Author Topic: Weapon attack speed  (Read 2224 times)

Dresan

  • Posts: 1619
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2021, 10:06:04 AM »
Yeah....Dresan, I disagree 100%. Also if you adjust the attack speeds you will have to adjust all the other speeds, if chosen not to, the game will be more unbalanced than it is now.

Lucky shots also happen RL.

What other speeds are you talking about? NPC that don't use weapons? This would certainly make things a bit more dangerous in the wilderness in the beginning. I am okay with that.

The way I see it using the heaviest slowest weapons is probably not a good choice for a starter weapon, going with lighter more speedy weapon is probably a better choice, despite the lower damage. The more skilled you are the more it makes sense to be able to use slower weapons. 

I would agree its not an easy thing to balance, but right now using the heaviest most damaging weapons you strength allows seems to be the best strategy. I know some of you don't agree, but I don't feel there is enough of a speed penalty for using heavier weapons.  Only giants and dwarves seem to be impacted with speed penalties due to very low agility prioritization and rolls.
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Krath

  • Posts: 2658
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2021, 01:18:12 PM »
Without going into details I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that your final paragraph is completely inaccurate.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1619
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2021, 05:30:41 PM »
Without going into details I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that your final paragraph is completely inaccurate.

No its actually completely accurate because as its my opinion based on my perception. Which as i stated, some clearly disagree with, having a difference in opinion is also fine. None of us are running coded statistics here with every possible scenerio.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 05:50:01 PM by Dresan »
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The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9465
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2021, 12:15:49 AM »
Two things. Agility should certainly give you a nice dodge bonus. I think it already does, but I'd certainly increase that.

Second, make height mean more than it currently does as far as hit locations. A dwarf shouldn't be able to hit a giant in the head. Nor should a human. An elf, on the other hand, should have a better chance getting those head shots in. Most anybody fighting a dwarf should be able to get a hit to their head easier.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 2349
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2021, 12:45:16 AM »
Two things. Agility should certainly give you a nice dodge bonus. I think it already does, but I'd certainly increase that.

Second, make height mean more than it currently does as far as hit locations. A dwarf shouldn't be able to hit a giant in the head. Nor should a human. An elf, on the other hand, should have a better chance getting those head shots in. Most anybody fighting a dwarf should be able to get a hit to their head easier.

Dwarves are thigh or hip high on a HG, at best. Minimum height HG, max height dwarf. They should have trouble even landing body blows.

Greve

  • Posts: 261
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2021, 03:29:03 AM »
You know, I take some umbrage with these comments that go along the lines of "I disagree" and "that paragraph is 100% inaccurate" without any kind of clarification. It smacks of contrarianism. For my part, I've gone into far greater detail than anyone else in this thread and noone has moderated me, so I suspect that certain posters aren't really holding back out of any obligation but rather because they have no real argument and just want to naysay. Whenever someone goes "no ur wrong" without elaborating in any way at all, that's what I tend to believe. It's not 2001, we're allowed to talk about the code to some extent.

Second, make height mean more than it currently does as far as hit locations. A dwarf shouldn't be able to hit a giant in the head. Nor should a human. An elf, on the other hand, should have a better chance getting those head shots in. Most anybody fighting a dwarf should be able to get a hit to their head easier.

This makes sense from the point of view of a realistic simulation of combat, but not at all when viewed through the lens of the way the code works. If we meet up IRL and put three people in a dojo, one 4' tall, one 6' and one... 15' or whatever half-giants are, of course their heights will affect the outcome of these fights. For one thing, the dwarf wouldn't even begin to stand the remotest of chances whereas the half-giant would be utterly unbeatable. But it's a game, and aside from the HG, all races being discussed are available to any player without restrictions, so realism can't really be made to apply. In other words, there's no way to really account for the physical reach of attacks without making half the races either incapable of combat or unbeatable.

