Author Topic: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?  (Read 1528 times)

Tranquil

  • Posts: 207
Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« on: July 30, 2021, 05:55:33 PM »
Hey all.

I've been pondering the -crossbow issue- for the last while I've been playing ArmageddonMUD. Generally, they are rather under-powered compared to other ranged weapons (like slings, archery, throwing), and they are probably the costliest ranged weapon still. Pardon all the twinkish language here, but I think it's the best way to convey it all since we're talking purely code. (Please note, I'm no admin and this is all based off my own observations throughout many pvp/pve scenes on my characters.)

Let's look at the alternatives to a crossbow.
Slings: Ammo is everywhere, just free to pick up. Slings themselves are dirt cheap. Damage is scaled off your strength, and is very quick with little to no delay. Pretty much no downsides, except the fact you can't poison a rock to a skull.
Archery: You can poison your arrows and fire them very very quickly, and if you're skilled enough, can do massive damage.
Throwing: Similar to slings, but it has a chance to knock down the victim, and the delay is immense in comparison.

Now.. crossbows? Crossbows do little damage and take nearly a full minute to reload a bolt. Yes, the bolts can be poisoned - but you can't type 'pull quiver' and 'shoot person east'. The shoot delay is immense, and pretty much a death sentence if used in PvP scenarios. Crossbows themselves are often heavy, and very expensive. Admittedly -- they're the coolest ranged weapon. But clearly the weakest.

Therefore, I have some simple suggestions to give crossbows some changes and reasons for use. My proposals:
1. They should have a chance to knock down the victim, just like throwing.
2. They should have an inherent ability similar to 'hack'. Wherever the bolt hits, the armor takes a hefty bit of damage.
3. There should be absolutely zero delay on shooting a crossbow. If you type 'draw crossbow' and 'shoot person e', the only delay would be you drawing the crossbow. This is balanced by the fact a crossbow would likely be 'one-shot' in PvP scenarios, as they would still take a minute or two to reload in the first place.

I believe this would impact the game more then just simply 'buff crossbows', but PvP in general. As things are often very quick and people can type 'flee' to disappear on their mount, a crossbow could potentially knock them off that mount to stop their escape, for one example among many others.

In conclusion: these are just my thoughts, and I wanted to open up a thread for not only staff to see and consider, but to hear other people's opinions on IF crossbows are weak, and if so, how to fix them?
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mansa

  • Posts: 10258
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2021, 06:08:07 PM »
I'd like to have the ability to hold a weapon and a crossbow at the same time, and to be able to shoot one.

Maybe not a full crossbow, but the smaller, hand crossbow.

Dual-wielding hand crossbows, and the game will echo, 'You can't shoot, you have something in your offhand'.
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slipshod

  • Posts: 1005
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2021, 07:18:36 PM »
I agree with most of the OP about crossbows.
I think the armor puncturing idea is a good one, and I could get behind the knocking down idea as well.  What about dismounting the target if they are riding and the crossbow is powerful enough?

On the third suggestion, I do think there ought to be a delay for aiming the crossbow.  Maybe the delay could scale with distance.  So the briefest of delays in an indoor room with the target, slightly longer in an outdoor city room, longer still in an outdoor wilderness room, near, far, etc.?  I've never fired a crossbow IRL, so I don't know if that's realistic about aiming time.


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Hauwke

  • Posts: 2335
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2021, 07:23:01 PM »
I agree with most of the OP about crossbows.
I think the armor puncturing idea is a good one, and I could get behind the knocking down idea as well.  What about dismounting the target if they are riding and the crossbow is powerful enough?

On the third suggestion, I do think there ought to be a delay for aiming the crossbow.  Maybe the delay could scale with distance.  So the briefest of delays in an indoor room with the target, slightly longer in an outdoor city room, longer still in an outdoor wilderness room, near, far, etc.?  I've never fired a crossbow IRL, so I don't know if that's realistic about aiming time.

Given the way they are used, I'd assume similar ish aim times to a rifle, so not inherently all that long.

However, I'd like the addition of a snap-shot command even, that would be super cool.

It halves the time required to shoot at a target, but gives a large accuracy penalty and only ever hits torso or limbs, no head or neck shots.

Pariah

  • Posts: 321
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2021, 08:00:34 PM »
I’ve never used one because it’s always been an archery > crossbow type branch and if I’m already a master (or advanced) at archery why mess with learning something new?

I always assumed they did more damage but couldn’t tell you codedly if they do or not.

Now I want to go buy a crossbow and play with it in game.

mansa

  • Posts: 10258
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2021, 08:02:39 PM »
I’ve never used one because it’s always been an archery > crossbow type branch and if I’m already a master (or advanced) at archery why mess with learning something new?

I always assumed they did more damage but couldn’t tell you codedly if they do or not.

