Estranged Veterans' Perspective

[yousuff]

Sometimes spontaneous stuff does still effect the world regarding stuff I read above all of this. Back in late 2016 I randomly decided to subdue a barakhan lizard from the rooftops and bring it into the Byn training hall for funsies, and Akariel animated it without any prompt. Staff seemed to enjoy it enough that they made it a persistent NPC which you can now see in the Byn storeroom. That being said it's a very minor thing, but one of the few things I've actually managed to get persistent in my arm career not that I've really tried anything like it before or since. I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.

[boog]

That is very minor though. This thread has been about ceilings and hierarchy limits in game. While it's cool, and most staff strive to do that -- be spontaneous and do whatever they can to give players some enjoyment -- I don't think that's even close to the many points brought up in this thread.

Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.

[yousuff]

Sorry I didn't mean to infer I wasn't aware of that, I completely agree there are arbitrary limits on what you can and can't do based on staff's mood. I've also found OOC hurdles more difficult to overcome than IC ones with regards to getting something done, I only wanted to point out that the less ambitious you are the more willing staff are to accommodate I suppose. I too, would much prefer to get killed IC for trying to overthrow Tektolnes than I would having my character told "No" by staff and that being that. One is an appropriate world response, the other is your rebellion failing because there is simply no world response.

[ShaLeah]

I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.

Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.

I was asked to apply for a role.
What I wanted to do was talked about during the approval process. At length.
My concept and character were approved.
When the time came to move towards that goal everything was denied.


That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

[ShaLeah]

Like I'm not itching for any further confrontation with staff, I'm only sharing the above because I felt that the whole interaction shut down my intended role which had been clearly laid out in advance, which is relevent to the topic at hand

This.

I have a history of [insert whatever staff (collectively or individually) has thought of me here] and there is always some misunderstanding, some communication, some restriction we don't like but I have personally learned that staff are people too. That most of them mean well. There's always at least one who is pretty much less than diplomatic and ends up earning that reputation.  We all know the one.

Staff being people too, they commit mistakes, my retirement was catapulted by a staff mistake. 17 years, survived Sanvean not understanding me (Miss you San!), nessalin hattttted me (I still remember that vivaduan pool like it was yesterday) and plenty others have dropped fucked up notes on mt account.  Like it or not, staff's opinion of you as a player affects your futures, all of them.

Players opinion of staff affects THE GAME.

And let me tell you something... apologies and rectifications go a lonnnnng way.

Admission of wrong doing isn't staff's strongsuit.

[Lizzie]

Outlasting your enemies (perceived or real) is the best revenge.

Any staffer I had a "problem" with (and I use the term loosely since sometimes it was just miscommunication on my part), is gone. And I'm still here.

[boog]

Yeah... I mean, coming from a customer service standpoint though, that's really unacceptable. You don't just wait out bad cashiers, management, or upper management. You end up going to another store.

[ShaLeah]

Let's go back to trying to bringing back veterans and retaining the ones we have.  After all, they are the true keepers of the lore. Veterans ARE the bards.

[Brokkr]

I had to moderate a post due to including information relevant to the poster's current, alive character.

You know better.  Don't do this.

Being upset doesn't make breaking the rules okay.

[Samira]

I played most from 2005-2011, then on and off again afterwards with decreasing regularity. The last time I really played was in 2014.

Like other posters here, I kind of feel that I've outgrown the game. I don't regret the time I've spent playing Arm, but I've done almost everything I've wanted to here and my free time has become more valuable to me.

When I have managed to get myself to log on in recent years, it just doesn't feel like the same game.

With the closure of Tuluk and the removal of the pure magicker guilds, there seems to be far less variety, both in character options and the things to do in world. What has been added to the game, while cool, so far seems like more shades in fewer colors. Allanaki culture isn't quite what I remember, and in fact seems a little weird ... which I suppose can be attributed to the playerbase being consolidated.

Overall, it seems clear that the game is in major decline, though I wouldn't put too much of the blame on anyone. As has been mentioned, MUDs in general are ancient, and it's increasingly difficult to help younger, prospective players understand their appeal. It's also been the same setting since, what, the 90's? Even with two cities it was going to start running out of steam sooner or later.

The GDB doesn't seem to have changed much, though!

[Brokkr]

I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.

Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.

I was asked to apply for a role.
What I wanted to do was talked about during the approval process. At length.
My concept and character were approved.
When the time came to move towards that goal everything was denied.


That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

When we see an application for X, even if the person talks about doing Y with their character...we still assume that the person will do X, with part of their story being trying to do Y.  Not that they will not do or barely do X, so that they can focus on doing Y.

It would be easy to dismiss this as oversimplifying...but this has relevance to the issue with the situation referenced in the moderated post, as well. It is a difficult misunderstanding to have, because it is often based on something that goes beyond the documentation to the level of understanding of the game world, and sometime there is a different view held at that level between the player and staff.