Here's the brutal truth of it: on ArmageddonMUD, you don't really die to any hits that don't land on your head, neck or wrists, unless you've been rendered completely helpless, in which case nothing matters. For almost all cases that apply to real gameplay, you die when Amos the Asshole comes and hits you twice in the head with a goddamn maul, or an animal that serves the same role as the aforementioned Amos. Exceptions exist for things like mekillots and half-giants who fall so far outside the spectrum of normal gameplay that they aren't worth discussing in this context.

I can roll up an elven character and spar for a RL year, reaching the heights of skill that are generally considered acceptable as per Brokkr's ideal of exceptionalism, and I will not be able to kill anyone who isn't locked behind a door or paralyzed by peraine or ganged up on by six other people, because I hit for single-digit damage on the vast majority of my hits. Even when I'm lucky and I hit the head or neck, I do 15-20ish damage at the very most. The same thing goes for humans who haven't got high strength, by the way.

Or I can make a human or dwarf and prioritize strength and, assuming I don't make the character really young or old, be almost certain that I roll a high enough strength that each and every one of my blows are a huge threat to any opponent. If I'm wise enough to wield a bludgeoning weapon, hell, any blow to the head or neck is usually a FUCKING ONE-HIT AFFAIR. And if I priotizies agility second, I usually won't get so low a score that it'll meaningfully affect any proporties related to that stat; particularly if I have the patience and experience to raise my skills before we meet out there. I'm not going to be swinging slowly, is what I'm saying.

It never ceases to baffle me how this community can continue for years on end to deny that strength is hilariously overpowered. It's something that anyone with any sense whatsoever has known since they first joined the Byn on their starting goddamn character. It's an undeniable, self-evident fact. There is no world in which you can argue that strength is not vastly, dramatically superior to all other stats in combat and retain any sense of credibility, because that is a declaration of ignorance. It is a fact that everyone who truly knows this game is well aware of, and it's most (not quite all, but most) of the reason that half-giant and mul are heavily restricted races whereas elves, who reside on the opposite end of the spectrum, are not. Those who originally designed the game and its stats knew this very well.

So let's dispense with this mealy-mouthing nonsense that there's any sort of balance to ArmageddonMUD's stat system. You're ever so free to hold the view that it's okay for strength to be wildly superior to all other stats in combat, because that's most certainly an opinion that you're entitled to. You're not free to deny that this is the case, though, without being called out for bullshitting. I'm just frankly tired of the absurd gaslighting that goes on.

That said, I acknowledge that this is a thread about attack speed and not the strength stat. Nevertheless, the fact remains that these two mechanics are generally at odds, because they're generally tied to different types of characters. I don't personally think that Dresan's ideas of adjusting attack speeds for specific weapon types and wielding configurations will have any effect whatsoever as long as there's an unrelated stat that utterly trumps all other factors in combat. Strength is not merely a large aspect of combat on ArmageedonMUD, it is very often the one and only deciding factor, unless you include the peripherals of such things as paralyzing poisons or archery.

And here I hope that noone goes to such disingenuous extents as to quote the one time their 50-day desert elf beat a 3-day mul who stood there like a moron and took twenty hits for no reason, and uses it as an argument to the contrary. I remain confident that anyone who truly has a clue will see through that sort of dishonest, anecdotal drivel. The stark reality is that we play a game where unless you were put in a situation where anything at all would kill you, you do not die to anything that doesn't hit really hard, and outside of unrelated shit like backstab and fireballs, the only way to hit hard with any sort of consistency is by having a high strength score. That's simply the way this game works. You can attack as fast as you want, but if your average damage per hit is 5, the only thing you can kill are animals that don't react and characters who have been rendered incapable of reacting, and in both cases, your attack speed was irrelevant.

That's that.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 03:57:39 AM by Greve »

najdorf

  • Posts: 455
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2021, 04:44:43 AM »
As someone who tested almost all edges of the combat spectrum, I find the current state of combat close to perfect. From str vs agi, to combat speed and damage. It favors racial and stat differences just to the right threshold. More would be unrealistic, less would be eliminating importance of races/stats from a code perspective.

