Public Discussion of New Classes

[Armaddict]

What I find funny is the reason Miscreant still has backstab is that I figured everyone would scream outrage if I put forward classes where no one with backstab got master level sneak skills.

We are ever unpredictable!

No, once again, I'm not trying to sound attacking here.  But I have concerns about how the 'jack of all trades' for each theme also seems to become the de-facto master of certain things through that versatility, when tradition says they should be a step behind.  In other words, I think in practice, miscreant will outperform the infiltrator in terms of winning combat, and outperform the pilferer in subsisting through avoidance of combat.

That and stronger theming in the heavy combat slot.  I admit my light-combat critiques above in the criminal tree are highly suspect and could be changed to stray away from the stealth aspect, but that is generally what I think of when I think of combative criminal that isn't a brute.

And for the record, I had the same idea as far as stealth.  Where the magical invisibility button has long been a concern, I thought having more people depend on the skill at advanced instead of a bunch of masters running around was a good solution.  I did, however, view the light-combat and light mercantile rows as the 'perfected' stealth tiers where it remained more reliable save against the most observant.

[Armaddict]

Likewise, in the wilderness tree, I'd find a way to emphasize the scout as strongly themed aggression via wilderness skills while the adventurer was strongly themed subsistence without combat.

The heavy combat tier, I view as combat themed with variance in specialization, basically.

And general being the most skillful and perceptive, but least utility-based.

[Vox]

+1 everything X-D wrote

Re: Brokkr, I will certainly do my part to utilize the lethality of the new classes in new and creative ways. But it feels punishing to the assassin archetype to spread their abilities over other classes with the purposed intent of separating high master backstab from high master sneak/hide. Enforcer trying to sneak and hide with low advanced stealth is suicidal..

Will all the NPC’s in game be changed to the various new classes? Will this mean NPC guards may not have scan and even if they do it may not be very high?

[Speciation]

Bash is nearly impossible to raise much higher than journeyman or maybe advanced. I've never even heard of someone mastering it. It increases very slowly, and for some races, you'll have an incredibly hard time failing once it's around journeyman.

Bash isn't too difficult to raise unless on a half-giant. It can be mastered before a weapon skill even reaches advanced.

Kick is another one of those skills that just don't go up properly. You can be a 10+ day warrior and still have apprentice kick even though you use it regularly. Furthermore, this is a guild designed heavily for mounted combat where you can't kick at all.

I agree with kick being difficult to raise because you can branch weapons on warriors before mastering kick.

[Cabooze]

the 'soldier' class isn't a true soldier, being that they can't scan. They are immediately circumvented, as a role, by every sneaky class. Sure, they might have listen, but that's useless on its own short of listening in on people and other small coded benefits against sneaky stuff.

[Brokkr]

AoD PCs aren't true soldiers.

[mansa]

I think we are mixing up skill trees with character jobs.

[CodeMaster]

AoD PCs aren't true soldiers.

IMO laborer looks perfect for the AoD patrol types.

[Insigne]

Speaking of laborers, I noticed they branch hack but it doesn't seem very feasible for southerners:

lumberjacking -> axe making -> hack

In line with the documentation for the southern fighting style, would it be possible for laborers to branch hack OR riposte depending on their starting location? I was thinking they could branch similarly to hack:

fletchery -> swordmaking -> riposte

[Brytta Léofa]

Not sure who created that Google Docs spreadsheet (I found the link in Discord and then lost it again), but I made an ugly Python script to dump all the skills into a .csv. Could be adapted to output in the schema of that spreadsheet pretty easily.

[perfecto]

The more I read Brokkr's responses to all this "rabble rabble rabble" the more I think he knows exactly what he's talking about.

IMO, the best way to figure out what works and what doesn't is going to be through play.

It's hard to tell how well classes will/won't work until (multiple) players have had the chance to test them out.

This too is going to be a major factor on the game, you all know it!

I'm not yaying or naying anything, just saying, knowhati'msayin'?

Also I think my idea about the custom crafting earlier in this thread was a decent idea    0-karma folks shouldn't be working on mastercrafts, they should be figuring out the game! and then mastercraf... (cough cough) custom crafting.. when they have points to spend. 

Can't wait to see everyone's input in a year from now, when we're allowed to talk about it.   

[Vox]

Soooo, you want to remake assassin.  Sorry. 

I find myself coming back to this and wondering what the thinking is behind tearing apart assassin?

