Author Topic: Game Feedback Wanted  (Read 8436 times)

RavingTregils

  • Posts: 22
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2021, 06:19:29 AM »
What are some changes you think would benefit the game and draw more people - new and returning?

I'm just going to throw one more thing out there.
Get someone on staff who is good at dealing with the public.
Don't wait for problems to boil over onto the GDB, "the bad place" or reddit.
If someone is sending in complaints, diffuse the situation early.
Don't dismiss them, make them feel valued. In a dwindling supply, they ARE precious.

I keep reddit around for FFXIV but also check r/mud now and then.
You may get angry when the mysterious one (or ones?) invariably posts some nonsense review or fake family roll call.
I just feel sad about it. A person is clearly hurting enough to want to strike out, for many YEARS! They would do themselves a favor if they could let go.
I can't imagine carrying that much baggage around in my head, over a game.
Get someone who has the skills to deal with upset customers, find them and fix it before it spirals out of control.

It's good for the game. It's good for players too.

Fenneko

  • Posts: 109
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2021, 11:43:32 AM »
The problem with this game is that some roles become too unenjoyable to RP as,  in a world (RL) where you have limited hours to play, and those hours spent don't "give back" emotionally, creatively, or objectively -- depending on player/character motivation and goal.

Have frequently seen posts about "isolation," or "dealing with isolation," or "getting past the grind," "being unable to achieve a goal," or several other things that hit a common theme of the hours spent don't lead to enjoyment in some way. I don't care about grinding/growth/competition but other players do and that's great, but if the process is not rewarding, it's a problem.

The solution would be to, I think, loosen things that "worsen" the social isolation of certain roles, or the grind of developing a character, and so on. Other posters have hit on those themes before. if staff focus too much on the trees I think, then they might miss that the common theme, and the common goal, would be to give players more 'freedom,' or 'leeway,' or 'trust,' whichever words are used to hit at the same core idea.

CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1145
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #127 on: October 07, 2021, 03:57:11 AM »
I wanted to write something here too.  There were a lot of good thoughts in this and I wanted to touch on more in my reply, but here's my remix of some of the posts in this thread.

> It's my favourite game.

Yep.  One day I'll be back.  I made two posts today.

> I know people enjoy crafting, but I don't. There's a huge emphasis on crafting

Agreed, and I liked foraging a bit more than I liked crafting, but many of these systems -- and other systems like dung shoveling -- are imo boring and predictable and low-risk ways for players to make money by themselves.  In my day (!) you used to have to find employment, hunt (good luck), steal, beg, or run around outside the gates hoping to find a dead body before you became one yourself.  Making money was risky and money had way more value.  For context, the free food in the Byn used to be a really really big deal.

> #1 I dislike[d] the new classes [and miss] classes where you
> knew you could be the best at what that class was specialized
> for.

I'll disclose I haven't played any of the new classes, but I agree with this.  Specialization meant higher replayability and less re-experiencing the same grind from one character to the next, unless you wanted to.  To me, the new classes felt indistinct and oddly named due to there being so many of them in addition to subguilds.  These names even (used to?) be inaccurate, as in pilferer wasn't even the best thief for example.  It also seems to be hard for staff to tweak and iterate on the classes and their names without affecting living characters, which is problematic for finding the right balance.

The magick subguilds probably help with replayability, but they turn magick into this 'oh by the way' sort of thing and have apparently eroded the taboo of magick due to being commonplace.  (Sometimes I wish players didn't get to choose ahead of time whether or not their character was magick or not; instead they could opt-in at a certain karma level, but it would be a rare/random curse that ate away their proficiency with other skills, and a randomized system would help keep magick truly rare.)

> I'm trying to play a collaborative storytelling game and others are playing PVP sim.

I don't know what the solution to this one is.  I think people care about longevity nowadays a lot more than they did in the olden days, or at least I do.  (Probably because in the olden days -- before you could see skill levels -- I assumed all my skills were about at master after 10 days played; the average player played more consistently so it was easier to jump back into a story; etc.).  It would be interesting if killing was more like crossing a line, like a murderer (someone who killed within the 'civilized' races) somehow made for juicier mindbending/magick victims.  So you'd have an actual coded incentive to keep your hands clean if you, too, wanted to live a long time.
The neat, clean-shaven man sends you a telepathic message:
     "I tried hairy...Im sorry"

Dracul

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Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #128 on: October 07, 2021, 07:48:04 AM »
"Find out IC"

Get rid of that. Completely.

Compromise? Make documents and lore accessible via a karma point, or a half karma point.
Veteran Newbie

Dar

  • Posts: 1809
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #129 on: October 07, 2021, 10:22:02 AM »
"Find out IC"

Get rid of that. Completely.

Compromise? Make documents and lore accessible via a karma point, or a half karma point.

