What constitutes sexual harassment and what should be done when it happens?

[CirclelessBard]

(tw // discussion of sexual harassment)

When I first played Armageddon, there was one thing in particular that moved me from being possibly interested in creating a character, to diving in right away. And that is the clause in the "What You Know" page stating: "Women and men are equal on Zalanthas. There is no sexism on Zalanthas." This was fairly unique at the time for roleplaying settings, which often gave different stats to male and female characters and assigned them more traditional gender roles, or had a mostly-male playerbase that was comfortable with demeaning women even if the world documentation didn't explicitly say anything one way or the other about sexism. Many roleplaying MUDs created after Armageddon have followed Sanvean's model in this regard, and you would be hard-pressed to find a roleplaying setting in a MU* today that has sexism. (Which is great!)

It follows, then, that if there is no sexism, sexual harassment don't make sense in the setting. For example, a male character would only expect a female character to comply with repeated sexual advances because she is a woman, if he holds the sexist belief that women ought to serve men sexually. By extension, all forms of sexual harassment feel out of place in the setting.

However, we are all humans on Earth, where sexism and sexual harassment unfortunately do exist, and we only have our perspectives to reference when it comes to roleplaying our own characters. This limitation means that our own biases, whether they are in the conscious or subconscious, are going to leak through into our roleplay, accidentally or purposefully. That being said, it is only reasonable to have a planned course of action when it does happen.

But although the "What You Know" clause on sexism should, in theory, be enough, it does not talk about sexual harassment explicitly. Nor do the rules explicitly talk about sexism and sexual harassment, though arguably this would be covered under Rule 1, the roleplaying rule. It states, in part: "Roleplaying is a requirement on Armageddon MUD. This involves assuming the role of a character of your creation, and acting the way your character would act in the world of Zalanthas." In theory, "acting the way your character would act" should cover not playing a character that is sexist or, by extension, engages in sexual harassment. Rule 1 outlines what should happen when a player fails to follow Rule 1 by stating "Failure to roleplay and disregarding documentation can result in warnings, karma reduction, storage of your character, and temporary and permanent bans." This should outline well enough what must happen.

All of that being said, I recently read an account where a player described sexual harassment from a character that she later discovered to be a staff member's resource character. In this account, the player describes the resource character as saying things to other characters such as "if she's fucked well enough she'll open her sleepy eyes" and "she likes it rough". Of course, like anyone else reading this account secondhand, I have no way of knowing whether this account is true. I can only accept it at face value as something that could have happened, and merits looking into further.

I do believe that Rule 1 is the only line of defense the game has when it comes to ensuring that sexism and sexual harassment doesn't creep into the game's setting. However, I would like to suggest that harassment and discrimination not conforming to the game's setting should be mentioned in the rules explicitly. Former allegations should be investigated and processed under Rule 1 and future instances of sexism and sexual harassment should be processed under the new rule. While Rule 1 might be "good enough", and the final rule of the game states that ignorance of the rules doesn't constitute a defense, a more explicit rule would help prevent players from facing the pain of sexism and sexual harassment in the first place.

Further, I suggest and urge staff to look into claims of sexual harassment in the past and present, and take steps to ensure that the playerbase is protected from it.

Thanks for reading, and I would sincerely appreciate any additional commentary or suggestions.

[CalmThyPalm]

Sexual harassment and sexism aren't always one and the same nor are they interchangeable and cannot exist without the other though.

By definition, sexism is discrimination based on gender, and this is what is out of place within the Known due to the lack of traditional gender roles Zalanthas has that the real world does not. It's why you see strong female characters nobody bats an eye at, effeminate male toons that aren't attacked for being so, and no disrespect whatsoever for openly queer people in the game, etc. There is no closet in Armageddon. Gender norms aren't a thing and therefore would be weird commenting on in-character, as much as it's not allowed to have main descriptions having lines such as 'for a woman, she is quite muscular', something I learned through a rejected character app myself.

Sexual harassment, on the other hand, while heavily linked to sexism in the real world, I believe still can and most likely does exist within Zalanthas both within PCs and the virtual world. It's just not linked to any preconceived biases surrounding gender, and is more just what it is at its base form: offensive acts of a sexual nature that include all forms of unwanted sexual attention. Because anybody can be sexually harassed, by anyone, even in a world that is not sexist. You can be a complete creep without being sexist. It means you're simply a creep to everybody.

I do agree though that there should be firmer and more explicit rules in place concerning sexual harassment as an entirely separate topic from sexism among PCs, at the very least, but the phrase 'it follows, then, that if there is no sexism, sexual harassment doesn't make sense in the setting' I don't.

[najdorf]

I believe it all boils down to consent. Forcing someone to do something is wrong however, devil is in the detail and all cases must be examined carefully.

For instance, if a man named Amos approaches a woman with curvy physique at Gaj and asks, "Hey, can me and my seven runner shitcloak buddies xxxx you for 10 coins?",
it is NOT harassment alone.

The woman not only has the right to say, "No, thanks,", but she HAS to say it too, and her refusal  of course must be respected.
Any form of pressure or insistence after that point is a form of harassment. Additionally, holding a grudge or seeking revenge against the woman through any other plot is also a form of harassment.

Furthermore, I believe that Amos loses all rights and privileges to make crude remarks or advances towards the woman. Positive discrimination is required to protect the woman's right to feel safe and respected. Even if the situation escalates via a completely separate plot and independently of the initial sex offer, Amos should never initiate aggression towards the woman.

We can never know if Amos's player has a hidden agenda of seeking revenge against the woman (or her player) for rejecting him. Therefore, such immunity should be given to the woman.

