Author Topic: For craft's sake!  (Read 1482 times)

Maso

  • Posts: 4062
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2021, 04:49:38 AM »
(which you appear to now concede).

I don't. :p
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triste

  • Posts: 1049
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2021, 04:51:02 AM »
(which you appear to now concede).

I don't. :p

You concede it's "Nice to have" but at least we agree it's completely unnecessary.
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2021, 04:53:49 AM »
Let me just reiterate for new players.

If you want to be a great merchant find and learn from a great merchant.

If you want to be a great thief find and learn from a great thief.

If you want to be a great warrior find and learn from a great warrior.

It's literally what the game is about: roleplaying.
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2021, 04:59:46 AM »
And yes this is on topic. For craft's sake don't ruin crafting roleplay!

I will post in this thread all day to fight for that.
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2021, 05:03:47 AM »
The second someone explains how a mechanism that totally bypasses interaction, trade and roleplaying helps roleplaying is the second I stop posting here but going to let this sit until someone explains how a mechanism that totally bypasses interaction, trade and roleplaying helps roleplaying.

:)
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Cordon

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2021, 05:16:21 AM »
 There has been some pretty extensive use of most types hand tools in my life, have a small collection of 'old' tools as well. Willing to offer advice for RPing to any in a bind for RP material with tools they may have never seen before Arm.

 Looking to help with crafting RP, can share things that only someone that has worn out tools might know.

triste

  • Posts: 1049
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2021, 05:25:40 AM »
There has been some pretty extensive use of most types hand tools in my life, have a small collection of 'old' tools as well. Willing to offer advice for RPing to any in a bind for RP material with tools they may have never seen before Arm.

 Looking to help with crafting RP, can share things that only someone that has worn out tools might know.

See -- I love it when people share and learn from this roleplay in game.

Let my last dorky caring-too-much-about-this post be a paean to great merchants past. Who has had the privilege of roleplaying, in the last fifteen years or so, with Tasok Salarr? Merchant Ita of Salarr? Sinjinn of the Akai Sjirr. Merchant Raymond of House Salarr.

Now imagine just suddenly losing every scene where you might have interacted with characters like these and others. That is exactly what will happen if every merchant is suddenly capable of becoming a money making silo without the need to interact, learn and teach.

I want a game where you are rewarded for roleplay, and roleplay is it's own reward.
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2021, 05:56:53 AM »
When I get some sleep and finish work today, I'll look for a log of when my character randomly learned how to craft "Grebber's Delight" from a random hunter two IRL years ago. It was actually one of the scenes that got me back into Armageddon two years ago. I would hate for scenes like that to be replaced with "ooc Ya i already knew that it pops up when you type `craft saclike`"
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Maso

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2021, 06:11:18 AM »

Now imagine just suddenly losing every scene where you might have interacted with characters like these and others. That is exactly what will happen if every merchant is suddenly capable of becoming a money making silo without the need to interact, learn and teach.


Every merchant is already capable of becoming a money making silo without any interaction at all....it's extremely easy for those that want to do it, and it's extremely boring. That is not at all what I am looking for. None of the ideas here would contribute further to that, because it's already so easy to achieve that it cannot be made easier if power gaming and getting rich is the end game for a player.

Trying to force roleplay out of not knowing what to do with a 'slightly-different-shaped-lump-of-stone-than-the-other-one' is an awkward OOC construct that nobody wants to deal with, I can see the occasional RP opportunity, but not something that wouldn't get old fast. And none of this has anything to do with becoming a 'great merchant', which is a whole other level in itself. There is a much broader range of crafting classes now, many of which may apply to characters without any such aspirations.

When I get some sleep and finish work today, I'll look for a log of when my character randomly learned how to craft "Grebber's Delight" from a random hunter two IRL years ago. It was actually one of the scenes that got me back into Armageddon two years ago. I would hate for scenes like that to be replaced with "ooc Ya i already knew that it pops up when you type `craft saclike`"

Agreed, it would be sad to lose all opportunities for moments like that. Those interactions however, are quite rare however much they are yearned for. Giving some options for a crafting ingredient, rather than all options for a crafting ingredient would negate that possibility somewhat.
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triste

  • Posts: 1049
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2021, 06:29:01 AM »
When I get some sleep and finish work today, I'll look for a log of when my character randomly learned how to craft "Grebber's Delight" from a random hunter two IRL years ago. It was actually one of the scenes that got me back into Armageddon two years ago. I would hate for scenes like that to be replaced with "ooc Ya i already knew that it pops up when you type `craft saclike`"

Agreed, it would be sad to lose all opportunities for moments like that. Those interactions however, are quite rare however much they are yearned for. Giving some options for a crafting ingredient, rather than all options for a crafting ingredient would negate that possibility somewhat.