You know, Staff often give away IC lore and information if it looks like a character should be aware of it.  I've gotten some fancy details and knowledge about stuff simply by sending in a question in a request tool going, "Hi. I'm creating a character that grew up in the commoner quarter, could you tell me more about that celven tribe that lives on the rooftops?" type of thing.

Halaster

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Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #130 on: October 08, 2021, 07:53:09 PM »
I feel like this has been open and available for a good while now to the point we're going to start internally discussing some of this among staff.  I'm not going to close this thread as we're still open to feedback, especially from people who don't play much or at all.  But I think the main momentum has slowed down and we've got a good feel for common feelings.

Yes, we're going to post some data once we get it all sorted.  And this is definitely going to be the main topic for Sunday's staff/player meeting.
Halaster


flurry

  • Posts: 3369
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #131 on: October 09, 2021, 02:21:03 PM »
I haven't been playing much lately and only occasionally checking in on the GDB, but I definitely wanted to respond here.

When reading through this thread, I read a lot of posts that I can very much relate to about time. For me, that's the biggest factor in not playing much. The game tends to feel like there's a huge difference in how the game is experienced if you play a lot versus if you play a little. Not just in skill progression but in making connections with other characters and just generally being involved.

But I wanted to offer an example that I didn't notice anyone mention. This certainly isn't the most important thing and for some this might seem quite trivial. But one of the many ways that the game favors higher playtimes is the way that apartment rentals work. A character's resources often are a function of how many time the player spends in the game. Rents, however, don't account for this (and I'm not sure how they would, if things were set up differently). Yes, it is possible for someone playing low playtimes to afford an apartment. But, ironically, it means much of your time in game needs to be focussed on earning rent. And some roles really depend on having an apartment. I had a character I enjoyed but I fell into a pattern where I was logging in mostly to craft enough to pay my character's rent, so I could keep an apartment, in the hopes that I would have more time to play soon. Once it finally dawned on me that this "soon" was not really on the horizon, I felt like the only sensible decision was to store the character.

I appreciate this discussion and look forward to whatever changes it generates.
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream." - Shirley Jackson, The Haunting of Hill House

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 419
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2021, 02:24:03 PM »

Hello, it's Sprinkles.

I like this game in some aspects, but I know that it is a bad fit for me and I will not be returning. It has even been told to me that it is a bad fit for me, and so there is no point in coming back.

This is a feedback thread, so I'm going to give it publicly and honestly, and it pertains to the topic that was brought up in "The Allanak Problem" thread. My third character Paxter/Jump was a human ranger with a Vividuan mage subguild. I didn't know much about the game at all, so I decided to plop him down into the Rinth so that I could learn about and explore. 

I had a lot of fun, at first, and was meeting lots of interesting people and learning the rough and tumble ways, figuring out how to survive with little to no food. My character reports were upbeat, even when met with the harsh realities of gameplay. Joined the Guild, started learning from folks, got assignments, I didn't know anything about anything, and most people grocked this and helped me out.

A member of the AOD accused my character of theft and it led to my character having a finger removed by a Templar. I decided to have my character show signs of manifestation at this time. My character was gemmed, and immediately began being punished through it repeatedly. It became this Templar's favorite new method of interacting with my character.

Later, as I got settled in to the quarter, a member of the AOD demanded money from my character that he didn't have. They said that they would lie about him to a templar, and he said he already had a finger removed, they said it could get worse. This was when I was trying to get a bar set up in the Quarter and have a general card game run. The same day, my character's eye was removed by the Templar, and said Templar was screaming at my character to shut up, not allowing them to speak. And yes, the gem torture was used.

At this point, I'm wondering why I'm being focused on so hard. Yes, the game is harsh, but this is ridiculous and not fun. I had kind of admired the Templar's roleplay at first, but this was depressing and awful. I didn't want to be around them.

Mind, I'M STILL A NEWBIE. I have no idea how to ride to Red Storm, or Luirs, or anywhere else on my own. I didnt mind the gem, at first, because I thought that the Quarter would be a safe-ish place to learn how to be a mage, even though it would be a marginalized experience. I saw that bar as a sort of blank slate that was being underutilized. Maybe new players could go there and get assistance in an in-game way? I pitched the idea to an Oashi Lord, and he backed it, though my being Rinthi didn't help. He supported me at the time.

The problem, was the Templar constantly targeting me. I was miserable.

I was taken on sewer missions, being called stupid, and generally being threatened. The straw that broke the camels back, was when the Templar called me in to the Vividuan Quarters, used the gem on my character, had me light a tube of spice that another character had left there previously, and stamped it out on my character's face. I was in shock, and went along with the scene, but I had not given consent for this last bit at all. It was only afterwards that I snapped out of it and thought that I didn't have to take that crap and stored. I thought that it was unfair that I had to give up a character that I liked to get away from that abuse.

