, and burn bridges with people who otherwise feel like they're doing what's necessary to stop a cycle of abuse that warranted coming out into the public eye in the first place. Rules aren't just rules when staff hide behind them to punish players and perpetuate abuse. In my opinion, these people should not have to go through an appeals process for their bans, they should be automatically lifted, or for more "egregious" breaks in the rules, should be a temporary ban.

After much of the initial outcry and outrage where people had been hopeful and looking to the situation with a more fresh perspective found their hopes dashed when overzealous moderation took place in the aftermath. Just don't do this. Don't overmoderate. Don't moderate just the people who have understandable outrage over situations like this while letting the toxicity of people who "bootlick" thrive. It undermines every action you take, and just further fuels outrage. Half of this outrage would not have even happened if staff were not overzealous in moderating people. I don't think as a suggestion this one is hard to follow, and if it is, reconsider letting certain staff members have access to moderation tools.

When the players are self moderating a bad faith actor and politely asking them to stop until they become frustrated, punish the bad faith actor for continuing to escalate. Even after being moderated some of these people keep escalating while arguing in bad faith about tangential topics, it's not helpful and is just a method to frustrate others; it should be moderated appropriately. Much of the toxicity I've seen in the discord and on the forum has been directed towards the victims and the original person who made the allegations, when more reasonable people have been trying to discuss things seriously or tiptoe around the conversation, and then said their bit with minimal moderation in the moment before other staffers step in while other staff are in the conversation refusing to moderate vitriolic accusations on their side. It makes the biases of certain staff pretty apparent, it's just lazy, or it's bad social awareness. It's not fair to the people trying to have serious conversations about the issues. Moderate fairly.

Many of my other points I would otherwise have were taken up by people who've said it alot better than me. Hold staffers who abuse their position accountable, the first time, and don't give them a graceful exit. Have better transparency.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 01:03:25 PM by betweenford »


  • Posts: 750
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2023, 12:21:06 AM »
My own feedback:

I think Staff are jumping through a series of hoops that will not ever end - and I implore them to stop.

I think there are people out there who want nothing more than to air their grievances - and yes, many of them are probably real grievances - over and over, and over, regardless of what is done or how many apologies are given.

I think that many of these people are the same ones who I have seen dozens of times say they no longer give a fuck, hate the staff, hate the players, hate the game but still pop in, over and over, to stir up shit and probably sit back and cackle when they succeed.

If someone in the game is violating the rules in the game - discipline them for violating the rules. If someone is being an utter jackass outside of the game - that isn't the game's problem, nor should staff be required to eat shit over it. I agree with a post made earlier in one of these threads - this isn't about transparency. It's about "woke culture" individuals trying to exert control over something that is frankly beyond their control.

I think that there will always be things in life that people don't like seeing, hearing, reading, tasting, smelling, etc.

In life, sometimes you just have to either remove yourself from the situation or deal with it. But it seems to me that here, in this game, people feel that instead of either a) doing something about it IC or b) simply not playing if it bothers you that much, they would rather see it moderated into the dirt.

I think Staff should realize that no matter what is done, someone is going to be unhappy. You have rules in place that have served the game, more or less, for a couple of decades. Enforce them, follow them yourselves, and forget about those who are always going to demand more. It is not your responsibility to provide a safe space for every damaged human being. Stop apologizing. Because every apology, no matter how heartfelt, is just going to make the same people demand more.

Finally, with regard to those demands that staff never play any sort of sponsored role - I disagree completely. Clearly, being a staff member is a lot of work and involves eating a lot of shit as has been proven. To suggest they should do all of this and be severely restricted on what they play as well? Ridiculous.

You want to play something that will add to the game overall? I support it 100%, provided players have the same level of opportunity and are not excluded because staff wants to play.

I am not part of the so-called "boys club" or really any Armageddon club at all - I have never met a single Armageddon player outside the game, and I could count on one hand how many I ever talk to OOC via Discord and still have fingers left over. I have not been, and probably never will be Staff (why on earth would I want to, with how horribly some of these players seem to treat volunteers).

