Idea: You deftly block the blow with the annoying f'me PC

[Malifaxis]

I told myself I wouldn't do this anymore, because my ideas seem to suck.

BUT here I am.  Doing it again.

Okay, subdue is the shit already, but... it's kind of annoying in certain times.  The time that immediately flashes to mind is when you, per se, subdue a black robed templar and then a frothing, crazed guardsman comes at you with a sword.

You can:

A: Drop the templar and run like bitch
B: Keep the templar and run like bitch
C: Drop the templar and die like bitch while fighting

You can not:

IV: Block the damn sword with the templar.
5:  Throw the damn templar at the guardsman and run like bitch.

So I propose yet another thing that would have to take hours and hours of coding probably, but would be INFINITELY AWESOME, not only for code based ass whooping, but also for RP.

I propose the (dramatic dun-dun-DUN sound)
HOSTAGE command!!!

This would be not a coded skill so much as a command that bases off of skills, like shadow.  You would have to make a successful subdue attempt and then 'hostage target'.  By hostaging your target, you would have a way to dissuade those sharp things from going through your soft parts.

You deftly parry an incoming attack with your hostage's head.

An arrow comes flying in from the west, but you stop it with your hostage's groin!

This would allow, just like in real life, crazy ass freaky people to take other people prisoner in the hopes of dissuading harm to the freaky person by promoting harm to the prisoner person.

Right now it stands at this:

The crazy ass freaky PC subdues the annoying F'me PC.

With a growl as he holds the annoying F'me PC before him, the crazy ass freaky PC says, in sirihish;
"Stay back, or da dame gets it!  Ya neva take me alive, Templars!  Nyah, see?"

Heroic d00d walks straight up to the crazy ass freaky PC and smacks him upside the head with a flagon from the bar, knocking him out like a biznitch.

WHERE'S THE TENSION?!?!  WHERE'S THE SUSPENSE?!?!  The last line SHOULD look like this!

Heroic d00d walks straight up to the crazy ass freaky PC and attempts to smack him upside the head with a flagon from the bar, but the crazy ass freaky PC whips the annoying F'me PC around and blocks the blow, shattering her skull!

Another thing I would *LOVE* to see is the ability to smack some crackhead upside the head with another crackhead.

Subdue blah
You subdue the blah faced man despite his attempts to resist.

The heroic d00d has arrived from the west, looking particularly heroic.

His obscenely proportioned lantern jaw moving comically, the heroic d00d exclaims, in sirihish;
"Drop that citizen, evil doer!"

You think:  Viva la resistance! (tm to... whoever first started me on that)

throw blah heroic

You hurl the blah faced man at the heroic d00d, and they both go down in a sprawling tangle of limbs!

Okay... so seriously.  What do you guys think?  Good ideas, bad ideas?

Malifaxis
-Who has still stolen ShaLeah's -who thingy
-Who really sucks at indexing
-Who hopes this idea doesn't suck nearly as much as his others seem to

[gfair]

Great idea, but appeals only to the sneaky types, in my mind.  Burglars, Assassins, Thieves, the people who would hold someone for ransom/defense/torture.

Other than that, sounds great.

[jhunter(notlogged)]

I idea'd something similar to this a while back if I remember right....I was thinking about it anyways, I can't remember for certain if I did...hrmmm...
But I'm all for it, I think it would be more realistic if you could.
Like while someone's subdued and like you said you "hostage target", then any attacks coming at you hit the target instead.
I like the idea of being able to throw a subdued person at someone...wait you can can't you?
release <subdued person> target or something like whatever it is to pass a subdued person off to someone else?
I can't remember I haven't done it in a while.

[X-D]

Fun for all, something for giants to do with annoying halflings, and for dwarves to do with them stinking elves.

Actually, I like it, I can see it getting used lots.

[Rindan]

I think throwing someone at another person is a tad silly, but I love the idea of a hostage command.  I can think of more then one instance where I might of at least had a chance to save mylife if I had been able to perform it.

I would put some stipulations on it though.  I would make it so that the initial attempt to take a hostage strongly depends upon your opponents combat skills.  Trying to take hostage a Byn sergeant who can fight a mek with one hand tied behind his back should result in a broken limbs.  It shouldn't be a way for a weaker person to kill a stronger person.  In other words, if you couldn't normally hit them, then you sure as hell should not be able to take them hostage.  I don't want to see hostage become the prefered way to kill someone like the way subdue used to be the way to kill someone without fail.

