What constitutes sexual harassment and what should be done when it happens?

[CirclelessBard]

(tw // discussion of sexual harassment)

When I first played Armageddon, there was one thing in particular that moved me from being possibly interested in creating a character, to diving in right away. And that is the clause in the "What You Know" page stating: "Women and men are equal on Zalanthas. There is no sexism on Zalanthas." This was fairly unique at the time for roleplaying settings, which often gave different stats to male and female characters and assigned them more traditional gender roles, or had a mostly-male playerbase that was comfortable with demeaning women even if the world documentation didn't explicitly say anything one way or the other about sexism. Many roleplaying MUDs created after Armageddon have followed Sanvean's model in this regard, and you would be hard-pressed to find a roleplaying setting in a MU* today that has sexism. (Which is great!)

It follows, then, that if there is no sexism, sexual harassment don't make sense in the setting. For example, a male character would only expect a female character to comply with repeated sexual advances because she is a woman, if he holds the sexist belief that women ought to serve men sexually. By extension, all forms of sexual harassment feel out of place in the setting.

However, we are all humans on Earth, where sexism and sexual harassment unfortunately do exist, and we only have our perspectives to reference when it comes to roleplaying our own characters. This limitation means that our own biases, whether they are in the conscious or subconscious, are going to leak through into our roleplay, accidentally or purposefully. That being said, it is only reasonable to have a planned course of action when it does happen.

But although the "What You Know" clause on sexism should, in theory, be enough, it does not talk about sexual harassment explicitly. Nor do the rules explicitly talk about sexism and sexual harassment, though arguably this would be covered under Rule 1, the roleplaying rule. It states, in part: "Roleplaying is a requirement on Armageddon MUD. This involves assuming the role of a character of your creation, and acting the way your character would act in the world of Zalanthas." In theory, "acting the way your character would act" should cover not playing a character that is sexist or, by extension, engages in sexual harassment. Rule 1 outlines what should happen when a player fails to follow Rule 1 by stating "Failure to roleplay and disregarding documentation can result in warnings, karma reduction, storage of your character, and temporary and permanent bans." This should outline well enough what must happen.

All of that being said, I recently read an account where a player described sexual harassment from a character that she later discovered to be a staff member's resource character. In this account, the player describes the resource character as saying things to other characters such as "if she's fucked well enough she'll open her sleepy eyes" and "she likes it rough". Of course, like anyone else reading this account secondhand, I have no way of knowing whether this account is true. I can only accept it at face value as something that could have happened, and merits looking into further.

I do believe that Rule 1 is the only line of defense the game has when it comes to ensuring that sexism and sexual harassment doesn't creep into the game's setting. However, I would like to suggest that harassment and discrimination not conforming to the game's setting should be mentioned in the rules explicitly. Former allegations should be investigated and processed under Rule 1 and future instances of sexism and sexual harassment should be processed under the new rule. While Rule 1 might be "good enough", and the final rule of the game states that ignorance of the rules doesn't constitute a defense, a more explicit rule would help prevent players from facing the pain of sexism and sexual harassment in the first place.

Further, I suggest and urge staff to look into claims of sexual harassment in the past and present, and take steps to ensure that the playerbase is protected from it.

Thanks for reading, and I would sincerely appreciate any additional commentary or suggestions.

[CalmThyPalm]

Sexual harassment and sexism aren't always one and the same nor are they interchangeable and cannot exist without the other though.

By definition, sexism is discrimination based on gender, and this is what is out of place within the Known due to the lack of traditional gender roles Zalanthas has that the real world does not. It's why you see strong female characters nobody bats an eye at, effeminate male toons that aren't attacked for being so, and no disrespect whatsoever for openly queer people in the game, etc. There is no closet in Armageddon. Gender norms aren't a thing and therefore would be weird commenting on in-character, as much as it's not allowed to have main descriptions having lines such as 'for a woman, she is quite muscular', something I learned through a rejected character app myself.

