The Allanak Problem

[HavokBlue]

I dunno what the current policy is but I thought in the past folks could role app things like AoD privates and Byn troopers. At a bare minimum, I don't think anyone would fault you for spec-apping for a role like that. Probably a lot more tame than some of the other apps that come in.

[Barsook]

I think role app/calls for more established characters would be nice.

[Patuk]

Emphasis mine:

I don't think folks are trying to be patronizing - they're working with what they've got in the thread. There have been a number of posts from folks who seem to have recurring bad outcomes from their encounters with Templars, but almost uniformly these posts omit any indication of what actions or speech their PC was engaged in prior to execution.

Does this mean there are not templars negatively impacting the game with excess PK? No, that could be true, or it could be perceived as true and have the same chilling effect as if it were on activity in the region. But I find it unlikely that templars are simply blithely murdering whoever they happen to encounter for no reason or provocation whatsoever. Again, that is not to excuse templar PCs (it's really hard to judge a PK situation in the abstract since details matter and every situation is different) but if one player is repeatedly losing PCs to templars, templars are not the only constant in this equation that might merit examination.

These aren't thing you can generally talk about, so they aren't talked about. People further upthread yet have decided templars can do no wrong in murdering others because the details aren't provided; fine. Let Allanak remain empty, if its players are intent on being by themselves. Suits me.

[Jihelu]

What Patuk said.
You can't exactly just go 'Here's the exact Templar and situation' as generally you can't really talk about those details due to IC in OOC shenanigans.

I will admit I see people...kinda acting a fool sometimes. Not sure why, cockyness?, Pride?, etc.

I've found I can, generally, get out of situations by begging and pleading.
Generally
I've had situations in game, primarily without Templars but a few with, where no matter what the fuck I did it seemed the person on the other end wanted to throw my ass into the arena or just kill me.

I've luckily managed to avoid all of these situations.
Templar situation was avoided because I'm a smart lad and made friends with powerful people.
Outdoor situations are generally avoided with the good ole 'RUN THE FUCK AWAY' method of doing things.
Even with this stated, I don't mean it to be a 'EVERYONE WHO DIES OR GETS TORTURED IS BAD AND WRONG', I actually agree with those individuals quite heavily, and my experiences aren't even 'bad' in my mind (If I had 'lost' in those situations I'd have been fine with it, if not a bit pissed in the moment but otherwise okay.)

Even if we assume that everyone who gets bullied by soldiers and Templars 'is playing the game wrong' (Which is what dismissing these claims seems to usually boil down to), I can smell a notable change in the game when Allanak has like 10 people in it and Luirs is rocking 15 because everyone knows Templar so and so will beat your ass for walking by him without bowing while walking down the busiest road in the known.

And I don't like it when the game is like this. I fucking hate Luirs. (Nothing wrong with it, I just vastly prefer a real city and not your capitalist hell in the middle of the known. Miss me with that.)

(To the Templar who over 2 years ago contacted my hidden elf for leaving the room when you walked in, I hope you uncomfortable choke on cheese for about 2 seconds before getting yourself situated and enjoying a tasty mozzarella stick. You fucker. I want you to be sweating.)

[HavokBlue]

Emphasis mine:

I don't think folks are trying to be patronizing - they're working with what they've got in the thread. There have been a number of posts from folks who seem to have recurring bad outcomes from their encounters with Templars, but almost uniformly these posts omit any indication of what actions or speech their PC was engaged in prior to execution.

Does this mean there are not templars negatively impacting the game with excess PK? No, that could be true, or it could be perceived as true and have the same chilling effect as if it were on activity in the region. But I find it unlikely that templars are simply blithely murdering whoever they happen to encounter for no reason or provocation whatsoever. Again, that is not to excuse templar PCs (it's really hard to judge a PK situation in the abstract since details matter and every situation is different) but if one player is repeatedly losing PCs to templars, templars are not the only constant in this equation that might merit examination.

These aren't thing you can generally talk about, so they aren't talked about. People further upthread yet have decided templars can do no wrong in murdering others because the details aren't provided; fine. Let Allanak remain empty, if its players are intent on being by themselves. Suits me.

If that's directed at me, I've repeatedly tried to engage on the subject in good faith and as I mentioned previously, would be interested to hear what changes or rules people upset about this issue would like to see. I am neither dismissing the possibility that this is a problem nor endorsing the idea, because I simply do not have enough actual data and anecdotes on the GDB are not typically a good way to make informed decisions about trends in the game.

If it's over a year old and you can talk about the part where a templar killed you, you can also probably talk about what you were doing. If it's something you still can't talk about even after a year, then it sounds a lot like something templars are usually justified in killing people over.