I couldn't even get a merchant token without being forced to deal with that Templar. The GM in charge would't let me. The requests I submitted had a reply saying that I had to go out and be in the public eye for that level of nonsense. I felt so sorry for the mage that I sent off to be gemmed when I was a Kadian Overseer. I think that character ended up doing well, but people, do better.

This, is why I reacted so strongly in regards to involuntary maiming and torture in this game. If people are not 100% on board, or you target the same person over again, or someone just leaves the area. Maybe consider why.

In the end, the onus to not play is on me. I like most of you very much, and miss you, but I chose not to play.
Smooth Sands,
Maristen Kadius, Solace the Bard, Paxter (Jump), Numii Arabet, and the rest.

triste

  • Posts: 1302
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #133 on: October 17, 2021, 03:31:08 PM »
First, sorry you went through this.

I'm not going to argue with anyone about any of this, but someone asked "how we can do better," and I appreciate a clear question so here are two clear possible solutions. Neither of these solutions are meant to disparage Sprinkles in any way.

[1] Make consent rules clear to everyone, front and center, and well enforced.
Quote
"I was in shock, and went along with the scene, but I had not given consent for this last bit at all."
When this happened, the Templar broke the rules. Period. Templars need to be EXTRA VIGILANT about asking for consent because of the immense power they hold. I had a Templar cut my character on the face in their very first meeting, but this was preceeded, a good 2-3 emotes before hand, with clearly stating that the scene may "be  uncomfortable and involve coercion, or a feeling of it because of the power differential at hand. Do you consent to RP?" That isn't a direct quote, but it was an extremely good consent request and even mentioned the power differential at hand. ALL Templars need to be vigilant about this. Again, this Templar broke the rules, and this scenario should have stopped with the Templar OOCing, "Consent to a scene that might lead to mutilation and torture?" and you choosing to OOC "I do not consent."

There are also borderline cases, where the Templars do not need to ask for consent. In borderline cases like this you should consider your character having some leeway in guiding the scene, since they aren't being coerced. I had a Templar do something which felt like coming on to my character, including emotes with all his fancy gems and silks and rippling muscles. My character noticed it, and said clearly she wasn't interested and that she was celibate, and the Templar stopped completely. This was my first character in about four years, and I am glad I made the decision to say no to that icky RP, and I am glad that Templar followed the rules and stopped his advances. My character proceeded to have a professional relationship with that Templar for a couple of IG years.

I was only able to do this because I had some experience. We need to put Consent rules up in front of new players as a post or similar so that they know the rules and can be safe. Similarly, Templars and Leader PCs need to be trained to ask for consent proactively, if not excessively.

[2] The option to have longer lasting newbie flags.
Quote
"Mind, I'M STILL A NEWBIE. I have no idea how to ride to Red Storm, or Luirs, or anywhere else on my own."

What I am about to recommend is not meant to be condescending to Sprinkles in any way. I imagine this player is a GREAT roleplayer if they were able to play a Magicker while still being a newbie. But the reason why Sprinkles felt trapped here why this dynamic seemed to get so out of hand was the fact that the player was new, didn't know of any means for escape, didn't have context to know how extreme this Templar was acting, and didn't know of other options. Maybe as long as a Player hasn't had a character in every starting location, or maybe up to a year into playing, or some other generous criteria, we should allow players to have a Newbie flag, which might prompt other players to be more vigilant about rules, explaining rules around consent, and stuff like that.

I'll shut up and not argue with anyone on this topic but just re-emphasize, I am sorry this happened to you Sprinkles, you sound like a great roleplayer, and you're always welcome back. You're smart and you already knew/know the solution here -- if you don't like roleplaying with power hungry sadists (Templars), try playing in Luir's and other places (as Patuk also just suggested). But I am so sorry that in the moment you were trapped without help here. You're also encouraged to file complaints about anyone who broke consent rules so that these roles are only filled by people responsible enough to play them.
ARMAGEDDON SKILL PICKER THING: https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/
message me if something there needs an update.

HavokBlue

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Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #134 on: October 17, 2021, 04:27:53 PM »
Disclaimer: Have not read this whole thread.

I started playing in 2010, have taken a couple breaks of varying length. My most recent break has been my longest after a string of characters I had a hard time getting invested in coupled with career and life changes eating up free time.

The primary factor that has dissuaded me from apping various characters I've thought up during those breaks is the time necessary to raise their skills to a level where they can adequately play the role envisioned for them. At the same time, I think there are aspects of the skill grind that bring a lot to the game - Armageddon is rare in that someone can really stand out as a legendary fighter. Your PC can become an absolute badass and I think that counts for something.

The reopening of Tuluk was what motivated me to start following the game a bit more and now I'm trying to dip my toes back in.

I think with the prevalence of roguelikes and tabletop roleplaying games in the last few years, there is an untapped well of potential players out there. Armageddon has gameplay and roleplay elements that we know are popular. MUDs aren't ever going to be the Cool New Thing again but I think they stand to benefit from these trends and the biggest barrier is a publicity one.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 419
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #135 on: October 17, 2021, 04:41:17 PM »
Thank you, Triste.