Alright I still can't sleep, but roleplay like this is only as rare as we make it. After learning how to make Grebber's Delight I taught maybe six other players how to make it. One of those players was a new player who kudosed me for showing him how to enjoy the game or some such.

Why talk about expensive relational database queries to pull up recipes so people can grind coin without roleplay when the much more beautiful relational phenomenon is the networked nature of learning in the system we have today.

Sorry to wax poetic while also understanding code, it is kind of why I play this game.
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Maso

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2021, 06:36:14 AM »
I don't have the time for this. 
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2021, 06:43:17 AM »
Sounds like a lack of a rebuttal.

I said I should be sleeping an hour ago so good night <3
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Maso

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2021, 06:46:39 AM »
Sounds like a lack of a rebuttal.

I mean, looking at our last few back and forths...you keep saying the same thing...and I keep saying the same thing...which you then ignore...and say the same thing. I'm not looking to get stuck in an endless loop. Especially since it's the middle of the work day and I have software to design.
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2021, 08:53:32 AM »
Well, Triste's point isn't invalid, but what happens when those great merchants, two of which I was lucky enough to play under, no longer have the knowledge to give you? When they are gone, and, because of how player-concentration ebbs and flows, there's a lull between merchants which allows recipes to get lost? Both Tasok and Ita retired while I played Agron, but Agron was an armorcrafter, and didn't have (nor care about having since he was a dwarf who only really really cared about making armor) access to knowledge about crafting weapons.

Maso's argument is that it would be nice if recipes weren't lost. Triste's argument is for mercantile RP. So ... perhaps a reconciliation would be along the lines of "great merchants" having access to all of those recipes, so that someone has the ability to learn of them. Obviously, that knowledge could be couched in books and the like, so that the foremost holders of knowledge are the blooded Merchants of the GMHs.

But Maso's point remains: we shouldn't lose access to recipes unless staff literally decides that those recipes are no longer part of the world. And that will happen, even to great merchants, without some sort of mechanism to keep it from happening.
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zealus

  • Posts: 259
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2021, 08:58:15 AM »
Gonna have to agree with 7DV above.
And also, it's nice and all if your leader PC has time for that, but in my (very fun) kuraci run, I didn't have time to learn craft recipes a lot.
Because my agent was teaching me things about the nature of merchanting, yaknow, in an RP scene.
So I'd not say that learning crafting recipes is the only singular purpose of GMH leader -> crafter interaction. In the slightest.

SpyGuy

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2021, 09:34:35 AM »
From some requests I’ve put in and things I’ve learned I suspect it’s not even easy for staff to find recipes using specific materials right now.  So not sure how feasible it would be to get some of these in game but I’m down, within limits.

Personally I like the feeling of finding new crafts in game and then sharing them with others.  It’s fun to learn a new cooking recipe and then wow another player with it.  That said, it’s also an ongoing source of frustration for people.   Yes, learning how to craft from a great crafter is the best way to do it but said crafters may not exist in game, may not like your face or may just be busy with other stuff. 

My ideal system might be something that gives you a hint if you’re one component off.  Let’s say scrab shell and chalton hide make nothing.  But add a packet of purple dye and they make a sweet breastplate.  So when you try ‘craft scrab chalton’ it returns ‘You think you could make something if you had some purple dye’.  It’d still keep some of the mystery but be much more lenient when finding recipes through experimentation.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 09:47:01 AM by SpyGuy »

triste

  • Posts: 1049
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2021, 09:40:12 AM »
From some requests I’ve put in and things I’ve learned I suspect it’s not even easy for staff to find recipes using specific materials right now.  So not sure how feasible it would be to get some of these in game but I’m down, within limits.

Personally I like the feeling of finding new crafts in game and then sharing them with others.  It’s fun to learn a new cooking recipe and then wow another player with it.  That said, it’s also an ongoing source of frustration for people.   Yes, learning how to craft from a great crafter is the best way to do it but said crafters may not exist in game, may not like your face or may just be busy with other stuff. 

