What constitutes sexual harassment and what should be done when it happens?

[DesertT]

The responses were full of arrogance and quite condescending.  When you threaten to leave as if that's some sort of punishment to the rest of us, that's arrogance.  When you claim a higher level of intellect than your respondents, that's condescending and arrogant.

And now with multiple folks editing their posts, I can't find who it was that posted Armageddon still believes in slavery.  It's not a moralistic world.  We have imposed -some- of our morals onto it, thus the strictness of Rape (backstory only essentially).

Speaking of what the game use to be, it USE to be that when you logged in, that was all the consent that was needed.  Granted, there was still a common courtesy of asking for consent for certain scenes.

We're getting to the point now where people are complaining about no consent when a whip is codedly used on their character without any other emotes whatsoever.

As for calling people sexual organs, I noted that only the female ones were mentioned in the post, yet the poster didn't mention dick, prick, or scrotum sack.  Would we prefer calling people "pinky toes" or "ugly knees"?  Be the change!!

If someone is sexually harassing you, FILE A COMPLAINT!! 

There's nothing stopping females from sexually harassing males.  This is not a one way street.  If everything's equal in Armageddon, then play it as if it is!!

There is going to be a measure of sexism because in Armageddon, male and female bodies are still biologically different.  Human females pay the price for bringing a mul into the world.  Until Armageddon decides to make it possible for males to get pregnant....

If a female noble has twins, do the other noble houses get interested now because that noble successfully carried and delivered twins?  SEXISM!!  Stop It Right Now!!

Nobody gets pregnant.  That's sexist against females.

[Mellifera]

Even if you're of the opinion that the players themselves aren't being literally harassed by unwanted sexual comments/conduct IC, those players should have every right to decide if they want to be involved in roleplay where their characters are targeted sexually. Asking permission OOCly before saying anything first is the bare bloody minimum.

[Bebop]

To my surprise, I am not yet banned.  I posted an experience of being at the receiving end of harassment and metagaming on the shadowboards.  It wasn't the ideal route.  I would have much rather posted it here within this community, but it would have unfortunately been deleted.  I needed my fellow players to see, unfiltered, what had happened.

I would still be happy to discuss this with staff and I feel the solution would be a player advocate group.  The group would be told of staff complaints, monitor their conclusions and to help people that are uncomfortable to report issues they're experiencing like mine.  I simply don't want more players to be on the receiving end of what I have consistently and recently experienced.

However, I can no longer go through channels where I will consistently be censored to the benefit of predatory behavior.

I truly hope the culture can change, but I can't be complicit by engaging in this community any longer until it does so significantly.  Women being the victims of harassment and sexual assault with Armageddon as a gateway is a serious matter and it's just gone to far, and on for too long.

[kahuna]

Using the IC/OOC barrier has a means to sexually harass people is about as bad as it gets. Unfortunately that barrier prevents players from having full awareness of situations. When players learn about stuff of course that is going to send them packing.

I don't think it's okay to sexually harass someone IC because it's IC. There isn't a written script here that people are signing up for, it's collaborative roleplay at the end of the day.

If you impose your will on someone else to force a scene or some sort of roleplay they don't want to engage in you risk losing that player forever, which in the current state of MUDs is also not a wise thing to be doing.

[Pariah]

Also keep in mind that if something you don't like is going on you do have the fade to black option.  Which essentially is like a no contest plea in court, it still happens but you don't have to watch the emotes and shit it just fast forwards the process.

I do this for mudsex every time, I might be a whore in game but I'm not emoting it out.

[kahuna]

Also keep in mind that if something you don't like is going on you do have the fade to black option.  Which essentially is like a no contest plea in court, it still happens but you don't have to watch the emotes and shit it just fast forwards the process.

I do this for mudsex every time, I might be a whore in game but I'm not emoting it out.

Doesn't always seem to be the case. Plenty of people aren't given this option and may feel obligated to roleplay out certain scenes when staff will is imposed upon them.

[DesertT]

Also keep in mind that if something you don't like is going on you do have the fade to black option.  Which essentially is like a no contest plea in court, it still happens but you don't have to watch the emotes and shit it just fast forwards the process.

I do this for mudsex every time, I might be a whore in game but I'm not emoting it out.

Doesn't always seem to be the case. Plenty of people aren't given this option and may feel obligated to roleplay out certain scenes when staff will is imposed upon them.

I feel like Quit OOC is always an option and filing a complaint.

I also disagree that FTB is yielding or is akin to a "no contest" plea.  Players should talk about options that are reasonably available.  If it's "death or maiming" and you don't want to play through the maiming, then visit the appropriate scars vendor after the FTB is over, or choose death.

[kahuna]

I feel like Quit OOC is always an option and filing a complaint.