Sexual harassment, on the other hand, while heavily linked to sexism in the real world, I believe still can and most likely does exist within Zalanthas both within PCs and the virtual world. It's just not linked to any preconceived biases surrounding gender, and is more just what it is at its base form: offensive acts of a sexual nature that include all forms of unwanted sexual attention. Because anybody can be sexually harassed, by anyone, even in a world that is not sexist. You can be a complete creep without being sexist. It means you're simply a creep to everybody.

I do agree though that there should be firmer and more explicit rules in place concerning sexual harassment as an entirely separate topic from sexism among PCs, at the very least, but the phrase 'it follows, then, that if there is no sexism, sexual harassment doesn't make sense in the setting' I don't.

[najdorf]

I believe it all boils down to consent. Forcing someone to do something is wrong however, devil is in the detail and all cases must be examined carefully.

For instance, if a man named Amos approaches a woman with curvy physique at Gaj and asks, "Hey, can me and my seven runner shitcloak buddies xxxx you for 10 coins?",
it is NOT harassment alone.

The woman not only has the right to say, "No, thanks,", but she HAS to say it too, and her refusal  of course must be respected.
Any form of pressure or insistence after that point is a form of harassment. Additionally, holding a grudge or seeking revenge against the woman through any other plot is also a form of harassment.

Furthermore, I believe that Amos loses all rights and privileges to make crude remarks or advances towards the woman. Positive discrimination is required to protect the woman's right to feel safe and respected. Even if the situation escalates via a completely separate plot and independently of the initial sex offer, Amos should never initiate aggression towards the woman.

We can never know if Amos's player has a hidden agenda of seeking revenge against the woman (or her player) for rejecting him. Therefore, such immunity should be given to the woman.

[CalmThyPalm]

I believe it all boils down to consent. Forcing someone to do something is wrong however, devil is in the detail and all cases must be examined carefully.

For instance, if a man named Amos approaches a woman with curvy physique at Gaj and asks, "Hey, can me and my seven runner shitcloak buddies xxxx you for 10 coins?",
it is NOT harassment alone.

The woman not only has the right to say, "No, thanks,", but she HAS to say it too, and her refusal  of course must be respected.
Any form of pressure or insistence after that point is a form of harassment. Additionally, holding a grudge or seeking revenge against the woman through any other plot is also a form of harassment.

Furthermore, I believe that Amos loses all rights and privileges to make crude remarks or advances towards the woman. Positive discrimination is required to protect the woman's right to feel safe and respected. Even if the situation escalates via a completely separate plot and independently of the initial sex offer, Amos should never initiate aggression towards the woman.

We can never know if Amos's player has a hidden agenda of seeking revenge against the woman (or her player) for rejecting him. Therefore, such immunity should be given to the woman.

Pretty much this, and make it apply to everybody: it should not matter if the perpetrator is male/female/androgynous, nor does it if the victim is either. Because anybody can be sexually harassed by anyone, regardless of gender. Just don't be creeps, and if you decide to be so even after a warning regardless of whether it's simply in-character for your toon or you yourself are one, then don't be butthurt when the appropriate punishment is handed. Consent is sexy, guys, gals, and non-binary pals.

[Tuannon]

If you are not happy with how a scene is playing out, you have the right to OOC as much and probably wish up for overwatch in how to pull out of it without any implications on yourself.

The reality is usually but not quite the same though. The scene that would have been a touch up against your will becomes a murder or a social down scaling to the point they may have well murdered you. Personally, I feel like the issue is related to the weakness of plot greed, but I don't have a solid solution for it as people see 'bad play' and take on those habits themselves.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

Can I be the first to say I'd like to be sexually harassed by the female players as penance for my fellow players misdeeds?

