Author Topic: Removing Content From the Game  (Read 4580 times)

Riev

  • Posts: 5872
Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2020, 03:35:58 PM »
From what I remember of their excuses/reasons why, advanced weapons were removed because not a lot of people got to that level in the first place, they were clunky and had attributes that didn't fit with the vision of current leadership, and (speculation) encouraged twinky behavior because "I really want an advanced weapon".

Frankly, as someone who had advanced weapons numerous times, each time the big struggle was more FINDING a weapon. I had to special order knives from Salarr once, but then someone checked into why I even had knife weapons and they didn't like my twinky behavior. That character never once killed anyone, or as aggressive in any way.
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triste

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2020, 04:02:44 PM »
Huge disclaimer on this as I haven't seen the code for it and have been discouraged from looking, but I heard advanced weapons were removed because your defense against weapons is in part based on your skill with that weapon. Therefore, being in a position of defending against someone with high razor weapon skill was often fatal because lacking the skill you'd have a hard time defending. This lead to upsetting PvP outcomes. This is also why some players are wary of guilds like Stalker that lack slashing and chopping. Again, big disclaimer with this.
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Riev

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2020, 04:10:05 PM »
Huge disclaimer on this as I haven't seen the code for it and have been discouraged from looking, but I heard advanced weapons were removed because your defense against weapons is in part based on your skill with that weapon. Therefore, being in a position of defending against someone with high razor weapon skill was often fatal because lacking the skill you'd have a hard time defending. This lead to upsetting PvP outcomes. This is also why some players are wary of guilds like Stalker that lack slashing and chopping. Again, big disclaimer with this.

While what you say has truth, the actual stated reasons did not include that factor. I remember very distinctly some words about not many in-game items that support the skills, old code like razors that didn't fit the concept, and it set up goalposts for people that were actually rarely seen.
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triste

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2020, 04:17:58 PM »
Huge disclaimer on this as I haven't seen the code for it and have been discouraged from looking, but I heard advanced weapons were removed because your defense against weapons is in part based on your skill with that weapon. Therefore, being in a position of defending against someone with high razor weapon skill was often fatal because lacking the skill you'd have a hard time defending. This lead to upsetting PvP outcomes. This is also why some players are wary of guilds like Stalker that lack slashing and chopping. Again, big disclaimer with this.

While what you say has truth, the actual stated reasons did not include that factor. I remember very distinctly some words about not many in-game items that support the skills, old code like razors that didn't fit the concept, and it set up goalposts for people that were actually rarely seen.

All valid reasons. And yes, branching any skill from a weapon skill is a pain, I don't think I have ever branched sap from bludgeoning on an enforcer either. If that was considered an issue then, well, it is still an issue at large elsewhere [which I wouldn't mind seeing tweaked].
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Pew Pew

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2020, 04:20:57 PM »
I also feel like Fighters should have the advanced weapon skills, and the other heavies have one or two.

Dresan

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2020, 04:23:04 PM »
In terms of defense, axes and swords have similar results against classes that don't know them like miscreants and stalkers so it can't be a reason why advanced weapons were removed.

Having played a twinky warrior in my time, advanced weapons weren't too big of a loss, at least it isn't in today's meta.
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triste

  • Posts: 1107
Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2020, 04:27:01 PM »
Not opposed to seeing it back if it makes the late game spicier for people who have enough time to pour on a character like that. And agreed I don't think it would be a huge game changer given "today's meta" as you say, the mundane warrior needs any advantage they can get right now.
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Dresan

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2020, 04:33:15 PM »
Fighters wielding swords or axes are still pretty savage against anything but magickers or karma races.

You already experienced that enforcers pretty much already fit into that late game class for the person who has time.
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Lizzie

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2020, 07:47:06 PM »
I also feel like Fighters should have the advanced weapon skills, and the other heavies have one or two.

That would mean the only way fighters would be able to actually progress beyond a moderate skill level in their advanced weapon skills, would be to spar against other fighters.
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Riev

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2020, 09:04:10 AM »
I also feel like Fighters should have the advanced weapon skills, and the other heavies have one or two.

That would mean the only way fighters would be able to actually progress beyond a moderate skill level in their advanced weapon skills, would be to spar against other fighters.

Or since there have been code updates not requiring MASTERY in a skill before it branches, fighters could get the advanced weapon skills earlier than others. Perhaps at a level just past the plateau of normal weapon skills, but not something so monumentally difficult as 70 skill.

Removing the branched weapon skills really removed goal posts altogether, and they were replaced with Riposte and Hack. Hack being good for dwarves and half-giants (or other low-agility characters) as it gives you another auto attack. Riposte being trash because its only effective against one opponent, and typically fighters are 'tanks' and have defenses to fight 2+ opponents.

