The Allanak Problem

[Riev]

Aren't indies then the least reliant on strong leadership or imm plots?

Indies are supposed to be the last-invited to big plots and whatnot, because clans have Leadership and Staff oversight. Clans and leaders should be driving the plotlines, and your "twink ranger who never talks to anyone" isn't invited because they're not clanned-up.

Indies are the least reliant, but also the least supported when it comes to plotlines.

[Fernandezj]

Well yeah, I meant out of clans. I think clans offer a benefit.

The eco system in Allanak should, to me, be something like this to have a healthy play:

Large amount of unclanned (grebbers, hunters, magickers, minor criminals, self-starters, whatever).
This is more like a global pool that other "hubs" would utilize.

Criminal clans (rinth or otherwise) - limited population to sow strife, terrorize unclanned and clan, and serve greater plot.
Houses (noble + gmh) - limited population that encourage unclanned to do things, provide targets for murder and intrigue, serve greater plots
Byn - limited population that provide services to unclanned and clanned (training, contracts, etc), serve greater plots
Arm - limited population with templars to police, cause/solve strife, serve greater plots.

Too much or too little of one directly messes up the other. If were playing off the notion that Allanak is the metropolis, it should be discouraged to have its active population less than other places. Like there shouldn't be 50 active players in Morins and 10 in Allanak.

Personally I'd like to see Allanak destressed in terms of clans and a more central place like Luirs be the hub.
Or at least time-based rotations.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Aren't indies then the least reliant on strong leadership or imm plots?

Indies are supposed to be the last-invited to big plots and whatnot, because clans have Leadership and Staff oversight. Clans and leaders should be driving the plotlines, and your "twink ranger who never talks to anyone" isn't invited because they're not clanned-up.

Indies are the least reliant, but also the least supported when it comes to plotlines.

Seems like clans immediately become useless when their leadership is offline. Imagine all the times when you've wayed one of the five guys who weren't sergeant and they said "uh... Let me ask". Also, none of the things you mentioned are necessary for hunting plots, scouting, guarding, etc.

Anecdotally, I have never once been able to get the byn to do more than one single contract, a ride along from Allanak to Luirs for the Fale aide I was playing, Suza. Aside from that one time the myriad of other times I've tried to get them to do anything they couldn't get their shit together long enough to do it. Maybe it was leadership? Maybe lack of manning? And yes, maybe in all of those cases throughout my time playing it was justified IC reasons.

I think indie groups have less restrictions and thus can be far more dynamic than any of the proper clans, which is probably why they pop up so often.

[Is Friday]

Uh. *Looks at Byn schedule of 5-10 contracts a RL week.*

[gotdamnmiracle]

Uh. *Looks at Byn schedule of 5-10 contracts a RL week.*

Maybe I'm not doing the secret handshake? That has been my experience, bud.

[Hauwke]

It can get to 5 contracts a week, sometimes its even more. But more isn't sustainable for anyone.

[Brokkr]

How much notice are you giving?

What sorts of contracts (certain kinds are discouraged)?

Clanned or established Indie?

[Is Friday]

Depending on how many troopers & runners you have (you can't do certain jobs if you only have runners, for instance) will dictate which jobs you can do. Playtimes also determine.

The few times I've played a Byn Sarge it usually amounts to 2-6 contracts a RL week depending on what's going on. Sometimes it's less, sometimes it's more. If there is more than 1 Sarge there's usually more contracts to be had. The "Mercenary" change to the clan has allowed a lot more leeway for the small fry Mercs to get their easy peasy escort duties. This allows the Sergeant to concentrate on the "big jobs".

Big jobs are usually 1-2 a week. The kind requiring the full force and a few hours.

Little jobs are, when you're the only Sarge, untenable to sustain because you can't do it all yourself. (Which is why you want Mercs who can do jobs and not die.) If I'm playing a Byn Sarge I have to prioritize the contracts coming from Templars/Nobles/GMH or what ends up happening is they get all pissy and try to kill my Sarge.

[gotdamnmiracle]

How much notice are you giving?

What sorts of contracts (certain kinds are discouraged)?

Clanned or established Indie?

Enough that they have literal IRL weeks to determine they can't do it.

Scouting locations, fighting enemy clans, bolstering hunting parties.

Clanned for all of the above, but I've also attempted similar contracts with EI.

The last few excuses were not enough manning to perform these and "We'll think about it".

[Is Friday]

I can't really imagine that scenario unless they were doing it on purpose to your PC, tbh.

[Dan]

-snip-

Elite groups should be elite because they're doing the things that most players actually want from Allanak military, such as offensive action towards Tuluk/raiders, scoutingg and securing valuable resources, organizing tribal groups to make things difficult for enemies.

This gets a +1 from me.  A lot of this stuff is also time intensive for staff to set-up and run through to completion though.

Something less intensive could be just plopping down threats that would require such units to take action. If not? Add to it over time and roll out another couple of scouts in the area. In a couple of months there is either one less problem because players dealt with it, or a small raider camp has grown and needs to be squashed through a more consolidated effort across multiple groups/clans.