Now I want to go buy a crossbow and play with it in game.

Did you know... ?
Every class gets or branches the crossbow skill.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1722
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2021, 08:04:18 PM »
Is crossbow damage worse then an Arrow one? I always assumed crossbows had more punch, but were longer to reload.  I cant say I used crossbows a lot for PvP. But I did have an occasion when the crossbow put a person to near death in a single shot. A neck Crit obviously.

slipshod

  • Posts: 1005
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2021, 08:28:23 PM »
I think the damage varies with the strength required to reload the weapon.  Tiny wrist-worn crossbows can be reloaded by weaklings, but others require great strength and those are the ones I can imagine knocking someone out of a saddle when their payload is delivered.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1722
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2021, 08:41:51 PM »
Then if a giant dwarf loads up a scary ass high strength crossbow and gives it to a weakling Dune Trader. They can mess someone up with their adv. crossbow?

Narf

  • Posts: 1079
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2021, 09:15:56 PM »
Then if a giant dwarf loads up a scary ass high strength crossbow and gives it to a weakling Dune Trader. They can mess someone up with their adv. crossbow?

That'd be a fun profession. Set up a little stand on the way out of the gates "Crossbows loaded here, ten 'sid"

Fernandezj

  • Posts: 208
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2021, 10:04:44 PM »
I like everything here. But I think that a possible fix could involve maybe have things related to crossbows use tied to its ranged skills, if they don't already.

For example:
Damage: Scales with skill (I assume this exists already). But possibly the ability to knock someone down or damage armor is a second order effect of high damage. Or some sort of crit.
Loadtime: Decreases with skill.
Off-hand weapon: Gain the ability to one-hand + weapon at higher skill levels similarly to how the riding with weapons system works. Representing some familiarity with shooting, that you don't need both hands to steady the thing.

This might be a decent way to balance + add usefulness, but also keep it from being a great PK tool out the gate. This could similarly be applied to other ranged skills... but I won't derail.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 10:23:24 PM by Fernandezj »

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9458
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2021, 04:45:22 AM »
I wouldn't want crossbows to typically knock you down. When crossbows do knock you down, it should be based on the distance from the attacker to the victim, and, on the amount of damage vs. max HP the shot does to you.

Crossbows should be more accurate than bows, and rely more heavily on wisdom than agility to utilize that accuracy, making them often a tool for a wisdom build.

When somebody throws a blunt object at you, or uses a sling, it should do minimal HP damage and more stun damage. If it does enough stun damage to you, it should knock you down.
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Inks

  • Posts: 1516
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2021, 09:02:18 AM »
Crossbows are great. Unless you are using them for sustained fire. I like them a lot, and it makes sense more classes can use them realism wise because they were simple to learn in medieval times.

Also crossbows do already get a hit bonus to take that simplicity into account put into the game years ago.

I do think they should be given a damage buff, but I still really like them.

Also hard no to a 2 room knockdown. Think about it more carefully. That is a knockdown that will largely ignore crimflag inside a city. No no no.

A slight damage buff should definately be a thing though, so I am glad this topic was opened (but no buff for xbows less than 3 stones, e.g hand crossbows).
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 09:17:11 AM by Inks »
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2021, 01:32:15 PM »
Oh, forgot something. Crossbows should do more damage than bows by a lot. Make bows do way less damage, but that's offset by how fast they are to fire.
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Narf

  • Posts: 1079
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2021, 01:58:01 PM »
Oh, forgot something. Crossbows should do more damage than bows by a lot. Make bows do way less damage, but that's offset by how fast they are to fire.

A quick google search suggests that crossbows tend have a much higher pull than a bow (at least double) so this would make sense.

Tranquil

  • Posts: 207
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2021, 02:08:02 PM »
Whilst I do think a two-tile knockdown would be pretty OP, I do think it should still be possible with expensive, heavy war crossbows. War crossbows in history have had pull strengths of around 1250lbs~. If that hit you, no matter what armor you were wearing, it'd easily mess you up, let alone knock you down. There's a reason crossbows were banned by the Pope for a time in the medieval era. Maybe for regular crossbows, only in tile or 1 tile away knockdown would be reasonable?

Just to clarify, I don't want an -instant- knockdown, I mean a chance of one. Maybe increased with skill? *shrug
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The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9458
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2021, 02:50:13 PM »
Just to clarify, I don't want an -instant- knockdown, I mean a chance of one. Maybe increased with skill? *shrug
I'm with that, but I'd like the knockdown to happen based on how much damage is done versus your max HP, and distance. Projectiles slow over distance, so there's less chance of it hitting with the impact to knock you down. Part of getting knocked down is also in preparing for the impact.

