Author Topic: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy  (Read 3983 times)

Vex

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Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« on: November 15, 2018, 02:46:53 PM »
I'd really rather pcs be encouraged to buy tools from other pcs, and for other pcs to actually make and sell tools. It's weird, when you want to buy tools, and pcs say sorry, they don't make tools, there's more money in swords... because they sell all their tools to npcs, and pcs buy those tools from npcs, instead of pc crafters... because they sell all their tools to npcs, and pcs buy those tools from npcs, instead of pc crafters... because they

Oh, right.

Shovels are luxury, and you can collect feces with your hands if none are available, so I don't see it as a concern. There is also the option, to custom craft, something like a crude shovel, from a long piece of bone and a piece of basalt, which is entirely in player hands. We can add our own quality of life items, too.

Haede, get on it.

Do agree, on the newbie gear being available in game, though.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 07:34:02 PM by Delirium »
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Synthesis

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2018, 02:52:33 PM »
Shovels are luxury...

Custom craft a shovel...

Ummmm...ok.
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Vex

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2018, 03:02:21 PM »
Yes, you can custom craft things, that are not ninja armor, he-man swords, or fanciful bejeweled baubles, you know. It's perfectly fine, to make a shovel, or a bucket, or some other simple and practical thing, if the game is lacking in them, or you think people would find them useful.

There actually was a pc merchant, who sold their own shovels and other practical things, back when I started, and I bought them right up. I thought, it was a neat thing to do.

Why the attitude?
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Synthesis

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2018, 03:25:05 PM »
I'm not talking about what's already possible in the game.  We're all perfectly aware of that.

My point was twofold:

1) The words "luxury" and "custom" typically are not associated with the word "shovel."  This is mildly humorous.

2) From the standpoint of economics and human behavior...-generally- speaking, given the option to pursue a more valuable vs. a less valuable payoff given a set time constraint, humans will choose the more valuable.  As this relates to game design...I mean...the theoretical implications are -pretty- obvious, if you aren't being obtuse.  The -practical- effects have already been demonstrated:  there have been more Red Robe templars in the game than there have been shovel mastercrafters.

I mean...another example is like...obsidian axes.  There are actually some cool ones you can put together, but you never see them in-game, because the crafting process for them is badly-designed.

For a common one, you have to:
1) Hack a deposit for a large chunk of obsidian. (This can take a really long time if your forage skill sucks.)
2) Craft that into a large shard. (But it would be so much easier to just give the large chunk to the templars for 50 'sid, or sell it to like, a jewelrymaker or armorcrafter for 100, without having to risk failing the crafting process and wasting your time.)
3) Use axe-making to craft the shard into a blade. (However, Dune Trader is the only class that gets axe-making without swordmaking...and at this point, you can make 3 different types of swords just with that large shard, 2 of which are just as valuable as your final axe product would be, without going through the extra crafting steps!  So only Dune Traders have an incentive to continue past this step.)
4) Find a particular type of branch.
5) Woodcraft a haft.  (Only Artisans, Craftspersons, and Dune Traders get woodcrafting -and- axe-making! And we already know that only Dune Traders have an incentive to continue to this point, in the first place.)
6) Axe-make the haft and blade into the actual axe.

PS: Dune Trader forage is trash, so hey, have fun with foraging wood and hacking 'sid.

And this is why you rarely ever see PC-crafted axes in the shops.  Ain't nobody got time for that.  Sure it would be great for PCs to work together...but uh...okay...who's going to spend their time foraging wood for cheap hafts to trade to their axe-making buddy, when you can forage that wood and make shit out of it yourself that's probably more valuable than the axe would be?  And keep in mind, this is to make an item that you can sell for anywhere from 6-10 times the sell price of a shovel.  Still nobody fucking bothers with it.  That is a -game design- problem, not a player initiative problem.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 04:08:38 PM by Synthesis »
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Heade

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2018, 04:08:24 PM »
Synthesis makes a good point. I hear people talk about wanting crafters to custom craft shitty, makeshift implements with their custom crafts. But, the problem is, custom crafting is an IC activiity. If staff was asking for OOC item submissions, as they used to take, I'm sure this wouldn't be a problem to get more low-quality items and gear.