[CalmThyPalm]

I believe it all boils down to consent. Forcing someone to do something is wrong however, devil is in the detail and all cases must be examined carefully.

For instance, if a man named Amos approaches a woman with curvy physique at Gaj and asks, "Hey, can me and my seven runner shitcloak buddies xxxx you for 10 coins?",
it is NOT harassment alone.

The woman not only has the right to say, "No, thanks,", but she HAS to say it too, and her refusal  of course must be respected.
Any form of pressure or insistence after that point is a form of harassment. Additionally, holding a grudge or seeking revenge against the woman through any other plot is also a form of harassment.

Furthermore, I believe that Amos loses all rights and privileges to make crude remarks or advances towards the woman. Positive discrimination is required to protect the woman's right to feel safe and respected. Even if the situation escalates via a completely separate plot and independently of the initial sex offer, Amos should never initiate aggression towards the woman.

We can never know if Amos's player has a hidden agenda of seeking revenge against the woman (or her player) for rejecting him. Therefore, such immunity should be given to the woman.

Pretty much this, and make it apply to everybody: it should not matter if the perpetrator is male/female/androgynous, nor does it if the victim is either. Because anybody can be sexually harassed by anyone, regardless of gender. Just don't be creeps, and if you decide to be so even after a warning regardless of whether it's simply in-character for your toon or you yourself are one, then don't be butthurt when the appropriate punishment is handed. Consent is sexy, guys, gals, and non-binary pals.

[Tuannon]

If you are not happy with how a scene is playing out, you have the right to OOC as much and probably wish up for overwatch in how to pull out of it without any implications on yourself.

The reality is usually but not quite the same though. The scene that would have been a touch up against your will becomes a murder or a social down scaling to the point they may have well murdered you. Personally, I feel like the issue is related to the weakness of plot greed, but I don't have a solid solution for it as people see 'bad play' and take on those habits themselves.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

Can I be the first to say I'd like to be sexually harassed by the female players as penance for my fellow players misdeeds?

I admit, I'm pretty new. For a game where there isn't supposed to be OOC communication and metagaming I've read alot of things that lead me to believe that it's done with high frequency. I literally don't know any of you, at all, so I'd say my opinion here is pretty unbiased but, alas, I'm a dude, a man, all that. I don't have the perspective of a woman on this subject, and I have a pretty crude and dark sense of humor, so please, harass me. But, I dislike the whole mudsex thing. I don't read romance novels, so why would I be sitting here writing one? It's not so much that I dislike the actual making of a scene like that, it's that I don't know what weirdo is sitting on the other side of that PC. Anytime I've been put in a situation where I was uncomfortable, I had the option of getting out someway (Fade to black, etc). Have I been put in scenes where I might have got a tad uncomfortable OOCly, where I kinda didn't even want to take part in it? Yup. However, I haven't seen anything in my almost two years here that I would label as devastating enough to harm me in some manner OOCly. Whatever other players got going on with the Staff and shit, that's them. My experience hasn't had any negativity in it thus far (from staff, you guys in game are fucking ruthless). I'd go as far as to say that in general it has been a pleasant experience in my short but growing Arm career.  This could be because I'm a dude and no one wants to openly sexually harass and fuck me? Lmao! I don't know, I've always felt pretty. I am pretty. Say I'm pretty.

But in general nobody should be put in a situation where they're uncomfortable on an OOC level, but if the situation is a legitimate IC situation and you can't handle it, convey that, and get out. Nobody is keeping anyone here. You can disconnect just like the rest of us. It is shitty though if someone keeps pestering you and is doing actual harassment after you stated how uncomfortable you are and want out.

[Tailong]

Okay so first off, yes men and woman in Armageddon are completely equal in all ways.  Second of all, people should leave their Earthly social morals at the door.  This isn't earth and your morality doesn't always work here. This is a world where slavery is a socially accepted norm, murder is a slap on the wrist in most places and corruption is also socially acceptable and highly encouraged.

If you don't like what's happening, ooc and log out.  Don't log back in until Admins fix the issue. It's pretty simple. Consent must be given, and simple sexual comments are not sexual harassment. It's a game. You are not being sexual harassed, your character is.  Separate the two and you have a much better experience.  If in doubt, log out. 

[Delusion]

If any reasonable person is trying to discern if something that looks like sexual harassment is, in fact, sexual harassment, it almost certainly is sexual harassment. Quibbling over the particulars is weird.

The only appropriate response to sexual harassment, as a very well-established practice across MU*s as a whole, is the immediate removal of the perpetrator from the game. Doing anything less is to tacitly condone such behaviour.

[valeria]

The original post in topic seems to put two distinct things together into one topic: gender-based discrimination, and sexual harassment.

Gender stuff

Different genders being treated differently doesn't happen just from men to women or because of intentional sexism. You can't expect things that have been fed to you by society since you were too young to form complete sentences to disappear just because you know that they're wrong or not appropriate to a setting. Seriously, presumed male toddlers and presumed female toddlers are treated differently in terms of how they're disciplined. The best thing to do is to examine yourself and actively fight against any implicit biases you might have.

I've played male characters, female characters, and other characters, and they're treated differently. They just are. I don't feel like anyone is deliberately doing it, it's just something that happens because, again, people have been trained to treat people of certain genders a certain way.

I've seen 'you fight like a girl.' That was immediately pushed back against IC.

I've seen a man being forced to wear a skirt as some sort of punishment, and people making fun of him for it. I don't think that would happen today, and if it did, I'd point out that it's not consistent with documentation.