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Lizzie

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2020, 01:06:27 PM »
I also feel like Fighters should have the advanced weapon skills, and the other heavies have one or two.

That would mean the only way fighters would be able to actually progress beyond a moderate skill level in their advanced weapon skills, would be to spar against other fighters.

Or since there have been code updates not requiring MASTERY in a skill before it branches, fighters could get the advanced weapon skills earlier than others. Perhaps at a level just past the plateau of normal weapon skills, but not something so monumentally difficult as 70 skill.

Removing the branched weapon skills really removed goal posts altogether, and they were replaced with Riposte and Hack. Hack being good for dwarves and half-giants (or other low-agility characters) as it gives you another auto attack. Riposte being trash because its only effective against one opponent, and typically fighters are 'tanks' and have defenses to fight 2+ opponents.

If you only have one opponent, riposte is BRUTAL.
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Hauwke

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2020, 05:19:21 PM »
Riposte is crazy good if you have a PC with low agility, dwarf or HG for instance.

Doublepalli

  • Posts: 352
Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2020, 07:39:33 PM »
Everyone forgets about the dual-wielding axe dwarf that hacks for 4 attacks in a single round...

Gaare

  • Posts: 979
Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2020, 04:50:05 AM »
the game didn't lose me due to any of that stuff.

The game lost me because
1) toxic players are permitted to remain vocal parts of the community and to play characters in positions of power
2) the time sink is difficult to balance with a healthy rl and against adult obligations
3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering
6) general negativity and people not "keeping it IG", see also #1, toxic players.

I come and go.. This is a great game after all. Even I got simply bored after playing for years, I still play maybe 200 hours per year with having great time. But with communication getting easier, social media, raise of class injustice... blah blah.. people are more tend to become attention-seekers. Especially in a game like ARM; some players are dying for a bit of staff attention. When staff gives some attention, lot screams of favoritism while hiding behind free speech rights and authoritarianism as if this game community is goverment or some life depending organization.

A bar with a desert view is probably enough for a bunch of players to have fun if they want to.

This is still a good community suffering same problems with almost all old online communities. I believe game can't be more fun with old players sitting and speak same things(as far as I know we speak similiar topics for 20 years) endlessly. I hope to see more ads, or campaigns for new players. Energy drives communities. If staff wishes to arrange some campaign for ads, I am sure we can collect some sids.

But in short, this is still a great game. There is no other game in my life I spent so much time and had fun. You rock. :)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 04:51:44 AM by Gaare »
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Harmless

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2020, 04:45:09 AM »
I really respect the rare posts of longtime players like Gaare above who thankfully come back to us. That, is the kind of attitude I wish we all could have. Chill and just enjoy the good aspects of this game and try not to turn everything into a huge negative debate. +1 to you friend.
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2020, 12:11:46 PM »
I really respect the rare posts of longtime players like Gaare above who thankfully come back to us. That, is the kind of attitude I wish we all could have. Chill and just enjoy the good aspects of this game and try not to turn everything into a huge negative debate. +1 to you friend.

I mean, sure. But I think contained in some of these stupid threads are actually cogent and fair arguments that staff can't seem to find an acceptable answer to. Is dealing with these glut of wild-ass threads more or less of a hassle than figuring out some plan of action for places like tuluk and the magickal Elements in game? I guess reading a manifesto about #noconsent (lol) is the path of least resistance. It's a shame fair concerns and criticisms get perverted by truly dumb ideas.

I certainly agree, however, that all these problems would immediately disappear if we had like 20 more players on average in the game. I like the ad idea. I came here from an ad on the Spoonyexperiment website eight or so years ago, so I know they work.

I wonder if the insane shit recently on the gdb is more a result of the age of your average Arm player. Dementia is a real concern, especially for those who already feel isolated or alienated from the world in which they live.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 12:26:24 PM by gotdamnmiracle »
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Brokkr

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2020, 12:33:11 PM »
But I think contained in some of these stupid threads are actually cogent and fair arguments that staff can't seem to find an acceptable answer to. Is dealing with these glut of wild-ass threads more or less of a hassle than figuring out some plan of action for places like tuluk and the magickal Elements in game?

Tuluk is closed for now and main guild sorcerers and elementalists are not returning.  Those may not be the outcomes that some players want, but those are acceptable answers.

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 1057
Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2020, 12:59:56 PM »
Ah. I was unclear. I meant a plan of action to justify these changes and make them still make sense in the world at large. Brokkr, I think more glaring would be the history page being devoid of anything recent.