But ICly, people do what is economically beneficial for them IG, and it makes perfect sense for them to do so. With custom crafting limited to 1 per RL month, and often not being submitted for until the character has already lived for a RL month, then taking 1-2 RL months to get approved and IG, no one wants to wait that long IC for a stool seat with a leather strap attached to the back for a makeshift shield worth twenty sid.

Players generally content to make shitty, makeshift items are likely(but not in all cases) players who don't play crafters at all, or who don't care enough about custom crafting to give up a real subclass to be able to do it. A single custom craft often represents IC years of design and implementation for a PC from the time they start working on such a design till it finally becomes represented IG. With all the IC and OOC sacrifices someone makes to be able to custom craft/mastercraft something, it is no surprise at all that people generally shy away from using them to make slipshod, low-quality items.
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seidhr

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2018, 04:39:49 PM »
Yes, you can custom craft things, that are not ninja armor, he-man swords, or fanciful bejeweled baubles, you know. It's perfectly fine, to make a shovel, or a bucket, or some other simple and practical thing, if the game is lacking in them, or you think people would find them useful.

Amen.

The best custom crafts are honestly when people take an existing item that isn't craftable and just make a recipe for it.  And that's something that is cool, and lasting.

Heade

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2018, 04:45:52 PM »
Yes, you can custom craft things, that are not ninja armor, he-man swords, or fanciful bejeweled baubles, you know. It's perfectly fine, to make a shovel, or a bucket, or some other simple and practical thing, if the game is lacking in them, or you think people would find them useful.

Amen.

The best custom crafts are honestly when people take an existing item that isn't craftable and just make a recipe for it.  And that's something that is cool, and lasting.

Bleh, I don't think so. I think I've volunteered for staff at least twice specifically in order to do this without using up people's custom crafting requests. It seems like it'd be a good staffside project, rather than putting the onus on the CHARACTERS to do something that doesn't really benefit them IC at all.

Custom crafts are an IC thing, after all. And what you're suggesting really makes a lot more sense as an OOC, player or staff driven idea that doesn't take away or impact a character's ability to do something useful IC.
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Synthesis

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2018, 06:13:56 PM »
I just spent the better part of 2 hours trying to craft a shovel, and made a whole 22 'sid out out of it, which is actually -47 'sid if you factor in the cost of water and stabling fees.

This could be fixed without a major code change, so it's kind of on-topic?

The admins need to find someone with a) OCD and b) a lot of free time to go through all the scrub-tier crafting recipes and normalize them.

Or I mean...we could just accept that nobody's ever going to have a fucking shovel in Allanak.
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Heade

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2018, 06:24:11 PM »
I just spent the better part of 2 hours trying to craft a shovel, and made a whole 22 'sid out out of it, which is actually -47 'sid if you factor in the cost of water and stabling fees.

This could be fixed without a major code change, so it's kind of on-topic?

The admins need to find someone with a) OCD and b) a lot of free time to go through all the scrub-tier crafting recipes and normalize them.

Or I mean...we could just accept that nobody's ever going to have a fucking shovel in Allanak.

I've offered to do this a couple times, along with making crafting recipes for all the low-tier, simple items IG that currently don't have recipes.

I would like to see a more robust crafting system, without relying on PCs to use up their custom crafts to make an existing bone knife craftable from a piece of bone.

+1 to bringing on a builder/staffer to just do it. It would squash a lot of the debate around how people should use their custom crafts, and instead just let them be a fun thing and RP hook for them IC.
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Bushranger

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2018, 07:23:29 PM »
Yes, you can custom craft things, that are not ninja armor, he-man swords, or fanciful bejeweled baubles, you know. It's perfectly fine, to make a shovel, or a bucket, or some other simple and practical thing, if the game is lacking in them, or you think people would find them useful.

Amen.

The best custom crafts are honestly when people take an existing item that isn't craftable and just make a recipe for it.  And that's something that is cool, and lasting.