Inks

  • Posts: 1522
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2021, 04:48:24 AM »
All these posts are ridiculous. Every single one are about making sneakies stronker, and nerfing things that can counter sneakies. Agility has a huge impact on attack speed already. What you are saying is "Let agi affect more dps than str." And we all know there are OP knives out there on top of the ridiculous argument that a huge block of wood and stone does a lot of damage. So what? Carrying a heavy weapon is a trade off on armor, usually. Especially for humans and breeds.

The combat is great.
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  • Posts: 5889
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2021, 11:44:19 AM »
Inks.

Is str a powerful melee stat in game or RL...Um, yup. I do not see anybody arguing that it is not. But you say
Quote
strength is hilariously overpowered
No, It is not. And if you are playing that elf with high agi and at least OK str for a year and you are NOT using dual blunt then you not taking people out in 2-3 rounds is on you.

The reason I argue against there being a need for attack speed changes or that anything is "overpowered" Is because None of you that for it offer good arguments either.

Adapt your style or play a PC inside the meta you seem to think is over powered.

The reason I could Solo high strength SLOW pcs with an elf RANGER in melee was my elf was simply too fast and I knew that his str would not do much HP damage through heavy armor. But 3 rounds of head/neck, neck/waist, head/head with my two light blunt weapons to maximize agility when I know I can get 5 rounds like that before he can even swing ended MANY fights verses these so over powered strong PCs.

Hell, he did not even wear armor other then head and neck...many of my better melee PCs don't...even the very strong ones. Other then head and neck armor I tend to consider most other armor in game flavor items...Does this give my PC the look I am looking for?

You all argue nerfs to what, make a dwarf fighter more equal to an elf infiltrator? Or make it so that the dwarf has to fight with the same style as an elf, or to let your elf fight in the same style as a dwarf? What? LAO man.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 11:47:49 AM by X-D »
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1619
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2021, 12:07:06 PM »
A well written post.

Not to detrail the discussion but Greve, I tip my hat to you sir.

Regardless of whether I agree or not, I do enoy reading your thoughts and analysis more than playing the actual game sometimes.

For what its worth thanks for taking the time to post.
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triste

  • Posts: 1183
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2021, 12:10:06 PM »
and here comes two smarmy cents from a player who isn't classy like Dresan and Greve.

1. Reiteration of previous two cents: give a better defensive bonus for low strength high agi concepts like elves. I don't mind elves being weak but I mind my elven friends dying due to imbalanced code.

2. Two new cents from the recent posts. Strength often seems OP because half-giants can seem OP. Fun fact: there is/was an Armageddon spinoff where one of the only core differences was nerfing half-giants. Yet half-giants don't have to be nerfed if you do this crazy thing called roleplaying. Yeah, a half-giant will never accidentally die to a carru like an elf will. But literally all you have to do is talk a half-giant into doing something stupid, and you've got yourself one dead biggun. And if a half-giant isn't RPing properly, staff will probably notice, and you're free to report it if you think staff haven't noticed.

TLDR: shockingly, this game doesn't have to just boil down to stats, but I would like stats to be balanced to reflect that a wily elf should be able to live as long as a half-giant that is a dumb as a vegetable.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1759
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2021, 03:47:37 PM »
I don't think that strength is overpowered because of HGs. Has are ment to be deadly and so they are.

I think strength is overpowered, because it affects more things then agility in QoL and survivability.

I think strength is overpowered, because the benefits it provides are multiplied to a point of incredulity. While agility benefits while significant, are a lot more linear.

If we are talking about combat.

Take two characters with same state except one has Exceptional agility and the other Exceptional strength.  Then have them wear armor, just enough to not incur combat penalties. Then do 5 matches, each time increasing their combat related skills by an equal measure.

Is there anyone on this forum who will genuinely claim that the high agility one will keep winning once the skills get past journeyman? 


triste

  • Posts: 1183
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2021, 03:57:37 PM »
I won't claim that. When it comes to face-to-face armed combat the high strength character would win. When it comes to...