So if they hit you in the arm from 2 rooms away, and take 25 of your 100 HP, no knockdown. If they hit you in the head while in the same room with you, and take 80 of your 100 hp, sure fire knockdown.

Also, I'd like you to be able to sit down with a crossbow and fire it, gaining an accuracy bonus. It would also make it one of those scary sorta weapons that somebody could shoot you with across the table.
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Tranquil

  • Posts: 207
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2021, 02:55:58 PM »
Quote
Also, I'd like you to be able to sit down with a crossbow and fire it, gaining an accuracy bonus. It would also make it one of those scary sorta weapons that somebody could shoot you with across the table.

This would be pretty awesome.
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2021, 03:03:06 PM »
Oh! Sorry, lots of things on my mind right now ... forgot something else.

Defense against getting shot? Go prone. Rest. Make yourself a smaller target, doubling the difficulty of hitting you. This could be dependent on size, too, making hitting a human who's prone way harder than hitting a mekillot that's prone. This also makes shooting someone with something that knocks them down only the first part of such an attack, unless you wait them out.
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Pariah

  • Posts: 321
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2021, 03:04:36 PM »
While I know it’s magnitudes more force.  I’ve been shot at 10 feet in a bullet proof vest with trauma plate and it knocked me out cold, broke three ribs and punctured a lung, almost died.

I’ve also been shot from about 100 feet into a bulletproof vest and it still knocked me onto my ass and gave me a hell of a bruise.

I don’t think the distance is going to drop off that much within 1-2 rooms.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9458
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2021, 03:50:20 PM »
While I know it’s magnitudes more force.  I’ve been shot at 10 feet in a bullet proof vest with trauma plate and it knocked me out cold, broke three ribs and punctured a lung, almost died.

I’ve also been shot from about 100 feet into a bulletproof vest and it still knocked me onto my ass and gave me a hell of a bruise.

I don’t think the distance is going to drop off that much within 1-2 rooms.
Well, but you just noted how much different the knockdown was. Because this is a game with way less detail to injury, we have to exaggerate the differences. THat's the basis of my arguments. Gamifying what would really happen.

ALso ... dude/dudette ... quite glad you're still here. Fuck.
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Pariah

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2021, 05:06:24 PM »
Military police is a hell of a job.

X-D

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2021, 06:40:16 PM »
Sorta funny thing. Bringing up the crossbows of old with 1000lbs draw....They were FAR FAR weaker then modern 150lbs crossbows. You can find hundreds of videos on youtube with people testing this. Yes, they had a massive draw weight, but a VERY short string travel... And so 1200lbs crossbow  with a 8 inch string travel has a much lower speed of projectile and so energy verses a modern crossbow with 18" of travel. Even my 150lbs crossbow is over 400fps.

The reason crossbows took over from other types of bows was MUCH less practice is needed to get halfway good.

Crossbows should not knock down. If you want to make crossbows match RL then give them what crossbows actually have. VERY high short to mid range accuracy and initial firing speed. IE, you have master crossbow skill and you are firing same room or 1 room away you have a VERY short aim delay and a MUCH higher chance to hit a crit zone.

I hunt several styles of bows. The bonus to say a longbow over crossbow is actually how quiet they are and so you can actually shoot safely from a slightly greater range without as much worry about the deer jumping from the sound before the arrow arrives. Crossbow is loud and they have to be closer. But it is easier to hit crit areas and You can fire from more positions. You cannot use a longbow prone and even seated you would not normally.
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creeper386

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2021, 07:10:06 PM »
I don't know how often I've been told flat out IC not to buy a crossbow.

I'd just like that to change.
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Delirium

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2021, 07:11:57 PM »
These are crossbows without metal. Heavy and cumbersome and slow. You're not going to get anywhere near the punching power of a bullet or javelin with these things. If you add knockdown to crossbows you'd need to add knockdown to slings and archery. Maybe add in a location-based chance to knockdown with slings, arrows, and crossbows. if you hit them in the neck, head, leg or foot, with a modifier for pain tolerance. People with certain spells active would be as immune to this effect as they are to other skills which apply a seated position. Blowdarts would obviously not apply knockdown.

There are benefits to crossbow use already... I wouldn't want to see them become the next bludgeoning weapons skill.

High crossbow skill is slow to achieve due to factors, but those same factors are why crossbows are probably better than you think.

If anything, it'd be nice to get a bolt and load a crossbow, get a dart and load a blowgun, or get a bullet and load a sling, in one line, like you can pull quiver for archery. Maybe <load blowgun strap> gets and loads the first dart in the dart-strap into the blowgun, with appropriate delay.
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Pariah

  • Posts: 321
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2021, 07:30:42 PM »
In my opinion it’s odd that throw knocks down targets if others don’t.

Pretty sure your arrow or sling is coming faster than my hand thrown knife.