Sexual harassment stuff

Sexual harassment is when a person makes unwanted or inappropriate sexual advances toward another person. It's generally recognized that sexual advances being made from a person in power (a supervisor at work/a staff member) to a person without power (an employee/a player) aren't appropriate. The usual problem is that you can't know what sexual advances are unwanted until they've been made. At that point, if you're turned down, you need to stop making them.

I've been on the fringes of what appeared to be a character being pressured by a character in power to have sex with the power character, or else. I didn't say or do anything about it because I lacked information about whether that was actually going on. But if I was in that situation, I'd put in a player complaint.

If you're involved in something like that by another player character, put in a player complaint. If you feel like you've been wrongly harassed by staff presently or in the past, put in a staff complaint. It doesn't matter whether it's from a staff or another player. It's just not appropriate.

However, you should put in a complain sooner rather than later. We generally presume that people are innocent until proven guilty in part because it's hard to prove a negative (it's a lot easier to prove that someone is guilty than to prove that they're not guilty), so it needs to be looked into right away. The problem with trying to investigate stuff that happened in the past is that it's what we'd call 'stale' in lawyer circles. A lot of the evidence just isn't going to be there for anyone to look at. And without evidence, you're reduced to just going on vibes.

As far as 'oh just remove the accused person from the game,' in the employment context, people don't get fired just because someone made an accusation against them. Someone makes a complaint to human resources, supervisors look into it, and steps are taken, because when someone doesn't like someone else and office politics get involved, it's very easy for a person feeling aggrieved to make an unpalatable accusation (they pee in the employee shower, they're harassing me, pick something unacceptable and gross) in order to try to provoke a response and get the person they feel aggrieved by punished. In the employment context, the process is a complaint to human resources. In this game, the processes are player or staff complaints.

[CalmThyPalm]

Can I be the first to say I'd like to be sexually harassed by the female players as penance for my fellow players misdeeds?

I admit, I'm pretty new. For a game where there isn't supposed to be OOC communication and metagaming I've read alot of things that lead me to believe that it's done with high frequency. I literally don't know any of you, at all, so I'd say my opinion here is pretty unbiased but, alas, I'm a dude, a man, all that. I don't have the perspective of a woman on this subject, and I have a pretty crude and dark sense of humor, so please, harass me. But, I dislike the whole mudsex thing. I don't read romance novels, so why would I be sitting here writing one? It's not so much that I dislike the actual making of a scene like that, it's that I don't know what weirdo is sitting on the other side of that PC. Anytime I've been put in a situation where I was uncomfortable, I had the option of getting out someway (Fade to black, etc). Have I been put in scenes where I might have got a tad uncomfortable OOCly, where I kinda didn't even want to take part in it? Yup. However, I haven't seen anything in my almost two years here that I would label as devastating enough to harm me in some manner OOCly. Whatever other players got going on with the Staff and shit, that's them. My experience hasn't had any negativity in it thus far (from staff, you guys in game are fucking ruthless). I'd go as far as to say that in general it has been a pleasant experience in my short but growing Arm career.  This could be because I'm a dude and no one wants to openly sexually harass and fuck me? Lmao! I don't know, I've always felt pretty. I am pretty. Say I'm pretty.

But in general nobody should be put in a situation where they're uncomfortable on an OOC level, but if the situation is a legitimate IC situation and you can't handle it, convey that, and get out. Nobody is keeping anyone here. You can disconnect just like the rest of us. It is shitty though if someone keeps pestering you and is doing actual harassment after you stated how uncomfortable you are and want out.

Come to the Pah, and I'll tell you you're pretty. /lh /j

[KakkarotYaBoi]

Can I be the first to say I'd like to be sexually harassed by the female players as penance for my fellow players misdeeds?

I admit, I'm pretty new. For a game where there isn't supposed to be OOC communication and metagaming I've read alot of things that lead me to believe that it's done with high frequency. I literally don't know any of you, at all, so I'd say my opinion here is pretty unbiased but, alas, I'm a dude, a man, all that. I don't have the perspective of a woman on this subject, and I have a pretty crude and dark sense of humor, so please, harass me. But, I dislike the whole mudsex thing. I don't read romance novels, so why would I be sitting here writing one? It's not so much that I dislike the actual making of a scene like that, it's that I don't know what weirdo is sitting on the other side of that PC. Anytime I've been put in a situation where I was uncomfortable, I had the option of getting out someway (Fade to black, etc). Have I been put in scenes where I might have got a tad uncomfortable OOCly, where I kinda didn't even want to take part in it? Yup. However, I haven't seen anything in my almost two years here that I would label as devastating enough to harm me in some manner OOCly. Whatever other players got going on with the Staff and shit, that's them. My experience hasn't had any negativity in it thus far (from staff, you guys in game are fucking ruthless). I'd go as far as to say that in general it has been a pleasant experience in my short but growing Arm career.  This could be because I'm a dude and no one wants to openly sexually harass and fuck me? Lmao! I don't know, I've always felt pretty. I am pretty. Say I'm pretty.

But in general nobody should be put in a situation where they're uncomfortable on an OOC level, but if the situation is a legitimate IC situation and you can't handle it, convey that, and get out. Nobody is keeping anyone here. You can disconnect just like the rest of us. It is shitty though if someone keeps pestering you and is doing actual harassment after you stated how uncomfortable you are and want out.

Come to the Pah, and I'll tell you you're pretty. /lh /j

I'm getting a masochist kinda vibe. 

[Malken]

Nevermind, it's not my fight.

[Dar]

I'll likely echo what was said by others here.

Someone says "You fight like a girl".  That is totally against theme and the player should at first be educated and punished of they persist.

Someone being crude like a sailor, adding numerous explicitives in their language that are while sexual, are gender neutral?    That's just your regular drunken Bynner/Rinther/Zalanthas dweller. 