... winning a fist fight
... winning a shoot out
... backstabbing someone and getting away with it
... fleeing an ambush attack

High agility characters have a chance. Why, it's almost realistic!

But when it comes to grappling and armed combat, not so much. This isn't necessarily bad because it is again, arguably realistic. Arguably. I 100% agree high agility concepts need more of a defensive boost than they get now, the one thing I will mention in all of my posts in this thread. I am not sure they necessarily need changes to attack speed or damage. But for reasons of, well, math as you say, we really need to look at the dodge/defense modifiers for agility.
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X-D

  • Posts: 5889
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2021, 05:31:01 PM »
Dar.

Quote
Take two characters with same state except one has Exceptional agility and the other Exceptional strength.  Then have them wear armor, just enough to not incur combat penalties. Then do 5 matches, each time increasing their combat related skills by an equal measure.

That is comparing apples and wombats.

Basically another straw man.

I mean first off...Are we talking the same race and class? That matters ALOT. Secondly if the high agi is NOT playing towards that Agi then he can only expect to get womped on.

So many of you want the game to conform to you...It is actually sad.

Let us go the other way. Assuming same race and class. BUT the high agi PC works to tweek everything he can out of that AGI and the high str does the same but for str. My bet is that in the end they will be 49/51 The high AGI will win slightly more. And also this means that the high agi has no less then ave str and the same on the agi for the high str.

An E agi elf with ave str, all other things being equal will decimate a e str elf with average agi. Now...A E agi dwarf with ave str verses a E str dwarf with ave agi....likely the E str dwarf will win.

And I say, all is right with the world here, everything is working as it should.

Believe me, I am PERFECTLY willing to put my 20 day E agi elf fighter with ave str against your E str dwarf fighter with Ave agi. And if we are both allowed to work to strengths I would bet real money that I will win 90% of the time assuming ALL other skills and stats are essentually the same.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 05:34:45 PM by X-D »
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creeper386

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2021, 06:53:35 PM »
I feel like focusing on what happens at like 30-40 days played time only is also strange.

Cause I feel like until you get past journeyman in skills agility plays a HUGE role in not getting hit. I don't really know about past that thoug.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1759
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2021, 10:02:43 PM »
Obviously I am talking about identicals.

So let's stick to humans.

Two humans.

One human E Str avg agi.
Second human E ago, avg STR.

All skills the same

Each specs their gear to benefit their combat style.

You are saying E agi will win, XD?

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2947
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2021, 10:25:52 PM »
Both are pretty good for combat.

My elf with worse than poor human strength was able to hit harder than my human with poor strength and AI agility (Bonus to hit vs low defense = Big pp Damage)

My elf never had to deal with low damage, he could always hit hard because of his ridiculous offense and agility.

My human would have the occasional issue. If I ever ran into anything I couldn't stomp, I'd nick or bounce every fucking hit. So you've got this human who can fight raptor packs and the minute he fights someone with similar off/def he can't even nick him.

So strength definitely helps establish a minimum damage, but I'd say a stupid high agility is better for like...overall fighting. I'd rather have high both.
This isn't to say I really lean anywhere on the 'strength too good agility too good' argument.

triste

  • Posts: 1183
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2021, 10:32:54 PM »
> You are saying E agi will win, XD?

Are you implying that the ideal answer here is that if the "stat level" match up but are differently distributed among strength and agility that they should win equally? If we adjusted agility for that to be the case, then obviously agility would become overpowered because high agility concepts are also good at a plethora of other things such as sneaking, crafting, etc.

I will say it again. I would love for the dodge or defense capabilities of a high agility concept to be improved so that these characters are more survivable, but we shouldn't necessarily make them much more deadly in armed combat. I do not believe that if you have two human concepts, with equal quote unquote "stat points" allocated differently among strength and agility, that the high agility concept should win in equal measure. I would be fine with the high agility concept winning a quarter or a third of the time. Because, shockingly enough, this game doesn't only boil down to who you are going to kill in PvP. Maybe you're playing a character more like Legolas in Lord of the Rings or Ygritte in Game of Thrones who would rather flee unnecessary conflict and maybe pop off a few arrows to say f*** you as you flee with your life (most of the time).