[Armaddict]

It is a difficult misunderstanding to have, because it is often based on something that goes beyond the documentation to the level of understanding of the game world, and sometime there is a different view held at that level between the player and staff.

Pretty much the cause of most discord in the game between staff and players, AND players and players, I think.  This is the actual reason why I stay heavily rooted in code, is because when we're arguing about interpretations...the likelihood of swerving an opinion or how they see things is actually pretty small.

I'm not sure if it's the same way now.  Staff used to make lots of leeway for interpretation on how they regulated, on what they allowed to occur...but almost no leeway on making changes to the game through that different interpretation.  Is that still how you'd describe it?

[Marauder Moe]

So I think I'm seeing some consistent categories of veteran malaise.

Real Life is Hard
Aging players get caught up in families and/or higher demand careers.  Not a lot can be done directly, though might be worth some more thought about roles that can be explicitly more casual but still rewarding.

What's Going On In There?
Not enough information about current events to entice players into returning or help them craft a relevant background.  Updates to the Chronology page would be nice.  Some other system (maybe just on GDB) to help keep players updated about big events might be better.

The World Is Too Static
Players feel powerless to affect lasting changes in the world.  Even minor room updates seem to take an eternity, or even after players put in the work and time and writing may not be implemented at all.

Options I Enjoyed Are No Longer Available
Namely magickers, sorcerers, Tuluk, and some upper ranks.  I understand things come and things go, but there seems to be a prevalent feeling that we've lost more variety than we've added recently.

"Diplomatic Incidents"
Players had a confrontation with staff and it was not resolved in a manner they were happy with.  Staff, my reading of these complaints, and from my own perspective, is that it's not about the actual issue anymore.  Re-litigating the problem here isn't going to motivate anyone to return.  It's a matter of tone and diplomacy.  Let's be honest, there were some widespread struggles with player-staff relations over the last 5 years or so.  From what I can tell, things have gotten a lot better lately.  There's always room for improvement, though.  I know you're volunteers and we're not customers, but a potential boost in veteran player numbers might be worth the effort of some diplomatic outreach and/or a little extra polish on the "customer service" aspect of staffing.

[Delirium]

What's Going On In There?
Not enough information about current events to entice players into returning or help them craft a relevant background.  Updates to the Chronology page would be nice.  Some other system (maybe just on GDB) to help keep players updated about big events might be better.

It seems to me this is the easiest one to fix, and would have the benefit of cluing in and possibly drawing in more new players as well.

[Brokkr]

I can update the Chronology.  We've typically had a level of importance to what we post there, as well as waiting on posting most events, with exceptions for HRPT world events.

Outside of the GMH moving into Luirs and the formation of the Garrison, what do folks rises up to the traditional level of importance in your minds?

[Akaramu]

Don't forget the gypsies, Moe! Even though I'm probably a minority in that regard 

[Marauder Moe]

Don't forget the gypsies, Moe! Even though I'm probably a minority in that regard 

See, I know they got a volcano dropped on their water park (sorry, I had a small part in that...) but I didn't know they were closed entirely now.  Sad indeed.  They were ALWAYS fun to play around.

I can update the Chronology.  We've typically had a level of importance to what we post there, as well as waiting on posting most events, with exceptions for HRPT world events.

Outside of the GMH moving into Luirs and the formation of the Garrison, what do folks rises up to the traditional level of importance in your minds?

Hard to say, personally, what events are worth knowing about since I don't know what events have happened in the last year-ish.  On the GDB I heard about... salt storms?  Ruins of the elementalist's quarter?  Whatever that super-sekrit "do we have permission to ruin your character's life?" announcement was about?

Longer term... is Red Storm East still ruled by giants?

[puella]

I can update the Chronology.  We've typically had a level of importance to what we post there, as well as waiting on posting most events, with exceptions for HRPT world events.

Outside of the GMH moving into Luirs and the formation of the Garrison, what do folks rises up to the traditional level of importance in your minds?

The Allanaki "civil" war from 2015/6(?) and the big black robe fight.

[ShaLeah]

I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.

Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.

I was asked to apply for a role.
What I wanted to do was talked about during the approval process. At length.
My concept and character were approved.
When the time came to move towards that goal everything was denied.


That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

When we see an application for X, even if the person talks about doing Y with their character...we still assume that the person will do X, with part of their story being trying to do Y.  Not that they will not do or barely do X, so that they can focus on doing Y.

It would be easy to dismiss this as oversimplifying...but this has relevance to the issue with the situation referenced in the moderated post, as well. It is a difficult misunderstanding to have, because it is often based on something that goes beyond the documentation to the level of understanding of the game world, and sometime there is a different view held at that level between the player and staff.

