Coded Disadvantages for High Karma Races

[LindseyBalboa]

Without karma regen there really is no reason to hold back and give high karma races easy outs to get around their disadvantages.

Muls - make the way they prevent raging not 100% effective unless they're doped out of their mind. And reflect that they're dangerous to those near to them and don't work in groups by having rage prioritize attacking anyone the mul is followed by, following, guarding, guarded by, or otherwise "grouped" with.

Half Giants- they don't even have a coded disadvantage besides "slower to one hit kill." All of their disadvantages are roleplay so enforce them as black and white as "elves can't ride mounts." It's a game so "half giants can't do things on their own" is realistic but not fun; what else can be done to reflect their mimickry, chaotic destruction everywhere they go, and unreliability? Because right now they're able to be independent household hunters and rangers and go off for a month and come back remembering what they were doing with unwavering precision.

A coded "whatever you are interacting with now is now your team" message that's enforced and pops up at a long but random interval?

Triple stamina use in combat? Stamina use for everything? Half the defense capability making them solely rely on HP and heavy armor? Triple the water and food requirements? Every Half Giant PC needs another PC somewhere to keep them in check?

[Jarvis]

Playing muls is already extremely limiting and isolating most of the time, and albeit I haven't played Half-Giants, I'd assume its something similar.

Gimping the classes is a very stilted bandaid approach to the issue that some people actively abuse them for combat.

The ultimate equalizer for combat really would be stamina drain and being outnumbered imo.

Edit: This may be an off-topic example, but I ran a Witcher Tabletop RPG a while back. The system has witchers as a race. They are overpowered in every way. However, fighting
multiple opponents has a very large margin of error for "you're dead", and every extra defence besides the person they were fighting cost stamina points, so it reached a point where
they were simply too exhausted to not be murdered.

Let someone be a badass swordmaster if they want to and be completely scary at 1v1. But let 3 middling dudes have a good very chance of skewering him.

[Riev]

No. The point of "high karma" races is that you've earned the trust from staff to play them properly. Why would I spend 20 years to play a mul if they come with coded DISadvantages?

I do agree that maybe HGs should have a little more of a disadvantage considering their karma level, but otherwise? No. That is not the point of Karma. If someone plays a Karma race poorly, submit a player complaint and let staff do what they've VOLUNTEERED TO DO. Stop limiting my play because someone else did not do as good a job as you wanted them to do.

If you don't like how that HG is playing? Just submit a player complaint. Its not a negative karma, its not a tattle tale, its just letting staff know to take a look at this person's play and see if it fits their design for an HG.

Where's the disadvantage to desert elves in your suggestion? What should their disadvantage be? Or is this just a veiled complaint about how over-tuned strength and two-handed are, and instead of that you want the races to be worse to play?

[LindseyBalboa]

High karma isn't about getting coded advantages, it's about being trusted to roleplay characters that are more and more outside the realm of 'normal' and 'integrated. Whether or not it takes the minimal 1.5 years or 20 years has no bearing.

Besides which, desert elves have a coded disadvantage - low strength - that's well documented; also a hard roleplay limitation that cuts them off from several areas of roleplay (not riding mounts) on top of the fact that, roleplay-wise, they're already disliked and discriminated against. My longest lived characters are city elves.

Not complaining about coded disadvantages or roleplayed disadvantages, and if you look back, I've posted several times about how elves are supposed to be weak physically (with a mild detour about climbing ability necessity). It's in the help file. However - other races also need to have severe disadvantages, as well.

They both already lack the social stigma. Maybe I played at some good times because I'm not sure how you ended up loneseome (edit: except internally. muls are definitely the most lonesome and isolated internally), I've played muls and a half giant, and muls are welcomed with open arms literally everywhere except Allanak and Tuluk. I had amazing roleplay everywhere I turned with my mul, and I love muls. I've memorably enjoyed almost every mul I've RPed with and don't remember any off-hand that I didn't like. But it was easy mode anywhere I went, people gave me gear, I had plenty of (redacted) at any given time to keep everyone else safe. And on top of that, even the low priority str stalker mul I had was a dumbass combat beast without having to try. They need more danger to them. It's barely an inconvenience with the new change, unless a mul is ambushed and also unlucky. They should be dangerous to everyone around them at all times.

My half giant had people fighting over him to join their combat clans within an hour played. There's no limitation at all on half-giant play, and that's not something that's extended to any other race or karma guild. There are not things half giants cannot do, they are only loosely-defined as a race, and there's no consequences to being the half-giant that does whatever they can, because it's not defined. I think the race needs that definition, just like other karma races have, to make them balanced and also because it's fun. There need to be very hard lines they will not cross and instant consequences for breaking that role.

As an aside, I definitely think multiple opponent penalties should be increased starting at 2 v 1, to account for realism, and also the miracle of coordinating a two person attack (let alone a four person). +1 to the idea.

