Closed cloak + mask + raised hood = hidden mdesc

[Brokkr]

My first thought:

With all the concern around stealth with the class changes, why do folks want this, which would obviously result in stealth getting a huge nerf?

My second thought:

Something like this may make sense, but only in the context of a complete redo of stealth.  Where instead of being independent systems they are integrated, such that hoods/masks/cloaks contributed to your stealth level, and stealth shifted to multiple components.  So one component might be not being detected, and another might be not being recognized.  I am not sure what form this would take, and we aren't looking at redoing stealth right now, but it would be an interesting, if potentially complicated, direction for stealth to go in.

[Armaddict]

With all the concern around stealth with the class changes, why do folks want this, which would obviously result in stealth getting a huge nerf?

I don't follow.  How is the ability to make oneself less recognizable a nerf to stealth?

[Heade]

Case in point.  Even with reasonable coverage, we're going to have people who insist that they can identify everyone by their eyes.

Right...out of hundreds of thousands of PCs/NPCs/vNPCs. People like to forget about how populated the world is in situations like these.

@Lizzie ; Bear in mind, we're not talking about a walmart hoodie like this:
We're talking a cloak, like this:

It makes a big difference in how people percieve hoods.

[roughneck]

Eh, you'd still be able to see enough of the second guy's face most of the time. Unless he's always bowing his head and staring at the ground.

I'd like a mundane identify skill for perceptive types that allows you to see an sdesc through hoods/masks/facewraps/veils/whatever.

[sleepyhead]

IMO there's already enough verbatem sdesc-repeating as it is.

[Heade]

Eh, you'd still be able to see enough of the second guy's face most of the time. Unless he's always bowing his head and staring at the ground.

The second guy is looking directly at the camera in that picture. If you're deliberately attempting to keep your face covered with such a hood, it's not difficult. Also, remember that we're dealing with a time period in which artificial light doesn't exist, so even in the daytime indoors, things are very shadowy. And at night, you're basically seeing by candlelight/torchlight, which is sketchy making out details even WITHOUT a hood.

[Lizzie]

Eh, you'd still be able to see enough of the second guy's face most of the time. Unless he's always bowing his head and staring at the ground.

The second guy is looking directly at the camera in that picture. If you're deliberately attempting to keep your face covered with such a hood, it's not difficult. Also, remember that we're dealing with a time period in which artificial light doesn't exist, so even in the daytime indoors, things are very shadowy. And at night, you're basically seeing by candlelight/torchlight, which is sketchy making out details even WITHOUT a hood.

I can tell, with that hood up, that he has a dimpled chin, pale skin, full bowed lips, a narrow face, and his nose seems to be fairly prominent, but not misshapen.

In addition, anyone wearing their hood up INDOORS should be suspect, by virtue of the fact that they're intentionally obscuring their faces indoors, where there's no "elements" they need to protect themselves from.

Outside buildings, there are TWO moons to provide light by night and day, with the third moon providing nothing. There's a desert sun with very little foliage (at least south of the span) to shadow their features or otherwise protect them from direct, blaring, incredibly bright sunlight. So it's not likely that a hood would obscure any part of their face, unless as someone said - they kept their heads bowed and were staring at the ground.

[Brokkr]

With all the concern around stealth with the class changes, why do folks want this, which would obviously result in stealth getting a huge nerf?

I don't follow.  How is the ability to make oneself less recognizable a nerf to stealth?

You won't follow if you think of it that way.  Let's rephrase!

How does the ability to make oneself less recognizable an increase to stealth (which would then allow a nerf to the actual stealth skill)?

Suddenly, that occasional glance opportunity that currently is potentially character killing can be dealt with.  Which means completely getting rid of not detectable, ghost level stealth is viable.  Because brief lapses in stealth can be dealt with.  Which means we can change stealth so that no one gets to that level of stealth.

[MeTekillot]

How is covering your face stealth? WHat are you talking about dude. I want to be a mugger who can crack someone in the head without being dimed throughout a city of almost a million people because anybody who gets their text stolen REMEMBERS every single aspect of my face when, reasonably, they should be dodging half a dozen muggers every night, and maybe one or two during the day. Why does having that require nerfing the rest of stealth?