And I have NEVER been punished without having screwed up first (and I've been punished plenty in over 15 years of playing this game). I have NEVER been declined an opportunity to play something that I applied for, provided I put enough energy and effort into it, there was a spot available, and I was seen as the best one for the job. And I have never been treated with disrespect save one instance that was a clear misunderstanding.

Why? Because I give respect. And I don't lurk about, waiting for something to be pissed off about.


  • Posts: 6
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2023, 09:08:34 PM »
Hi I'm posting because I'm thinking of playing. I was belligerently banned by one of the staffers who has recently been disciplined. Feedback:
- the resignation / demotion recognizes some malfeasance on the part of these staffers, but I understand why those more egregiously hurt than me want a clear statement condemning the wrongdoing by these staffers.
- we should have mass ban amnesty, or amnesty for those banned by the disciplined staffers, or a clear process for contesting past bans.
- stop banning people for OOC communication on the forums/discord. Mute people instead, and do this sparingly and in a fair manner.
- while I am relieved that a staffer who gave me a whole lot of shit is gone, it's hard to feel good about playing this game again when Bebop was banned for speaking up. It doesn't indicate a cultural shift. I will avoid excessively politicized terms like "victim blaming," but this situation seems glaringly unfair when compared to how similar disputes are handled in workplaces and other organizations.

I've played this game on and off for years, I am not a woke SJW snowflake, nor am I a misanthropic anti-woke curmudgeon. I believe that respect goes both ways and there is still more staff can do to show respect to players. Players also need to show more respect to each other, but shouldn't be moderated as much, because for years the moderation has unfairly punished some players more than others.

Every time I've checked on Armageddon for the past decade, I immediately find players being nasty to each other, staff and players being nasty to each other, and a few people being thrown on the gibbet while other equally guilty people laugh at their execution. The recent drama is exactly the same. Is it any wonder our player-base has been shrinking.

TLDR: more freeness and fairness.


  • Posts: 1227
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2023, 11:35:16 PM »
I've also recently come back to the game after a significant absence, and many of my opinions have already been put forth in eloquent fashion and because of those things I was hesitant to post in this thread.  However, I refuse to have the above post be the last word from the playerbase on this matter. [EDIT: someone beat me to the punch while I was writing this hugely long post so this sentiment is not aimed at them, but my point still stands.]  This is because I want to believe that the views held in that post are not prevelant amongst the players of Armageddon.  They are precisely the views that would once again lead us to the exact situation the community faces now.  If I’m wrong, and those views are in fact common, then this is not the place I want to spend further time on, despite having spent a significant portion of my life here, since the very earliest days.

Being that I’m on the soapbox now, I will reiterate some things that have already been pointed out and proposed that I think are important, but will add some of my own thoughts, as well as some proposals that go further than what have been already suggested.

I’d like to start by saying that I don't recall having any particularly negative experiences with staff during the years I’ve played - they’ve been neutral or positive instead.  I say this with the caveat that while the vast majority of my time has been in clanned roles with some leadership roles, I also have often been an off-peak player, which may or may not have reduced my interactions with staff.  I suspect I often just didn't have the ability to be involved in ongoing plots or to create or drive new ones due to my playtimes, and maybe I just didn't encounter staff interacting with me as much as they would have with others because of that as well.  I've also purposefully avoided interacting with both players and staff outside the game, which may have insulated me further from Bad Things Happening.  Regardless, I've always had respect for the fully voluntary time and work that staff put in.

Before I came back to the game, I had I randomly decided to browse the GDB one day, and the reason why I decided to start playing again was seeing the recent thread by the staff specifically inviting players to provide their thoughts and input on the game (the, "what would get you to play in the cities again" thread), and a recent addition in reponse to a long standing player gripe and request (spec app boosted start characters, both skillwise to avoid grind, and clan positionwise to avoid tedium).  I saw these as evidence of positive developments in terms of staff culture and direction of the game as a whole.

Then there was the staffing changes post, and the whole GDB being shut down for a couple days - like another poster mentioned, I don't believe I've ever seen that happen before.  Reading through the replies in this thread and the other newer non-returning player one, it's obvious something very significant has happened, but I think like most everyone else, I can only guess as to what that is.  There have been very serious allegations mentioned, and if there is any truth to them, they are both horrifying and troubling.  This is all very alarming, and has put serious doubts in my mind about returning to the game and where I thought the culture of the game was.