Most people won't do that. Eventually it's ALT+F4, not filing a complaint and never logging back in. That's the hard reality. Of course that's a worst case scenario.

I don't think that players at large have faith in the complaint system. When is the last time a staff member was ever removed for abuse? How many players are you willing to lose over bad staff? Perhaps publishing those numbers would help us understand historically what you're dealing with here.

[DesertT]

I feel like Quit OOC is always an option and filing a complaint.

Most people won't do that. Eventually it's ALT+F4, not filing a complaint and never logging back in. That's the hard reality. Of course that's a worst case scenario.

I don't think that players at large have faith in the complaint system. When is the last time a staff member was ever removed for abuse? How many players are you willing to lose over bad staff? Perhaps publishing those numbers would help us understand historically what you're dealing with here.

There's still a number of us who survived Nyr soooo....   



ETA:  Apologies, this wasn't a full response nor even entirely appropriate.

A lack of faith in staff should be an entirely separate thread.  I think we've already seen some better transparency what with Shabago even banning himself for 7 days because they violated their own rules?

Commendable.

I also feel like SOME players have a tendency to over-exaggerate things and make nigh outrageous claims.  If you want every staff member to lose their position because they're not perfect, we simply won't have any staff left.

We are all imperfect people playing an imperfect game.  I'm not saying to let everything slide, but there are slights that we explode into mountains and lose our minds about that are just not worth the emotional or mental effort.

[Dar]

I guess ultimately we need to decide what is the theme of the game.

Are we the anti hero HBO style like Game of Thrones.  Where being crude, gory, and graphic is celebrated and welcome

Or are we more PG-13.

Being more PG-13 will not make the game less fun.  It might even improve enjoyment of many. It will be a different game though.

[Veselka]

It isn't difficult for people in positions of power to not use sex/sexual advances/sexual dominance as a bargaining chip or tool to employ against people who aren't able to sidestep them or evade them.

It really isn't.

Just don't do it.

There's plenty of other plot devices and ways to exert control and power over others.

I've been put in uncomfortable situations (mainly when I play female PCs, and this is as a cis hetero white male). I should have filed complaints. The times I did file complaints, i'm glad I did, even if I wasn't privy to the ultimate conclusions.

As I said at the top -- In a leadership position, it is very simple to avoid these seemingly 'grey' situations. Just don't use sex, sexual harassment, sexual coercion, sexual innuendo, or sexual threats as part of your tool box in dealing with other PCs. Eliminate these as options and you will never find yourselves in difficult situations like this.

Don't explain it away as 'My PC would do it'. No. That is up to you to decide. Don't make your PCs rapey. Or rapey-adjacent, or 'ignorant of how rapey they are'. Frankly, it's lazy, it's boring, and it's (at worst) very harmful to players around you, rather than just the PCs. I'd rather come across another <insert leadership role> obsessed with skulls and knives than a pervy leering innuendo machine.

[Tuannon]

agreed, talking to an Australian in a casual setting for the first time can turn any American into a Puritan.

This has nothing to do with sexual misconduct, stop talking nonsense.

[Pariah]

agreed, talking to an Australian in a casual setting for the first time can turn any American into a Puritan.

This has nothing to do with sexual misconduct, stop talking nonsense.

He was referring to Australians use of the word "cunt" which many people fine offensive and sexually deragatory.  So it does have to do with the topic, he was talking about how people from different places have more or less tolerance to things that would make another place freak out.

I know I am no prude but an Australian can make me stop in my steps a bit with the use of that word.

Why does it matter?  Well because the game is run off language, and language and context can mean many different things to many different people.  I know me personally I like to use "bitch" as a descriptor for lots of things, it's just a pejorative for me.  But some folks take huge offense to it in certain context.

I guess ultimately we need to decide what is the theme of the game.

Are we the anti hero HBO style like Game of Thrones.  Where being crude, gory, and graphic is celebrated and welcome

Or are we more PG-13.

Being more PG-13 will not make the game less fun.  It might even improve enjoyment of many. It will be a different game though.

So like Dar here said, I think we need to figure out what rating we are like a movie.  Are we X-rated, NC-17, R, PG-13 or PG?  Because then that will sorta frame up how hard you can go with language in general.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah I think the issue here is going well beyond naughty words.

[Kavrick]

Yeah I think the issue here is going well beyond naughty words.

Yeah I think trying to drag the conversation onto word policing is silly. The main issue is people oocly becoming uncomfortable with scenes that should be opt-in rather than opt-out. I think it's standard manners to ask someone oocly if they're ok with something happening that's either gory, bleak or overtly sexual. And people who pursue characters sexually after being asked oocly to stop should receive some sort of punishment, and not just a slap on the wirst. No one should be disuaded to play the game because another player cant respect someone's boundries, every player needs to remember that there's a person behind every character, and you should affort them the same respect and consideration as if you were talking to them face-to-face.

