Author Topic: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You  (Read 5157 times)

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2929
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2021, 08:18:36 PM »
I played a pretty successful, commercially and skill wise, miscreant in the past 2 IRL years so I think I'm pretty 'in the mindset' of what miscreant does/feels like? (I kicked ass)

'Switch Miscreant Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Infiltrator Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels'

On one hand, this is one of my complaints about Infiltrator when I was thinking of playing one. 'I'm supposed to infiltrate, I can't master hide/sneak like a Miscreant'. So I think Infiltrator benefits from it.

On the other hand, in my head a Miscreant is an absolute ghost in the city. Master climb, Master sneak/hide, master search. In my brain they are indoor ranger.

'Switch Miscreant Steal maximum skill level with Pilferer maximum skill level'

This is probably fine and I like it. Miscreant would still be able to steal everything fun (Give me your fucking mount tickets), but have a harder time with the 'one stone under max steal capacity swords'. It also makes pilferer's...pilfer pockets, more.

In my head I've always viewed Miscreant as less 'The pickpocket burglar combo I've always wanted' and more 'The city ranger I've always wanted', and I think if any skills should be lowered it should be the ones not related to movement. Pick, steal, etc. I'm not sure how staff feels about my take on it though.

What this helps do: It means the people who can steal everything off your body do not have master hide/sneak anymore. Pilferer doesn't have maxed out hide but would get master steal, infiltrator doesn't have steal at all but would have master hide. It helps establish that 'niche' sort of thing.

I think Miscreant/Infiltrator should both have master hide/sneak. Miscreant should lose backstab, lose a bit of their stealing ability, and Pilferer should gain the stealing part.

Unrelated to the discussion at hand but I even think Infiltrator should get master poisoning and Miscreant should only get around advanced but that's a side note.


Medivh

  • Posts: 332
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2021, 08:21:53 PM »
There is currently a proposal Staff is discussing around doing some limited tweaks to the following skill levels.  Due to the way our code works, this would impact not only future characters to be created, but existing characters.  That is not something we can get around.  This way the classes were implemented was quite formulaic, in terms of the way which classes got which starting and max skill levels was determined.  In looking at behaviors and major pain points, at some point it was obvious deviating from that formula would be necessary to address those, which is the focus here.

Proposed Changes

  • Switch Miscreant Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Infiltrator Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels
  • Switch Miscreant Steal maximum skill level with Pilferer maximum skill level
  • Switch Stalker Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Scout Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels
  • Add Scan to Soldier with same maximum skill level as Stalker/Miscreant/Laborer
  • Increase Soldier Subdue to same maximum skill level as Jihaen Templar
  • Increase starting Kick skill slightly for Fighter/Raider/Enforcer (its actually lower than the formulaic design, somehow)
  • Decrease Kick skill level required to branch Disarm for Raiders
  • Decrease Bash skill level required to branch Disarm for Enforcers

Open to looking at other things, but really focused on bigger pain points, behavior and class selection type changes, rather than quality of life changes (e.g. adding skinning to Raider or Artisan).

What major pain points and behaviors, that you guys see staffside, are these changes potentially addressing?

On my guesses, I think everyone is on board for all of the changes not with miscreants/stalkers. I'm pretty sure my last raider only had jman disarm by the time I mastered all four weapon skills. That shit took ages to branch. The soldier buffs are cool, and means that laborer doesn't just blow it the fuck out in playability terms.

Metawise, master pvp skills with master stealth is, in a way, bringing back the pvp capabilities of rangers and assassins.
I think that's more deadly then any mundane atm. I also don't think that, post stealth nerf, miscreants also need to lose master steal. It'll be risky enough.

People will enjoy playing those roles, and people currently fulfilling that in stalker/miscreant will feel sad. I also think whatever classes get max stealth will always be choice combos with magic. This won't change that.

Consider that city stealth has problems that wilderness stealth doesn't. Maybe under the wilderness tree of classes more then one class can get master stealth. I would like to see only one master city stealth class at a time.
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4245
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2021, 08:27:20 PM »
So, one question I want to ask here: what even is miscreant supposed to do after these changes?

Currently, it is a master spy(because master stealth) and a master thief(because master peek/steal). If infiltrator gets the master sneak/hide, miscreant can't do that anymore. If pilferer gets the master steal, it can't be a master thief any more.