Aside that, there are trigger instances.  For example, when someone's behavior, while totally up to docs and ment to be explicit/crude/unpleasant, is making a player themselves uncomfortable.  While there is no fault to the one doing it, I think special allowances should be granted.  Whether requested via ooc say, or a wish up request to staff to privately ask the player of the crude character to dial it down somewhat.

Just be fair in this instance.  If your character is somehow under authority of the crude person and you can't leave without breaking character, then leaving is not an option.

But if you(generic you) entered a room, or are eavesdropping on a conversation and it's being crude and explicit, in my opinion, the onus to remove yourself from that interaction is on you(generic you).

Stuff like repeated persecution, regardless of gender, is a bit of a grey area.  It's harassment in my opinion and a grevious act IRL. Because often the target of the harassment has limited recourse on how to handle it without damage to themselves.

In game?  I've observed (maybe even been a part of) of some very heavy consequences when a character went "This fool just won't fuck off, they keep waying me how they want to fuck me".

I saw a templar on stand by to pardon everyone when a troop of bynners came in and insta ganked a dude.

Being Crude != sexual harassment. in my opinion.  Otherwise people like Gaige Gritshaw would not be remembered in history.


Ultimately sexual harassment is a complex topic. The shitshow (literally) between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard demonstrated it pretty well.  That harassment and intention to hurt others transcends genders.

[DesertT]

Note that Wikipedia includes 'coercion' and 'abuse of power' as two ways that rape can be carried out. We are excluding these from our definition, as we feel they are part of the game world. Also, the rule of consent still applies as to how and if the sexual scene would be carried out.

[Pariah]

I think the rules could be updated a bit to specify what is allowed and what isn't.

I remember back when I started playing, it wasn't necessarily gender discrimination (She's a girl and weak) type stuff, it was pretty much overt, aggressive sexual pursuit that was uncomfortable as fuck.

And it wasn't just women, I play all men character, don't think I've ever had a female, might have, but I don't remember her, and I've had dudes (Long time ago, not recently) chased and pursued by other dudes hardcore to the point I didn't feel comfortable logging in or staying logged in.  Now granted I didn't complain I just was weirded out by how hardcore they went at it.  I'm a fade to blacker all day, so even if someone tries it with more suave and my character is down it's gonna be a ooc Fade to black, I fucked you so good!

I think the first step if any of this is still going on would be to OOC Hey I don't feel comfortable with the way you're doing X and Y, can you please stop?  As I am a strong believer in solving things at the lowest level.

Now if homeboy/girl keeps it up after that?  Wish all SoandSo is being a creep, I've asked him to stop, he's ignoring my ooc request. and file a player report.

It's hard though because there are different types of players, some players could give two shits, they have skin thick as bahamet shell, others have skin the thickness of tissue paper, and that's just how humans are, no shade.  Some folks get bothered by shit more than others.  I think that's why it's important to have hard and fast rules with no room for interpretation on subjects like this.

[Jimpka_Moss]

I've lost faith in whatever this is

[Kavrick]

Playerbase, the gendered insults bitch, pussy, and cunt don't belong in Arm. They're not insults if you're not sexist. Please cut it the fuck out, I'm so disappointed.

I just wanted to quickly reply to this part. Keep in mind that the whole thing of gendered insults in regards to these words is a far more american thing than anywhere else. In places like new zealand, england and australia, they are not gendered insults as much as calling someone a 'dick' or a 'scrotum' is an insult. I would say that bitch can be considered a gendered insult as the meaning is completely different on whether or not you're calling a male or a female a bitch, but dick/cunt/asshole/prick are all pretty much completely interchangable at least in my own culture. Cunt is also a very common insult in the english/australian culture so it can be kinda annoying to have american standards applied to it. I mean in particular, cunt can even be used as an endearing, banter-y term between friends. 'alright cunt?' is a common greeting between friends both here in england and in austalia.

Just kinda wanted to say my peace because it's not the first time I've seen it come up.

[Veselka]

agreed, talking to an Australian in a casual setting for the first time can turn any American into a Puritan.

[Jimpka_Moss]

poor faith responder, self execute

[Kavrick]

(I believed) this used to be a place of prose, of art.

If the excuse is, 'Humans do it on Earth', you are excusing the tyrannical grip sexism has had on the Earth since our language and writing has existed.

I expect more from Armageddon, and it's players, and that's MY fault. The high-minded, lengthy research I do into psychology and sociology to provide you with realistic, well written responses to your 'Nah, me and my mates call each other cunt, 's fine' isn't a fair exchange.

Clearly, I should be playing another game. My expectations do not match reality, and will not.

Sorry but if you're going to say that it's sexist because of how it's used on earth but ignore that it's not used that way elsewhere I think that's a little one-sided. The language in game is the same as the language we use IRL, to try and completely disconnect them is unrealistic. Also to paraphrase my entire detailed explanation into "'Nah, me and my mates call each other cunt, 's fine'" Is both intellectually dishonest and poor faith. I'm going to leave it here because I have no desire to get into an argument but I thought I should at least reply to this.

[Jimpka_Moss]

poor faith responder, self execute

[Master Color]

I've seen players abuse sexist language to get under the skin of other players. It's disgusting and frankly the players who do/did this are trash.

Edit: cuz not bebop

[Jimpka_Moss]

Pretty sure Bebop is banned. I'm not Bebop, I'm Filthy_Grey_Rat, Walter_Schmalter, Raptor_Dan, Kevo, SickofDreaming, and probably some more over the years.

[Dar]

I am so lost.  Are people editing/having their posts deleted? Is Jimpka_moss/OP another gdb account of Bebops? What does Bebop has to do with this?