[Pariah]

I'm pretty sure if someone does something really off base and you report it, they will get dealt with.

Now, how is up to staff, are they gonna ban em from the game?  I dunno ask them.

[CirclelessBard]

To be clear, this discussion was not intended to be about what words are okay to use or not use, nor is it about consent. It is specifically about:
- sexual harassment;
- the extent to which the lack of sexism in Zalanthas should, in theory, invalidate its existence;
- what to be done when players or staff sexually harass people in- or out-of-game, or are accused of doing so

While I've read the arguments that sexism and sexual harassment are two different things (and they are), I do still maintain that in the real world, sexism reinforces sexual harassment by providing the false obligations and expectations that sexual harassers rely upon to claim their harassment is merely a valid form of interaction. Not all sexual harassment relies on sexism but a lot of it does. And given that Armageddon already has language in its documentation regarding sexism, it seems to me like a good jumping-off point to address sexual harassment. If it isn't, then Armageddon even more desperately needs separate language in its documentation to address sexual harassment than I thought.

I disagree with the argument that this is a consent-based issue, and I am not particularly interested in the history of the game where consent used to be defined by merely logging in. First of all, harassment can (and reportedly does) outside of the game. The "just close your eyes" argument is simply one that puts the onus on the victim to prevent their own harassment by leaving the area and ignoring it, and the end result is a game where only harassers are welcome. Surely even people who simply want to ignore this issue can see that this will eventually lead to a playerbase decline.

While it is a good idea to quit out and talk to staff upon being harassed, and wait until a resolution before coming back, there are three issues with this mode of resolution:
1) As previously mentioned, there are no explicit rules regarding sexual harassment, either on an IC or OOC level. It then becomes up to an individual staff member to interpret the more vague rules of "don't be a jerk" and game rule 1 in a way that condemns or allows the sexual harassment in question.
2) Not all harassment is direct, i.e., involving the harasser talking to the harassed. Creating a sexually hostile environment for the harassed is also sexual harassment, and the account I initially referenced in my original post is an example of that, where the resource PC essentially suggests to a third party that the harassed can be woken up through sex. Given that rape is not a plotline to be pursued in Armageddon it stands to reason that suggesting it should not be allowed either.
3) A more minor point of note, but quit ooc needs to be reloaded after use, so there is not always an easy way to escape a harassment situation.

Put briefly, my argument is this:
1) There needs to be an explicit rule about sexual harassment in-game and out-of-game,
2) and it needs to be a rule that applies to both players and staff members,
3) and it should go into effect as soon as possible.

[Pariah]

Playing devil's advocate here.

People seem to be demanding a lot of this place like it's a democracy and we all have a vote.

It's not, it's a dictatorship, and the guy or girl paying for the computer and broadband is most likely the head of that regime.  Where do folks get off demanding things like they are owed something?

We play her for free and someone or a group of someone's pays for the computer and internet to make that happen, we don't demand anything.

To put it in theme standpoint, they are the nobles and Templars, we are all just commoners allowed to play here.

[CirclelessBard]

Playing devil's advocate here.

People seem to be demanding a lot of this place like it's a democracy and we all have a vote.

It's not, it's a dictatorship, and the guy or girl paying for the computer and broadband is most likely the head of that regime.  Where do folks get off demanding things like they are owed something?

We play her for free and someone or a group of someone's pays for the computer and internet to make that happen, we don't demand anything.

To put it in theme standpoint, they are the nobles and Templars, we are all just commoners allowed to play here.

The purely cynical argument in favor of defining and ruling against sexual harassment is that it helps with player retention. Even a "templar" that "rules" the game probably wants more "commoners" to "rule over".

In general, I find devil's advocate arguments about this sort of thing absurd when the point of the thread is how to make players feel safe playing here. The premise assumes that the staff actually care about what the playerbase has to say. If they don't, they should say so - rather than a player speaking on their behalf.

[Windstorm]

Nevermind, I'm just staying out of it. Sorry.

[Qzzrbl]

Playing devil's advocate here.

Keep your day job.

[Pariah]

Playing devil's advocate here.

People seem to be demanding a lot of this place like it's a democracy and we all have a vote.

It's not, it's a dictatorship, and the guy or girl paying for the computer and broadband is most likely the head of that regime.  Where do folks get off demanding things like they are owed something?

We play her for free and someone or a group of someone's pays for the computer and internet to make that happen, we don't demand anything.

To put it in theme standpoint, they are the nobles and Templars, we are all just commoners allowed to play here.

The purely cynical argument in favor of defining and ruling against sexual harassment is that it helps with player retention. Even a "templar" that "rules" the game probably wants more "commoners" to "rule over".

