Author Topic: Content and creation  (Read 24913 times)

Dresan

  • Posts: 1671
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #250 on: July 01, 2020, 09:58:07 AM »
I think one additional thing that also needs to be taken into account when looking into PC clans is that most of the challenges to overcome are not really all IC rather OOC frustrations.

A world where jobs are supposed to be scarce and people are desperate for food/water is not really reflected that well in our game with a small population where every group wants to attract players. Currently if someone wants to attempt this, they need to have massive hours to invest in the game, because they'll need to craft, hunt and generate coins as well as RP and recruit, along with making joining them fun for others. Even if you gather people 3-5 people to work with you, the same frustrations staff faces when dealing with burn out is the same one players face when dealing with people disappearing or storing.

It is a huge OOC effort before even looking at the IC challenges, thus I believe offering non-custom basics functions to players attempting this might encourage players to try a bit more.

That said considering how hard staff try to make their sponsored clan options attractive, I do get the feeling that indies clans are at best annoyances for staff, especially with what seems to be a trend with a number of tribe/clans taking up the role of hunters lately.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 10:08:52 AM by Dresan »
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Spider

  • Posts: 322
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #251 on: July 02, 2020, 04:49:19 PM »
Hello,

One thing I would like to see is a change to the sitting code for silt skimmers.  As of now, the sitting code is incredibly punishing not only if an NPC attacks your PC, but also cumbersome to navigate while piloting a skimmer.  To be more specific, to thoroughly navigate the silt and look for NPC's one must constantly stand, look in all directions, sit, pilot a direction, stand, look, sit, pilot a direction, and on and on.  I've found this process incredibly taxing on my fingers physically, as well as difficult in maintaining some semblance of organization of thought, typing ability, and my PC's position.  Things get worse when your PC has other PCs' lives in its hands.  As a result, emoting becomes a secondary thing.  I find this to be a shame, given how fun it is to RP a skimmer pilot.

I suggest the fall off while skimming code be removed.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 04:58:45 PM by Spider »

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 1057
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #252 on: July 02, 2020, 07:05:48 PM »
I suggest the fall off while skimming code be removed.

I've never had the pleasure of skimmer riding. Lol is this what happens when you stand=>walk? That's ridiculous. I knew it was dangerous, but that's borderline bug territory.
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.

Heade

  • Posts: 923
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #253 on: July 02, 2020, 07:58:02 PM »
Just in case it hasn't been viewed by the people watching this thread, I think re-opening Tuluk would be a good idea for all the reasons talked about in this active thread: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55898.0.html
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Spider

  • Posts: 322
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #254 on: July 02, 2020, 09:34:30 PM »
I suggest the fall off while skimming code be removed.

I've never had the pleasure of skimmer riding. Lol is this what happens when you stand=>walk? That's ridiculous. I knew it was dangerous, but that's borderline bug territory.

No, when you are standing on a skimmer and pilot a particular direction, your PC has a chance to fall off in the silt.  Sitting prevents this from happening.  The help files detail it, help skimmer.

Lotion

  • Posts: 820
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #255 on: July 02, 2020, 11:57:17 PM »
Has nobody in Zalanthas ever tried tethering themselves to the skimmer?

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2413
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #256 on: July 03, 2020, 01:07:06 AM »
Probably, but its not a coded feature so we can't actually do it effectively.

Lotion

  • Posts: 820
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #257 on: July 03, 2020, 01:11:50 AM »
Has nobody in Zalanthas ever tried tethering themselves to the skimmer?
would be nice to see this addressed

Lotion

  • Posts: 820
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #258 on: July 03, 2020, 03:05:35 AM »
concept: prompt an aliases being tied to account instead of character
Being able to switch prompts on the fly and also having a basic set of aliases that of my characters will have would be nice.
Some examples of aliases that I have repeatedly had:
* alias cld change ldesc
* a few aliases for changing between each language, accent, etc
* alias asv assess -v

would improve playability

Saellyn

  • Posts: 2536
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #259 on: July 03, 2020, 04:54:36 AM »
I imagine if you tether yourself to the skimmer, there are a lot of issues revolving around that as well.