I admit, I'm pretty new. For a game where there isn't supposed to be OOC communication and metagaming I've read alot of things that lead me to believe that it's done with high frequency. I literally don't know any of you, at all, so I'd say my opinion here is pretty unbiased but, alas, I'm a dude, a man, all that. I don't have the perspective of a woman on this subject, and I have a pretty crude and dark sense of humor, so please, harass me. But, I dislike the whole mudsex thing. I don't read romance novels, so why would I be sitting here writing one? It's not so much that I dislike the actual making of a scene like that, it's that I don't know what weirdo is sitting on the other side of that PC. Anytime I've been put in a situation where I was uncomfortable, I had the option of getting out someway (Fade to black, etc). Have I been put in scenes where I might have got a tad uncomfortable OOCly, where I kinda didn't even want to take part in it? Yup. However, I haven't seen anything in my almost two years here that I would label as devastating enough to harm me in some manner OOCly. Whatever other players got going on with the Staff and shit, that's them. My experience hasn't had any negativity in it thus far (from staff, you guys in game are fucking ruthless). I'd go as far as to say that in general it has been a pleasant experience in my short but growing Arm career.  This could be because I'm a dude and no one wants to openly sexually harass and fuck me? Lmao! I don't know, I've always felt pretty. I am pretty. Say I'm pretty.

But in general nobody should be put in a situation where they're uncomfortable on an OOC level, but if the situation is a legitimate IC situation and you can't handle it, convey that, and get out. Nobody is keeping anyone here. You can disconnect just like the rest of us. It is shitty though if someone keeps pestering you and is doing actual harassment after you stated how uncomfortable you are and want out.

[Tailong]

Okay so first off, yes men and woman in Armageddon are completely equal in all ways.  Second of all, people should leave their Earthly social morals at the door.  This isn't earth and your morality doesn't always work here. This is a world where slavery is a socially accepted norm, murder is a slap on the wrist in most places and corruption is also socially acceptable and highly encouraged.

If you don't like what's happening, ooc and log out.  Don't log back in until Admins fix the issue. It's pretty simple. Consent must be given, and simple sexual comments are not sexual harassment. It's a game. You are not being sexual harassed, your character is.  Separate the two and you have a much better experience.  If in doubt, log out. 

[Delusion]

If any reasonable person is trying to discern if something that looks like sexual harassment is, in fact, sexual harassment, it almost certainly is sexual harassment. Quibbling over the particulars is weird.

The only appropriate response to sexual harassment, as a very well-established practice across MU*s as a whole, is the immediate removal of the perpetrator from the game. Doing anything less is to tacitly condone such behaviour.

[valeria]

The original post in topic seems to put two distinct things together into one topic: gender-based discrimination, and sexual harassment.

Gender stuff

Different genders being treated differently doesn't happen just from men to women or because of intentional sexism. You can't expect things that have been fed to you by society since you were too young to form complete sentences to disappear just because you know that they're wrong or not appropriate to a setting. Seriously, presumed male toddlers and presumed female toddlers are treated differently in terms of how they're disciplined. The best thing to do is to examine yourself and actively fight against any implicit biases you might have.

I've played male characters, female characters, and other characters, and they're treated differently. They just are. I don't feel like anyone is deliberately doing it, it's just something that happens because, again, people have been trained to treat people of certain genders a certain way.

I've seen 'you fight like a girl.' That was immediately pushed back against IC.

I've seen a man being forced to wear a skirt as some sort of punishment, and people making fun of him for it. I don't think that would happen today, and if it did, I'd point out that it's not consistent with documentation.

Sexual harassment stuff

Sexual harassment is when a person makes unwanted or inappropriate sexual advances toward another person. It's generally recognized that sexual advances being made from a person in power (a supervisor at work/a staff member) to a person without power (an employee/a player) aren't appropriate. The usual problem is that you can't know what sexual advances are unwanted until they've been made. At that point, if you're turned down, you need to stop making them.

I've been on the fringes of what appeared to be a character being pressured by a character in power to have sex with the power character, or else. I didn't say or do anything about it because I lacked information about whether that was actually going on. But if I was in that situation, I'd put in a player complaint.