The game has a very steep learning curve. It actually took me a long time to figure out what I did learn in the time that I played. My first character was a merchant, based in Allanak. I didn't understand what people wanted from me until I watched how other people were behaving. One of my best examples was observing how when a noble was tipsy and tripped to the ground, an aide knelt beside her and began to comment on the stonework of the pavement. Noob me just stood there like a doofus, but this was a perfect example of what to do. I didn't understand it for the longest time, but I started to get it.

This goes too, for the brutality of the setting. When I played Paxter, I had the Oashi noble and the Templar as my examples. I didn't know how to play my role. They were both forceful in wanting my character's attention, but while I wanted to get far away from the Templar, the Noble went about things differently. He too sent a person from the AOD to "cajole" my character, but that person gave me, the player, the opportunity to give and take with the scene. I was able to choose how rough I could play, and he scuffed my character up, while actively holding back the blows, knocking him down. I didn't feel threatened, and it gave me an opportunity to figure things out.

Afterwards, my character tried to duck this noble mentally, but he was on him like lice on a bear. He wanted information, and he would gently threaten him with another visit. My character tried holding back information, but this man somehow knew. He said that he was feeding my character knowledge so that he would know when he was being played. It was fascinating, and I was hooked as a player. Suddenly, I was devoted, and wanted this story. He gave my character money for an apartment in the quarter, and food. He said that since I was a Rinthi, I wouldn't be his, and he couldn't fully protect me from the Templar, but he made sure that I had what I needed for the sewer missions. And he listened to me about the ideas for the bar. I really wanted to play all that out, but I was too bummed to stick around.

That was the story I wanted. I know it can't always play out that way, but I feel like I could have learned something and grown as a player. I didn't mind if I got knocked around a bit, just don't full on deliver abuse.

The Templar rarely gave me a chance, in character, to speak my mind. There is a definite culture in game that breaking character to OOC is bad so I held my tongue. Sometimes a person can also just freeze up when they are being yelled at. Give people room to breathe. I am thankful for people in leadership positions that understand this, because there have been those that have called halts to scenes to clarify when there may have been confusion. This happened between the Templar in question and a second Templar. I was not being given room to explain something that I could not help OOCly. The second Templar present called a halt to everything to allow me to OOCly protest that I could not do what was being asked of me, while I was being told to shut up in character.

Overall, I understand the game is harsh. But not everyone starts there, or may even know what that means, or has the same definition. My harsh will never be getting beaten up or yelled at, but it can be other forms. If I can't be protected by consistent rules, then this place will be kind of depressing. I'm sorry to make anyone sad, I really do love you guys, but this has been on my chest for a while. I felt kind of betrayed, and it made me hope that I haven't caused anyone else that level of upset. I played my character Maristen for five years, and I don't know if I caused anyone else that same level of disappointment. I wasn't a sponsored role, but I think that when you reach a certain point in the structure of a clan, you should try to help people have fun. I tried, and I hope you all had fun being Kadian Strong.
Smooth Sands,
Maristen Kadius, Solace the Bard, Paxter (Jump), Numii Arabet, and the rest.

Patuk

  • Posts: 4286
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2021, 04:58:29 PM »
Overall, I understand the game is harsh. But not everyone starts there, or may even know what that means, or has the same definition. My harsh will never be getting beaten up or yelled at, but it can be other forms. If I can't be protected by consistent rules, then this place will be kind of depressing. I'm sorry to make anyone sad, I really do love you guys, but this has been on my chest for a while. I felt kind of betrayed, and it made me hope that I haven't caused anyone else that level of upset. I played my character Maristen for five years, and I don't know if I caused anyone else that same level of disappointment. I wasn't a sponsored role, but I think that when you reach a certain point in the structure of a clan, you should try to help people have fun. I tried, and I hope you all had fun being Kadian Strong.

My friend, I hired on Maristen in the first place - if you've been driven off, I'll never not be sad. Your experience is valid, your complaints are fair, and only you can decide what you want to spend your time doing. Please don't feel bad for sticking to your own fun by not letting others ruin it.
Quote
You take the last bite of your scooby snack.
This tastes like ordinary meat.
There is nothing left now.

Halaster

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Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #137 on: October 17, 2021, 08:03:33 PM »
I removed a number of posts as this thread isn't for discussion of people's opinions.  Please break those out into other threads.  I left the ones that had some good content even if they were kind of off topic.  But let's try to stay on the topic of just the feedback, discussion in other threads.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 08:14:26 PM by Halaster »
Halaster


Rokal

  • Posts: 460
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #138 on: October 22, 2021, 01:10:56 AM »
Howdy, Folks, its been a minute.