There is a problem with this Seidhr since Analyze was recently changed and now things that don't have a crafting recipe analyze the same way as if you don't have the skill to craft them. How do you tell now if there is no recipe and they need to be custom crafted or you just don't have the skill to make it?
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2018, 11:54:36 AM »
Also, if we were making a recipe for an existing item, would that be something we'd use a portion of our master-crafting quota on? Because unless that item is cool from an OOC perspective, most folks won't want to spend that valuable commodity doing that.

If it doesn't use that quota, then Bushranger, I'd say additional recipes to make the same item aren't a bad investment.
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Boogerbear

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Re: Re: The Non-Coded Quality of Life Improvements Thread
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2018, 10:23:25 AM »
Yes, you can custom craft things, that are not ninja armor, he-man swords, or fanciful bejeweled baubles, you know. It's perfectly fine, to make a shovel, or a bucket, or some other simple and practical thing, if the game is lacking in them, or you think people would find them useful.

Amen.

The best custom crafts are honestly when people take an existing item that isn't craftable and just make a recipe for it.  And that's something that is cool, and lasting.

Yes, and I also like just how many more "simple" custom crafts there are from basic objects, like a chalton hide.

When I saw how many objects could be crafted from a chalton hide, I was like, whoa.

If you guys are ever bored, I would love to sit down and write some up one-ingredient recipes for objects that simply don't have crafting options yet, but I'd be just as happy to write up one or two item recipes for more common objects, too.


I've written this before, but I don't like the idea of more Byzantine items just being lost to time because no one would ever guess how to make those items.

What if more custom crafted items were added to in-game shops at some point after the character's depth, just so the recipe for a neat item had a better chance of not being lost forever because it was just really complex?
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Brokkr

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2018, 11:44:45 AM »
If you have seen an increase in simple craft recipes over the last year or so, it is much more likely the results of the meatcraft project than it is the result of folks custom crafting.

Miggy

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2018, 01:32:18 PM »
edited for not thinking first....

« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 01:38:13 PM by Miggy »
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Heade

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2018, 03:08:07 PM »
If you have seen an increase in simple craft recipes over the last year or so, it is much more likely the results of the meatcraft project than it is the result of folks custom crafting.

As I think it probably should be. I still think that, in general, making the crafting system more robust from a "simple crafts" perspective should be something that happens staffside, rather than through player Custom Crafts, because player custom crafts are an IC thing where the character doing the crafting would want to design something that benefits them economically and socially. Due to the length of time it takes to design a new custom craft, taking a year of a PC's life to make a board with a scrap of leather strapped to it as a makeshift shield is just silly.

Intentionally using custom crafts to make simple items that make the crafting system better for other crafters is, really, a violation of the spirit of roleplay, and not at all doing what a character would actually do IC. It is purely driven by OOC motivation.

Putting the onus on players to do that for you will never work when custom crafting has such a large IC impact. I mean, currently, people are even limiting their characters for it by having to take a subguild with zero skill impact on their characters. No one is doing that, making those sacrifices to their characters, for the ability to make a simple craft that they'll barely ever use IC because it has little to no economic or social benefit to them IC.

If we want to improve the crafting system by implementing more simple crafts, or by implementing recipes for items that don't currently have them, that would be best served by staff taking a close look at staff applications from people that have expressed an interest in coming on to staff to take on that project. I know those people exist.
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Boogerbear

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2018, 08:29:20 AM »
If you have seen an increase in simple craft recipes over the last year or so, it is much more likely the results of the meatcraft project than it is the result of folks custom crafting.

That's awesome.

If you ever want to have a similar drive for items, I would like to help.

but I realize it's easier writing items than implementing them into the game.
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JohnMichaelHenry

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2018, 08:40:50 AM »
This seems like a long thread for something that could be solved by, I don't know, put the shovels that already exist in the tool shop in Allanak.
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Heade

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2018, 01:00:11 PM »
This seems like a long thread for something that could be solved by, I don't know, put the shovels that already exist in the tool shop in Allanak.