[Lizzie]

How is covering your face stealth? WHat are you talking about dude. I want to be a mugger who can crack someone in the head without being dimed throughout a city of almost a million people because anybody who gets their text stolen REMEMBERS every single aspect of my face when, reasonably, they should be dodging half a dozen muggers every night, and maybe one or two during the day. Why does having that require nerfing the rest of stealth?

Good question, but here's the question right back at you:

Why are you stealing a PC's text, when there are almost a million other potential victims that you have a better chance at robbing without getting caught?

My answer: because code.

Your answer: ?

[MeTekillot]

Because I play this game to interact with other players and if I can victimize a player instead of victimizing an NPC I'm gonna. If the code can help other players behave realistically when their butts are hurt over their loss of their text fanciness then let's make it do so.

[Delirium]

Please try not to paint all other players as somehow stupid or petty because you don't like/see their roleplay.

Sometimes it's an over-reaction due to not taking the virtual world into account. Sometimes it isn't.

Also, chillax.

[Heade]

With all the concern around stealth with the class changes, why do folks want this, which would obviously result in stealth getting a huge nerf?

I don't follow.  How is the ability to make oneself less recognizable a nerf to stealth?

You won't follow if you think of it that way.  Let's rephrase!

How does the ability to make oneself less recognizable an increase to stealth (which would then allow a nerf to the actual stealth skill)?

Suddenly, that occasional glance opportunity that currently is potentially character killing can be dealt with.  Which means completely getting rid of not detectable, ghost level stealth is viable.  Because brief lapses in stealth can be dealt with.  Which means we can change stealth so that no one gets to that level of stealth.

Yeah, I don't really get why this idea immediately leads to the idea of nerfing stealth. Lots of people without stealth could use the system I described above. Nerfing stealth seems unnecessary for this, and if you read about the hood removal part that I've mentioned several times, that would still make stealth characters potentially threatened by those brief glances, because someone could immediately pull down their hood and get a look at them. It would just forced that thief to recognize that someone has now got a good look at them, and they can either risk it and run, or try their luck with eliminating a witness.

[Armaddict]

While I agree that I see no reason that this immediately necessitates a nerf to stealth rather than allowing for a scenery in which case everyone is not just immediately recognizable all the time...

I'm also curious about what exactly you mean by nerf to stealth.  If you're talking about just a lazy, misguided reduction of stealth skills across the board to make less people try to use it to accomplish anything, then I'd pretty much wrinkle my nose and say figures.  That's not a boon to the game in any form to remove or disable toolboxes for accomplishing goals or facilitating conflict.

But if you're talking about an actual stealth overhaul that makes it act in cooler, more dynamic ways than an invisibility cloak with a short delay and a passive scanning state to try and see them...I'd say that adding this idea and getting on that might actually be something good to prioritize.

[Brokkr]

I dunno man.  Guy is stealth'd.  You only see him with your scan a small percentage of the time.  Mask'd on top of that.  Targetting commands (if there was an un-mask one) only go through the stealth same % that you can see that person.

Not sure how that is not a pretty big buff to stealth.

[Armaddict]

I dunno man.  Guy is stealth'd.  You only see him with your scan a small percentage of the time.  Mask'd on top of that.  Targetting commands (if there was an un-mask one) only go through the stealth same % that you can see that person.

Not sure how that is not a pretty big buff to stealth.

...that's a pretty big buff for everyone.  Right now absolute stealth is the only means of coming close to the desired effect in the first place.  Tying them together by necessity in light of your feelings on stealth is why you feel that way, but it impacts the riders in the waste just as much.

The only people who it doesn't uh...'buff'...is tavern/social folk, but I don't see why they get all the benefit out of the introduction of what is and isn't possible for players to do.

[James de Monet]

I work in a clean room sometimes.  Other people in there, with a single glance at me (an uncommon visitor), despite the fact that they can only see my eyes, can instantly recognize me.  It's uncanny.  I'm not saying most people or could recognize a stranger from just their eyes, I'm just saying it's possible.  When you have no s/mdesc, it isn't.