So.. What's left? I don't know why I'd want to play a miscreant on characters other than nobles; master scan, forage, and poison wouldn't really justify playing it to me and I don't know what unique stuff remains to justify picking it over infiltrator/pilferer.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2929
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2021, 08:28:23 PM »
So, one question I want to ask here: what even is miscreant supposed to do after these changes?

Currently, it is a master spy(because master stealth) and a master thief(because master peek/steal). If infiltrator gets the master sneak/hide, miscreant can't do that anymore. If pilferer gets the master steal, it can't be a master thief any more.

So.. What's left? I don't know why I'd want to play a miscreant on characters other than nobles; master scan, forage, and poison wouldn't really justify playing it to me and I don't know what unique stuff remains to justify picking it over infiltrator/pilferer.

City ranger.

Patuk

  • Posts: 4245
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2021, 08:29:19 PM »
So, one question I want to ask here: what even is miscreant supposed to do after these changes?

Currently, it is a master spy(because master stealth) and a master thief(because master peek/steal). If infiltrator gets the master sneak/hide, miscreant can't do that anymore. If pilferer gets the master steal, it can't be a master thief any more.

So.. What's left? I don't know why I'd want to play a miscreant on characters other than nobles; master scan, forage, and poison wouldn't really justify playing it to me and I don't know what unique stuff remains to justify picking it over infiltrator/pilferer.

City ranger.

No, that's infiltrator
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Inks

  • Posts: 1516
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2021, 08:29:48 PM »
I would prob keep miscreant master steal, with the stealth nerf it is enough.
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LindseyBalboa

  • Posts: 367
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2021, 08:30:21 PM »
Let's go for it. I'm all about the changes.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1617
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2021, 08:57:21 PM »
So, one question I want to ask here: what even is miscreant supposed to do after these changes?

Currently, it is a master spy(because master stealth) and a master thief(because master peek/steal). If infiltrator gets the master sneak/hide, miscreant can't do that anymore. If pilferer gets the master steal, it can't be a master thief any more.

So.. What's left? I don't know why I'd want to play a miscreant on characters other than nobles; master scan, forage, and poison wouldn't really justify playing it to me and I don't know what unique stuff remains to justify picking it over infiltrator/pilferer.

City ranger.

No, that's infiltrator

Correction, thats elf infiltrator or scout/cutpurse (if it gets master stealth skills).

Not many people played miscreant for the stealing, they just played it for the stealth,stealing was just something fun that came along for the ride.

Moving forward, when people want to be a thief, they'll just play elf infiltrator or elf miscreant(depending on what other changes happen to peek/sleight of hand). Both will work well until staff begin counting your # of emotes per peek.

Unfortunately if there is one active thief in the city, the bars will continue to be empty and people will continue to hide in the barracks. Ultimately, these changes will probably makes elves the next pain point.

Again I like the idea of max stealth human infiltrator or scout but not sure these changes will resolve the behavior we are seeing against theft or stop people from picking a max stealth wilderness class with their mage subclasses. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 08:59:13 PM by Dresan »
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4245
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2021, 10:00:51 PM »
Dresan, please, city elves are the hardest to play race the game has and have a lifespan infinitesmally smaller than other sorts do. The idea that they'd need, warrant, or fear a nerf is laughable.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1617
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2021, 10:48:53 PM »
Dresan, please, city elves are the hardest to play race the game has and have a lifespan infinitesmally smaller than other sorts do. The idea that they'd need, warrant, or fear a nerf is laughable.

Dude, the only reason for these proposed changes to miscreants is because people in the game are too afraid to go to taverns due to the fear of losing the virtual stuff in their packs. :o

Wait until people begin complaining non-stop that elves are out of control and stealing everything not tied down, making the city unplayable.

Mind you, if the staff allowed sparring in taverns, it would be packed with happy people wearing nothing but loincloths and holding sparring weapons all day long. But instead, here we are, proposing to remove the skills that made a popular non-combat class viable. :-\   
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hyzhenhok

  • Posts: 1698
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2021, 11:24:11 PM »
Dresan, please, city elves are the hardest to play race the game has and have a lifespan infinitesmally smaller than other sorts do. The idea that they'd need, warrant, or fear a nerf is laughable.