For instance, if you were to still fall off the side, now all of your weight is dangling off the side. Now for a human, that might not be a big issue. But what if a half-giant were to fall over the side? I'm fairly certain the skimmer would capsize, at which point, everyone does, not just the one person who was standing.

I've never played around with skimmers, but I imagine typing
stop
stand

to cancel out your pilot commands wouldn't be hard. Especially in the silt, you shouldn't really be stacking pilot commands anyways, simply because it is that dangerous. Red Storm region is known for its brutal storms, likely in large part due to its proximity to a giant mass of just wide, open silt sea. I imagine the silt sea is very stormy as well, so being seated while moving is likely more to do with shielding yourself from horrendous winds while you're sailing on a rickety set of planks that probably barely floats to begin with.

Spider

  • Posts: 322
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #260 on: July 03, 2020, 05:41:28 AM »
I imagine if you tether yourself to the skimmer, there are a lot of issues revolving around that as well.

For instance, if you were to still fall off the side, now all of your weight is dangling off the side. Now for a human, that might not be a big issue. But what if a half-giant were to fall over the side? I'm fairly certain the skimmer would capsize, at which point, everyone does, not just the one person who was standing.

I've never played around with skimmers, but I imagine typing
stop
stand

to cancel out your pilot commands wouldn't be hard. Especially in the silt, you shouldn't really be stacking pilot commands anyways, simply because it is that dangerous. Red Storm region is known for its brutal storms, likely in large part due to its proximity to a giant mass of just wide, open silt sea. I imagine the silt sea is very stormy as well, so being seated while moving is likely more to do with shielding yourself from horrendous winds while you're sailing on a rickety set of planks that probably barely floats to begin with.

Unfortunately, this is a complete misinterpretation of my post, which may be my fault and/or your lack of interaction with silt skimmers.  The commands are not stacked in a queue.  Thus, my statement that navigating while piloting a silt skimmer is cumbersome and painful on the fingers.

To be more thorough on what it looks like:
pilot east;stand;l n;l s;l e;sit;pilot e;stand;l n;l s;l e;sit;pilot e... and so on.

Furthermore, I was not suggesting some IC work around, though thanks to those that offered such solutions.  I suggested a removal of the fall off while skimming code in order to reduce its cumbersome nature, painful effects on the fingers, and punishing combat consequences.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 05:52:43 AM by Spider »

triste

  • Posts: 1352
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #261 on: July 16, 2020, 01:08:01 PM »
Vaguely on the topic of more grunt work, vaguely on the topic of more smokables and brought to mind by the new release notes about mount stables... farming. People want it and have mentioned it on discord etc. Would love to see some crude implementation. Many ancient itinerant cultures have developed crude farming simply from the observation that seeds they dropped at certain places would grow. Example, I read at some point that ancient Koreans would plant small clusters or even singular plants along trails they traveled as markers and to gather as they travel. My point in bringing this up is Zalanthan agriculture need not resemble modern western agriculture, therefore farming isn't against setting and can be adapted to fit the setting.

I have seen some people try to farm plants IG, but it would be awesome to see plant farming get coded love like animal breeding gets coded love as shown in the release notes today. It's a harsh desert wasteland but also aren't Inixes herbivous and known for their huge appetites? WTH are they eating when kept in the south? IDK, I think it is ecologically reasonable to allow some very small scale farming if only to support stuff like feeding your inixes at this fancy new Kasix stable [or, don't even allow inixes there].

Plant farming might also open more agriculture type roleplay for those excluded from animal-centric agriculture such as elves as well.

Lastly, people wanted more smokables and have also lamented the economics of spice. Growing smokables would be a blast.

TLDR; people have mentioned wanting farming before and have offered their own awesome ideas. Wanted to mention again now that it is timely.
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message me if something there needs an update.

Shalooonsh

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1825
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #262 on: July 16, 2020, 01:25:33 PM »
On the subject of skimmers:

Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.