If you want to get real fancy, you could make two types of hostage attempts.  One is the less then subtle bad ass warrior shoving his way through the crowd grabbing someone and threatening to beat the shit out of them.  The other way is for the sneaky assassin to sneak up on them level a knife against their throat before anyone knows what is happening.

I would let the person who has been taken hostage have a chance to fight out of it if they are decent at combat.  So, an assassin might be able to sneak up on a Byn sergeant, but if the sergeant decides he doesn't like that knife near his neck he has a decent chance of removing it with minimal pain.  A merchant on the other hand would likely stand no chance of removing it himself.

A body guard could attempt a rescue, but of course if it fails the hostage taker would automatically start getting stabby with their hostage and using the hostage to fend off attacks.  While holding a hostage you probably would suck and parrying off attacks and would take a lot of damage, but so would the hostage, on top of the stabbing you are doing yourself.  In other words, it would be bad news to fail rescuing a hostage.

I would really like the idea so long as it was used to take hostages, not to get around the fact that a warrior can kick your ass.

[Wintermute]

I love this idea.

However, like Rindan, I'd like to see it not automagically succeed after using the 'takehostage' command.  In addition to his suggestions, perhaps agility and to a lesser degree, strength could serve as checks, possibly against your hostage's stats to see if you manage any success - this could be in getting the hostage into the position (man, that sounds dirty) or in getting the offending blows to bounce of said hostage's face instead of your own.  The reverse could work for 'hostage tossing'.

[Anonymous]

I think what is meant by throwing someone at another isn't -literally- picking them up and throwing them at them.
More like you shove them stumbling at someone as a distraction so you can get away.
I think it should go off of subdue, you have to be able to subdue them in order to take them hostage.

[Bestatte]

It sounds to me like you're attempting to turn the "subdued" into a virtual shield. I think it's a great idea! Since the hostage isn't a properly proportioned carved shield-like object, it probably wouldn't protect as much as a real shield, but might give a fair and moderate bonus to your defensive ability, and work off your shield skill.

[Quirk]

Having been away for several months... was subdue ever fixed to bring it in line with unarmed attacks on people holding weapons they're proficient in, or is it still a twinky way of bypassing the combat checks?

Quirk

[Rindan]

Having been away for several months... was subdue ever fixed to bring it in line with unarmed attacks on people holding weapons they're proficient in, or is it still a twinky way of bypassing the combat checks?

I have not tried it in a while, but last I heard they made it so that it no longer allows you to draw a weapon while you have someone.  I would imagine though that it still is an annoying way to skip around the fact that someone is a bad ass warrior.

[Wintermute]

I'm not sure the imms ever saw the ignoring of weapons during a subdue attempt to be something that was broken.

Of course, I completely agree it is silly and always have.  Maybe if we keep whining about it, they might consider changing it.  

[Quirk]

I'm not sure the imms ever saw the ignoring of weapons during a subdue attempt to be something that was broken

I don't see that there is any possible argument that it isn't broken, if no change has been made. Striking someone with your bare hand is always going to be easier than employing a grappling technique that will immobilise them. I don't know of a single reputable grappling (or non-grappling) martial art that claims to be effective unarmed against someone trained in using a weapon. Striking someone trained and armed with your bare hand is at present hard. That's as it should be. Closing that bit further to within grappling range and successfully trapping them with a grappling technique is much easier, and that is quite plainly broken.

In some ways, the inability to draw weapons while subduing someone is the wrong fix. If a judoka or wrestler manages to pin their opponent, the odds are good that they can progress into a position where they can go for a strangle or choke or lock/break. Damaging someone who is rendered helpless through grappling isn't all that hard. Getting the grappling technique to work in the first place is significantly harder.

All that said, I suspect I know why subdue remains or remained as it is or was. There is the issue of NPC guards, all scripted to tuck away their weapons and attempt a subdue whether the target is armed or not. If the requisite change was made, there could well be a lot of dead guards. But then again, maybe not, as if I remember rightly a failed subdue results in guards drawing weapons and cutting the offender down.

Quirk

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

All that said, I suspect I know why subdue remains or remained as it is or was. There is the issue of NPC guards, all scripted to tuck away their weapons and attempt a subdue whether the target is armed or not. If the requisite change was made, there could well be a lot of dead guards. But then again, maybe not, as if I remember rightly a failed subdue results in guards drawing weapons and cutting the offender down.