If you're involved in something like that by another player character, put in a player complaint. If you feel like you've been wrongly harassed by staff presently or in the past, put in a staff complaint. It doesn't matter whether it's from a staff or another player. It's just not appropriate.

However, you should put in a complain sooner rather than later. We generally presume that people are innocent until proven guilty in part because it's hard to prove a negative (it's a lot easier to prove that someone is guilty than to prove that they're not guilty), so it needs to be looked into right away. The problem with trying to investigate stuff that happened in the past is that it's what we'd call 'stale' in lawyer circles. A lot of the evidence just isn't going to be there for anyone to look at. And without evidence, you're reduced to just going on vibes.

As far as 'oh just remove the accused person from the game,' in the employment context, people don't get fired just because someone made an accusation against them. Someone makes a complaint to human resources, supervisors look into it, and steps are taken, because when someone doesn't like someone else and office politics get involved, it's very easy for a person feeling aggrieved to make an unpalatable accusation (they pee in the employee shower, they're harassing me, pick something unacceptable and gross) in order to try to provoke a response and get the person they feel aggrieved by punished. In the employment context, the process is a complaint to human resources. In this game, the processes are player or staff complaints.

[CalmThyPalm]

Can I be the first to say I'd like to be sexually harassed by the female players as penance for my fellow players misdeeds?

I admit, I'm pretty new. For a game where there isn't supposed to be OOC communication and metagaming I've read alot of things that lead me to believe that it's done with high frequency. I literally don't know any of you, at all, so I'd say my opinion here is pretty unbiased but, alas, I'm a dude, a man, all that. I don't have the perspective of a woman on this subject, and I have a pretty crude and dark sense of humor, so please, harass me. But, I dislike the whole mudsex thing. I don't read romance novels, so why would I be sitting here writing one? It's not so much that I dislike the actual making of a scene like that, it's that I don't know what weirdo is sitting on the other side of that PC. Anytime I've been put in a situation where I was uncomfortable, I had the option of getting out someway (Fade to black, etc). Have I been put in scenes where I might have got a tad uncomfortable OOCly, where I kinda didn't even want to take part in it? Yup. However, I haven't seen anything in my almost two years here that I would label as devastating enough to harm me in some manner OOCly. Whatever other players got going on with the Staff and shit, that's them. My experience hasn't had any negativity in it thus far (from staff, you guys in game are fucking ruthless). I'd go as far as to say that in general it has been a pleasant experience in my short but growing Arm career.  This could be because I'm a dude and no one wants to openly sexually harass and fuck me? Lmao! I don't know, I've always felt pretty. I am pretty. Say I'm pretty.

But in general nobody should be put in a situation where they're uncomfortable on an OOC level, but if the situation is a legitimate IC situation and you can't handle it, convey that, and get out. Nobody is keeping anyone here. You can disconnect just like the rest of us. It is shitty though if someone keeps pestering you and is doing actual harassment after you stated how uncomfortable you are and want out.

Come to the Pah, and I'll tell you you're pretty. /lh /j

[KakkarotYaBoi]

Can I be the first to say I'd like to be sexually harassed by the female players as penance for my fellow players misdeeds?

I admit, I'm pretty new. For a game where there isn't supposed to be OOC communication and metagaming I've read alot of things that lead me to believe that it's done with high frequency. I literally don't know any of you, at all, so I'd say my opinion here is pretty unbiased but, alas, I'm a dude, a man, all that. I don't have the perspective of a woman on this subject, and I have a pretty crude and dark sense of humor, so please, harass me. But, I dislike the whole mudsex thing. I don't read romance novels, so why would I be sitting here writing one? It's not so much that I dislike the actual making of a scene like that, it's that I don't know what weirdo is sitting on the other side of that PC. Anytime I've been put in a situation where I was uncomfortable, I had the option of getting out someway (Fade to black, etc). Have I been put in scenes where I might have got a tad uncomfortable OOCly, where I kinda didn't even want to take part in it? Yup. However, I haven't seen anything in my almost two years here that I would label as devastating enough to harm me in some manner OOCly. Whatever other players got going on with the Staff and shit, that's them. My experience hasn't had any negativity in it thus far (from staff, you guys in game are fucking ruthless). I'd go as far as to say that in general it has been a pleasant experience in my short but growing Arm career.  This could be because I'm a dude and no one wants to openly sexually harass and fuck me? Lmao! I don't know, I've always felt pretty. I am pretty. Say I'm pretty.