I joined back in September of 2014, where I made my first character, Keyrena. in Tuluk, and it was a little less than a week ago that I learned Tuluk Reopened. My first character, is still my most long-lived and most hours played character. I had a blast with her, and it was a shame to see Tuluk close, but in playing Keyrena, I made friends - out of character. Naturally, people speak of the game out of character, and they shared many of their past experiences with the game, and in those experiences, many of those things were from long ago, with exciting lore, and many things that aren't possible back in 2014/2015, but not now.

There was never a clear answer on why, and I'll get back to that in a moment.

I played Keyrena for almost eight months, and it was amazing, a great learning experience, but now - seven years later, I still feel like I've only scratched the surface of this game.
So, I'll make it flat out: I love arm as a setting, as a game. Always will, even if I am inactive for a long period of time. I've returned, because I heard Tuluk had reopened.

So, lets get to it.

What are some of the causes that have made you play less or not at all?

Primarily Real life - its a main factor, but also a lack of an ability to stick to a single character concept after Keyrena.

A major part of this is from the fact there's a lot of Lore I want to explore, especially with magickers, but there's been a constant culture of being told, no, you won't be able to do that, staff will say no, and so on and so forth. The 'No' situation many have already mentioned. This goes back to the stories I mention I had been told. I, as (in my opinion) an inexperienced of armageddon, feel like I'm missing out on something amazing that is part of armageddon mud.

I truly, truly think the game would be much better off if staff were willing to let players more often -be the exception-, to -break- that glass ceiling and trust them, to enable player agency, and see where it goes.

I as a player like sinking my teeth into deep Lore, and I admit - due to the above of a nay-saying I got from players, and generally watching the conversations (sometimes even on the GDB) in the past, It kinda created the stigma that made me uncertain on if I should try, or not.

What are some changes you think would benefit the game and draw more people - new and returning?

I am of the side that thinks the new classes are a good thing, they open up much more diversity and feel like actual characters that build wide experiences, having high caps in specialty skills while other skills that help them do their specialty better, with subguilds adding plenty of flavor to said characters.

I love the magick subguilds, but I love the magick of armageddon MUD in general and often want to experience more of it, it enables characters to feel like genuine characters rather than a representation of magicker and nothing else.

But, I do think full guild elementalists should have remained an option. I mirror the comments of people who say there's been too much 'taken away' from the game. Reaches, etc, all of that stuff, some might say 'less is more', but when you take things that were already there, for veteran players, that means seeing less and less of what they remember, and when they share their stories with new players, they wonder why that can't be a thing anymore. (Like me)

This is more of a personal gripe, and one I imagine many won't disagree with. On Keyrena, she was a pickpocket, but her story had her join a combat clan, and she had abysmal strength and endurance, and all the RP, training, and the like of trying to grow stronger to make up for the limitations of the character. (Dont get me wrong, it was great playing out keyrena's shortcomings)

You, could not, for example, make an application to see if that character progression and change in their story could represent something mechanically. I've always been of the mind that a character changes and grows with a story, and while I wouldn't expect someone with poor strength to go up to good, or even above average strength, showings of a character's growth, in many ways should be supported.

One could say that's done in a characters skills, but if mechanics represent a character's progression, attributes matter too, as does a growing, learning character. From what I understand, this sort of thing is only really done if a characters stat is so crippling low its inhibiting their ability to play the game.

Essentially: Acknowledgement of a character's growth more than just in their defined, locked in main/subguild choices and attributes.

Transparency has been helping a lot, but I also Mirror a lot of other players suggestions of advertising, and reaching out to people, I mean, I bet there's a lot of creative players you could reach out to to even help with that.


What sort of things should do we more of?


I think I've already said what could be done, giving more player agency, more player trust, enable players to at least try to do something bigger, with staff oversight. Loose, if not shatter that glass ceiling, and enable players to become the exceptions with their characters.

The plots I've been involved in were tons of fun, and I will say I'm biased here, but I want to see more magick plots, some with stuff out in the open that even non-magickers can get involved in, and leave a mark on that character to create more plots. One of the best things I've seen done in open RP games with players is characters who are put in a situation and are given something to work with by the DMs/admins/staff then take that to create way more roleplay for others. The little push to kick something off.


What sort of things should we do less of?






"Find out IC"

Get rid of that. Completely.

Compromise? Make documents and lore accessible via a karma point, or a half karma point.

This, in the sense that its not helpful to anyone, nor gives them in hints or advise on how to find something out - sure, certain things require IC digging, and IC experience, but encouraging people and pushing them along to what they might need to do to learn something if its lore, or giving them clues, and something to Rp about just seems like the healthier option. This isn't only a staff thing though - even players fall into the trap of saying this, and boy have i said it lots. Its the blanket term for "I know, but I don't want to share, or don't think I should share."

-----------


Over all, that's what i got to say,  apologies if its long winded, but I'm glad to be back.