Quirk

I don't think that is the huge issue. Such an issue is fixable by simply introducing a check to see whether the soldier is a NPC or not.

That said, I have no problem with the subdue code as it is currently.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Malifaxis, I want to have your babies. Unfortunately, I have the incorrect type of genitalia, so I guess I'll have to settle for supporting your brilliant idea whole-heartedly.

[Angela Christine]

While we are on the topic of using live bodies as shields or weapons, what about using just part of a body?  I've always wanted to see a mul (or half-giant) rip someone's arm off and beat them with it.  

I'm not sure how it would work code-wise.  You'd have to grapple the target and then be strong enough to pull apart the flesh, shoulder joint, tendons, etc., plus break the fasteners on the arm/shoulder armor if the arm armor is virtually attatched to the body armor.  Even a mul could probably only do it on a relatively thin and unarmored person.  It would be more a showpiece move than something useful in ordinary combat, because if an arm was so weak you could rip it off with your bare hands then it probably isn't going to be a very good weapon.  Still, it would be very cool to see in the arena someday.

AC

[John]

I've always wanted to see a mul (or half-giant) rip someone's arm off and beat them with it.

I've seen arms coded on a simple LPMud. If you had one arm, you could only wield one weapon.

It's kinda sad the Diku code stops that sort of thing from happening

[Quirk]

I've always wanted to see a mul (or half-giant) rip someone's arm off and beat them with it.

I've seen arms coded on a simple LPMud. If you had one arm, you could only wield one weapon.

It's kinda sad the Diku code stops that sort of thing from happening

Eh, nonsense, I've played far less modified Diku muds than this which had that coded.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

I've always wanted to see a mul (or half-giant) rip someone's arm off and beat them with it.

I've seen arms coded on a simple LPMud. If you had one arm, you could only wield one weapon.

It's kinda sad the Diku code stops that sort of thing from happening

They have this in Armageddon.

[Cuttlefish]

If you had one arm, you could only wield one weapon.

It's kinda sad the Diku code stops that sort of thing from happening

There are TWO Arms?  What the address of the other one?

[John]

They have this in Armageddon.

Really? I've never come across someone codedly loosing an arm in combat  :shock:

[Anonymous]

I misunderstood you John.  There is code in place to support someone who wants to roleplay having lost an arm so that they can only wield one weapon.

[John]

You mean other then just not typing "hold stuff?" there's actually code stopping you from accidently wielding stuff with two hands if you don't want too? That's pretty cool

[Anonymous]

I'm pretty sure it does all of that, but you'd have ask the staff for sure.  But I'm positive there's something in the game for this already.

[Angela Christine]

Yep, you can be modified so that you only have one coded arm, one wrist, one hand.  You can still wear a pair of sleeves and a pair of gloves, because you can't buy just one sleeve or just one glove.  You can only wear one bracer or bracelet, because you only have one wrist.  No dual wielding or etwoing.  Strangely you still have 10 fingers, so if you wear rings you have to do a little manuvering to make sure that they all end up on the same hand.  Since you can't choose which finger you have to wear a ring you want, then a temporary one, the second ring you want, another decoy, and so on, and then remove all the rings on your left hand so that you are left with rings only on your right hand, or vice versa.

I remember one guy posted on the board a while back that he had had a chracter with only one arm, and asked to change from having his primary arm intact to having his secondary arm instead, because there are so many non-weapon objects that can held but not wielded.  Of course that means that he couldn't use weapons that are primary hand only, but there aren't many of those.

I don't think the code allows for any sort of automatic dismemberment, if something that would destroy your arm happens an imm has to alter your character manually.  While they are at it they will probably knock you out too, since it would be a serious shock to the system.  The coded support for having just one arm has some quirks, but there is some support for it.

AC

[Anonymous]

It sounds like an awesome idea.

The thrown hostage thing could give the heroic dood a chance to dodge it though. The hero sidesteps the stumbling hostage. Now he will chop off your head.

And have the abducter with a chance to block the blow, and the attacker a chance to attack and get past the flimsy subdued man. (Which might be strenous for the subdued lol).

And as for the point that it only affects thugs and thieves, well DUHR. Merchants don't usually go around subdueing templars and holding them hostage.