Also, if you've ever eyerolled at the 'disappear while talking to you' hide exploit, you have no idea how annoyed you need to prepare to be if we reintroduce true masks back into that equation.  It was everyone-in-the-bar-watching-you-commit-clumsy-crimes-and-no-one-can-do-a-thing ridiculous.

[Armaddict]

I work in a clean room sometimes.  Other people in there, with a single glance at me (an uncommon visitor), despite the fact that they can only see my eyes, can instantly recognize me.  It's uncanny.  I'm not saying most people or could recognize a stranger from just their eyes, I'm just saying it's possible.  When you have no s/mdesc, it isn't.

That's probably because they have a list of people who it could possibly be to choose from.  If you wandered out into the street in the same get-up, did something, then wandered back the next day, how many people would recognize you as dude who did something?

Also, if you've ever eyerolled at the 'disappear while talking to you' hide exploit, you have no idea how annoyed you need to prepare to be if we reintroduce true masks back into that equation.  It was everyone-in-the-bar-watching-you-commit-clumsy-crimes-and-no-one-can-do-a-thing ridiculous.

Having been there during the era of masks, I'm pretty sure you're just making this up.  Crimcode was still in effect, and masks were so rare that people were actively trying to hold onto them at all costs.  But you did see them in high profile cases where recognition=death, or where you knew you needed to be able to be seen in the process...such as an interrogation.

There's no reason that anonymity, that an alternative appearance, should be completely beyond reach.  There is also no reason that anyone is obligated to know exactly who is doing what at any given point.

[Bogre]

How does the ability to make oneself less recognizable an increase to stealth (which would then allow a nerf to the actual stealth skill)?

Suddenly, that occasional glance opportunity that currently is potentially character killing can be dealt with.  Which means completely getting rid of not detectable, ghost level stealth is viable.  Because brief lapses in stealth can be dealt with.  Which means we can change stealth so that no one gets to that level of stealth.

I think they're two different things. The stealth skill allows you to go unnoticed. It isn't a disguise skill, though, because anyone who can notice you can see your desc. All of it. Disguises (masks, hoods, facewraps) allow you to go -unrecognized-, which is different. A set of shock troops wearing Tor Scorpion facemasks are unrecognizeable, but definitely very obviously noticeable. And I think both are worthwhile.

The ability to be disguised is not the same thing as the ability to be unnoticed. Yes, stealthy players could do both, but that doesn't mean that you'd have to nerf the stealth skill just because people can wear masks.

There's a lot of RP opportunities that are missing because of the inability to go unrecognized. The only time you can reliably subvert a character/player's knowledge of who you are is if they 1)don't know who you are already and 2) didn't copy/paste/save your desc from some time ago. The character-killing ability of anyone who can get a 'l figure' off to report to the authorities almost annihilates the ability to be a repeat criminal offender who doesn't murder their targets.   

I'll give an example from another mud which allowed face coverings, (also an ability to 'study' people and find things out about their sdesc/desc). I had a character who was the leader of a revolutionary group go into hiding after his clan's compound got demolished. The other clan members were similarly incognito. He wore a facemask as part of the new identity to prevent him from being easily tied to his past affiliations. (The event was a high # pwipe, so it was helped in part by a slew of incoming new characters). It was tough to keep up the masquerade, but I was able to do it. Finally, he was outed because someone recognized his mask and tied him to a fight that he mysteriously showed up to rescue someone at. He then had weapons drawn, pointed at his face and a big bad PC trying to kill him...til he pulled off his mask, gestured, and the rest of the incognito/masked and unknown folk in the group revealed themselves, joined his fight, and fought off the rest. And thus the clan re-emerged from the rubble.


----

I think that it's not a game-breaking adjunct, and allows for a lot more unique scenarios. Being able to hide mdescs allows for a number of things to be conducted and allow another character/player to keep on playing, without resorting to spells, PK, keeping hide/sneak flags on unrealistically, to artificially keep the knowledge locked down. And yes, you would hope players can RP not knowing every little thing about someone's mdesc, but that also requires a bit of immersion-breaking for them, too. The game itself is much more compelling that way, I think.

There's also ways to mitigate the aspect. One, allow peek or watch, or something else to allow you to snag the sdesc, or parts of the mdesc. There could also be a toggle of descriptor information that you could set at char-gen or through a 'addkeyword' kind of functionality that could be returned to someone trying to uncover someone's identity.