That's because this thread isn't about the first post. The first post didn't start this discussion. This thread is about the topic, "Custom Crafting", and how it currently works from an IC perspective, and how some people think you should use your IC custom crafting ability to no economic benefit whatsoever, and instead use it to fulfil people's OOC desire for a better overall crafting system with more simple, rudimentary items.

This thread wasn't started by the OP. It was a discussion that happened in another, different thread, where the person who started the discussion disliked the direction their topic went, and so all of these posts got moderated out into their own thread. It's also why the flow of conversation doesn't entirely make sense, because not ALL related posts got moderated out.

This thread is a moderator hackjob. They should have just reposted the entire original thread here with a different thread name, and let us continue the conversation, since the conversation branched organically off of the original post, there. Or, just let people respond to ideas. Moderation really wasn't necessary.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 01:02:24 PM by Heade »
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Delirium

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2018, 01:13:15 PM »
It was a derail from the original topic, and it was subverting the purpose of that topic into a discussion on custom crafting. I'm sorry you don't agree with the decision, but I would rather allow the discussion to continue in a separate thread than remove or moderate out posts entirely. The discussion is valid, it just needs its own thread.
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Heade

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2018, 01:29:46 PM »
It was a derail from the original topic, and it was subverting the purpose of that topic into a discussion on custom crafting. I'm sorry you don't agree with the decision, but I would rather allow the discussion to continue in a separate thread than remove or moderate out posts entirely. The discussion is valid, it just needs its own thread.

It wasn't a derail. The entire conversation branched organically from your original post about shovels in that thread, and what else could/should be done about it. Virtually every post from that original thread was relevant to the discussion here, yet not all those posts were recopied here, so people have lost context.

I absolutely do understand that the conversation was dominating a thread that the thread title didn't prepare you for, but it did match your first post made in that thread. All of this conversation was a natural result of discussing your original idea in that thread. Changing it to a different thread title wasn't problematic for me. Just the fact that whoever moderated it didn't just recopy the entire thread over to this one with the different name.

Then, they could have pruned all the undesireable conversation from the "ideas" thread, I guess. I honestly don't believe in moderation from organic inter-related conversation. If a repetitious topic continues to come up in various related discussions, that probably means that something about the topic is very wrong, and desperately needs to be addressed. I feel like moderating that sort of thing out serves to sweep conversation and critique of ideas under the rug.

And all ideas should be challenged. If it's a good idea, it will survive the scrutiny without censorship.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 01:37:19 PM by Heade »
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Delirium

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2018, 01:37:01 PM »
The thread was meant to be a repository of ideas to simplify or improve areas of the game that can be confusing for newbies, and an extensive discussion of one or any of those ideas is detrimental to the purpose of that thread.

For what it's worth, I don't mind and I like the idea of custom crafting simple objects, and I've done it in the past.
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Heade

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2018, 02:00:55 PM »
The thread was meant to be a repository of ideas to simplify or improve areas of the game that can be confusing for newbies, and an extensive discussion of one or any of those ideas is detrimental to the purpose of that thread.

The problem is, a thread with ideas where those ideas can't be challenged, or alternatives proposed isn't a particularly useful thread. It gives the illusion that there is not any contention for ideas that may very well be contentious.

For what it's worth, I don't mind and I like the idea of custom crafting simple objects, and I've done it in the past.

Well, obviously that isn't a popular opinion for those who tend to custom craft the most, or people wouldn't have to keep harping on the idea. You don't have to force feed someone cake. If it's good, they'll eat it on their own. Unfortunately, this idea isn't cake. ;)

I feel like, many of the people suggesting that custom crafters use their custom crafts to make simple, low-quality, one and two ingredient crafts don't even play crafters, by and large. It is a very selfish, OOC driven suggestion to think that players of Custom Crafters should sacrifice so much on their characters just to OOCly improve the crafting of low-tier items. If a person playing a crafter WANTS to do that, great. If that is fun for you, by all means, have fun with your PC. But it shouldn't be something anyone should feel ANY sort of pressure to do.