Jimpka_Moss. You really should stand firmer with your opinions. Other people have the right to think differently and it should be possible to express your opinions and those who disagree with you in a way that do not warrant GDB moderation. Posting, not liking other people's responses, and then editing/deleting your posts the way you did is passive aggressive as hell.  From your posts you seem to be a reasonable person. I think you could produce a post that's meaningful, even if there are others with opinions opposite to yours.

[Master Color]

Pretty sure Bebop is banned. I'm not Bebop, I'm Filthy_Grey_Rat, Walter_Schmalter, Raptor_Dan, Kevo, SickofDreaming, and probably some more over the years.

Muh bad.

[DesertT]

The responses were full of arrogance and quite condescending.  When you threaten to leave as if that's some sort of punishment to the rest of us, that's arrogance.  When you claim a higher level of intellect than your respondents, that's condescending and arrogant.

And now with multiple folks editing their posts, I can't find who it was that posted Armageddon still believes in slavery.  It's not a moralistic world.  We have imposed -some- of our morals onto it, thus the strictness of Rape (backstory only essentially).

Speaking of what the game use to be, it USE to be that when you logged in, that was all the consent that was needed.  Granted, there was still a common courtesy of asking for consent for certain scenes.

We're getting to the point now where people are complaining about no consent when a whip is codedly used on their character without any other emotes whatsoever.

As for calling people sexual organs, I noted that only the female ones were mentioned in the post, yet the poster didn't mention dick, prick, or scrotum sack.  Would we prefer calling people "pinky toes" or "ugly knees"?  Be the change!!

If someone is sexually harassing you, FILE A COMPLAINT!! 

There's nothing stopping females from sexually harassing males.  This is not a one way street.  If everything's equal in Armageddon, then play it as if it is!!

There is going to be a measure of sexism because in Armageddon, male and female bodies are still biologically different.  Human females pay the price for bringing a mul into the world.  Until Armageddon decides to make it possible for males to get pregnant....

If a female noble has twins, do the other noble houses get interested now because that noble successfully carried and delivered twins?  SEXISM!!  Stop It Right Now!!

Nobody gets pregnant.  That's sexist against females.

[Mellifera]

Even if you're of the opinion that the players themselves aren't being literally harassed by unwanted sexual comments/conduct IC, those players should have every right to decide if they want to be involved in roleplay where their characters are targeted sexually. Asking permission OOCly before saying anything first is the bare bloody minimum.

[Bebop]

To my surprise, I am not yet banned.  I posted an experience of being at the receiving end of harassment and metagaming on the shadowboards.  It wasn't the ideal route.  I would have much rather posted it here within this community, but it would have unfortunately been deleted.  I needed my fellow players to see, unfiltered, what had happened.

I would still be happy to discuss this with staff and I feel the solution would be a player advocate group.  The group would be told of staff complaints, monitor their conclusions and to help people that are uncomfortable to report issues they're experiencing like mine.  I simply don't want more players to be on the receiving end of what I have consistently and recently experienced.

However, I can no longer go through channels where I will consistently be censored to the benefit of predatory behavior.

I truly hope the culture can change, but I can't be complicit by engaging in this community any longer until it does so significantly.  Women being the victims of harassment and sexual assault with Armageddon as a gateway is a serious matter and it's just gone to far, and on for too long.

[kahuna]

Using the IC/OOC barrier has a means to sexually harass people is about as bad as it gets. Unfortunately that barrier prevents players from having full awareness of situations. When players learn about stuff of course that is going to send them packing.

I don't think it's okay to sexually harass someone IC because it's IC. There isn't a written script here that people are signing up for, it's collaborative roleplay at the end of the day.

If you impose your will on someone else to force a scene or some sort of roleplay they don't want to engage in you risk losing that player forever, which in the current state of MUDs is also not a wise thing to be doing.

[Pariah]

Also keep in mind that if something you don't like is going on you do have the fade to black option.  Which essentially is like a no contest plea in court, it still happens but you don't have to watch the emotes and shit it just fast forwards the process.

I do this for mudsex every time, I might be a whore in game but I'm not emoting it out.

[kahuna]

Also keep in mind that if something you don't like is going on you do have the fade to black option.  Which essentially is like a no contest plea in court, it still happens but you don't have to watch the emotes and shit it just fast forwards the process.

I do this for mudsex every time, I might be a whore in game but I'm not emoting it out.

Doesn't always seem to be the case. Plenty of people aren't given this option and may feel obligated to roleplay out certain scenes when staff will is imposed upon them.

[DesertT]

Also keep in mind that if something you don't like is going on you do have the fade to black option.  Which essentially is like a no contest plea in court, it still happens but you don't have to watch the emotes and shit it just fast forwards the process.

I do this for mudsex every time, I might be a whore in game but I'm not emoting it out.

Doesn't always seem to be the case. Plenty of people aren't given this option and may feel obligated to roleplay out certain scenes when staff will is imposed upon them.

I feel like Quit OOC is always an option and filing a complaint.

I also disagree that FTB is yielding or is akin to a "no contest" plea.  Players should talk about options that are reasonably available.  If it's "death or maiming" and you don't want to play through the maiming, then visit the appropriate scars vendor after the FTB is over, or choose death.

[kahuna]

I feel like Quit OOC is always an option and filing a complaint.

Most people won't do that. Eventually it's ALT+F4, not filing a complaint and never logging back in. That's the hard reality. Of course that's a worst case scenario.

I don't think that players at large have faith in the complaint system. When is the last time a staff member was ever removed for abuse? How many players are you willing to lose over bad staff? Perhaps publishing those numbers would help us understand historically what you're dealing with here.