[Patuk]

If that's directed at me, I've repeatedly tried to engage on the subject in good faith and as I mentioned previously, would be interested to hear what changes or rules people upset about this issue would like to see. I am neither dismissing the possibility that this is a problem nor endorsing the idea, because I simply do not have enough actual data and anecdotes on the GDB are not typically a good way to make informed decisions about trends in the game.

Well, that's the thing. The rules aren't the issue. They are the same rules we had five, ten, twenty years ago. It is player culture, pure and simple. I remember a more engaging Allanak than the one we have, five years ago; that time is past. It may come back! As-is, the rules haven't shifted, the people in charge have.

If it's over a year old and you can talk about the part where a templar killed you, you can also probably talk about what you were doing. If it's something you still can't talk about even after a year, then it sounds a lot like something templars are usually justified in killing people over.

I came back to the game in april, after a four year or so break, which is why the difference is so stark to me. Nothing that's happened since then is anything I can talk about.

[Shabago]

Thread lock warning.

We're looking for actual, constructive feedback or things that could/should change. Not pages worth of "You're wrong, NO YOU'RE WRONG."

[Dar]

In general, needlessly murderous unfun Templars are balanced out by ... other templars.  The ones who murder without reason are soon ostracized by ... everyone. Independents keep away, criminals keep away, socially unprotected by nobility keep away. This reduces their ability and influence. Lack of ability and influence keeps nobility away as they want to bribe, flatter, and interact 'useful' templars. Soon enough we have one templar who is successful, influential, powerful, and promoted. And another templar in the background that's raging the rages.

And that's how it often is supposed to work and I think is working as intended.  Unfortunate if it pushes some players away though. But I think if we lose this, we lose a big chunk of Zalanthan theme.

[ShaLeah]

What if we made killing "power" in game easier?

What if the power were more corruptible?


How can we teach players to be more self serving and less loyal to the entities that house and feed them?

We gotta get the PLAYERS to get off on dog those things.  I really think that the players hold the key.

[Narf]

What if we made killing "power" in game easier?

Killing seems pretty easy as is. You mean getting away with killing maybe?

[Dar]

Each time I was in position to scratch off templars like gnats, I always concluded that it would damage the game more then it was worth it. A pair of miscreants (infiltrators?) if properly trained will have a good chance to off a templar.

It's just super dangerous before, during, and after the hit and not everyone want to expose themselves to such a long term blatant risk after sinking two months into training that PC.

[Inks]

I actually think tranquil's role app idea for city clans is great, such as the AoD/Legion, or pre atrium trained aides for players with a lot of experience. These could burn a spec app but come with boosted skills as if they apped into a role, more than simply selecting the skillboost option. I personally like that rise from recruit but I understand how that can be daunting for someone without a whole lot of time (regarding soldiers). With a new job sometimes taking up 6 days a week for me it is attractive, even if I do love the grind.

[ShaLeah]

What if we made killing "power" in game easier?

Killing seems pretty easy as is. You mean getting away with killing maybe?

Yes. I mean like politically especially - good riddance it was just another blue, we'll likely get another one in the morning. Maybe it was Lord Fancychalice, Oh no I heard it was the Guild.

I am completely against Southern Templars becoming temples of patience and pardon. I want the law to be corrupt and annoying and scary in 'Nak and ffs, bribe! Betray! 

[Jihelu]

I always address it like this and there's probably a better word for it but I wish we had more of the 'Romeo and Juliet' going around.

With my explanation you'll see why this is a terrible fucking phrase for it.

At the start of Romeo and Juliet, well near the start, the two noble families start fighting in the street and a few people die.
Like with swords and shit.
Eventually the prince (I think it was the prince) shows up and goes 'Ok ya'll need to fucking stop' and thats that.

No one even gets arrested.

Of course this is a play and more dramatic, and Romeo and Juliet are from noble families and what not, but I wish we had more ability to fight in the streets.

Imagine: It's close to late at night and you're walking along wall Road. The nearest soldier is three blocks the other way.
Two elves come from the shadows and threaten you at knife point.
You type n and the elf attacks you

Three half giants come running in from the north and beat the elf to death.
I fear nothing in the streets of Allanak during the day time. We have a fucking riot every IRL month or so because the commoners get Mad so and so Templar made food in the street but we can't have a smidgen of street fighting? As a treat? A little snack?

If you'd like to hear my rant and spiel about more public punishments I also have that in my pocket.

[ShaLeah]

I always address it like this and there's probably a better word for it but I wish we had more of the 'Romeo and Juliet' going around.

With my explanation you'll see why this is a terrible fucking phrase for it.