Dude, the only reason for these proposed changes to miscreants is because people in the game are too afraid to go to taverns due to the fear of losing the virtual stuff in their packs. :o

Wait until people begin complaining non-stop that elves are out of control and stealing everything not tied down, making the city unplayable.

Mind you, if the staff allowed sparring in taverns, it would be packed with happy people wearing nothing but loincloths and holding sparring weapons all day long. But instead, here we are, proposing to remove the skills that made a popular non-combat class viable. :-\   

Genuinely baffled by what you think is going to happen compared to now. Elves can already be uncatchable uber-thiefs by playing the miscreant class. You could be one on the old Pickpocket and the Miscreant has better stealth and equivalent steal to the old Pickpocket!

If you move master steal to pilferer, the role of inventory elementalist becomes much more niche. It'll be like the pickpocket of old, only even more niche because it has even worse combat skills. There's no way pickpockets will be /more/ common after this change.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1617
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2021, 11:36:34 PM »
stuff

You have completely misunderstood what is being said. But thats okay.

Bring on the changes!  :-X
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Dar

  • Posts: 1722
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2021, 12:47:53 AM »
Personally, I wouldn't mind horribly if Miscreants were masters of sneak, hide, and steal if they also weren't so damn decent at everything else .


I think it's a good idea to have a guild that's good at theft. And the guild that's good at theft is the guild that can hide/sneak/steal well.  What that guild shouldnt be able to do though is decently fight. Or even indecently fight. They should down right suck at fighting. They might be good at picking, or selling stolen stuff off. But they should not be in any way good at fighting.


At the same time, my personal opinion is that the approach is wrong, Brokrr.  You're shuffling around who's good at sneaking and who's bad, but that's not where the problem and disbalance lies.  The problem lies in the make, or break mechanics of the skill.  Either you're detected, or you're not. Either you're immortal due to being out of sight, or you're being smeared into a bloody paste. 

I too think Miscreant is overpowered. Not due to their stealth, but to their access to everything. Be it subterfuge, as well as combat.  But what I think is the real problem is the mechanics of sneak/hide itself.

Miscreants should be able to steal and get away without being completely ruined by a simple singular failure. But perhaps their stealth should not be good enough to be able to get away without their victim entirely oblivious.

Infiltrators should be stealthy enough to be able to ... infiltrate. But they should not be immediately massacred due to finding themselves inside compounds when their imperfect stealth fails.

What I would advice putting your efforts into Brokrr isn't the shuffling of skill maxes. Though that may need some work as well. But into the mechanics of stealth skills entirely and their success=immortality/failure=death tendencies.


We should be careful lowering bonuses from agility. Because Tek knows, Celves could use every bonus they can get their grabby hands on. Reviewing bonuses to strength though, that is definitely an overdue improvement.

roughneck

  • Posts: 875
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2021, 06:57:09 AM »
Or, go to a 4 tier system instead of 5 tier.

Combine Stalker & Scout
Combine Miscreant and Infiltrator
Combine Laborer and Soldier

Go with the lesser of the two's combat ability and the greater of the two's stealth, survival and ranged/special attacks.

Krath

  • Posts: 2653
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2021, 07:50:17 AM »
Or, go to a 4 tier system instead of 5 tier.

Combine Stalker & Scout
Combine Miscreant and Infiltrator
Combine Laborer and Soldier

Go with the lesser of the two's combat ability and the greater of the two's stealth, survival and ranged/special attacks.

Not a bad idea actually.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1617
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2021, 10:59:34 AM »
I think switching miscreant and stalker stealth with infiltrator/scout makes sense. Light combat classes have been in a bad stop for a long time.

I would also agree that poison, though utility is more combat focused and should be switch between miscreant and infiltrator. It should probably be the same with the wilderness classes, but others have more experience with them so i digress.


I think removing steal from miscreant after nerfing their stealth is overkill and pretty much ruins the class completely as pick alone is not worth it .
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GetKanked

  • Posts: 41
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2021, 11:15:07 AM »
There is currently a proposal Staff is discussing around doing some limited tweaks to the following skill levels.  Due to the way our code works, this would impact not only future characters to be created, but existing characters.  That is not something we can get around.  This way the classes were implemented was quite formulaic, in terms of the way which classes got which starting and max skill levels was determined.  In looking at behaviors and major pain points, at some point it was obvious deviating from that formula would be necessary to address those, which is the focus here.