Inks

  • Posts: 1516
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2021, 07:59:20 PM »
Well, a crossbow would have more punching power than a javelin just by the way it works.

I wasn't sure where you guys were going with comparing them to bullets though.


More damage works. Not sure why you guys are starting to go off on a realism tangent when a weapon made of black glass can parry a HG hammer.

Every weapon would be far more deadly if we were playing an entirely realistic game. But no, combat is fast and deadly enough. Nobody wants brain hemorraging or internal bleeding modelled in game. For obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 08:06:30 PM by Inks »
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2021, 08:02:59 PM »
Inks, this is the way shit goes. It's always gonna veer hither and thither!

Enjoy it!
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hyzhenhok

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2021, 09:52:51 PM »
The advantage of crossbows IRL is they require very little training, and also they can be quickly aimed and shot from cover with minimal exposure.

I would just buff them by removing or greatly reducing the aim/shoot lag.

To represent ease of use, you could literally make crossbow use skill up much faster than other ranged skills. I don't know the numbers but my feel is currently archery/crossbow/sling all take about an equal number of fails to master. Make crossbow use twice as easy to skill up (move branching points higher as necessary).

I would not buff their damage. X-D is 100% right about the limitations on crossbow power. But it's even worse, because IRL late medieval crossbows have the benefit of using metal limbs to pack a lot of tension in a small draw area. If you're using wood or horn or chitin, the same material that can be used for bows, you're not going to exceed the power a longbow can generate. So crossbows should not be more powerful than longbows as a rule; honestly they should not match longbows unless you have one made out of special material.

I would not give them knockdown. Throw gets knockdown because the mass of the projectile is so high, and the trade-off is range.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 787
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2021, 11:11:26 PM »
If you're using wood or horn or chitin, the same material that can be used for bows, you're not going to exceed the power a longbow can generate. So crossbows should not be more powerful than longbows as a rule;

This is true, however it is likely IRL that you can draw a crossbow with a higher draw strength than a longbow. This is because you can reload a crossbow with a belt hook or by bracing it on the ground with your feet and drawing with your leg muscles instead of your arms.

So I think the trade off should be you can use a much stronger draw strength crossbow than you can a bow. If you can draw a +2 strength bow, you should be able to draw a +4 strength crossbow. The trade-off being longer reload times and a heavier weapon.
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mansa

  • Posts: 10258
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2021, 12:02:13 AM »
Don't bows have a max range of 2 rooms, and crossbows have a max range of 1 room, similar to throw?
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Pariah

  • Posts: 321
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2021, 12:10:11 AM »
I was literally going to buy a crossbow in game just to test them.  But I can’t find one.

Are they special only clan sold weapons?

Fernandezj

  • Posts: 208
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2021, 12:22:50 AM »
They are readily available at 2 shops in Allanak, 3 in Luirs and 1 in Morins.

Inks

  • Posts: 1516
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2021, 06:59:39 AM »
Don't bows have a max range of 2 rooms, and crossbows have a max range of 1 room, similar to throw?

No. Only small crossbows are 1 room. Xbow optimum range is 1 room, and longbow optimum range is 2.
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Lotion

  • Posts: 321
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2021, 07:58:11 AM »
Maybe <load blowgun strap> gets and loads the first dart in the dart-strap into the blowgun, with appropriate delay.
The ability to specify which dart you want to use would be absolutely necessary, especially when keen.dart, baobab.dart, and agafari.dart are all different poisons.
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Delirium

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2021, 01:53:43 PM »
Maybe <load blowgun strap> gets and loads the first dart in the dart-strap into the blowgun, with appropriate delay.
The ability to specify which dart you want to use would be absolutely necessary, especially when keen.dart, baobab.dart, and agafari.dart are all different poisons.

Yep, this is already possible with the "pull" command, I see no reason why the functionality wouldn't be the same for load.
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Brokkr

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2021, 07:00:20 PM »
I'm trying to figure out what you all are talking about.

Quote
l in wallet
In a dart wallet (used) :
a sharp, well-polished baobab blowdart
a sleek, baobab blowdart
a couple of simple, sharp tipped blowdarts

early morning >
pull wallet sleek
You reach into a dart wallet and slide out a sleek, baobab blowdart.
You load a scorched, decorated mekillot bone blowgun with a sleek, baobab blowdart.

It has been that way for a decent amount of time now, like since just after archery was split into archery, crossbow use, blowgun use, etc.  The only thing I see "missing" is having sleight of hand impact how stealthy with this you are, but that may be intentional.

Delirium

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2021, 07:05:55 PM »
Well holy heck. I'm not sure why I thought that didn't work, but that's great to know.
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Lotion

  • Posts: 321
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2021, 07:24:52 PM »
that's missing from the pull helpfile
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slipshod

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2021, 10:09:21 PM »
In Tranquil's original post, I picked up on the idea that crossbows could knock people down, but I also liked the idea that bolts could have a 'puncture' ability akin to the chopping 'hack', where a piece of armor could be damaged.