An RPT grows when staff have time to invest at that point.

[SpyGuy]

-snip-

Additionally, your understanding of elite is flawed. Elite isn't the things you get, but the things you're doing. The special forces in the US military aren't considered elite because they get to shoot cool guns, but because they're sneaking behind enemy lines and setting up demolitions, killing high value targets, or working with rebel organizations to reinforce a proxy war. None of these are things you could reasonably expect private Mahanahan to do because he was never trained to do more than shoot straight, sit on watch, and march properly.

Elite: (adjective) superior in quality, rank, skill, etc. 

Maybe I wasn't clear.  My meaning was I don't see any of those groups as being elite until they can prove they can do those special forces type jobs or other impressive deeds.  That takes quality leadership in the clan and a solid backing of coded skills so you can actually do it.  Of course elite has nothing to do with what fancy weapons you have, that's why I think it's silly to call the PC unit of the Arm the 'elite soldiers' all the time (to be fair I don't see this happening).

As for the Byn, I just disagree.  Indy hunters are a completely different matter.  Anyone who knows how to play a wilderness combat PC can fulfill the basic role of a hunter.  Actual leadership and coordination for a big job is much harder and helps to have clan support.  If there are 3 active units of the Byn I assume that means there are 3 active engaging leaders in the Byn and that there are enough PCs wanting to play Bynners to fill out the ranks.  Don't worry, it probably won't be long before one or two of them die.  It's much better to have 2 or 3 units of frontline grunts so that when one dies those trying to use the Byn to push forward plots aren't stuck waiting for someone to app in a new Byn Sergeant.

[lairos]

I can't really imagine that scenario unless they were doing it on purpose to your PC, tbh.

Going to have to agree with Friday on this one. I've never had issues securing contracts from indie, aide or noble unless there was a lack of Byn at the time to even accomplish it or the Sergeant was not accepting/overcharging on purpose.

Back when I was playing a noble that started with a "J" there were -many- contracts with the Byn going on constantly. Often though the Byn is feast or famine.

[Riev]

I can't really imagine that scenario unless they were doing it on purpose to your PC, tbh.

Going to have to agree with Friday on this one. I've never had issues securing contracts from indie, aide or noble unless there was a lack of Byn at the time to even accomplish it or the Sergeant was not accepting/overcharging on purpose.

Back when I was playing a noble that started with a "J" there were -many- contracts with the Byn going on constantly. Often though the Byn is feast or famine.

That Noble is the reason my Byn unit first explored the 'new' Jakhal dens and it was quite an adventure!

On a different PC, he also hired us to kill a certain person.

I'm a long standing Byn player, most people would probably agree. I don't understand the "Byn never takes contracts" stance.

[Dar]

How much notice are you giving?

What sorts of contracts (certain kinds are discouraged)?

Clanned or established Indie?

Enough that they have literal IRL weeks to determine they can't do it.

Scouting locations, fighting enemy clans, bolstering hunting parties.

Clanned for all of the above, but I've also attempted similar contracts with EI.

The last few excuses were not enough manning to perform these and "We'll think about it".

I guess there are always upswings and lulls.

I can say that the last three of my Byn characters, we had contracts ranging from every single fucking day to two times a week. Not all of them glamorous obviously.

[Armaddict]

As an addition to 'what makes a soldier elite':

As noted, elite soldiers get to do elite-soldier things.  They are about pinpoint, precision, and efficacy...it's very hard to actually code into the game (which is why some players focus hard on how we -can- code in the eliteness without breaking things).  The point I'd add to it is that elite soldiers are usually -exposed- to different things in the game.  The Byn?  'We have a mission!  We need to do this!'.  The elite? 'We need some way to get this done.  If we can't, we have this problem.  If we do, we have this problem, but this solution.  We're in this position right now, and this force and this force mean x for us.'

During the 'bodyguard' era of the game...you were a soldier who was trusted to stand in a room with the big political players, be exposed to the progression of plots going on, and hear plans and ideas of what may happen moving forward.  In other words, you were a buff soldier in the case of someone attacking your fragile political driver (which was more common in this era), but you were also someone who was 'in the know' of the events of your clan.  You could turncoat and spread that information and really fuck up your group if you didn't truly support them.

Grunt soldiers never get exposed to this 'full view' of things when plots are substantive and based around conflict and progression.  Byn < Arm < Noble Elite Squads, by nature of the Arm being an 'official' mix of grunt soldiers.  I'm not certain where that stands today.

On role selection:
It's super important to not take role selection personally.  You apply, you give some idea of how you want to do things, and you see if it lines up with what the staffer wants.  They already have in mind -something- that improves the game or the state of the game when they open up the role call.  It's 'We need someone to fulfill this obligatory function of this clan, while also adding in this special something to the role that expands it.'  I've tried to apply for templars, nobles, special ranks, etc...the only times I'm accepted is when I have ideas or goals for the character that not only line up with the purpose of the role call, but also make the role compelling.  I've been rejected from roles just as much and probably more than I've been accepted for them...and that's not something to turn into an ego oriented thing.  Often, it has nothing to do with you as the player, it has to do with not kicking that kick in the cool-balls that some applications give...and often, someone else applying for that role is kicking that staffer in the cool-balls.  'Damn, that's gonna be really cool.'

