Flippable Weapons Change

[Windstorm]

So one of the notes I read was regarding flippable weapons!

I have to admit I felt a little disheartened to see they were penalized for being flippable. They're rare and typically - that I've seen! - well-crafted enough for the penalty to seem kind of odd to me.

That they just have a penalty to damage for basically no reason but having an extra function felt very odd and maybe even out of place to me. It just makes a rare and interesting weapon type seem suddenly unappealing.

How does everyone else feel about this footnote in what were otherwise really interesting comprehensive changes to weapons?

[creeper386]

Is a swiss army knife useful? Sure. Is it the best knife for any one particular situation, not really.

[Veselka]

I think with the exception of like, Northern Templar Lirapets, it makes sense.

[Tailong]

I have recently used a flippable, and really cannot tell the difference, so you will never know.

[Brisket]

Seems fine, a weapon built to work more than one way makes a small sacrifice for the extra usability.  Makes perfect sense to me - maybe the haft isn't balanced 100% correctly, maybe the slicing surface is a little shorter, etc.

[WarriorPoet]

Sacrifices must me made for pimp factor.

[Veselka]

Sacrifices must me made for pimp factor.

That's your epitaph my man.

[Tuannon]

The issue is a weapon with multiple damage types needs to be heavily scrutinized, particularly if you can use it for riposting AND shield wrecking or whatever.

I'd leave it a few weeks to let all the new implementation stuff settle and then look at it again, personally.

[Kaathe]

Flippables usually had some offset for the fact they were flippable. Maybe one side was heavily nerfed. Maybe they had skill penalties. We needed a way to penalize them fairly without having to look at each and every one that existed because they are not rare despite what you've seen.

Why do we need to penalize them at all?  Because now it's an interesting choice. Do you save the weight and sheathe slots of carrying two weapons for two damage types by combining them into a flippable at the small cost of damage, all other things equal? Different characters will make different decisions on this for different reasons. And that's ideal. If there was no penalty at all, then there would be no interesting choice. Everyone would run flippable if all other things were equal.

I could champion some other type of penalty besides a penalty to both sides, but I don't know what. This seems pretty fair and realistic to me and I was onboard for the change in the internal discussions.

[lostinspace]

I understand the change from a fairness and playability perspective, I dislike it because from here on out when I see a flippable weapon I'm just going to think of it as subpar and probably avoid it.

[Brokkr]

There were three scripts that allowed one to flip weapons.  One specifically for slashing/bludgeoning,  one for piercing/bludgeoning, and one that you could designate which weapon types the weapon switched between.

The first two already applied a malus to bludgeoning.  The weapon dice for the third were rarely the same for both sides.

So it isn't quite as clear cut that they got nerfed.  First, damage to match category was already going to happen, so you have to discount that part, as that has nothing to do with the flippable nature of the weapon.  Second, in the case of the first two scripts the bludgeoning side is better now than it was.  In the case of the third script, it could go either way.  So all of that is standardized now, and it is impossible to actually say, especially in a blanket way, that the weapons are worse than before.

[Rojer]

I think it makes sense. Versatility in exchange for power

[Pariah]

Flippable weapons are good but always struck me as a sorta meta driven.

One weight of a weapon, for two combat learning paths.

Sure I get they are useful in various situations, but it always seemed like it was gimmicky and designed simply for folks looking to their their failures easier with bludgening/slashing or whatever.

[Tailong]

Flippable weapons are good but always struck me as a sorta meta driven.

One weight of a weapon, for two combat learning paths.

Sure I get they are useful in various situations, but it always seemed like it was gimmicky and designed simply for folks looking to their their failures easier with bludgening/slashing or whatever.

Actually, I think they were pulled directly from Dark Sun, as weapons there have multiple uses.

[FantasyWriter]

I think they're badass and reflect reality.

Imaging having a spear where you had 0 chance of ever whacking someone upside the head with any part of the weapon other than the sharp tip of the head.  Or a sword where you had 0 chance of ever impaling anyone with the sharp tip because someone decided swords should only be used on one particular type of motion.  I am all for them having balancing factors (increased weight or lower rolls on their secondary end).

[Pariah]

Just sharing an opinion, not saying they should be removed or whatnot.

I've only seen maybe a handful of them anyways in my days, so it's not like it's a massive issue.

[lostinspace]

it always seemed like it was gimmicky and designed simply for folks looking to their their failures easier with bludgening/slashing or whatever.

Well in that regard doing less damage is preferable. The first person to MC a flippable training weapon is going to be rich. Useful for practicing two styles and does less damage on average than a non-flippable sparring weapon.

[Hauwke]

I think they're badass and reflect reality.

Imaging having a spear where you had 0 chance of ever whacking someone upside the head with any part of the weapon other than the sharp tip of the head.  Or a sword where you had 0 chance of ever impaling anyone with the sharp tip because someone decided swords should only be used on one particular type of motion.  I am all for them having balancing factors (increased weight or lower rolls on their secondary end).

I mean, I personally emote using a longsword to it's full potential, nevermind it can only codedly be used for slashing. It's just part of the suspension we put into the game.

Occassionally, a swinging sword is used to stab a bitch upside the head. I see nothing wrong with this.

[Veselka]

I think also it presents versatility in combat when you are facing someone who might better defend against one weapon type. You can flip to the other, see if you get traction, and dig in.