We, as staff, WANT the Silt Sea to be deadly.  We WANT that experience of you, as a player, thinking "Okay every time I step on this skimmer, my PC can die in a blink.  Am I willing to take this risk?  Are the gains that high?"  We WANT there to be mysteries which, much like the styrax stuff, was literally in game FOR A WHOLE YEAR before people started going "Oh, holy crap, look at this!"  There needs to be mystery, and the best way to make mystery stay a mystery is by making Death the price for failing to get the answer.

Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer.  I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well. 
I seduced the daughters of men
And made the death of them.
I demanded human sacrifices
From the rest of them.
I became the spirit that haunted
And protected them.
And I lived in the tower of flame
But death collected them.
-War is my Destiny, Ill Bill

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 1057
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #263 on: July 16, 2020, 01:42:14 PM »
I prefer the latter to the former. I'm constantly hearing about horrors and not how slippery silt is.

Also you could allow PCs to look while seated on a skimmer and it sounds like it would fix the problem.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 01:45:43 PM by gotdamnmiracle »
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1671
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #264 on: July 16, 2020, 01:55:58 PM »
On the subject of skimmers:

Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.

Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer.  I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well.

An area full of death and reward sounds really great.

 However, what spider is describing does make the code seem rather clunky.  Tethering may be too safe but perhaps it doesn't have to feel as clumpy syntax wise to keep the place dangerous?

ICly dangerous is fun, but OOCly annoying not so much.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 02:17:41 PM by Dresan »
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Saellyn

  • Posts: 2536
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #265 on: July 16, 2020, 03:28:25 PM »
Just remember. You've never heard stories about Amos, who swam through the Silt Sea. There's a reason for that.

Spider

  • Posts: 322
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #266 on: July 16, 2020, 10:39:12 PM »
On the subject of skimmers:

Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.

Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer.  I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well.

An area full of death and reward sounds really great.

 However, what spider is describing does make the code seem rather clunky.  Tethering may be too safe but perhaps it doesn't have to feel as clumpy syntax wise to keep the place dangerous?

ICly dangerous is fun, but OOCly annoying not so much.

This is really the crux of my point.  The silt sea being dangerous is great, but the OOC stuff with falling off a skimmer is painful both physically and mentally.  The IG negatives that surround a seated PC heighten those OOC downsides.  I don't think the Silt sea ceases to be deadly by removing this code.  Furthermore, the addition of other things to make it more deadly is fine by me.

Edited to add:  Another option would be to remove the penalty to scan while seated on a skimmer.  That'd remove two different command inputs per command cycle, while combing over the silt.  This way, NPCs are still as dangerous, but also one does not need to work their fingers as hard.  This would also put it closer to the feel of exploring while mounted or walking.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 11:15:26 PM by Spider »

NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 147
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #267 on: July 16, 2020, 11:33:22 PM »
On the subject of skimmers:

Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.

Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer.  I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well.

An area full of death and reward sounds really great.

 However, what spider is describing does make the code seem rather clunky.  Tethering may be too safe but perhaps it doesn't have to feel as clumpy syntax wise to keep the place dangerous?

ICly dangerous is fun, but OOCly annoying not so much.

This is really the crux of my point.  The silt sea being dangerous is great, but the OOC stuff with falling off a skimmer is painful both physically and mentally.  The IG negatives that surround a seated PC heighten those OOC downsides.  I don't think the Silt sea ceases to be deadly by removing this code.  Furthermore, the addition of other things to make it more deadly is fine by me.

Edited to add:  Another option would be to remove the penalty to scan while seated on a skimmer.  That'd remove two different command inputs per command cycle, while combing over the silt.  This way, NPCs are still as dangerous, but also one does not need to work their fingers as hard.  This would also put it closer to the feel of exploring while mounted or walking.

Sounds good on the surface, though it detracts from realism.. and quite frankly, a way around this is having actual lookout people come along as a crew.  It would be advantageous to bring multiple people with you on a skimmer as crew, not only so they can be effective lookouts while someone else is busy trying to pilot, but they can also be backup pilots, backup medics, etc.