So the dark-haired, aureate-eyed man could list for eyes: Aureate golden yellow sallow burnished hooded and for hair: midnight dark black long bone-braided. And then whatever look (or if its tied to a skill) could give a random return of those descriptors.
You look at the male wearing the obsidian, featureless mask.
The male with the obsidian, featureless mask has %yellow% eyes, and %midnight% hair.

-> Now you can have the AoD looking for that raider with yellow eyes, and have it be a not-one-shot homing missile description.

[Nao]

I work in a clean room sometimes.  Other people in there, with a single glance at me (an uncommon visitor), despite the fact that they can only see my eyes, can instantly recognize me.  It's uncanny.  I'm not saying most people or could recognize a stranger from just their eyes, I'm just saying it's possible.  When you have no s/mdesc, it isn't.

This. There is a lot more to recognizing someone than just their face, especially if they are not a stranger. If I have seen you every day, I'm going to recognize you by your posture, shape, your voice and/or the way you move within a few minutes, at most.

Anything obscuring your description completely makes it possible for your buddy of ten years to sit next to you in the Gaj for days with no way whatsoever to recognize them. This is just as unrealistic as the current situation.

Edit: I'm not saying we can't hide main descriptions, but if we do? Let's take this into account if we do and add some sort of countermeasure or ability to recognize the masked character.

[Heade]

This. There is a lot more to recognizing someone than just their face, especially if they are not a stranger. If I have seen you every day, I'm going to recognize you by your posture, shape, your voice and/or the way you move within a few minutes, at most.

Not necessarily. I was a member of a LARP group that has played together for 15-20 years, but it's a fairly large group. One of the guys played a character where he wore a costume, and played with a hollowed out teddy bear on his head with two small eye holes poked in it. He played his character in an assumed voice. None of the other players knew who the player of this character was for a month, over 4 separate, multiple-hour playing sessions.

[Nao]

This. There is a lot more to recognizing someone than just their face, especially if they are not a stranger. If I have seen you every day, I'm going to recognize you by your posture, shape, your voice and/or the way you move within a few minutes, at most.

Not necessarily. I was a member of a LARP group that has played together for 15-20 years, but it's a fairly large group. One of the guys played a character where he wore a costume, and played with a hollowed out teddy bear on his head with two small eye holes poked in it. He played his character in an assumed voice. None of the other players knew who the player of this character was for a month, over 4 separate, multiple-hour playing sessions.

Added some emphasis.

[Heade]

This. There is a lot more to recognizing someone than just their face, especially if they are not a stranger. If I have seen you every day, I'm going to recognize you by your posture, shape, your voice and/or the way you move within a few minutes, at most.

Not necessarily. I was a member of a LARP group that has played together for 15-20 years, but it's a fairly large group. One of the guys played a character where he wore a costume, and played with a hollowed out teddy bear on his head with two small eye holes poked in it. He played his character in an assumed voice. None of the other players knew who the player of this character was for a month, over 4 separate, multiple-hour playing sessions.

Added some emphasis.

That doesn't change anything. Did you miss the part about us all knowing the guy for 15 years? We all hang out together. Groups like that tend to be close-knit. Yet he was able to fool us all by concealing his identity. A couple people knew it was him, only because they were running the game and he rode with them, but not because anyone was able to tell by the way he spoke/moved/acted.

[Vex]

There's a lot of RP opportunities that are missing because of the inability to go unrecognized. The only time you can reliably subvert a character/player's knowledge of who you are is if they 1)don't know who you are already and 2) didn't copy/paste/save your desc from some time ago. The character-killing ability of anyone who can get a 'l figure' off to report to the authorities almost annihilates the ability to be a repeat criminal offender who doesn't murder their targets.   

No matter what is done, I feel this is the most important part.

[Cind]

I like the suggested disguise skill. Perhaps for four hours or 1 RL day, you could look like someone else. If you were an elf, you'd still look like an elf, but you could look like a woman or a black-haired elf instead, until the hair dye begins to run or the fruit falls out of your boobs like in Mulan.