In general, I find devil's advocate arguments about this sort of thing absurd when the point of the thread is how to make players feel safe playing here. The premise assumes that the staff actually care about what the playerbase has to say. If they don't, they should say so - rather than a player speaking on their behalf.

I'm 100% for people not being creeps, I have never been a guy who chose to roleplay sex cause it always came off as weird to me, so if they eliminted ERP and sexual type shit all the way and we kept it to death, magick and politics I'd be a huge fan.

That said, I'm just warning against tone.  While I'm assuming that something happened that caused this to come up and it was probably shitty and a horrible experience, there are better ways to address this stuff than to soapbox it on the forums with various people saying things like. "There needs to be..." "it should go into effect ASAP..." are sorta bullying to the folks who make the decisions.

I'm sure in their secret staff forums they discuss all manner of things we bring up and after they review it, come to a consensus, vote amongst themselves or wait for that one or two overlords who make the calls (However they do it) they will respond.

I think the reason that they only specify rape as a no go and allow consent for sexual torture/torture things is because there is a swath of players who like to sit in apartments and emote getting jiggy with it.

You must ask for consent from all visible players in the room before pursuing sexual or torture scenes. There is no such thing as implied consent from past consent grants - you must ask every time. If someone does not give consent, or requests that the scene "fade to black" or "FTB", you must honor that. If you engage in a graphic scene that another player did not consent to, your character will be stored and karma reduced, and your account will be banned for a month at the first occurrence, and your account will be banned permanently on the second occurrence.
There is an exception to the above rule: rape and sexual torture plot lines are forbidden. They cannot be pursued. There is no option to consent or fade to black. They are simply not played out at all. This extends to accusations and threats of rape or sexual torture. If you choose to do this anyway, your character will be stored and your karma reduced at the first occurrence, and your account will be banned permanently on the second occurrence.

Now if I go by the precedent you're hoping to establish here, about sexual harassment being a hard and fast rule, do I report every player that makes an unwanted advance on my every character?  Which would be all of them, cause it's fucking weird, sorry mudsexors...

Are you asking that before a character shows any, we'll call it romantic, interest in you they should go, OOC I was about to hit on you, is that okay?

It isn't difficult for people in positions of power to not use sex/sexual advances/sexual dominance as a bargaining chip or tool to employ against people who aren't able to sidestep them or evade them.

It really isn't.

Just don't do it.

Note that Wikipedia includes 'coercion' and 'abuse of power' as two ways that rape can be carried out. We are excluding these from our definition, as we feel they are part of the game world. Also, the rule of consent still applies as to how and if the sexual scene would be carried out.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rape Pulled right from there, again, I'm totally cool if they get rid of coercion and all that too as related to bumping uglies, but that's OK right now according to what I'm reading.

[HazelHomewrecker]

Playing devil's advocate here.

People seem to be demanding a lot of this place like it's a democracy and we all have a vote.

It's not, it's a dictatorship, and the guy or girl paying for the computer and broadband is most likely the head of that regime.  Where do folks get off demanding things like they are owed something?

We play her for free and someone or a group of someone's pays for the computer and internet to make that happen, we don't demand anything.

To put it in theme standpoint, they are the nobles and Templars, we are all just commoners allowed to play here.

I... what?

How come, out of this entire conversation--one which was created because a handful of players felt/were sexually harassed in the game, stalked in and out of the game, and generally treated in such-and-such way--your extrapolation is this actual steaming pile of garbage? I am so sorry if this comes out snippy and aggressive, and staff please don't delete this ( <3 or just moderate it a little) but you have to be the most insane person to think that deciding people aren't allowed to demand change concerning THESE SENSITIVE, REAL TOPICS, because we don't own the game?

We all play the game, we all put little parts of ourselves into it, bit by bit, year by year, so yes, people are going to feel a modicum of self-ownership for all of the time and effort they've put into the game. Who the hell are you to tell anyone anything about what they can or can't do in these regards? You have no basis here, no ball in the court, no brain cell in the discussion, and you parade like you're some wizened scholar with a thought process that trumps everyone else's. How conceited and self-righteous do you have to be?

You should be fucking embarrassed.

[Pariah]

We can disagree all day long, we can have different viewpoints all day long and we are as different of people as there are folks on the street in this small microcosm of a game.

Why do people instantly jump to insults and personal attacks instead of attacking the difference of opinion itself?

[HazelHomewrecker]

If you hold the morality of "I can play devil's advocate" on a topic about rape, sexual assault, harassment, stalking, and predatory tactics used on female players within the game as they've been accused, why do you think anyone should be trying to defend you and attack the difference of opinion?

What, are we supposed to go around saying "love the sinner, hate the sin?" just to make you feel better about having a shit take?