Spider

  • Posts: 322
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #268 on: July 16, 2020, 11:35:59 PM »
On the subject of skimmers:

Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.

Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer.  I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well.

An area full of death and reward sounds really great.

 However, what spider is describing does make the code seem rather clunky.  Tethering may be too safe but perhaps it doesn't have to feel as clumpy syntax wise to keep the place dangerous?

ICly dangerous is fun, but OOCly annoying not so much.

This is really the crux of my point.  The silt sea being dangerous is great, but the OOC stuff with falling off a skimmer is painful both physically and mentally.  The IG negatives that surround a seated PC heighten those OOC downsides.  I don't think the Silt sea ceases to be deadly by removing this code.  Furthermore, the addition of other things to make it more deadly is fine by me.

Edited to add:  Another option would be to remove the penalty to scan while seated on a skimmer.  That'd remove two different command inputs per command cycle, while combing over the silt.  This way, NPCs are still as dangerous, but also one does not need to work their fingers as hard.  This would also put it closer to the feel of exploring while mounted or walking.

Sounds good on the surface, though it detracts from realism.. and quite frankly, a way around this is having actual lookout people come along as a crew.  It would be advantageous to bring multiple people with you on a skimmer as crew, not only so they can be effective lookouts while someone else is busy trying to pilot, but they can also be backup pilots, backup medics, etc.

Sounds good on the surface as well, but your scouts have the same penalties.  They'll have to st, look all directions, sit, etc.  Furthermore, good luck getting enough PCs together to accomplish all that. I've tried separating scout and pilot roles, but it did not get any less clunky.  Thanks for the suggestion though.

Not sure what realism has to do with a sea of silt and the inability to see as well seated on a skimmer as you can while seated on a war beetle.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 11:42:29 PM by Spider »

NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 147
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #269 on: July 16, 2020, 11:51:45 PM »
I see it as like driving a car.  The driver needs to be paying attention more to what's in front of them and how they are carefully handling the vehicle. They can't afford to be rubbernecking. That is dangerous.

On the sea, especially when swells get big, I imagine that the pilot has to not only be trying to manage how to be getting over them properly without tipping over or getting too many waves over the skimmer, but also paying attention to the wind.

Riding animals, while it's kind of true to an extent.. the animals are at least kind of paying attention to what's in front of them already, and just navigating the terrain itself isn't really a danger.

Spider

  • Posts: 322
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #270 on: July 16, 2020, 11:57:19 PM »
I see it as like driving a car.  The driver needs to be paying attention more to what's in front of them and how they are carefully handling the vehicle. They can't afford to be rubbernecking. That is dangerous.

On the sea, especially when swells get big, I imagine that the pilot has to not only be trying to manage how to be getting over them properly without tipping over or getting too many waves over the skimmer, but also paying attention to the wind.

Riding animals, while it's kind of true to an extent.. the animals are at least kind of paying attention to what's in front of them already, and just navigating the terrain itself isn't really a danger.

So therefore they shouldn't be able to see well even in front of them or looking into a mirror to check a blind spot, or stopping the car to look up and down an intersection?

I suppose realism must mean making stuff up to justify a position.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 12:04:41 AM by Spider »

NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 147
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #271 on: July 17, 2020, 02:24:19 AM »
Realism means the game behaving like you would expect in the real world. And no, someone concentrating on driving will likely see something in front of them. But very unlikely something to the sides or behind them. I suppose you think skimmers have mirrors on them? lol  Sounds like you just don't know how to gracefully lose an argument.

I definitely agree that other crew on the skimmers should be able to be sitting down and be able to look all around without a huge penalty.  But still, not penalty completely. After all, you should be able to see more/better if you're standing.

Spider

  • Posts: 322
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #272 on: July 17, 2020, 02:34:13 AM »
Realism means the game behaving like you would expect in the real world. And no, someone concentrating on driving will likely see something in front of them. But very unlikely something to the sides or behind them. I suppose you think skimmers have mirrors on them? lol  Sounds like you just don't know how to gracefully lose an argument.