At the start of Romeo and Juliet, well near the start, the two noble families start fighting in the street and a few people die.
Like with swords and shit.
Eventually the prince (I think it was the prince) shows up and goes 'Ok ya'll need to fucking stop' and thats that.

No one even gets arrested.

Of course this is a play and more dramatic, and Romeo and Juliet are from noble families and what not, but I wish we had more ability to fight in the streets.

Imagine: It's close to late at night and you're walking along wall Road. The nearest soldier is three blocks the other way.
Two elves come from the shadows and threaten you at knife point.
You type n and the elf attacks you

Three half giants come running in from the north and beat the elf to death.
I fear nothing in the streets of Allanak during the day time. We have a fucking riot every IRL month or so because the commoners get Mad so and so Templar made food in the street but we can't have a smidgen of street fighting? As a treat? A little snack?

If you'd like to hear my rant and spiel about more public punishments I also have that in my pocket.

I dig this so much. Wish list is that there are tiers of political privilege. Once I played an aide to a Fale. He tried to plant something on her and got arrested. It was hilarious. Do you know who I am?!? They didn't. Why didn't they? We can do better. That code is way outdated. 

Put it on a scale, Templars 10 privilege, Nobles 9, AoD upper ranks 8, AoD lower ranks 7, Noble employees 6, GMH Family 5, GMH employees 4, humans 3, rinthi humans 2, lesser races 1, non citizens 0. Anything 6 and above has no arrest privilege, 4 and 5 get shorter jail time, or maybe a decent jail cell, with light... so you can SEE the roaches. 3 and below... welp.. no one told you to be born and taint His city with your peasant..ness.

You can't tell me one of the coding genuis' up there can't do THAT.

[Jihelu]

Something like that would be neat, and even the severity.

People fighting with literal sparring swords in the street? More leeway

People bare knuckle boxing? More leeway. Subduing someone knocked out would 'increase severity' though (As people would probably try to just alley kill you)

You're fighting with weapons and someone drops below -Insert number HP here-? Increase severity.

So you could have a quick street bout with someone and not even get guards running into the room, or you might fuck someone up in one hit and a soldier comes running in. You can even add half giants to the list with more severity or just random chance (Just so happens a human and half giant patrol were nearby)

Being 'low on the totem pole' could also have benefits. Who's going to care if two gutter rat rinthis are fighting in the street?
Literally why would anyone care if a templar didn't tell them to stop them? The soldiers don't get fucking paid, there's nothing to gain from stopping the fight (Looting them or asking for bribes won't work). Let them kill each other.

[Riev]

I think some more granularity in the crime code has been asked for over the years, and I happen to think it would actually increase the "brutality" people want in the city. If you look down an alley and two gutter trash are fighting over bread, why should the city's MILITARY PRESENCE give a shit and break it up/kill them?

I remember being in Tuluk, and Shalooonsh animated my PC getting basically accosted by [some elves] in broad daylight. Sword out, openly at my PCs throat. At the time I was pissed. Like... "Why is this allowed? This is a somewhat used street, and its midday!". In retrospect, it made a modicum of sense but the situation was only allowed because I let it be. There was no threaten code. There was nothing stopping me from typing 'run;w;w;w;s;s;s;' and finding an NPC guard that would codedly 'take care of them'.

We have a lot of tools to allow this kind of 'open violence' these days, but the crime code is still real binary.

[Veselka]

The Binary Criminal Code could definitely use a major look under the hood. I agree it definitely /changes/ how conflict unfolds. Crime either has to be perfect, or it doesn't happen. So people only look for 'The Best Assassin' and 'The Best Thief', not just 'an assassin' or 'a thief'. It creates an odd meta push to be the absolute best you can be before committing to PC crime -- Because those times you commit crimes against NPCs, end up in jail, and get Templar'd or Templar Chatted, are numerous.

I've played on both sides of the aisle, both criminals and AoD etc, and I can say neither side is advantaged where 'FUN' is concerned. The crime code isn't fun for those enforcing it, or those trying to evade it.

There's already code in place for 'Soldiers appearing from nowhere' when you attack or run afoul of certain soldier NPCs. I'd personally love to see half-giants pretty much gone except as a virtual 'as needed' presence. They can be summoned by Templars, or they respond to serious threats (Half Giants being wanted, Muls, Magic being used, etc). It's just a bit much to have 20 roaming around Tuluk or Allanak as a crime deterrent. Crime /should/ be happening at a much higher rate but the nature of that crime is often committed by coded masters.

As Jihelu said...I'd love for the streets to be much more dangerous at night. Whether this means less half giant presence, more varied street patrols of soldiers, the ability to bribe a soldier NPC to look the other way (walk another direction), or I dunno what, but more nuance = excellent where the crime code is concerned.