But in general nobody should be put in a situation where they're uncomfortable on an OOC level, but if the situation is a legitimate IC situation and you can't handle it, convey that, and get out. Nobody is keeping anyone here. You can disconnect just like the rest of us. It is shitty though if someone keeps pestering you and is doing actual harassment after you stated how uncomfortable you are and want out.

Come to the Pah, and I'll tell you you're pretty. /lh /j

I'm getting a masochist kinda vibe. 

[Malken]

Nevermind, it's not my fight.

[Dar]

I'll likely echo what was said by others here.

Someone says "You fight like a girl".  That is totally against theme and the player should at first be educated and punished of they persist.

Someone being crude like a sailor, adding numerous explicitives in their language that are while sexual, are gender neutral?    That's just your regular drunken Bynner/Rinther/Zalanthas dweller. 

Aside that, there are trigger instances.  For example, when someone's behavior, while totally up to docs and ment to be explicit/crude/unpleasant, is making a player themselves uncomfortable.  While there is no fault to the one doing it, I think special allowances should be granted.  Whether requested via ooc say, or a wish up request to staff to privately ask the player of the crude character to dial it down somewhat.

Just be fair in this instance.  If your character is somehow under authority of the crude person and you can't leave without breaking character, then leaving is not an option.

But if you(generic you) entered a room, or are eavesdropping on a conversation and it's being crude and explicit, in my opinion, the onus to remove yourself from that interaction is on you(generic you).

Stuff like repeated persecution, regardless of gender, is a bit of a grey area.  It's harassment in my opinion and a grevious act IRL. Because often the target of the harassment has limited recourse on how to handle it without damage to themselves.

In game?  I've observed (maybe even been a part of) of some very heavy consequences when a character went "This fool just won't fuck off, they keep waying me how they want to fuck me".

I saw a templar on stand by to pardon everyone when a troop of bynners came in and insta ganked a dude.

Being Crude != sexual harassment. in my opinion.  Otherwise people like Gaige Gritshaw would not be remembered in history.


Ultimately sexual harassment is a complex topic. The shitshow (literally) between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard demonstrated it pretty well.  That harassment and intention to hurt others transcends genders.

[DesertT]

Note that Wikipedia includes 'coercion' and 'abuse of power' as two ways that rape can be carried out. We are excluding these from our definition, as we feel they are part of the game world. Also, the rule of consent still applies as to how and if the sexual scene would be carried out.

[Pariah]

I think the rules could be updated a bit to specify what is allowed and what isn't.

I remember back when I started playing, it wasn't necessarily gender discrimination (She's a girl and weak) type stuff, it was pretty much overt, aggressive sexual pursuit that was uncomfortable as fuck.

And it wasn't just women, I play all men character, don't think I've ever had a female, might have, but I don't remember her, and I've had dudes (Long time ago, not recently) chased and pursued by other dudes hardcore to the point I didn't feel comfortable logging in or staying logged in.  Now granted I didn't complain I just was weirded out by how hardcore they went at it.  I'm a fade to blacker all day, so even if someone tries it with more suave and my character is down it's gonna be a ooc Fade to black, I fucked you so good!

I think the first step if any of this is still going on would be to OOC Hey I don't feel comfortable with the way you're doing X and Y, can you please stop?  As I am a strong believer in solving things at the lowest level.