So, that said - what changes would I personally like to see?


Players have always been separated from the staff by a veil of secrecy.  There were the periodic player-staff meetings, where players were invited to ask questions of staff in a town hall style conversation, there were always discussion threads on the GDB, and sometimes staff would chime in on things giving some insight as to their thoughts and the direction of the game, but generally staff and what they do has always been essentially a black box otherwise.  Unless you were staff or former staff yourself or one of them spilled the beans to a player, only those people knew what was really going on behind the scenes.  This applied to the direction, content and the day to day operation of the game world, player moderation, staff moderation, staff appointments, etc.  There's a ton of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that players aren't privvy to.  Traditionally, the argument for this purposeful obscuring of all of this was that if this information was open to everyone, it would be open to being abused and could ruin ongoing or future plots and the hard work the staff puts into fostering them, it might affect staff/player interactions and open people to being targetted unfairly, etc etc. 

It's always been my view however, that any group that is in a position requiring trust will have a difficult time earning and keeping that trust if there isn't sufficient transparency as to how they operate.  This applies very much to the current situation and overall for Arm in general.  Radical Transparency was put forth as a general idea by Valeria.  While I think the suggestions that have already been put out about this are good, I'd like to reiterate some because of how important I think transparency is, and provide some of my own thoughts on them:

1. Staff rules and policies should be open to all to see.  Appointments/demotions/dismissals/changes to the game and world and the reasons behind them should also similarly be publicly posted.  The players should be invited to comment and discuss all of this as well.

2. Everyone should know who is playing each PC, including, but especially if a staff member is playing a PC.  As has been mentioned, clanned players already have this transparency.  The 1 year talk rule could still be left in place that prohibits players from active collusion and potentially affecting ongoing storylines.  The classic argument against this is that it opens the door to easier player collusion or unfair targetting/abuse, revenge PK'ing, etc.  But I think we all know this already happens to some extent.  It's simply impossible to avoid.  I really wonder - for a long-lived PC that has pissed off a player, how often are there instances that the aggrieved player actually turns around and go after them with a revenge PC?  Those that partake in this sort of thing already aren't going to stop if everyone knows who's playing who, and those that don't, won't suddenly start.  Staff would continue, as they always have, to police things as best they can.  This would also prevent incorrect maligning - where someone assumes incorrectly that they know who the POF a PC is, and acts in an inappropriate manner towards a totally innocent player.  Importantly, it would also reveal who might be acting in an inappropriate manner toward you.  It might even help prevent problematic instances from occurring in the first place, since players have their reputation openly on the line if they try.

3. I would go further here and agree with Badskeelz that staff shouldn't be playing a PC at all while they are staff.  While I recognize that staff being former players obviously enjoy playing as well and that this might make it harder to find new staffing volunteers, I feel allowing this is too easily abusable and has real potential for conflict of interest.  Even if there is extra oversight on staff avatars to prevent Bad Things from Happening, it at minimum creates the perception in the playerbase that abuse could occur which breeds distrust and resentment.  As others have mentioned, TTRPG DM's don't generally play PC's in their own games for similar reasons, but that their joy comes from running the game as a whole, where they can shape and inhabit an infinite number of entities within it to direct and interact with their players in telling their stories.  To mitigate the potential problem re: staff recruitment, staff that have current PC's could be offered storage/unstorage options when they join or leave staff, and if their current PC has aged out, a similar replacement substitute could be provided to them when they leave.  A point was brought up about staff being able to play is valuable for game coding/design, but beyond the fact that presumably staff can already see everything players do (and can further invite direct feedback from them) there seems to already be a test server where things can be tested.

4. Punishment of any sort should be publicly posted but importantly also explained, whether it is imposed on a player or staff.  It was mentioned by Moonlit that this would lead to dogpiling - I disagree that would be the case, at least any more than already occurs.  I believe players (and staff) over the years have found plenty of reason to do that on their own without this kind of transparency already, but instead of doing that based on facts, they do so based on conjecture and assumption, which is much worse.