Proposed Changes

  • Switch Miscreant Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Infiltrator Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels
  • Switch Miscreant Steal maximum skill level with Pilferer maximum skill level
  • Switch Stalker Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Scout Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels
  • Add Scan to Soldier with same maximum skill level as Stalker/Miscreant/Laborer
  • Increase Soldier Subdue to same maximum skill level as Jihaen Templar
  • Increase starting Kick skill slightly for Fighter/Raider/Enforcer (its actually lower than the formulaic design, somehow)
  • Decrease Kick skill level required to branch Disarm for Raiders
  • Decrease Bash skill level required to branch Disarm for Enforcers

Open to looking at other things, but really focused on bigger pain points, behavior and class selection type changes, rather than quality of life changes (e.g. adding skinning to Raider or Artisan).

I am absolutely behind these changes - though I want to ensure that Miscreants get at least steal/peek and hide/sneak at middle-to-high advanced.  They don't need to be the absolute best at their jobs but being able to do it with a decent chance of success is important to them as a class.  They're the shifty thieves, and without that they lack a niche.

I'm all for Scout/Infil getting better stealth though, especially Infiltrator, but it feels like Miscreant is losing more than Stalker is.

Also an enormous fan of the kick/bash:disarm changes. 

I know this is off the table, but I'd also very much like to see Raider get wilderness quit and skinning (even middle jman would be fine, just enough to regularly get meat).


Also, again I realize this isn't on the table but -

Or, go to a 4 tier system instead of 5 tier.

Combine Stalker & Scout
Combine Miscreant and Infiltrator
Combine Laborer and Soldier

Go with the lesser of the two's combat ability and the greater of the two's stealth, survival and ranged/special attacks.

Is amazing.  In fact, go a step further and just make it a 3x3 -- no light mercantile, there's no need for it to exist.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 11:48:44 AM by GetKanked »

X-D

  • Posts: 5872
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2021, 12:11:44 PM »
Dresan...

Quote
Switch Miscreant Steal maximum skill level with Pilferer maximum skill level

Nobody said to remove miscreant steal. Well, nobody that matters at least.

GetKanked:

Are you joking on that last bit? I mean, I see plenty of light mercantile.

To several others:

A long time ago I played a dwarf pick pocket, AA agi. Once he maxed steal and hide....Um, He almost never failed. Although, he was caught out a few times hiding (not stealing) because at the time max ranger scan could reliably catch max PP hide.

Just saying...the metric on hide verses scan is a big issue now. I played a stalker. Human, not great stats and once my hide was max, NOBODY saw my PC. And there were still legacy rangers in game. I mean, he could do shit that, yes, it was cool, really, he should not have been able to do.

Oh, and infiltrator backstab and sap is not as powerful as legacy assassin. Them getting higher stealth simply makes them viable for that role.

I over all agree with Brokkr on his analysis...I am just not sure on the steal side of it. I tend to think that double whammy for the class...is not good. Switch the stealth...fine, but I tend to think, leave the steal and if you want to switch something with pilferer...pick something else. Lower hide should make it so that IF a PC notices shit going missing he/she has a chance to deal with it. This fact alone would likely limit the spam stealing that too many miscreants do.

See guys, It is not the theft people have an issue with, It is the spam attempts. I do not mind something getting nicked, I do mind when I get the failed attempts message 6 times, and 9 things are gone and my master scan has no chance at all of picking them up.

And that happens because the player KNOWS they are safe. But with less then master hide, you get a fail, You roll your ass out because you know there actually IS a risk.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 12:29:00 PM by X-D »
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X-D

  • Posts: 5872
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2021, 12:33:55 PM »
Oh, Brokkr.

Have you all ever considered making the guard skill apply negs to the the steal skill? I mean, I have seen way too often when a noble with two guards standing right next to them get totally pocket raped. It is kind of silly. Yes, I know this is somewhat off topic other then the balance part of discussion.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1617
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2021, 12:39:19 PM »
The proposal is that max steal is removed from miscreant and replaced with advance steal from Pilferer.

The point still remains though. It is too much of a nerf to the class since its already losing max sneak/hide and replacing it with a lower level version of it .
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 12:46:09 PM by Dresan »
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X-D

  • Posts: 5872
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2021, 12:49:11 PM »
Dresan: You did say...