Now if homeboy/girl keeps it up after that?  Wish all SoandSo is being a creep, I've asked him to stop, he's ignoring my ooc request. and file a player report.

It's hard though because there are different types of players, some players could give two shits, they have skin thick as bahamet shell, others have skin the thickness of tissue paper, and that's just how humans are, no shade.  Some folks get bothered by shit more than others.  I think that's why it's important to have hard and fast rules with no room for interpretation on subjects like this.

[Jimpka_Moss]

I've lost faith in whatever this is

[Kavrick]

Playerbase, the gendered insults bitch, pussy, and cunt don't belong in Arm. They're not insults if you're not sexist. Please cut it the fuck out, I'm so disappointed.

I just wanted to quickly reply to this part. Keep in mind that the whole thing of gendered insults in regards to these words is a far more american thing than anywhere else. In places like new zealand, england and australia, they are not gendered insults as much as calling someone a 'dick' or a 'scrotum' is an insult. I would say that bitch can be considered a gendered insult as the meaning is completely different on whether or not you're calling a male or a female a bitch, but dick/cunt/asshole/prick are all pretty much completely interchangable at least in my own culture. Cunt is also a very common insult in the english/australian culture so it can be kinda annoying to have american standards applied to it. I mean in particular, cunt can even be used as an endearing, banter-y term between friends. 'alright cunt?' is a common greeting between friends both here in england and in austalia.

Just kinda wanted to say my peace because it's not the first time I've seen it come up.

[Veselka]

agreed, talking to an Australian in a casual setting for the first time can turn any American into a Puritan.

[Jimpka_Moss]

poor faith responder, self execute

[Kavrick]

(I believed) this used to be a place of prose, of art.

If the excuse is, 'Humans do it on Earth', you are excusing the tyrannical grip sexism has had on the Earth since our language and writing has existed.

I expect more from Armageddon, and it's players, and that's MY fault. The high-minded, lengthy research I do into psychology and sociology to provide you with realistic, well written responses to your 'Nah, me and my mates call each other cunt, 's fine' isn't a fair exchange.

Clearly, I should be playing another game. My expectations do not match reality, and will not.

Sorry but if you're going to say that it's sexist because of how it's used on earth but ignore that it's not used that way elsewhere I think that's a little one-sided. The language in game is the same as the language we use IRL, to try and completely disconnect them is unrealistic. Also to paraphrase my entire detailed explanation into "'Nah, me and my mates call each other cunt, 's fine'" Is both intellectually dishonest and poor faith. I'm going to leave it here because I have no desire to get into an argument but I thought I should at least reply to this.

[Jimpka_Moss]

poor faith responder, self execute

[Master Color]

I've seen players abuse sexist language to get under the skin of other players. It's disgusting and frankly the players who do/did this are trash.

Edit: cuz not bebop

[Jimpka_Moss]

Pretty sure Bebop is banned. I'm not Bebop, I'm Filthy_Grey_Rat, Walter_Schmalter, Raptor_Dan, Kevo, SickofDreaming, and probably some more over the years.

[Dar]

I am so lost.  Are people editing/having their posts deleted? Is Jimpka_moss/OP another gdb account of Bebops? What does Bebop has to do with this?




Jimpka_Moss. You really should stand firmer with your opinions. Other people have the right to think differently and it should be possible to express your opinions and those who disagree with you in a way that do not warrant GDB moderation. Posting, not liking other people's responses, and then editing/deleting your posts the way you did is passive aggressive as hell.  From your posts you seem to be a reasonable person. I think you could produce a post that's meaningful, even if there are others with opinions opposite to yours.

[Master Color]

Pretty sure Bebop is banned. I'm not Bebop, I'm Filthy_Grey_Rat, Walter_Schmalter, Raptor_Dan, Kevo, SickofDreaming, and probably some more over the years.

Muh bad.