5. There needs to be a transparent complaint and appeals process available for both players and staff regarding both problematic situations and any punishments issued.  If preferable to a player (or staff!) there needs to be an avenue for someone to make a confidential complaint instead to some sort of trusted player representative, rather than a staff member (or staff as a whole), and then that representative will advocate on their behalf.  It’s crucial that whistleblowers not be antagonized, unless incontrivertible evidence is found that they have fabricated their claims.  Anyone that has been banned in the past should have access to this process as well.  In western societies, courts are typically public, and anyone can attend a hearing.  Court records are also public, and searchable by anyone.  There are very good reasons for this - both to ensure that people obtain a fair shake under the law, and to enable the institutions themselves to be held accountable.  I wonder if this was available for this current situation and whatever occurred historically that was associated with it, would we be here now?  The fact that we still don’t know what really happened, despite the entire community being affected is problematic, and I wonder if that in itself has turned away players and/or returnees.  This will lead into my next topic of discussion.

Oversight and Good Governance

Synthesis mentioned the problem of the bad actor coming into power.  It is certainly a difficult problem, but I do believe the problem can be potentially mitigated.  If putting in some measures might  help, I think it's worth the effort - modern day western societies have many such structural institutions in place which while certainly not foolproof, may help to keep the problem at bay.  As an example, there is great distrust and even outright antagonism of the police forces in many modern day societies.  The police are there to enforce the law.  But who polices the police?  When the police are left to investigate themselves without proper independent oversight, things can easily start to go wrong, but importantly the public lose trust in them as well.

So who polices staff?  As far as I can tell, it is the higher ranking staff that purportedly do so.  While this works so long as the oversight staff are being judicious, it fails when they aren't or are simply too overwhelmed to notice wrongdoing. 

6. The idea of the Player Council has already been suggested by Mansa.  I propose the members of the player council should be nominated and elected via the players.  If it’s not unfeasible, I suggest ranked choice voting or something similar.  Each council member should have a fixed term of one year, renewable for one year further if reelected.  After serving, the council member may not serve again until one year has passed.  A council member may voluntarily step down at any time.  The playerbase may vote to remove a council member and replace them with someone else during their term, on a 3/4+ vote to do so.  The council would serve as an open forum for hearing complaints/appeals and be a mediating and decision making body for player-staff disputes as Mansa suggested, and decisions would be made by it’s members by majority vote.

7. The idea of a player Ombud has also been suggested by a few, but should also further be nominated and elected via the players and/or the player council, but also have further oversight/investigatory powers.  Similar to the council members, the Ombud should also have term/reelection/conduct rules, etc.  The Ombud should beyond what others have suggested have oversight power over staff.  In order to do so, the Ombud should have the same access to staff communications/forums/game logs etc that the highest level staff have as necessary to conduct oversight and investigation into alleged staff misconduct.  The Ombud should be subject to both player rules as well as staff policies.  If staff are to be allowed to play PCs in whatever fashion, the Ombud should be able to as well, with whatever restrictions or oversight staff have.  In the context and with the benefit of having full access, the Ombud should further have the equivalent voice to a staff Producer in all game matters (even so far as the thematic direction of the game and it’s content itself) as the representative voice of the players with the exception of disputes and complaints, where it would have the power to refer such matters and any collected evidence to the player council for deliberation and decision upon completion of an investigation.  This leads me to my next topic.

Collaboration as a Whole

8.  Invite the players to participate and drive real storylines and change in the world.  There have been some positive developments that I’ve seen introduced over the years such as inviting players to become builders, putting out submission calls, or introducing structured custom crafting systems.  But overall, stories of players being stymied and restricted have been a constant refrain for most of the time that I’ve played, and this has been the same for years and years.  In the very olden days of yore, players used to be able to become real movers and shakers in the world.  They used to make real history of note.  It wasn’t necessarily always the staff and “resource PCs” (what are these even?) that took centre stage, but sometimes it really was the players who stepped up and drove central storylines and bade the world evolve alongside them.  I’m not necessarily advocating for the return of the days of Thrain Ironsword, where the Flint’s of old was a wild west free-for-all of metal wielding magickers, halflings and mantis.  But as others have suggested, the glass ceilings put in place upon the playerbase since those days have historically impaired the creativity of the players and their ability to create meaningful storylines.  It should be a collaborative storytelling process, rather than a experiential one - or at least that is always what the the staff has always suggested they’d like to see of the players, yet the artificial barriers erected seem to have often prevented that from happening in the first place.  The players should have a strong voice in moving the world forward.