HavokBlue

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  • Posts: 6568
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #139 on: October 22, 2021, 05:07:20 PM »
I think Rokal makes a solid point about in-game lore. One of the things that grabbed me when I got into Arm was the sense that there is a vast body of knowledge about the setting to be uncovered. Obviously, a decade later, the dark corners of Arm lore are fewer and further between, but it's still part of the appeal for me.

I had characters try to seek out knowledge they couldn't get from other PCs and have been steered away from it by staff at the time, and I had characters do the same thing and be encouraged on that journey by staff at the time. I don't think because someone was told no to something once, we should always take that as an example of what is and is not possible always.

With that in mind, I think it's a subject that merits a little further consideration. We're all familiar with the timeless "Find out IC" line, but it can be frustrating to then try to find out IC and encounter OOC obstacles to that. Conversely, one of my most enjoyable PCs, Larkyn Salarr, was fascinated by ruins at Tyn Dashra and wanted to learn more. He resolved to fund an excavation of the Tyn Dashra site, with support from the Allanaki Templarate, and got support from the virtual Salarri family by guaranteeing any arms or armor excavated at the site would remain the sole property of House Salarr, for archival purposes and research into lost crafting methods. Before he died, he was in the process of arranging Byn contracts to protect the Salarri dig. The scheme, overall, involved 3+ clans and a wagonload of PCs, and my imms were generally supportive of it.

I totally understand why storytellers were more receptive to Larkyn's plots than they were to my second or third PC ever sending requests asking for information about random places in the Known, but I also recognize that it's a disservice to lore-focused players to restrict "find out IC" to the initiative of leadership PCs. In terms of addressing this, I think it's mostly a cultural thing and it will always vary from storyteller to storyteller.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Filthy_Grey_Rat

  • Posts: 5
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #140 on: November 01, 2021, 08:23:54 PM »
I was roughly 12 or 13 when I started playing arm, and while I know it was against the rules, it helped save my life. It's just a game, we've all said it, but that depends on the player. None of us are just players, or staff even. Some of my best friends, my lovers, my fondest worst enemies are you people.

The most frustrating things about Arm, for me, are simple, and mostly my fault. My imagination within it is dying. Can I..? Begins so many thoughts, dreams, hopes for arm. When I login, or consider the wildly varying anecdotal experiences on the forums, it's easy and now commonplace to go, 'Oh, no. I can't.' I'm thirty-five and I've never even tried to plant an object like seeds or cut branches to increase wildlife. I've never pk'ed a single player, that I recall, but I've been complimented on how well I RP a victim. That feels like Arm in a can sometimes.

I have brain damage now. Playing is new again to me though, so I threw away my karma account, because frankly, I think some of you would play/staff/storytell/RP worse if you knew who I was. Because newbies are often treated as precious oocly, and left //seemingly// helpless IC. I want my fellow players to feel precious to staff, I want my staff to feel appreciated, but as if we are all more than single char, throwaway storytellers and more part of the theme and arch. Convince me I have a chance to play a cool sorcerer leading a dusty army against a caravan trader daring to use the Byn to come through my territory. (Without half my life going by, just to make sure I can be trusted to play it right.) Make me believe someone was watching/caring those 4000 hours I was doing a DAMN fine job emoting while pointlessly grebbing just to earn the coin to get the gear to hunt the thing that will help me learn but not kill me which I spent four or five years testing and figuring it out only to get ganked by a tarantula BC my scan was so low.


Things have changed, coin for vets is now easy, easy, easy. It's even pretty easy for newbies to survive too. Survival is the current state of the game for anything not clanned, being static seems the state of every clan, unless it's just removed. don't change too much in the clan, so... Your char is either barely surviving, or in a fixed role. Mine, sorry, mine.

That's the momentum that WAS built, and must be defeated I believe, because I sense a lot of willpower being exerted in steering the player base towards the subtle, not so glaring (look, we fixed it, plz,.plz, pl, try again but like nobody mistreated you and without cheating) signs of change. I wanted every single thing on the last six pages or so of 'recent changes'.

This will be my last post that's structured the way I did things in the past. Be an example with me, play like it's brand freaking new. I've already forgotten who all of you are anyways, sorry that this happened to you.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2021, 08:33:42 PM by Filthy_Grey_Rat »

HavokBlue

  • Helper
  • Posts: 6568
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #141 on: November 01, 2021, 08:30:19 PM »
I've had my share of staff disputes and negative account notes as well, though fortunately I never did anything dumb enough as a teenager to merit a really serious black mark on my account.

Having recently got back into the game, +1 to the notion of trying to engage like it's new, if you've been away for a while.

I will say that if you feel like your Arm experience has been stagnant at any point in the last few years, there are a lot of new IC opportunities to be involved in interesting stuff what with reopening of some long-closed clans.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Dan

  • Posts: 2446
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #142 on: November 05, 2021, 03:45:04 PM »
I've waited to weigh in for a while now, as I am sort of a newly returned player after quite a while away. I started playing nearly 20 years ago, give or take, and Armageddon has been my primary or fallback game the entire time. Posting from my phone but will edit later.