To limit those roles in their longevity...it likely has some pros to it.  But from my vantage point in those roles, there's a -lot- of things in the game that can delay what you want to do.  I've no problem with people becoming politically power.  I've got problems when it happens without it naturally building enemies, which is largely a player perspective thing for me.  That guy should have at least a few people actively working to get him dead.  That guy should have a few more that really want to muck up their plans.  That guy should have a larger swell of people who are neutral to him but can be swayed with proposals of benefit.  That guy should have 1-3 true political allies through their dealings.  That guy should have a super loyal entourage of minions with the possibility of turncoats based on their own actions, or plots of another.

Simply put, these people are far from invulnerable, and if they're just surviving too long as a whole...ya'll gotta get cutthroat more easily.  I've said it many times before, and I'll continue to say it as long as Arm continues.  Long-lived characters, when it becomes an expectation instead of a goal, are stagnation in this game.  Even someone running a plot every 3 weeks...that's boring, unless that event comes with inherent risk of loss in failure, and inherent risk of loss for someone else in success.  Everything else just creates more things for players to ignore or feel half-hearted about.

Get mean, folks.  Not because other players deserve it, but because they should be able to handle it because it's what makes a high impact roleplaying game.

[Barsook]

I'm sure we talked about how the meta shifted to people hiding in private places but is it due to the excessive distrust? Or is that due to something else?

[Riev]

I'm sure we talked about how the meta shifted to people hiding in private places but is it due to the excessive distrust? Or is that due to something else?

I think trust is a part of it. 0-karma dwarves aren't really a thing, of late, but people would prefer to idle behind a safe wall than at a bar. The Gaj is almost always dead, and other taverns seem to have "semi-AFK" people that aren't there to talk to YOU.

I try not to "hide" in private places, but the players in my time-zone and sphere seem to not engage in public scenes nearly as often. Mostly nods, grunts, "buy you a drink?" and AFK until the sun comes up again.

But I think its more about people wanting to remove risks of loss or death to THEIR characters, while espousing how much the game needs more loss and death. Everyone wants raiders, but they don't want to deal with the ramifications of being raided. They want Templars who are corrupt assholes, but they want to be the ones corrupting them, and not the targets.

[Barsook]

Make sense.

When did this meta shift happen? After the closure of Tuluk?

[Riev]

Make sense.

When did this meta shift happen? After the closure of Tuluk?

I think its been slow rolling. Closure of Tuluk, advent of different Karma rules, different karma options, extended subguilds. All the stuff that makes the game easier to get into and play, also kind of reinforced the idea that you need to 'stay alive longer' in order to achieve your goals.

Up to, and including, staff looking for sponsored roles to stay alive 3-4 MONTHS before some plots and other events start getting rolling.

[Dar]

Those things were a factor easily 10-15 years ago. Ages before Tuluk closure. I don't really think any of this caused this as much as a simple fact of aged playerbase. 

Those people who are at the bar in the semi afk state constantly. Those are the people who are playing at work and are simply gettin a small piece of arm while otherwise irl too busy to play.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That's true, actually. We squeeze in some Arm when we can get it.

[Maso]

Those people who are at the bar in the semi afk state constantly. Those are the people who are playing at work and are simply gettin a small piece of arm while otherwise irl too busy to play.

Squeezing in some work...giving the kids attention...washing the dishes...bringing the laundry in...feeding the cat...etc etc. 

Just a bunch of old bastards now. 

[Barsook]

Up to, and including, staff looking for sponsored roles to stay alive 3-4 MONTHS before some plots and other events start getting rolling.

Where did you hear that?!

ETA: It does makes sense, as plots do take time to happen (something that really isn't seen in fiction, as in you see the end), but this requirement is somewhat harsh. Unless the staff allows those roles to collect resources during that time. Also, is that IRL time?

[Riev]

Up to, and including, staff looking for sponsored roles to stay alive 3-4 MONTHS before some plots and other events start getting rolling.

Where did you hear that?!

ETA: It does makes sense, as plots do take time to happen (something that really isn't seen in fiction, as in you see the end), but this requirement is somewhat harsh. Unless the staff allows those roles to collect resources during that time. Also, is that IRL time?

It gets mentioned every once in a while, typically by Brokkr. Its not a hard-line "No plots till you're 90d old" or something. Its the general idea that between finding aides and allies, cooking up plots, involving staff, and getting the OKAY from Producers, it tends to take MONTHS for stuff to get off the ground.

Which is PERSONALLY irritating because a PC's world changes in minutes. Even seconds. But a Leadership PC has to wait months.

It is my belief that it lends itself to the idea that you "have to stay alive" in order to get things done. WILL staff support you on a week old character? Maybe. If they like you, have time to do something, your plot doesn't change the world at all, and the local admin says its okay.