I really don't know what the resistence to the idea of staff improving simple crafting recipes on their own is all about. I mean, a single staffer could do more for the crafting database in a month than all the custom crafts from all players over five years, even if they were all simple crafts. And I KNOW people have volunteered for staff to do this, because I'm one of them, and I've seen others express the same on the GDB.

For all the time and effort that has gone into the staff discussion of Custom Crafters blowing their custom crafts on items that have no IC benefit for the character designing them, if all that staff effort went into improving the item database instead, we wouldn't feel a NEED to suggest that players do something like that.
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Delirium

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2018, 02:09:31 PM »
Staff did a LOT of work on that area (see: meatcraft project). Could there be more done, sure, but let's not forget the enormous amount of work that's already been put into making simple crafts for common items.

To suggest that I didn't do a lot of custom crafts is disingenuous, as when I have characters who are capable of doing so, I submit one almost every month. Every single one of those filled some sort of gap that I perceived rather than being purely a vanity item, or was meant to serve a specific plot purpose, so yes, I was and am willing to "waste" my custom crafts on such things. I don't see it as a waste, because it is adding something to the game for everyone.
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Brokkr

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2018, 02:36:58 PM »
If you want a simple item in the game, custom crafting may give you the ability to get it there, assuming it is on theme. We don't necessarily need it, the game isn't really about content in that context, but some types of content creation are better suited to complementing RP.

The idea that custom crafting is meant towards economically advantaging your character is false. It is there to facilitate RP.  The better role players I have seen have a tendency to not have a play to win mentality, so economic gain from a MC is far secondary to driving a story with that ability. Vanity items typically don't drive a story much, especially when it is player OOC desire to be special or leave a mark driving them (I'm not just Junior Noble #567, I got this thing made for me especially!).

Heade

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Re: Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2018, 03:02:54 PM »
The idea that custom crafting is meant towards economically advantaging your character is false. It is there to facilitate RP. 

So, not entirely false.  ;)

If your character would be vying for economic advantage(which, most are), then that IS facilitating RP. Also, I basically agree with you, here. It's to facilitate RP, and should be used in ways that make sense for the character to spend that amount of time working on something. Whether it's economic motivation, emotional motivation, or whatever. There should be a motivation for a PC to spend that sort of time designing something new.

But the idea that custom crafting shouldn't necessarily be a benefit does bring up the question: If custom crafting isn't meant to be a benefit your PC, then why does a PC have to give up skills in order to get it? It's a "tradeoff" of useful skills for something that's...not supposed to be useful? That doesn't sound like it could possibly be correct in any sane game design.

To suggest that I didn't do a lot of custom crafts is disingenuous, as when I have characters who are capable of doing so, I submit one almost every month.

I wasn't suggesting you in particular. Just a lot of people who have commented on this issue in various threads are prolific posters about combat heavy classes, or have openly admitted elsewhere that they don't like to play crafters, yet they feel the need to weigh in on how crafters should use custom crafts. It gives the illusion that this idea, that you obviously subscribe to, has more traction with ACTUAL crafter players than it does.

If you play crafters who don't really try to make a name for themselves or accomplish anything through their crafts, there is nothing wrong with that. That's perfectly OK. It isn't heroic, or anything, though. I don't feel like it should be commended, or respected more than the player who DOES try to leverage their craft for IC benefit. This is a game. Ultimately, we're all here to have fun. Let people do that without shaming them over OOC nonsense.

My crafter making a vanity item for Noble X, might not advance a plot that is important to the game as a whole, or add a craftable item to the database for other crafters, but it may very well advance my own PC's plot in a way that results in a MASSIVE change in their lifestyle. Maybe they leverage that vanity item into gaining them a position among said Noble's staff, significantly altering their social standing and general quality of life. That is a very real, and significant IC reason to pursue such things.

People shouldn't be shamed OOCly for doing what their character would realistically do ICly. Which is what I feel like is happening every time a staffer says something like, "The best custom crafts are simple items, like making a recipe for an already existing but uncraftable item."
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.