While we're on the topic, it's been a while since I tried, but can bolts be 'pulled' from a quiver?  In the past I had an alias to 'get bolt quiver'.  Maybe we need (or already have) special bolt quivers introduced.
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Riev

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Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2021, 08:59:55 AM »
While we're on the topic, it's been a while since I tried, but can bolts be 'pulled' from a quiver?  In the past I had an alias to 'get bolt quiver'.  Maybe we need (or already have) special bolt quivers introduced.

Fun code hack:

pull quiver <keyword>

So if you want the bolt, pull quiver bolt
If you want the arrow, pull quiver arrow
if you want the skinning knife, pull quiver skinning
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

LindseyBalboa

  • Posts: 367
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2021, 11:59:43 AM »
Doesn't really make it easier to pull a bolt from a quiver, as the crossbow has to be in your inventory to reload.  Just "get arrow quiver" is the quickest way to reload. It's not like a dart that will be loaded into a blowgun, or an arrow into a bow.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5872
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2021, 12:10:50 PM »
Crossbows do superior damage when shot from "in the same room", or at least so the staffer that finally implemented it told me.

Unfortunately, it causes instant combat with post-shot lag, and you cannot be armed when you fire. It also does not do enough damage to do anything but instantiate combat mode, and you're at the immediate disadvantage.

Maybe if it came with <certain code attached to a new-ish spell) that makes it painful or difficult to move after being shot with a crossbow bolt? You can still get away, you aren't instant dead, but you have an inch-thick rod of wood or bone sticking out of your leg.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

betweenford

  • Posts: 162
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2021, 04:37:39 PM »
What if I could just beat someone to death with my heavy crossbow used as a shitty bludgeon.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2929
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2021, 04:44:14 PM »
It would be infinitely better, as at least you'd be 'armed' then and not get demolished. Enough time to survive and draw a weapon or get a lucky neck shot.

Narf

  • Posts: 1079
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2021, 04:50:38 PM »
If the code allows it there's nothing stopping people from CCing something like that.

Though I think the better alternative would be for staff to change it so any held item made out of certain materials (stone, bone, wood) could be used as an improvised club.

Riev

  • Posts: 5872
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2021, 04:53:36 PM »
What if I could just beat someone to death with my heavy crossbow used as a shitty bludgeon.

Make its damage roll 1d2 -1 for all I care. I just want to avoid the penalty for being "unarmed" for the first 2-3 rounds before I can draw a weapon.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Pariah

  • Posts: 321
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2021, 04:55:57 PM »
Does nosave combat stop you from getting in instant combat?

If so can do that then stow and draw a real weapon before getting beat to shit.

Or is it that the other player instantly auto attacks after getting shot?

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9458
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2021, 04:57:50 PM »
I certainly think that most stone, wood, and bone things you ep or es should at least be a improvised weapon, yeah. I think that's a fine idea.

And it's the other player that'll attack you in self defense, yes, unless they also have nosave combat on.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

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You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2929
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2021, 05:16:48 PM »
Does nosave combat stop you from getting in instant combat?

If so can do that then stow and draw a real weapon before getting beat to shit.

Or is it that the other player instantly auto attacks after getting shot?

I'm almost certain it makes the other person attack you unless they have nosave combat, and even then you have a huge ass delay so if they don't attack you you're stuck there hanging out with them.

Rashad

  • Posts: 35
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2021, 05:35:29 PM »
I'm trying to figure out what you all are talking about.

Quote
l in wallet
In a dart wallet (used) :
a sharp, well-polished baobab blowdart
a sleek, baobab blowdart
a couple of simple, sharp tipped blowdarts

early morning >
pull wallet sleek
You reach into a dart wallet and slide out a sleek, baobab blowdart.
You load a scorched, decorated mekillot bone blowgun with a sleek, baobab blowdart.

It has been that way for a decent amount of time now, like since just after archery was split into archery, crossbow use, blowgun use, etc.  The only thing I see "missing" is having sleight of hand impact how stealthy with this you are, but that may be intentional.

Doesn't work with slings.

ShaiHulud

  • Posts: 348
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2021, 08:04:42 PM »
It does work with slings. Pull quiver stone/bullet
Load sling stone/bullet
« Last Edit: August 03, 2021, 08:06:32 PM by ShaiHulud »
The problem with leadership is inevitably: Who will play God? -Muad'Dib

So let's all go focus on our own roleplay before anyone picks up a stone to throw. -Sanvean

Brytta Léofa

  • Posts: 886
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2021, 12:10:08 AM »
[deleted - wrong thread!]
<Maso> I thought you were like...a real sweet lady.