I definitely agree that other crew on the skimmers should be able to be sitting down and be able to look all around without a huge penalty.  But still, not penalty completely. After all, you should be able to see more/better if you're standing.

Look who's talking, learn to read.

I was taking your analogy further while staying within the analogy.  My argument was never about realism, you brought it up as a misrepresentation of my argument.  My argument concerns the OOC pain I've experienced specifically with exploring on a skimmer and do not experience with any other aspect of the game.  I've been playing this game off and on for eleven years.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 02:47:42 AM by Spider »

NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 147
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #273 on: July 17, 2020, 02:56:30 AM »
Look who's talking, learn to read.

I was taking your analogy further while staying within the analogy.  My argument was never about realism, you brought it up as a straw man to my argument.  My argument concerns the OOC pain I've experienced specifically with exploring on a skimmer and do not experience with any other aspect of the game.  I've been playing this game off and on for eleven years.

I made perfectly valid argument citing realism because it makes sense to not be able to see as well when you're sitting down on the skimmer and even moreso while you are distracted piloting. I brought in the example of driving a car because of course, you can't pay attention to everything around you and drive at the same time safely.

You then took the car analogy "further" and ruined it when you completely failed to make a connection between blind spots, mirrors, stopping at intersections, and piloting a skimmer. These bear no relevance at all, actually. I'm afraid the only one making strawmen is you, when after you butcher up the analogy into something that no long even applies anymore, you condescendingly say my using realism is just making stuff up. On top of that, you tell me to learn how to read.

I don't care how long you've been playing. You've no right to speak rudely.

Spider

  • Posts: 322
Re: Content and creation
« Reply #274 on: July 17, 2020, 03:31:53 AM »
Look who's talking, learn to read.

I was taking your analogy further while staying within the analogy.  My argument was never about realism, you brought it up as a straw man to my argument.  My argument concerns the OOC pain I've experienced specifically with exploring on a skimmer and do not experience with any other aspect of the game.  I've been playing this game off and on for eleven years.

I made perfectly valid argument citing realism because it makes sense to not be able to see as well when you're sitting down on the skimmer and even moreso while you are distracted piloting. I brought in the example of driving a car because of course, you can't pay attention to everything around you and drive at the same time safely.

You then took the car analogy "further" and ruined it when you completely failed to make a connection between blind spots, mirrors, stopping at intersections, and piloting a skimmer. These bear no relevance at all, actually. I'm afraid the only one making strawmen is you, when after you butcher up the analogy into something that no long even applies anymore, you condescendingly say my using realism is just making stuff up. On top of that, you tell me to learn how to read.

I don't care how long you've been playing. You've no right to speak rudely.

Fair enough, I didn't mean to be rude with the realism thing, but did with the grace point you made.  I do appreciate your view on the passenger vision, but with the way skimmers work as code, I'm not sure how one would go about implementing that.  Skimmer code is strange when it comes to the pilot and the passengers.  I still disagree with your notion that driving a car means you cannot see objects as well as you could otherwise,  we'll just have to chock it up there.  I know one can make mistakes with seeing while driving, but one can also make mistakes with seeing while walking.  Chance to fail with pilot and scan already does this as far as IG.

I'm passionate about the silt sea.  It is an exciting place filled with many RP opportunities.  The way the silt code, scan code, and skimmer code converge though, has OOC downsides that in my view hinders such opportunities.  I brought up two solutions to resolve those downsides.  One being the removal of the falling off code, and the other a change to the scan penalty while sitting on a skimmer.  These solutions are strictly OOC measures, and both individually would resolve the OOC downsides.  I'm not saying those are the only two, but nothing about my view has anything to do with realism.  It is strictly a way to make exploring that region more pleasant on an OOC level.

My apologies for getting worked up and taking it out on you.

Edited to add:  It gets frustrating that I am talking about the pain in my hands due to all of the commands I must input, and others bring up realism as a point of disagreement.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 04:26:04 AM by Spider »