9. Give players the tools, ability and trust to do so.  I understand that there can be a lot of work that comes with a changing game world.  But piggybacking on LauraMars'/Rahnevyn’s suggestions - this could be offloaded in part or even in whole to the players as well.  Some player plot happens where Luir’s is to be completely destroyed, and staff doesn’t have time to rewrite a bunch of NPC’s/room descs/items/scripts, etc?  Get players involved that want to help!  Need some “resource PCs” to step in somewhere to bring alive some great villian or drive some big change somewhere?  Get players involved that want to help!  There is already a trust system in place.  Karma.  Use it to trust players to get involved in these sorts of ways and more.  It would be a positive way to use this kind of system, rather than the historically negative way it’s been wielded over players.  Staff could still oversee the process, and provide general guidelines.  Maybe the player council could be involved somehow in choosing trusted players (or giving people a chance to become such), etc.  Remove that trust, if and when warranted.  Retcon things, if things really go badly.  But I think if the line between "player" and "staff" starts to blur a bit and we start to place some trust in the players, the same sort of trust we've been asked by the staff to place in them, good things could really happen.


Maybe this is all wishful thinking.  As we’ve seen in the recent threads, we the players don’t even necessarily all agree on how to move forward.  I’d imagine there will be other proposals, other ways of doing things but trying to achieve similar goals.  Even if some things are introduced in some fashion that have been proposed, it would be helpful just to show that hey, we’re really serious about making things better - that one of Mansa’s suggestions to shift moderation to players has already been put in is a first step forward (but again transparency - how were the moderators selected?  is there a process to replace/remove one or more if they’re not working out? etc).  It’s a lot of work.  A lot of self reflection which takes a heaping dollop of humility.  But I’d like to think there is a way forward for this community, for this very special and unique game where the game doesn’t rest on those laurels and turns its nose up against its own community members because it thinks it’s so special.  It can’t, because as a niche in a niche, doing so risks its very continuing existence.  Its reputation is already in tatters - before I came back, I looked through /r/mud.  Armageddon is at a crossroads.  It is up to those that steer it to look at what changes might benefit us all, and that this thread even exists at all is in itself, a glimmer of hope that things might be set in the right direction for the future.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 12:28:44 AM by IntuitiveApathy »
Was there no safety? No learning by heart of the ways of the world? No guide, no shelter, but all was miracle and leaping from the pinnacle of a tower into the air?

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  • Posts: 128
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2023, 06:11:43 AM »
There's already a lot written, I'll keep it brief.

1. Asking for help from staff shouldn't result in a NPC animation causing a bizarre scene that escalates despite all common sense and ends up in a player PC death. Knowing what I do now about who animated it I'm not at all surprised it ended up that way but it has left a decidedly sour note when I used to have nothing but positive interactions with the staff previously.

2. Bad actors who sow strife in the community, be it cheating or harassment, player or staff, need to be investigated and banned with the same rules applied across the board. This also means that every rule that can be broken with every punishment should be clear up front (length of ban, storage, etc.). While I do think this needs to be implemented, I am on more wary on how to implement it. Can staff police itself and players fairly? Was the recent incident the result of one rotting, cancerous tumor that compromised the health of the entire body? I would like to think so. I certainly don't think the players would be any more trustworthy than the staff.

3. Resource characters need to go the way of the dodo. Staff should be allowed to play (or they won't want to be staff, I think this is pretty obvious) but cannot be logged into their staff account while on their PC avatar. Staff cannot play leadership roles - if they're not being filled there's obviously a reason why no one wants to play them. Find out why and adjust it to make it more enticing.

4. Make information more available - especially when it comes to spells for magick subclasses. It's not as exciting as you think it is to wade through fully branching something just to find out your last spell is world shaking like 'Create Bisquick'.

5.  Resist the call for too much change. The veil of secrecy - and more important, privacy - should remain unless information is voluntarily offered. Staff and their avatars should remain private unless they wish otherwise. People will certainly use this information with ill intent. This is the same for people who are subject to punishment unless they are a danger to the community. Otherwise the whole naming and shaming smacks of medieval moralistic punishment.