When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players. None of the things you mention were/are effectively justified in the world. "Because I say so" is an unacceptable answer to many people despite your relationship to the direction of the game. Unless you want to be arguing with folks on threads like this, I guess.

We have found that the retcon method is a failure. You don't see any threads bemoaning the way dragon thralls were handled because I assume they made sense in game and had a story surrounding them when they disappeared, yet tuluk still exists with a poor method of closing and next to no presence in the game world. Not effectively representing this content in the gameworld has also been a contributing factor to the criticisms here. If I were a new player I doubt I'd know they existed in much the same way I didn't care to learn all the noble houses that are poorly represented.

The unacceptable answer isn't "it's not coming back", but it's "it exists but we have no plans to do anything with it at this time". Or better yet "Just ignore the city state to the North, please", which is how it feels. And Tuluk is only the biggest example of this. The desert elf tribes and nonplayable races (save for gith maybe) appear to be mostly forgotten.
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triste

  • Posts: 1107
Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2020, 01:06:23 PM »
When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

How does one figure out what the majority of players want? 🤔

I would say the way to get what you want here is voting, but [excepting people with reason] I have been told here "voting is stupid."
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2020, 01:17:25 PM »
When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

How does one figure out what the majority of players want? 🤔

I would say the way to get what you want here is voting, but [excepting people with reason] I have been told here "voting is stupid."

I'm not interested in trying to figure that out at this point, Triste. How many threads have we had complaining about these exact same things since they were removed. If you want to go back and tally people's opinions from years ago then please do so. Also , I agree that staff can do as they want. Normally it's not an issue. Only in these cases is it an issue because they aren't pivoting to a dynamic representation of any of these elements. They could simply remove them entirely and that'd probably do more to fix it than trying to argue on these threads. Less to manage too. Make it all go the way of the halfling.
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triste

  • Posts: 1107
Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2020, 01:20:28 PM »
When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

How does one figure out what the majority of players want? 🤔

I would say the way to get what you want here is voting, but [excepting people with reason] I have been told here "voting is stupid."

I'm not interested in trying to figure that out at this point, Triste. How many threads have we had complaining about these exact same things since they were removed. If you want to go back and tally people's opinions from years ago then please do so. Also , I agree that staff can do as they want. Normally it's not an issue. Only in these cases is it an issue because they aren't pivoting to a dynamic representation of any of these elements. They could simply remove them entirely and that'd probably do more to fix it than trying to argue on these threads. Less to manage too. Make it all go the way of the halfling.

The point is simple. You want staff to honor what the majority of players want. For more than 2000 years humans have done it with voting. Voting also doesn't have to relate directly to action and can merely serve as a survey to inform staff and their decision making.

So, TLDR: Voting was invented millennia ago to get what you want, no need to reinvent the wheel.

I doubt anyone here can invent a better mechanism.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 01:25:50 PM by triste »
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2020, 01:31:34 PM »
No. Staff have already stated this isn't a democracy. That's their choice.

Let's also have a vote regarding those businesses who won't bake cakes for LGBTQ people to see if the majority of people would like them to bake cakes for everyone or not. When they realize that more people want them too they'll certainly do it, right?

That simply isn't a requirement for any group other than those advertising themselves as a democracy. In America private businesses are generally not democratic. The workers DO NOT own the factories here.

That being said, staff should comply unless they want to keep dealing with threads like this that continue to get more desperate and bizarre, ala #noconcent. Or take a hardline stance and fully remove these elements from the game completely with a fireball or comet or something.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 01:35:23 PM by gotdamnmiracle »
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triste

  • Posts: 1107
Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2020, 01:34:25 PM »
When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

This is what you stated you wanted and I told you how to get it. Now you espouse new beliefs that it is acceptable to have content removed even if the majority of players do not want that. It is fine for you to espouse contradictory beliefs.
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2020, 01:40:30 PM »
When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

This is what you stated you wanted and I told you how to get it. Now you espouse new beliefs that it is acceptable to have content removed even if the majority of players do not want that. It is fine for you to espouse contradictory beliefs.

 Sounds like if I were to cast my vote it wouldn't be representative of how I feel after I've thought about it a bit more. Or maybe that my point is more nuanced than a checkbox with three options.

Reread my post. I think you're missing something. If you're really interested PM me. This shit's gumming up the discussion.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 01:42:38 PM by gotdamnmiracle »
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triste

  • Posts: 1107
Re: Removing Content From the Game
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2020, 01:46:16 PM »
Not on the previous topic, but I am a solution oriented person. This post will not contain that scary vote word.

Mechanism: Before staff enforce a change, they open a thread proposing the change and get feedback before acting on it.

Bring solutions as much as you like to bring problems.
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