What I have noticed in no particular order between about four years ago and now:
  • Player numbers have declined.
  • Options for leaders have been limited.
  • Long wait time for responses to requests or character reports.
  • A disgruntled player base.
  • A stay alive at ALL costs meta.
  • People hiding in clan compounds/no one goes to taverns anymore.
  • Increasing power cap/limitation on PCs.
  • Inability for PCs to make big decisions without reaching out to Staff first. We tried to lessen player influence on grand scales as an experiment, and I think it's failing.
  • Players feeling under the microscope/watched for bad behavior instead of honest interaction opportunities. Positive feedback appreciated IG and out.
  • Vacant places of in-game historic value (empty tombs, caves, old broken 'treasure chests')
  • Dangerous monsters are overly dangerous/overturned to most/all precluding 90% of exploration.

I admit I may very well be wrong about some of the above observations and some come from other players who are, while still at least playing, are disgruntled so please take with a grain of salt and not aimed at any one person in particular or even staff in general. A lot of this is just my off the cuff thoughts on what would be cool to see, or good to have for game health.

What would I do?
  • Empower your in-game leaders.
  • Raise power-caps and decision making abilities of PCs in GMH/Noble houses.
  • Re-introduce things people will want (magick/metal/lore items of value).
  • Re-populate those lost/ancient secret places with new wicked overlords & loot.
  • Embrace 'trap theory' - some events have moments/hours/days to be resolved or face consequences. Place a tangible solution in the game world not requiring staff to always assist with.
  • Embrace DnD style intervention sometimes. Storytellers, tell a story!
  • Automate some portions of grind. SOME. Proliferate those things which allow off-peak players to do something they see as productive (veterans, target dummies, etc.)
  • Limit effects of raw strength as a stat (looking at you, empowerment ruk dwarves).
  • Release more in-game lore, kick-off events with different groups that have competing interests.
  • Consider extrinsic threats, shake-ups, events that disrupt the dynamic.
  • Dissect motivations and dangle carrots for players/characters to pursue.
  • Intervene when any individual PC becomes overly game-world disruptive (not naming examples here but will send to staff if asked).
  • A re-focus on the harsh reality of the game world. It is not a happy place full of love, it is tragedy, danger, scary shit.
  • Fast response time to all requests. Don't push up through Producers and down and wait on IDB discussion to shake out for a week before responding to someone, at least initially.
  • Modernize the website, give it a re-design with some new art. Fix mobile access so it isn't as clunky.
  • When introducing new/explorable areas. Drop a hint in the pertinent chat boards, give some direction on what/where people so inclined can go looking.
  • Expand on fauna. New, unique threats that aren't based on insta-death (strength/numbers enemies).
  • Flatten leadership in player led clans. Allow them to meet the GMH leaders, the black robe pulling the red's strings passing by in the Templar quarter, the tribal head, etc. Take the Byn for example, there are only supposed to be approx. 500 or so of them, that's a small high school and we've never seen the principal.
  • Consider amnesty/call back to any/all players of the past who've had black marks on their permanent records. (I'm actually iffy on this one, but people change.).
  • Allow spec-apps for game-changing roles. Powerful PCs for responsible players that won't abuse the power, but will instead use it to generate plots and events.
  • Re-invent the character generation method to integrate more uses for karma (trust) to augment PCs. Wild talents, abnormal buffs (no-gang tags, special item on char gen, wild talent, etc.)

Some of this IS done but much isn't, and it's what I would love to see more of. I truly appreciate the recent approach staff has had, the events, the raw work that has gone into the game overall and love where it's going. The fact staff are asking for feedback and making changes is huge.

OH! PLAYERS!:
Some of this is on us. Go find roleplaying discord servers, youtube videos, local game stores, Role Playing twitch channels, and talk about Armageddon. Your favorite story, the best parts of Arm, and push them out there. We need to juice up the playerbase and find and hold onto every newbie you see and cherish them until they are on their feet.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 04:18:37 PM by Dan »
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Inks

  • Posts: 1548
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #143 on: November 06, 2021, 12:36:41 AM »
Great post, Dan, I definately feel many of the negatives were more prevalent a couple of years ago or a little for me, and it did affect my enjoyment of the game, and reduced the quality of my play, but I feel the game is very healthy at the moment, and am always recommending Arm when it comes up. I feel we actually have one of the best staffing teams out there, now, in terms of listening to players, and definately have my favorite codebase of any game I have ever played.

Players and staffers both are one of the most mature gaming groups anywhere, right now. And both player and staffer efforts are easy to see to bridge that gap, in the last year and a half especially.