And for those who don't like a fruity fantasy literature metaphor and prefer something more akin to boxing or MMA, please just think for a second about why we don't pair heavyweights against featherweights. Skulls get fractured and crap.
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najdorf

  • Posts: 455
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2021, 01:26:25 AM »
Obviously I am talking about identicals.

So let's stick to humans.

Two humans.

One human E Str avg agi.
Second human E ago, avg STR.

All skills the same

Each specs their gear to benefit their combat style.

You are saying E agi will win, XD?

Your scenario + both have deadly poison weapons. Agility will probably win.
You might say, but normally they don't have poisons. Well, in matters of life and death, they have all the reason to walk with such tools equipped.
So in means of survivability, they will and shall have poisons. For sparring / show off, they don't. Your question therefore is tied to the desired outcome here.

Agiliy and strength are very much balanced. Hoping there will be no change to the way combat and stats work.

Dar

  • Posts: 1759
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2021, 09:04:12 AM »
Yes. If you input Heramide into a purely mathematic construct then everything becomes moot. As will this conversation.

X-D

  • Posts: 5889
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2021, 02:30:07 PM »
Dar,

I will stick with the spirit of the debate.

Quote
Two humans.

One human E Str avg agi.
Second human E ago, avg STR.

All skills the same

Each specs their gear to benefit their combat style.

We are assuming same hp, end etc as well, And both fighter class...I think that you run a real good chance of them coming out equal in say 100 fights. Though the high str one will likely win in a more convincing manner for his wins.

Assuming that we are still ramping up skills to simulate time played. Early on the high str pc will win way more fights. But as the skills improve the high agi PC will be able to take better advantage of the offensive and defensive skills that rely on agi, Of which there are far more then rely on str.

In the end (assuming maxed out skills) The high agi PC will likely be winning 70% of the time. Though the high str PC wins will still be far more dramatic.

Now, changing to less capable fighting classes will start to move things towards the higher str PC as less skills are available.

Which I do not have a problem with.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 02:43:27 PM by X-D »
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Inks

  • Posts: 1522
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2021, 09:28:53 PM »
Generally a dwarf will beat an elf even if the elf hits more, unless the skills are far apart in the elf's favor. Lock thread though.Cheers.
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creeper386

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2021, 01:46:07 AM »
I guess the elves or other low strength characters I see beating people at combat must just be uber twinks then based on how poorly they are supposed to be doing according to half this thread.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 2349
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2021, 04:48:04 AM »
I guess the elves or other low strength characters I see beating people at combat must just be uber twinks then based on how poorly they are supposed to be doing according to half this thread.

It's actually the other way around, I feel. All of these people claiming strength wins out 100% of the time are known for being rather twinky. Their data is skewed by the fact their 8th dwarf in a row has gotten master bludgeoning by fighting snakes in the dark.

Dar

  • Posts: 1759
Re: Weapon attack speed
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2021, 08:42:10 AM »
I guess the elves or other low strength characters I see beating people at combat must just be uber twinks then based on how poorly they are supposed to be doing according to half this thread.

It's actually the other way around, I feel. All of these people claiming strength wins out 100% of the time are known for being rather twinky. Their data is skewed by the fact their 8th dwarf in a row has gotten master bludgeoning by fighting snakes in the dark.

I haven't played a dwarf in the last 15 years and probably 70% of all of my character are celves. And I too think that strength wins battles over agility.  Please try not to make blanket statements, or use personal accusations as a way to wage arguments.

I've also had a character few years back who could modify his stats up and down at will, so I was able to see significant differences. I add certain amount to agility and I see very mild improvements. I add the same amount to strength instead and I'm punching Dujats out unarmed.   Although that character mostly had no combat skills at all, aside offense/defence.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 08:52:51 AM by Dar »