[DesertT]

I feel like Quit OOC is always an option and filing a complaint.

Most people won't do that. Eventually it's ALT+F4, not filing a complaint and never logging back in. That's the hard reality. Of course that's a worst case scenario.

I don't think that players at large have faith in the complaint system. When is the last time a staff member was ever removed for abuse? How many players are you willing to lose over bad staff? Perhaps publishing those numbers would help us understand historically what you're dealing with here.

There's still a number of us who survived Nyr soooo....   



ETA:  Apologies, this wasn't a full response nor even entirely appropriate.

A lack of faith in staff should be an entirely separate thread.  I think we've already seen some better transparency what with Shabago even banning himself for 7 days because they violated their own rules?

Commendable.

I also feel like SOME players have a tendency to over-exaggerate things and make nigh outrageous claims.  If you want every staff member to lose their position because they're not perfect, we simply won't have any staff left.

We are all imperfect people playing an imperfect game.  I'm not saying to let everything slide, but there are slights that we explode into mountains and lose our minds about that are just not worth the emotional or mental effort.

[Dar]

I guess ultimately we need to decide what is the theme of the game.

Are we the anti hero HBO style like Game of Thrones.  Where being crude, gory, and graphic is celebrated and welcome

Or are we more PG-13.

Being more PG-13 will not make the game less fun.  It might even improve enjoyment of many. It will be a different game though.

[Veselka]

It isn't difficult for people in positions of power to not use sex/sexual advances/sexual dominance as a bargaining chip or tool to employ against people who aren't able to sidestep them or evade them.

It really isn't.

Just don't do it.

There's plenty of other plot devices and ways to exert control and power over others.

I've been put in uncomfortable situations (mainly when I play female PCs, and this is as a cis hetero white male). I should have filed complaints. The times I did file complaints, i'm glad I did, even if I wasn't privy to the ultimate conclusions.

As I said at the top -- In a leadership position, it is very simple to avoid these seemingly 'grey' situations. Just don't use sex, sexual harassment, sexual coercion, sexual innuendo, or sexual threats as part of your tool box in dealing with other PCs. Eliminate these as options and you will never find yourselves in difficult situations like this.

Don't explain it away as 'My PC would do it'. No. That is up to you to decide. Don't make your PCs rapey. Or rapey-adjacent, or 'ignorant of how rapey they are'. Frankly, it's lazy, it's boring, and it's (at worst) very harmful to players around you, rather than just the PCs. I'd rather come across another <insert leadership role> obsessed with skulls and knives than a pervy leering innuendo machine.

[Tuannon]

agreed, talking to an Australian in a casual setting for the first time can turn any American into a Puritan.

This has nothing to do with sexual misconduct, stop talking nonsense.

[Pariah]

agreed, talking to an Australian in a casual setting for the first time can turn any American into a Puritan.

This has nothing to do with sexual misconduct, stop talking nonsense.

He was referring to Australians use of the word "cunt" which many people fine offensive and sexually deragatory.  So it does have to do with the topic, he was talking about how people from different places have more or less tolerance to things that would make another place freak out.

I know I am no prude but an Australian can make me stop in my steps a bit with the use of that word.

Why does it matter?  Well because the game is run off language, and language and context can mean many different things to many different people.  I know me personally I like to use "bitch" as a descriptor for lots of things, it's just a pejorative for me.  But some folks take huge offense to it in certain context.

I guess ultimately we need to decide what is the theme of the game.

Are we the anti hero HBO style like Game of Thrones.  Where being crude, gory, and graphic is celebrated and welcome

Or are we more PG-13.

Being more PG-13 will not make the game less fun.  It might even improve enjoyment of many. It will be a different game though.

So like Dar here said, I think we need to figure out what rating we are like a movie.  Are we X-rated, NC-17, R, PG-13 or PG?  Because then that will sorta frame up how hard you can go with language in general.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah I think the issue here is going well beyond naughty words.

[Kavrick]

Yeah I think the issue here is going well beyond naughty words.

Yeah I think trying to drag the conversation onto word policing is silly. The main issue is people oocly becoming uncomfortable with scenes that should be opt-in rather than opt-out. I think it's standard manners to ask someone oocly if they're ok with something happening that's either gory, bleak or overtly sexual. And people who pursue characters sexually after being asked oocly to stop should receive some sort of punishment, and not just a slap on the wirst. No one should be disuaded to play the game because another player cant respect someone's boundries, every player needs to remember that there's a person behind every character, and you should affort them the same respect and consideration as if you were talking to them face-to-face.

[Pariah]

I'm pretty sure if someone does something really off base and you report it, they will get dealt with.

Now, how is up to staff, are they gonna ban em from the game?  I dunno ask them.

[CirclelessBard]

To be clear, this discussion was not intended to be about what words are okay to use or not use, nor is it about consent. It is specifically about:
- sexual harassment;
- the extent to which the lack of sexism in Zalanthas should, in theory, invalidate its existence;
- what to be done when players or staff sexually harass people in- or out-of-game, or are accused of doing so

While I've read the arguments that sexism and sexual harassment are two different things (and they are), I do still maintain that in the real world, sexism reinforces sexual harassment by providing the false obligations and expectations that sexual harassers rely upon to claim their harassment is merely a valid form of interaction. Not all sexual harassment relies on sexism but a lot of it does. And given that Armageddon already has language in its documentation regarding sexism, it seems to me like a good jumping-off point to address sexual harassment. If it isn't, then Armageddon even more desperately needs separate language in its documentation to address sexual harassment than I thought.