Quote
I think removing steal from miscreant after nerfing their stealth is overkill and pretty much ruins the class completely as pick alone is not worth it .

Only point I was asking to clarify. Remove is not the same word as switch. Otherwise as I said in the post above, I agree that even the nerfing of that skill is IMO a bad idea.
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hyzhenhok

  • Posts: 1698
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2021, 01:14:49 PM »
Interesting that we have a mix of opinions, some saying that steal is just "icing on the cake" for most people who pick Miscreant, and others who are saying losing master steal is too significant a nerf to a core ability of the class.

I think the proposed nerf to stealth is being overstated. As has been alluded to, the impact of stat and item bonuses to stealth, plus the changes to the perception game, means that advanced stealth can reach the level of never being spotted for many characters. I think advanced steal + advanced stealth is still plenty strong especially given the inherent stat boosts Miscreant gets.

Some combat + advanced steal + advanced stealth + master perception + getting literally every other urban utility skill at master is still a great package. It's still the only criminal class with master perception skills. It's just no longer the no-brainer, catch-all rogue class; you have to make choices between what you want to be really good at if you want to play a "rogue." That's good.

I know back in the day people were always begging for pickpocket and burglar to be merged into a single class, and miscreant is essentially that class. But miscreant is actually more that that class. Miscreant is insanely good. The upgrade from pickpocket/burglar to miscreant turned out to be totally bonkers compared to anything else that happened in the class redesign. We don't need to treat it with kid gloves.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 01:16:54 PM by hyzhenhok »

Narf

  • Posts: 1079
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2021, 01:18:05 PM »
Interesting that we have a mix of opinions, some saying that steal is just "icing on the cake" for most people who pick Miscreant, and others who are saying losing master steal is too significant a nerf to a core ability of the class.


I can't speak for everyone, but I will say that when I choose Miscreant it is either with the intent to steal or the intent to sneak well depending on the character concept. Being able to do one or the other would ensure that I continue to pick the class. Having other classes that are better than Miscreants at both of these things ensures that I'll be picking one of those two other classes in all circumstances.

hyzhenhok

  • Posts: 1698
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2021, 01:25:26 PM »
Interesting that we have a mix of opinions, some saying that steal is just "icing on the cake" for most people who pick Miscreant, and others who are saying losing master steal is too significant a nerf to a core ability of the class.


I can't speak for everyone, but I will say that when I choose Miscreant it is either with the intent to steal or the intent to sneak well depending on the character concept. Being able to do one or the other would ensure that I continue to pick the class. Having other classes that are better than Miscreants at both of these things ensures that I'll be picking one of those two other classes in all circumstances.

And that's probably not a problem! Infiltrator and pilferer are seldom picked right now. So that would seem to be the point of the changes.

Whereas people who just want a general city character and prefer the stealth kit to laborer's "city" kit will still have plenty to love about miscreant that those two classes don't excel in. It uniquely has master urban navigation, master urban perception, and master poisoning, plus advanced in literally every other urban skill, plus moderate combat abilities. Still a great base to add an extended subguild or magicker subguild to. I don't think it will die.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 01:29:24 PM by hyzhenhok »

Narf

  • Posts: 1079
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2021, 01:29:51 PM »
Interesting that we have a mix of opinions, some saying that steal is just "icing on the cake" for most people who pick Miscreant, and others who are saying losing master steal is too significant a nerf to a core ability of the class.


I can't speak for everyone, but I will say that when I choose Miscreant it is either with the intent to steal or the intent to sneak well depending on the character concept. Being able to do one or the other would ensure that I continue to pick the class. Having other classes that are better than Miscreants at both of these things ensures that I'll be picking one of those two other classes in all circumstances.

And that's probably not a problem! Infiltrator and pilferer are seldom picked right now. So that would seem to be the point of the changes.

Whereas people who just want a general city character and prefer the stealth kit to laborer's "city" kit will still have plenty to love about miscreant that those two classes don't excel in.

Time will tell. I'd bet money you're wrong on that and that the use of the Miscreant class will drop below either the current pilferer or Infiltrator levels. This'll just be pushing down bubbles in the wallpaper. It doesn't really create a new problem, but it doesn't really solve the old one. You're just moving it around.