Rashad

  • Posts: 35
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2021, 04:53:24 AM »
It does work with slings. Pull quiver stone/bullet
Load sling stone/bullet

Blowguns are auto-loaded in Brokkr's snippet when you type "pull wallet sleek".
Slings are not. There is no advantage to typing "pull stone quiver; load sling stone" over "get stone quiver; load sling stone". You still need to type two commands, and you need to have nothing in your free hand.

The only time I would use that is if my inventory is full.

ShaiHulud

  • Posts: 348
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2021, 05:09:20 AM »
The process of pulling that special stone out of some sack, then fitting it inside the leather. positioning and swinging the sling and aiming it, is a huge amount of skill and time.
I don't think slings should be loaded any easier than now.
The problem with leadership is inevitably: Who will play God? -Muad'Dib

So let's all go focus on our own roleplay before anyone picks up a stone to throw. -Sanvean

Rashad

  • Posts: 35
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2021, 05:23:39 AM »
There is still a long delay to aiming after you shoot a sling.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2335
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2021, 07:01:39 AM »
I personally think delay should very heavily be affected by skill. It takes a brand new user far longer to aim a bad shot than it takes a lifelong shooter to take focus and fire.

roughneck

  • Posts: 875
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2021, 06:06:38 PM »
Sorta funny thing. Bringing up the crossbows of old with 1000lbs draw....They were FAR FAR weaker then modern 150lbs crossbows. You can find hundreds of videos on youtube with people testing this. Yes, they had a massive draw weight, but a VERY short string travel... And so 1200lbs crossbow  with a 8 inch string travel has a much lower speed of projectile and so energy verses a modern crossbow with 18" of travel. Even my 150lbs crossbow is over 400fps.

The reason crossbows took over from other types of bows was MUCH less practice is needed to get halfway good.

Crossbows should not knock down. If you want to make crossbows match RL then give them what crossbows actually have. VERY high short to mid range accuracy and initial firing speed. IE, you have master crossbow skill and you are firing same room or 1 room away you have a VERY short aim delay and a MUCH higher chance to hit a crit zone.

I hunt several styles of bows. The bonus to say a longbow over crossbow is actually how quiet they are and so you can actually shoot safely from a slightly greater range without as much worry about the deer jumping from the sound before the arrow arrives. Crossbow is loud and they have to be closer. But it is easier to hit crit areas and You can fire from more positions. You cannot use a longbow prone and even seated you would not normally.

I didn't read the whole thread, but this nails it.

Crossbows should have drawbacks vs bows, they were and are used because they are a lower skill ranged weapon.

If they have any bonus over bows in the game, it should be that the skill increases very, very easily vs the bow skill, reflecting the fact that they are much easier to use.

I hunt with a crossbow over a bow because I don't want to invest the time in practicing, and it would be unethical to hunt with a bow given my proficiency level. With a crossbow, I make sure the sight is dialed in and I know I'm good to go with much less practice/effort.

You can also shoot a crossbow from the prone position, but that isn't really relevant in Arm.

It was also noted that not every class gets crossbows. If you're playing a scout class and using a crossbow, give your head a shake and pick a bow.

Greve

  • Posts: 256
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2021, 12:03:38 AM »
In all the years I've played, I don't think I've ever seen anyone fire a crossbow. Honestly.

The reloading is obviously the main issue, and I'm not sure how much can be done about that, because it pretty much was the historical drawback of crossbows. What was the advantage? It was way, way easier to hit your target with a crossbow. They were used specifically because it didn't take years of training to shoot properly. This does not appear to be reflected in the code.

Without getting into too many specifics, another issue is the fact that ranged damage in this game is very RNG. So is melee damage, granted, but you get to swing over and over every few seconds. With ranged skills, you have a chance to do double damage based on your skill level, and then damage is also further dependent on the location where you hit. Even a master archer won't do very much damage hitting someone in the leg on a non-crit roll. You can be a master archer and shoot someone in the neck for 90 damage, then for 11 in the leg on the next shot. This means that a ranged weapon that requires a long time to reload, and is usually only good for one shot, is just not dependable. If you're trying to use archery to kill somebody, you want to be able to get several shots off, hoping that one will roll double damage and hit the head/neck. This is how archery kills. You do not kill people with a non-crit shot to the arm. Well, unless it's with peraine.

Furthermore, crossbow bolts are bizarrely expensive. If you've run out and you really need more and you go to the bazaar to check, you'll be hard pressed to find any for less than 150 sid. If you've been around the block, you know where you can get unlimited arrows for like 15 sid each. Even if you have to deign to buy them from Salarr's in the bazaar, you can often get them for 50ish. Crossbow bolts cost so much that it's downright comical.

Now let's look at which classes might use a crossbow.