I am EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL that some player council would make things better as opposed to adding another level of bureaucracy and potential corruption by clique favorites being voted or otherwise chosen into a position where they can gather information on other players. It sounds like an invitation to systemic breakdown and anarchy at worse and extreme inefficiency at best. It would be far better for such players to just become staff instead where they can work on the inside instead of creating an unnecessary other layer. New staff should be drawn from the ranks of players who haven't previously been staff and ideally without any weird baggage or having a record of being too pro or anti staff.

6. If players want to get something lasting done in the world (something feasible and thought out and thematic) it really ought to be a priority for their staffer to help facilitate that happening as long as the player is willing to do what is necessary. It should be proportional to the goal, and only the scale and difficulty of the plan should affect how long it will take to get done. People really do want to leave their mark, they want to feel like they've accomplished something. When I DO hear about lasting accomplishments, they tend to be things done long ago. 
Halaster the Shroud of Death says, out of character:
     "oh shit, lol"


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Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2023, 06:19:40 PM »
I've removed a couple of posts that were
  • Written by people who posted in the thread already and
  • Replies to Halycon's deleted post.
A rusty brown kank explodes into little bits.

Someone says, out of character:
     "I had to fix something in this zone.. YOU WEREN'T HERE 2 minutes ago :)"


  • Posts: 948
Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2023, 02:51:35 PM »
1) All staff accounts are set to 0 karma
- Staff play red shirts, expendables, grunts, and mundanes.
- If staff finds themself in a position to drive a plot by accident, they report it openly to their team/the other team and their pc is pulled out of the plot organically.
- If its a big enough a whoopsie to warrant it:  they report it publicaly as a mistake here and on discord.
- being the minion of a player involved in plots is a-ok, but they should globally announce to all other staff this is the case for observation, in an immutable form

2) All staff have an automatic discharge date
- a year?  Two?  You'd have to decide as I don't have the metrics
- Burn out is real, and those affected rarely see it in themsleves
- Can come back and apply again after a certain break period (6 months, a year?) if they were discharged on good terms.
- This reapply is when players can come chime in on what they thought of that staff's performance

3) All staff should have a panic button tied to them
- This is not a popularity poll or the like.  Those measures typically suppress the capable.
- This is for when a player believes themself to have a severe issue with a staff member, proof on it, or a very serious problem
- Abuse = removal for both players and staff

4) 60% of staff time should be spend animating, building plots and stories for, and improving the engagement and role playing of the 0 and 1 karma range players AND the 'area leader' roles, like Templars
- Some significant chunk of the remainder should be spent adding to, expanding, and reintroducing wonder and awe to the world
- Chunk up the remainder on requests or impetus for the 2+, especially those who haven't had plots or initiatives before
- The more karma you have, the less you should need from staff

5) Explode the top half of the NPC population and make this closer to a player driven world
- No teleporting volcanos
- No gatekeeping, story-crushing NPCs of ultimate doom
- Grow the map, add unclaimed country, ruthlessly kill players who try to settle it until someone actually manages it
- Make resources that are fought over, and consequences for loosing and winning those fights

6) Prune the redundant and Gary Stu/Mary Sue clans that remain
- We all hear stories of water slides and impunity from all repercussion and it kills the world's authenticity. 
- We don't need multiple raider clans, we don't need more than 3 delf tribes(1 north, 1 south 1 other?), we don't need more than 1 tribal tribes, we don't need more than 3 open noble roles in each city at a time, and they best not like each other
- Leadership roles are best if they have tangible objectives to chase after, especially Faction Leaders like templars and city roles like Nobles  (and stop their rivals from accomplishing theirs)
- If there's 2-3 clans filling the same role, 2 of them need to close
- Pick a clan, tweak that clan to be a newbie clan that gets people into the game, and the players that are in it to that task (this used to be the T'zai Byn)

« Last Edit: March 10, 2023, 05:58:06 PM by Kryos »


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Re: Feedback on Changes You Want to See
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2023, 10:31:38 AM »
This thread will close on March 15, please get your ideas in here.