Really glad to see you back, my man.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2021, 12:40:27 AM by Inks »
Quote from: Is Friday
Quote from: Synthesis
I hate to break it to you noobs, but penetration isn't the only way to achieve orgasm.Do I have to fucking explain everything here?
Tell me more about your Golden Standard of HG Mudsex RP

Lotion

  • Posts: 461
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #144 on: November 06, 2021, 02:06:12 AM »
Players with one or more maximum karma should be able to select extended subguilds even at zero out of one karma.
Quote
A staff member sends:
     "Hi, we don't need you to tell us EXACTLY what you are doing when you quit OOC.  We just need a vague reason.  Thanks."

triste

  • Posts: 1302
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #145 on: November 06, 2021, 08:36:32 AM »
Players with one or more maximum karma should be able to select extended subguilds even at zero out of one karma.

It isn't the end of the world if you have to play a zero karma character as someone who has karma sometimes.

Ironically my characters like this, which you might consider a "throwaway" due to lack of leet skillz, get a lot of kudos. Because this game actually is about roleplay not leet skillz.

I wont debate this anymore but at least the latest iteration of your idea is a bit better that the prior iteration (no karma cost for e subguilds would inevitably lead to a one karma gicker bonanza per Nash's game theory and opportunity cost).
ARMAGEDDON SKILL PICKER THING: https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/
message me if something there needs an update.

Usiku

  • Storyteller
  • Posts: 51
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #146 on: November 06, 2021, 08:42:57 AM »
Let's please not forget the purpose of this thread and let it get derailed. There are plenty of other threads/places for debate around ideas. :)

There may still be people who want to come and post their feedback, in future, as per the original questions.

Greve

  • Posts: 268
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #147 on: November 06, 2021, 09:28:38 AM »
OH! PLAYERS!:
Some of this is on us. Go find roleplaying discord servers, youtube videos, local game stores, Role Playing twitch channels, and talk about Armageddon. Your favorite story, the best parts of Arm, and push them out there. We need to juice up the playerbase and find and hold onto every newbie you see and cherish them until they are on their feet.

This is true, but there also has to be more going on in the game. Without that, new players are unlikely to stay. That onus is also on the established players, but at the end of the day, players can only work with what they're given. There needs to be more to work with, more things that foster roleplay and conflict and intrigue. Things have grown very dull in recent times, outside of the narrow confines of the annual HRPT, and there need to be more things that can engage people on an everyday level. Players are currently expected to sculpt without clay. They're actors shoved into a barren room with no script and asked to make a movie.

When you can play a soldier for a year without encountering a criminal, a merchant for a year without anyone wanting to buy anything, a gemmed for a year without your services ever being called upon... something is just wrong. The glue that bound this game together in the past has gone missing, and it's not merely a matter of player numbers. If anything, player numbers are a consequence of that. The first thing that a new player will notice is that they spend their first 72 hours of play encountering no signs whatsoever that anything actually happens. For some amount of time, their attention can be kept by the process of learning the game mechanics themselves, but that won't last. Once one figures out how navigate the code, more is needed or one will not continue logging in.

While players have some part of the responsibility in keeping the roleplaying scene active and interesting, they can only work with what they're given. If they are given nothing, they will do nothing. These are cause-and-effect issues that go deep, because while one can always say "well, why don't you start a plot?" another will then say "well, nothing has happened in the last year that facilitates it." There comes a point where players run out of imagination, because when they've had to do it all from scratch for long enough, they'll have depleted their creative juices. That's the point when the game itself and its storytellers have to provide new material to work with, and Armageddon has lacked that in recent times.

Ask yourself this question: wherever you're currently playing, what has happened in the last RL week (or month, for that matter) that a new player would 1) notice at all and 2) have a realistic chance to get involved with? For most of us, I'll bet that the answer is: nothing. There's nothing going on, nothing to work with, nothing that fosters interaction and breeds conflict. Until that changes, any prospective player will decide that this was a boring game not worth their time. Players can do a lot with a little, but they can't do much with nothing.

Night Queen

  • Posts: 55
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #148 on: November 06, 2021, 11:34:18 AM »
Ask yourself this question: wherever you're currently playing, what has happened in the last RL week (or month, for that matter) that a new player would 1) notice at all and 2) have a realistic chance to get involved with? For most of us, I'll bet that the answer is: nothing.
There's two HUGE city-wide RPTs going on right now I AM NOT EVEN EXAGGERATING :) Player Announcements

And lots of weird and crazy and violent things going on, you just need to join a clan or one that gets access to the big goings on, it's a game of secrets, loners are not going to be told about *radio static* that happened last month, and while I've seen some leaders historically hold back from their minions more than would be fun to, overall it's pretty good and makes things interesting and mysterious and fun when you find out :)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2021, 11:36:32 AM by Night Queen »

cali

  • Posts: 41
Re: Game Feedback Wanted
« Reply #149 on: November 12, 2021, 01:30:55 PM »
You ask a question and you wait a week.  You ask for clarification on the same request it takes another week, when you just want to get started doing stuff before you inevitably die.