Enforcer: starts with crossbow (potential: master), has to branch master throw, doesn't get archery at all. A prime candidate, right? But this class also gets master sap/backstab. Under what possible circumstances would you prefer to shoot a crossbow? If you're only gonna get one shot, why not go all in on sap/backstab?

Raider: starts with archery (potential: master), has to branch crossbows. From archery. If you've already got high archery, why would you then switch to crossbows? By the time you branch the skills, you're already deadly with a bow, and raiders get the highest archery skill possible, so you're not branching crossbows until your archery skill says "master."

Fighter: starts with crossbows (master) and it branches into archery. Who has ever played a character that intends to use ranged combat extensively and chosen this class? Fighter is for Byn/Militia sergeants. If your ambition is to ride around the desert shooting people from a distance, you do not choose fighter. It would make no sense.

Soldier: starts with crossbows (master), it branches into archery. This is probably the class that's most likely to actually use crossbows, but have you ever seen it? Ever witnessed someone with class_soldier fire a crossbow? How do they even raise the skill? I mean, that brings us back to a discussion that should have taken place before: how do you raise crossbow in a manner that isn't nonsensical when crossbow bolts cost half the monthly wages of an AoD soldier, each? Yeah...

Scout: starts with archery (master) and it branches into crossbows. Same deal as the raider: once you've raised archery that high, there's really no reason to switch to crossbows, train the skill up from scratch, and arrive at a result that doesn't even seem as good.

Stalker: starts with archery and crossbows (advanced) which, yet again, why don't you just use a bow which can shoot much faster and does not appear to do significantly less damage? And you can ride to the [self-redacted place we all know about] to buy unlimited arrows for pocket change?

Long story short, crossbows would need to do like two or three times as much damage as archery before it was genuinely worth considering. I'll admit that I have no idea if it does, but the fact that I have legitimately never witnessed a player character use a crossbow kind of suggests to me that it doesn't do that. It simply appears to be a dead skill.

Maybe double the chance to hit with crossbows, and the chance to land a critical hit for double damage, to reflect the fact that crossbows were historically used because they required little training compared to bows. That'd be an idea. On the other hand, that would make it much harder to actually raise the skill, and as we all know, the worth of many skills is based on the difficulty of raising them due to arbitrary code quirks. A tale as old as Armageddon.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 01:15:06 AM by Greve »

mansa

  • Posts: 10258
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2021, 12:33:27 AM »
Just to clarify how the game handles crossbows:

Pro:
Crossbows are a ranged attack.
Crossbow bolts can be poisoned.
Once it fires, there is no delay.  You can immediately run away, attempt to hide, drop the crossbow, pull a weapon, etc.

Con:
You need to load the crossbow, and there's a long delay before completely loading it.
When you shoot something, there's a delay before shooting, as you 'aim'.


There has been relatively new additions to the game, where you can find crossbow bolts for ~30 coins each in both major cities.  You may need to go to a shady area of town, but it exists.

Every class can eventually get the crossbow skill.
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Greve

  • Posts: 256
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2021, 01:21:35 AM »
Once it fires, there is no delay.  You can immediately run away, attempt to hide, drop the crossbow, pull a weapon, etc.

This begs the question of why it's not the case for other ranged weapons. While I'm not an avid archer or knife-thrower IRL, it frankly seems to me that I could drop a bow as easily as I could drop a crossbow after shooting. This is not the case in-game, and yet noone really uses crossbows. Theoretically, the lack of a delay after shooting should be the main advantage of the weapon class, but it has not proven to compel people to use it. What's the reason for that?

I'd say it's probably the cost of bolts and the fact that most "archery classes" branch crossbows from archery. If these two issues were remedied, I would at least try it. We can't all waltz into the rinth and buy crooked, plastic-tipped crossbow bolts for cheap in order to train up the skill. Most characters have to make do with the local market where they cost an absolutely comical amount of money, if they're even available at all.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 01:26:42 AM by Greve »

ShaiHulud

  • Posts: 348
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2021, 02:51:58 AM »
I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from others who have actually mastered crossbow use, and seen what they can do. I suspect ;) they are equally, deadly efficient, as the others, with advantages to explore and find.
The problem with leadership is inevitably: Who will play God? -Muad'Dib

So let's all go focus on our own roleplay before anyone picks up a stone to throw. -Sanvean

hyzhenhok

  • Posts: 1698
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2021, 03:44:43 AM »
Fighter: starts with crossbows (master) and it branches into archery. Who has ever played a character that intends to use ranged combat extensively and chosen this class? Fighter is for Byn/Militia sergeants. If your ambition is to ride around the desert shooting people from a distance, you do not choose fighter. It would make no sense.