[Lutagar]

i think rather than nerfing high karma races there should be more of a focus on making lower karma races more fun to play. over the last couple of years staff seem to have gone of their way to make playing mundane humans as unappealing as possible. to list a few examples:

nenyuk taxes
cures degrading and needing constant upkeep/replacement
the recent change to weapons gutting backstab
reducing the value of crafts available to indy's
stabling fees, armor repair, etc etc.

these sorts of changes seem to have come from a place of wanting to make it "harder" to play as an independent to force people into clans. it's kind of done the opposite and just made people not want to play mundane humans. no amount of stick is going to force people to play byn runner #248569.

[Narf]

i think rather than nerfing high karma races there should be more of a focus on making lower karma races more fun to play.

This is almost always the correct approach to this sort of scenario.

Find something fun for weaker combat characters to do that only they can do. Don't do it by just adding limitations to the other races either, generate new content for the weaker races instead.

[HammerofJericho]

Let nobles hire mundane characters outside of aides again.  Let GMH teams have hunters again. The cities need bonuses and benefits. Nobles generally are handcuffed in what they can demand or doing in a snobbish fashion. People just leave the city. I believe nobles should be NPC only at this point until cities get figured out.

[Inks]

Make Hgs 3 karma spec app only. Muls are fine as is, already extremely limited role. I feel HGs should be a lot rarer to see amongst the playerbase.

[Dar]

From my understanding.  There are too many advantages to playing roles outside of law abiding social norms/laws/rules/restrictions.

So people group up easier and feel more accepted outside the law. To a point where one feels more socially accepted as a mul/Nilazi then as a soldier mundane in a clan.

Ultimately we shouldn't do things to rob people of having fun. As fun is indeed the ultimate goal of playing any game.  But perhaps come up with advantages to playing inside the law abiding city ruled organizations where social stigma is significant.

currently for playing a wilderness hunter mundane:

Playing alongside the restricted races outside the scope of law: No disadvantages, lots of perks. Do whatever you like that makes things fun.

Playing alongside the 'socially accepted, law governed city mundane: Lots of regulations, chances of being maligned ridiculously, a lot of things one cannot do.


Are you really surprised mundane and non mundane live and love on the outskirts?

[Brisket]

It's also important to note that as PCs we are exceptions.  The idea of coded disadvantages to high karma races is a decent one but I disagree that muls don't already have a massive coded disadvantage - try playing a free mul sometime, your spice timers will SEVERELY limit your ability to do whatever you want.

The *sole* issue is with Half-Giants, who need to be 3k, special app.  They have power without oversight in a way that muls/sorcs/etc. don't, and that should be corrected.

[Dracul]

What is this, a hack and slash??

There are all sorts of IC benefits to being aligned with the sorcerer king, his city guard, and merchant houses.

One clear advantage is there is access to Salaar and no one else can codedly make as much good stuff as them.

There are a lot of advantages for characters that live in a walled city when they stay within those walls.

[BadSkeelz]

It's also important to note that as PCs we are exceptions.

This is protagonist-syndrome thinking that inevitably leads to doc flaunting or worse.

[Patuk]

What is this, a hack and slash??

There are all sorts of IC benefits to being aligned with the sorcerer king, his city guard, and merchant houses.

One clear advantage is there is access to Salaar and no one else can codedly make as much good stuff as them.

There are a lot of advantages for characters that live in a walled city when they stay within those walls.

So many benefits you can count soldier PCs on one hand, the PCs in any GMH on the other, that nobles perennially struggle to find employees, that the recent war showed just how gimped even an attempt at fighting wilderness nerds is..

Nah.

[dumbstruck]

What is this, a hack and slash??

There are all sorts of IC benefits to being aligned with the sorcerer king, his city guard, and merchant houses.

One clear advantage is there is access to Salaar and no one else can codedly make as much good stuff as them.

There are a lot of advantages for characters that live in a walled city when they stay within those walls.

So many benefits you can count soldier PCs on one hand, the PCs in any GMH on the other, that nobles perennially struggle to find employees, that the recent war showed just how gimped even an attempt at fighting wilderness nerds is..

Nah.

I literally never have the patience as a player to get out of 'crafter' into 'trader' stuff with gmhs, and if I'm literally just giving up all my customcrafts to not even be able to actually sell any of the cool stuff for an indeterminate amount of time, sometimes the entire life of a pc? Often after a year without pay ICly? Maybe 'shelter' isn't the perk you think it is when the Gaj offers it too. The only GMH I've been able to even conceive of earnestly having a PC try to join in OOC years has been Kurac because they start pay right away at least. I think that's a problem with the GMH roles though, not with the other roles that are actually appealing by comparison.

[Brisket]

It's also important to note that as PCs we are exceptions.

This is protagonist-syndrome thinking that inevitably leads to doc flaunting or worse.

No, that's a crazy thing to say.  You're not a vNPC, you're a PC.  Other PCs are also exceptions - you should still play the docs, they're important, but the vast majority of actual people in Allanak/Tuluk will never leave the gates. Most PCs will.

[Riev]

It is a misnomer to say PCs are the exception.

Our PCs were vNPCs until we decided to inhabit them. They should have been doc-following virtual members of the community already.

[Dar]

how is PCs being the exception relevant to the issue?

[Jimpka_Moss]

I have thought about it, and I have a suggestion for the coded disadvantages:

Encumbrance, armor weight, and weight in hands should all be factors in how well magick can be used.