You're welcome to read my request #79350 in its entirety. I think we're talking about 2 different things here.  Your response makes it seem like there lacked clarity.

[yousuff]

I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.

Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.

I was asked to apply for a role.
What I wanted to do was talked about during the approval process. At length.
My concept and character were approved.
When the time came to move towards that goal everything was denied.


That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

When we see an application for X, even if the person talks about doing Y with their character...we still assume that the person will do X, with part of their story being trying to do Y.  Not that they will not do or barely do X, so that they can focus on doing Y.

It would be easy to dismiss this as oversimplifying...but this has relevance to the issue with the situation referenced in the moderated post, as well. It is a difficult misunderstanding to have, because it is often based on something that goes beyond the documentation to the level of understanding of the game world, and sometime there is a different view held at that level between the player and staff.

You're welcome to read my request #79350 in its entirety. I think we're talking about 2 different things here.  Your response makes it seem like there lacked clarity.

It's more of a reference to my moderated post I think. While I appreciate the slightly more explanative response here I do wish staff would carry the same tone they do in private requests they do in public responses, which is far more pleasant as opposed to the threats of storage and the less than thinly veiled reference to a ban I recieved 5 years ago and its implications.

I do want to clarify I've had pleasant interactions since though and I want to maintain that rapport, but I do want to voice my concern about how quickly they leaped to storage and threats.

[Brokkr]

You're welcome to read my request #79350 in its entirety. I think we're talking about 2 different things here.  Your response makes it seem like there lacked clarity.

Quite familiar with it.  Your first sentence is literally the Y. The role the app was for, the X.

[boog]

I think staff need to very clearly state, so there is no mistake, the things that can and can not be pursued if there is no possibility of Y ever happening. Otherwise, it is a sort of deception that ruins player morale and desire to play their role where they are required to do X.

[ShaLeah]

You're welcome to read my request #79350 in its entirety. I think we're talking about 2 different things here.  Your response makes it seem like there lacked clarity.

Quite familiar with it.  Your first sentence is literally the Y. The role the app was for, the X.

Was it? We'll have to disagree then. The role call was for X.  I specifically said I'm applying for X with Y in mind and we settled on Z we both agreed on and it was after that agreement that I applied.  That Z was denied when I approached it and even after that disappointment I was STILL attempting to compromise.

Staff in charge not only asked me to apply for that and the previous b role call but knew what I wanted to do.

If this teaches us anything it's that role calls would benefit from a lot more detail [like a shit load more than come be a byn sarge arrr salarrrrrr] so that everyone is on the same page. I've played a couple of sponsored roles, this one has caused me to swear them off forever.  I would rather play independents (gag) that are thwarted from the get than to be privy to the power an existing entity has from that character out.

All that would have been avoided had I not been told it was okay.  Had the just been honesty and expectations laid out.

[crymerci]

Re: changing the world

Everyone wants to change the world, but no one thinks about the result - everyone else can change the world too. If there was no limit on staff support for changing the world (or being able to do it without staff support) it doesn't take much imagination to see that while it would create lots of opportunity for conflict, that conflict would quickly degrade the game world. The changes most people point to, as wanting to be able to do that again, involve either destroying 'enemy' property or creating independent strongholds.

OK, so your crew of Kadians sabotaged the Salarri compound. Now Salarr retaliates by poisoning Kadius's water supply. Now Kadius and Salarr can continue harming each other, or try to repair their own damage, but it takes longer to build/fix things than to destroy them.

You have a huge group of raiders and decide it's big enough to create a wilderness stronghold - fine, but can you build and defend it better than the rest of the playerbase can destroy it? Can you maintain a supply line for the decade it will take to make it self-sufficient? Or will your base be overtaken as soon as the right person hears a rumor it exists?

The first scenario involves probably about 40 hours of staff work and provides maybe the same number of hours of player enjoyment of the plot. The second scenario requires perhaps the same amount of building work for something that (if you really want the world changeable) could be destroyed the next week. And then additional staff monitoring to see if your group really keeps up their work for, basically, the rest of the stronghold's lifetime. Leader dies and no one else logs in/visits the camp for a week or two? -sorry, that stronghold is a gith camp now, and they thank you for your hard work. Then you can go to the GDB and complain about how staff are more supportive of other people's changes than yours, and leave the staffer who donated a week's labor feeling pretty unappreciated.

[Delirium]

it takes longer to build/fix things than to destroy them.

This is the crux right here.

Destruction is easier, creation is harder. Taking things away is easier, building things is harder. PK is easier, engaging in long-term plots is challenging. Ultimately though, creating things (even if temporary, or intended to be changed over time) is far more rewarding as well.

Too much destruction and no creation leads to disenchanted and frustrated players.