I do like the idea of introducing social strata into the crime code. I also think it's a good idea to distinguish 'unarmed vs sparring weapon vs live weapon' when applying crime code.

[ShaLeah]

Why can't the brawl code be extended to cover the entire city minus the thematically inappropriate places? Then we could beat each other's asses whenever and wherever we wanted?

[Narf]

Something like that would be neat, and even the severity.

People fighting with literal sparring swords in the street? More leeway

People bare knuckle boxing? More leeway. Subduing someone knocked out would 'increase severity' though (As people would probably try to just alley kill you)

You're fighting with weapons and someone drops below -Insert number HP here-? Increase severity.

So you could have a quick street bout with someone and not even get guards running into the room, or you might fuck someone up in one hit and a soldier comes running in. You can even add half giants to the list with more severity or just random chance (Just so happens a human and half giant patrol were nearby)

Being 'low on the totem pole' could also have benefits. Who's going to care if two gutter rat rinthis are fighting in the street?
Literally why would anyone care if a templar didn't tell them to stop them? The soldiers don't get fucking paid, there's nothing to gain from stopping the fight (Looting them or asking for bribes won't work). Let them kill each other.

If you wanted to have something almost this good, but way easier to code you could just add in a random chance that any crime doesn't get reported. Possibly with higher odds for less severe crimes (if the crime code makes that distinction).

[Jihelu]

As Jihelu said...I'd love for the streets to be much more dangerous at night. Whether this means less half giant presence, more varied street patrols of soldiers, the ability to bribe a soldier NPC to look the other way (walk another direction), or I dunno what, but more nuance = excellent where the crime code is concerned.

I was actually complaining about the streets being safe DURING THE DAY.
As an accomplished sneaky piece of shit, I know a fair amount about the functionality of the crime code in game (Not like, the literal code. Just 'If there's a question about crime code, I've probably done it'. Obviously I can't explain everything I know, and personally I don't think most of it is too 'fancy or hard to understand', but I can't just fully explain everything in my post(s).

At night, I think what we have is fairly okay. I do think soldier presence is a bit high (Insert complaints here that we use soldiers for home defense and not a guard force) but I think what we have going on at night time is pretty okay.

[Lotion]

(Insert complaints here that we use soldiers for home defense and not a guard force)

It sorta makes sense if you consider how much of a fascist shithole Allanak is.

[Riev]

Why can't the brawl code be extended to cover the entire city minus the thematically inappropriate places? Then we could beat each other's asses whenever and wherever we wanted?

I believe the game did have that, at one point. I remember having to use the old 'hit brawltest' to see if your room allowed brawling in the first place...

Maybe its a flag that a room has to have set, or a script attached to the room, so it would be time consuming to add it to 'every room someone might fight in'? Or even adding different canned emotes based on the location (because how are you going to rush someone into the table if you're in the middle of the street?)

If we did have city-wide brawling, I'd want there to be some sort of chance to get Wanted status if you beat someone to the point where the game won't LET you brawl anymore. Because at that point its been a helluva fight bordering on disruptive.

[HavokBlue]

Something like that would be neat, and even the severity.

People fighting with literal sparring swords in the street? More leeway

People bare knuckle boxing? More leeway. Subduing someone knocked out would 'increase severity' though (As people would probably try to just alley kill you)

You're fighting with weapons and someone drops below -Insert number HP here-? Increase severity.

So you could have a quick street bout with someone and not even get guards running into the room, or you might fuck someone up in one hit and a soldier comes running in. You can even add half giants to the list with more severity or just random chance (Just so happens a human and half giant patrol were nearby)

Being 'low on the totem pole' could also have benefits. Who's going to care if two gutter rat rinthis are fighting in the street?
Literally why would anyone care if a templar didn't tell them to stop them? The soldiers don't get fucking paid, there's nothing to gain from stopping the fight (Looting them or asking for bribes won't work). Let them kill each other.

I think Jihelu makes a really solid point here about the social hierarchy of Allanak. I want templars to uphold the oppressive vibe of Allanak, but I do think that part of that can be reflected by Templars not giving a shit about Joe Grebber's salt sacks getting stolen from his crumbling apartment. Oh, that knife-eared half-breed from the alleys stole your favorite shitty dagger? Really? Why is that my problem?

[Jihelu]

And of course, these things can change. Maybe the soldiers don't care about 'public safety' but the Templar in charge of them is getting complaints from nobles that their workers are getting mugged constantly...so now soldiers patrol specific roads or are more cunty for that month till the noble gets off their ass. Etc

Allanak seems to be giving way too much of a shit about public safety for no reason other than 'crime bad'