My ideal system might be something that gives you a hint if you’re one component off.  Let’s say scrab shell and chalton hide make nothing.  But add a packet of purple dye and they make a sweet breastplate.  So when you try ‘craft scrab chalton’ it returns ‘You think you could make something if you had some purple dye’.  It’d still keep some of the mystery but be much more for finding recipes through experimentation.

Yes, we could arrive at a compromise like this for people who "like the feeling of finding new crafts in game and then sharing them with others" which was the point I was making which "isn't invalid" according to 7DV (you could have been grammatically nice and stated my point was "valid" rather than going for the double negative).

The proposed compromises are sadly even harder to code than the original roleplay killing "Gimme all the recipes like this is an MMORPG" solution. The only idea that continues to seem worth lifting off the ground is the simple "You might be able to craft this" echo upon view.
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lostinspace

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2021, 03:13:36 PM »
I always like the idea of having NPCs sell random craftables to merchants.

Seems like a good way for long lost recipes to be filtered back into the game in a logical way. If you want to learn new weapon recipes, watch the weapon shops and buy any that look promising to analyze.
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triste

  • Posts: 1049
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2021, 03:17:32 PM »
I always like the idea of having NPCs sell random craftables to merchants.

Seems like a good way for long lost recipes to be filtered back into the game in a logical way. If you want to learn new weapon recipes, watch the weapon shops and buy any that look promising to analyze.

This is exactly what staff / Shabago mentioned doing about a year ago (cycling these sorts of items into markets). It's a good approach, agreed. If anything automating and increasing the number of items cycled in is desirable.
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creeper386

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2021, 01:17:11 AM »
Couple points. Maybe evening PST isn't a good time to play. I personally don't think the player base is super supportive of, "Just fine a PC to learn from," but forcing PC interaction for a system that doesn't work well because of OOC constraints isn't that helpful.

Not to mention, say a new playing joins this game. I've seen lots of reviews that talk about crafting being great in Arm. They are going to try the system. Probably get no where. Find help files that are out of date and me personally would think this game is an absolute shit show if crafting was my first introduction.

Personally I think fixing analyze to work like the helpfiles say ... As well as at least having view tell you if it's craftable. Not how to craft it, but if it's something even worth buying. Because in a perfect world, everything would be craftable. Heck in a perfect system, I could make all sorts of stuff with materials that the only restriction is the OOC construct that it's not coded.

Overall though, I think adjusting some things about crafting ... Is in no way going reduce role play. If anything, the system how it is now, as a crafter if I DON'T know a good amount of recipes I have, the system leads it's way to just poking about on recipes.
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Veselka

  • Posts: 1287
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2021, 02:31:29 AM »
Crafting in ArmagedonMUD absolutely blows. I'm sorry. Played a few other RPI's that absolutely get it right, and the system here is very antiquated.

Love the game! Hate crafting.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1683
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2021, 10:49:51 AM »
Crafting in ArmagedonMUD absolutely blows. I'm sorry. Played a few other RPI's that absolutely get it right, and the system here is very antiquated.

Love the game! Hate crafting.


There are a lot of muds that have features that are very awesome and that Arm will never have. Mostly newer code bases. It is just a fact of life, Arm is a 30 year old code base. The code of the game is good enough for what it otherwise offers. And our coders do work to make it better as much as the codebase allows.

Alesan

  • Posts: 415
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2021, 12:46:16 PM »
For a game that isn't showing any signs of stopping for the forseeable future, it's a shame that it would be a massive undertaking and way too much work to move the game to a more modern codebase so things aren't as limited as they are.

triste

  • Posts: 1049
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2021, 01:08:03 PM »
For a game that isn't showing any signs of stopping for the forseeable future, it's a shame that it would be a massive undertaking and way too much work to move the game to a more modern codebase so things aren't as limited as they are.

+1, but what what would we call it, the name "Armageddon 2.0" is already taken
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Alesan

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2021, 01:14:23 PM »
For a game that isn't showing any signs of stopping for the forseeable future, it's a shame that it would be a massive undertaking and way too much work to move the game to a more modern codebase so things aren't as limited as they are.

+1, but what what would we call it, the name "Armageddon 2.0" is already taken

I don't know... Armageddon? Why does it have to be retitled? It'd be the same game on an updated codebase. Not a new, separate game.