Soldier: starts with crossbows (master), it branches into archery. This is probably the class that's most likely to actually use crossbows, but have you ever seen it? Ever witnessed someone with class_soldier fire a crossbow? How do they even raise the skill? I mean, that brings us back to a discussion that should have taken place before: how do you raise crossbow in a manner that isn't nonsensical when crossbow bolts cost half the monthly wages of an AoD soldier, each? Yeah...

You don't even need this logic. Show me a PC who has branched archery on either of these classes, and I'll show you a PC that has tossed their crossbow in the trash and has switched to bows.

Anyway, there's a clear design choice that has to be made here. Some people are assuming that crossbows need to be equal to the other forms of range weapons. Others prefer realism, in which case it's clear that crossbows don't have any real advantage over bows assuming one has mastered both.

"Crossbows are an option but kinda suck" is true to the D&D source material so IMO the latter is fine.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 03:48:23 AM by hyzhenhok »

Dar

  • Posts: 1722
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2021, 04:13:44 AM »
Once it fires, there is no delayYou can immediately run away, attempt to hide, drop the crossbow, pull a weapon, etc.

That's actually pretty big. Get a trio of elves with dwarf loaded crossbows shoot in unison and insta climb up the wall/hide and we've got a trio of barely trained elves offing templars.

Narf

  • Posts: 1079
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2021, 05:08:33 AM »
Once it fires, there is no delayYou can immediately run away, attempt to hide, drop the crossbow, pull a weapon, etc.

That's actually pretty big. Get a trio of elves with dwarf loaded crossbows shoot in unison and insta climb up the wall/hide and we've got a trio of barely trained elves offing templars.

A trio of coordinated people could do enormous damage with a variety of strategies. Fortunately the logistics of cooperation in Arm seem to keep these strategies rare to nonexistent for whatever reason.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9458
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2021, 06:21:47 AM »
Remember, you can travel with a loaded crossbow, so you can draw, aim, shoot, sheath, draw melee tool, attack. The only real delay there is the aiming.

I'm pretty cool with that being the crossbow's role. Add in shooting it while sitting down, or even resting, and I'd think it's nearly perfect in utilization.

City Guards do make you unload a crossbow when you enter a city. They recognize that threat.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


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Dresan

  • Posts: 1617
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2021, 10:31:32 PM »
My understanding is that crossbows aren't that great on elves unlike with bows.

The only real value of crossbow is on criminal classes who may for some reason want to launch an attack high above, I think crossbows fire quicker then throwing.

Why you would want to do this, not sure, but with the right poison it can be viable i guess.

Less damage than bows is fine but more knockdown chance would make this a great weapon to learn for certain situations.

Also I've always felt that throw should be city use only since the spaces between wilderness room are much larger, giving both throw and crossbows more situational uses even if you have archery but I think this would annoy people so meh.
This message was brought to you by a fair weather player.

X-D

  • Posts: 5872
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2021, 11:51:05 AM »
What is it with people thinking crossbows should knock down. No...just NO.

Crossbows should be Stupidly accurate at close range. Crossbows should let you keep hide/invis during aim.

That is it. They do not have these IG, far as I know. But they should.

As to knockdown.

Look, I have a Ravin R29X, this is a silly powerful MODERN crossbow, it chronies over 430fps with a 400grain bolt. To put this in perspective, that is still half the power of a .45 ACP at 180 grain 900fps.

Almost two years ago I took a shot at a 12 point that was a bit long range, roughly 28 yards. The bow noise allowed the buck to jump just before the bolt got there so the hit was 2 inches off target hitting shoulder blade. There was a nice solid thunk noise as the deer ran off, not being moved to the side at all by impact. Took me two hours to find him and even then it took a second shot to put him down.

And some of you want a crossbow that at best is half as powerful to knock down?
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Dresan

  • Posts: 1617
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2021, 01:07:17 PM »
Stuff.

And some of you want a crossbow that at best is half as powerful to knock down?

Yes.  :)
This message was brought to you by a fair weather player.

roughneck

  • Posts: 875
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2021, 01:30:12 PM »
I have a Ravin R29X

Fancy boy, I figured you'd be an Excalibur guy.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9458
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2021, 01:39:50 PM »
I think anything that you throw that isn't a spear or a boomerang like weapon should only be city use, sure. At most it should only have one room of use in the wilds.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Discord:The7DeadlyVenomz#3870

X-D

  • Posts: 5872
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2021, 02:16:32 PM »
Roughneck:

I am, I have a sniper elite, but passed that on to the woman a few years back. And a bearx hanging on the wall.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

roughneck

  • Posts: 875
Re: Crossbows: Are they weak, and if so, how to fix them?
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2021, 12:53:01 PM »
Roughneck:

I am, I have a sniper elite, but passed that on to the woman a few years back. And a bearx hanging on the wall.

Fuckin legend.