I disagree with the argument that this is a consent-based issue, and I am not particularly interested in the history of the game where consent used to be defined by merely logging in. First of all, harassment can (and reportedly does) outside of the game. The "just close your eyes" argument is simply one that puts the onus on the victim to prevent their own harassment by leaving the area and ignoring it, and the end result is a game where only harassers are welcome. Surely even people who simply want to ignore this issue can see that this will eventually lead to a playerbase decline.

While it is a good idea to quit out and talk to staff upon being harassed, and wait until a resolution before coming back, there are three issues with this mode of resolution:
1) As previously mentioned, there are no explicit rules regarding sexual harassment, either on an IC or OOC level. It then becomes up to an individual staff member to interpret the more vague rules of "don't be a jerk" and game rule 1 in a way that condemns or allows the sexual harassment in question.
2) Not all harassment is direct, i.e., involving the harasser talking to the harassed. Creating a sexually hostile environment for the harassed is also sexual harassment, and the account I initially referenced in my original post is an example of that, where the resource PC essentially suggests to a third party that the harassed can be woken up through sex. Given that rape is not a plotline to be pursued in Armageddon it stands to reason that suggesting it should not be allowed either.
3) A more minor point of note, but quit ooc needs to be reloaded after use, so there is not always an easy way to escape a harassment situation.

Put briefly, my argument is this:
1) There needs to be an explicit rule about sexual harassment in-game and out-of-game,
2) and it needs to be a rule that applies to both players and staff members,
3) and it should go into effect as soon as possible.

[Pariah]

Playing devil's advocate here.

People seem to be demanding a lot of this place like it's a democracy and we all have a vote.

It's not, it's a dictatorship, and the guy or girl paying for the computer and broadband is most likely the head of that regime.  Where do folks get off demanding things like they are owed something?

We play her for free and someone or a group of someone's pays for the computer and internet to make that happen, we don't demand anything.

To put it in theme standpoint, they are the nobles and Templars, we are all just commoners allowed to play here.

[CirclelessBard]

Playing devil's advocate here.

People seem to be demanding a lot of this place like it's a democracy and we all have a vote.

It's not, it's a dictatorship, and the guy or girl paying for the computer and broadband is most likely the head of that regime.  Where do folks get off demanding things like they are owed something?

We play her for free and someone or a group of someone's pays for the computer and internet to make that happen, we don't demand anything.

To put it in theme standpoint, they are the nobles and Templars, we are all just commoners allowed to play here.

The purely cynical argument in favor of defining and ruling against sexual harassment is that it helps with player retention. Even a "templar" that "rules" the game probably wants more "commoners" to "rule over".

In general, I find devil's advocate arguments about this sort of thing absurd when the point of the thread is how to make players feel safe playing here. The premise assumes that the staff actually care about what the playerbase has to say. If they don't, they should say so - rather than a player speaking on their behalf.

[Windstorm]

Nevermind, I'm just staying out of it. Sorry.

[Qzzrbl]

Playing devil's advocate here.

Keep your day job.

[Pariah]

Playing devil's advocate here.

People seem to be demanding a lot of this place like it's a democracy and we all have a vote.

It's not, it's a dictatorship, and the guy or girl paying for the computer and broadband is most likely the head of that regime.  Where do folks get off demanding things like they are owed something?

We play her for free and someone or a group of someone's pays for the computer and internet to make that happen, we don't demand anything.

To put it in theme standpoint, they are the nobles and Templars, we are all just commoners allowed to play here.

The purely cynical argument in favor of defining and ruling against sexual harassment is that it helps with player retention. Even a "templar" that "rules" the game probably wants more "commoners" to "rule over".

In general, I find devil's advocate arguments about this sort of thing absurd when the point of the thread is how to make players feel safe playing here. The premise assumes that the staff actually care about what the playerbase has to say. If they don't, they should say so - rather than a player speaking on their behalf.

I'm 100% for people not being creeps, I have never been a guy who chose to roleplay sex cause it always came off as weird to me, so if they eliminted ERP and sexual type shit all the way and we kept it to death, magick and politics I'd be a huge fan.

That said, I'm just warning against tone.  While I'm assuming that something happened that caused this to come up and it was probably shitty and a horrible experience, there are better ways to address this stuff than to soapbox it on the forums with various people saying things like. "There needs to be..." "it should go into effect ASAP..." are sorta bullying to the folks who make the decisions.

I'm sure in their secret staff forums they discuss all manner of things we bring up and after they review it, come to a consensus, vote amongst themselves or wait for that one or two overlords who make the calls (However they do it) they will respond.

I think the reason that they only specify rape as a no go and allow consent for sexual torture/torture things is because there is a swath of players who like to sit in apartments and emote getting jiggy with it.

You must ask for consent from all visible players in the room before pursuing sexual or torture scenes. There is no such thing as implied consent from past consent grants - you must ask every time. If someone does not give consent, or requests that the scene "fade to black" or "FTB", you must honor that. If you engage in a graphic scene that another player did not consent to, your character will be stored and karma reduced, and your account will be banned for a month at the first occurrence, and your account will be banned permanently on the second occurrence.
There is an exception to the above rule: rape and sexual torture plot lines are forbidden. They cannot be pursued. There is no option to consent or fade to black. They are simply not played out at all. This extends to accusations and threats of rape or sexual torture. If you choose to do this anyway, your character will be stored and your karma reduced at the first occurrence, and your account will be banned permanently on the second occurrence.

Now if I go by the precedent you're hoping to establish here, about sexual harassment being a hard and fast rule, do I report every player that makes an unwanted advance on my every character?  Which would be all of them, cause it's fucking weird, sorry mudsexors...

Are you asking that before a character shows any, we'll call it romantic, interest in you they should go, OOC I was about to hit on you, is that okay?

It isn't difficult for people in positions of power to not use sex/sexual advances/sexual dominance as a bargaining chip or tool to employ against people who aren't able to sidestep them or evade them.

It really isn't.

Just don't do it.

Note that Wikipedia includes 'coercion' and 'abuse of power' as two ways that rape can be carried out. We are excluding these from our definition, as we feel they are part of the game world. Also, the rule of consent still applies as to how and if the sexual scene would be carried out.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rape Pulled right from there, again, I'm totally cool if they get rid of coercion and all that too as related to bumping uglies, but that's OK right now according to what I'm reading.

[HazelHomewrecker]

Playing devil's advocate here.

People seem to be demanding a lot of this place like it's a democracy and we all have a vote.

It's not, it's a dictatorship, and the guy or girl paying for the computer and broadband is most likely the head of that regime.  Where do folks get off demanding things like they are owed something?

We play her for free and someone or a group of someone's pays for the computer and internet to make that happen, we don't demand anything.

To put it in theme standpoint, they are the nobles and Templars, we are all just commoners allowed to play here.

I... what?

How come, out of this entire conversation--one which was created because a handful of players felt/were sexually harassed in the game, stalked in and out of the game, and generally treated in such-and-such way--your extrapolation is this actual steaming pile of garbage? I am so sorry if this comes out snippy and aggressive, and staff please don't delete this ( <3 or just moderate it a little) but you have to be the most insane person to think that deciding people aren't allowed to demand change concerning THESE SENSITIVE, REAL TOPICS, because we don't own the game?

We all play the game, we all put little parts of ourselves into it, bit by bit, year by year, so yes, people are going to feel a modicum of self-ownership for all of the time and effort they've put into the game. Who the hell are you to tell anyone anything about what they can or can't do in these regards? You have no basis here, no ball in the court, no brain cell in the discussion, and you parade like you're some wizened scholar with a thought process that trumps everyone else's. How conceited and self-righteous do you have to be?

You should be fucking embarrassed.

[Pariah]

We can disagree all day long, we can have different viewpoints all day long and we are as different of people as there are folks on the street in this small microcosm of a game.

Why do people instantly jump to insults and personal attacks instead of attacking the difference of opinion itself?

[HazelHomewrecker]

If you hold the morality of "I can play devil's advocate" on a topic about rape, sexual assault, harassment, stalking, and predatory tactics used on female players within the game as they've been accused, why do you think anyone should be trying to defend you and attack the difference of opinion?

What, are we supposed to go around saying "love the sinner, hate the sin?" just to make you feel better about having a shit take?

[CirclelessBard]

Playing devil's advocate here.

People seem to be demanding a lot of this place like it's a democracy and we all have a vote.

It's not, it's a dictatorship, and the guy or girl paying for the computer and broadband is most likely the head of that regime.  Where do folks get off demanding things like they are owed something?

We play her for free and someone or a group of someone's pays for the computer and internet to make that happen, we don't demand anything.

To put it in theme standpoint, they are the nobles and Templars, we are all just commoners allowed to play here.

The purely cynical argument in favor of defining and ruling against sexual harassment is that it helps with player retention. Even a "templar" that "rules" the game probably wants more "commoners" to "rule over".

In general, I find devil's advocate arguments about this sort of thing absurd when the point of the thread is how to make players feel safe playing here. The premise assumes that the staff actually care about what the playerbase has to say. If they don't, they should say so - rather than a player speaking on their behalf.

I'm 100% for people not being creeps, I have never been a guy who chose to roleplay sex cause it always came off as weird to me, so if they eliminted ERP and sexual type shit all the way and we kept it to death, magick and politics I'd be a huge fan.

That said, I'm just warning against tone.  While I'm assuming that something happened that caused this to come up and it was probably shitty and a horrible experience, there are better ways to address this stuff than to soapbox it on the forums with various people saying things like. "There needs to be..." "it should go into effect ASAP..." are sorta bullying to the folks who make the decisions.

I'm sure in their secret staff forums they discuss all manner of things we bring up and after they review it, come to a consensus, vote amongst themselves or wait for that one or two overlords who make the calls (However they do it) they will respond.

I understand that tone is difficult to read, but speaking for myself, my tone is providing suggestion. When I say that something "needs" to happen, it is not me attempting to order staff on what to do. It is me expressing my personal opinion on how the problem could (and in my opinion, should) be fixed.

I will state that I would hope the staff are just as shocked to read the account that I read, as much as I was shocked when I read it, assuming they are aware of it. With that in mind, I also came to the assumption that staff are privately discussing the matter. My statement was not to imply that staff's silence is deafening, but rather that they don't need an excuse not to speak up when they are ready to do so. And I would hope that, after the end of the discussion, they agree that staff members should not be engaging in out-of-character sexual harassment, nor should resource PCs be suggesting actions that are against the rules, because that really is the bare minimum for ensuring that the game is holding itself to its own standards.

Edit to add: Additionally, I would ask that everyone please try to remain calm. Even though the subject matter is obviously disturbing, it's not my intention to evoke reactions of annoyance or anger. I would like the discussion to be able to continue and everyone to feel like they can contribute in good faith. I would also like a staff member to feel safe and welcome to comment once they're ready to present a unified front on the matter.

[Pariah]

I am assuming this is in reference to Bebop's shadow board post.  I try my best to avoid that board, but I guess if it's as bad as you're alluding to, I might have to give it a read.

[Halaster]

This is a heated, emotional topic, and I understand that.  But discussing something from a heated, emotional place does not get results.  It just gets people angry.  Someday maybe we can talk about this like adults, but today is not that day.