[Nao]

I thought miscreant got everything assassins got - what am I missing?

[Vox]

I thought miscreant got everything assassins got - what am I missing?

Miscreant currently has the most rogue appeal and the most assassin cross-over, but backstab and sap at levels far lower than an assassin would need to be reliable methods of attack. (honestly, Miscreant looks like a ton of out of the box rogue fun though)

Enforcer has assassin quality backstab and sap but without the stealth component to make them reliable methods of surprise attack. (assuming you can get both piercing and bludgeoning up past advanced to even branch them) But so far as brutal thug goes, Enforcer looks epic (save for a baffling lack of scan/listen.)

I mean, if you're feeling randy just give Miscreant high backstab/sap and you have the perfect rogue class. Individual playstyles will then determine how assassiny/pickpockety/burglary a character actually ends up being but they'd have the potential to master it all in time if they really wanted and that was their concept.

I'm just mourning the death of Assassin as an archetype here, I'm gonna need some time to process.

[Brokkr]

Speaking of laborers, I noticed they branch hack but it doesn't seem very feasible for southerners:

lumberjacking -> axe making -> hack

In line with the documentation for the southern fighting style, would it be possible for laborers to branch hack OR riposte depending on their starting location? I was thinking they could branch similarly to hack:

fletchery -> swordmaking -> riposte

I agree that would be cool if we could do it, but the way our skills code works we can't currently support something like that.  I'm not a coder, but I suspect it would take a major rewrite of how skills work in order to enable something like this, based on my understanding of how skills do work.

Or a major effort in creating a mechanism for class specific skill trees per starting location.

[Brokkr]

Soooo, you want to remake assassin.  Sorry. 

I find myself coming back to this and wondering what the thinking is behind tearing apart assassin?

Apologies, that probably came off with the wrong tone.  The current assassin didn't fit into the design dynamic of the new classes.  Unfortunately, the pain points of the assassin guild were the same things that kept it somewhat balanced.  In addressing pain points and looking to create a dynamic for the future where it doesn't take as much time investment to get a class up and running*, where there are different flavors that can encompass a variety of RP roles and where there are intentional gaps or weaknesses to each class, the assassin class didn't fit.

*Of course it is going to take Enforcers a while to get backstab and sap without a subguild.  Realize some folks like that achievement grind, just like with advanced weapons currently.  So it was a bone in that direction along with a balance thing.  An enforcer with either backstab or sap (again, discounting subguilds) will be more likely than one with both.

[Brokkr]

Miscreant currently has the most rogue appeal and the most assassin cross-over, but backstab and sap at levels far lower than an assassin would need to be reliable methods of attack. (honestly, Miscreant looks like a ton of out of the box rogue fun though)

Harder to OHK and thus needing to rely on something else is an intentional weakness for the Miscreant.

Enforcer has assassin quality backstab and sap but without the stealth component to make them reliable methods of surprise attack. (assuming you can get both piercing and bludgeoning up past advanced to even branch them) But so far as brutal thug goes, Enforcer looks epic (save for a baffling lack of scan/listen.)

The lack of scan/listen is an intentional weakness.  As are lack of brew/poison.  The idea was killers, probably of opportunity or planning, not folks with the skills to hunt down/detect and kill folks.^{(without a subguild at least)}

I mean, if you're feeling randy just give Miscreant high backstab/sap and you have the perfect rogue class. Individual playstyles will then determine how assassiny/pickpockety/burglary a character actually ends up being but they'd have the potential to master it all in time if they really wanted and that was their concept.

Miscreant as is is pretty close to that Overpowered line as is.  Close enough I'm not sure which side it falls on.

I'm just mourning the death of Assassin as an archetype here, I'm gonna need some time to process.

R.I.P. Assassins, we never really knew you.*

Mostly because our vision just went black and then we saw the mantis head.

[Insigne]

Speaking of laborers, I noticed they branch hack but it doesn't seem very feasible for southerners:

lumberjacking -> axe making -> hack

In line with the documentation for the southern fighting style, would it be possible for laborers to branch hack OR riposte depending on their starting location? I was thinking they could branch similarly to hack:

fletchery -> swordmaking -> riposte

I agree that would be cool if we could do it, but the way our skills code works we can't currently support something like that.  I'm not a coder, but I suspect it would take a major rewrite of how skills work in order to enable something like this, based on my understanding of how skills do work.

Or a major effort in creating a mechanism for class specific skill trees per starting location.

Aw! I understand. Thank you, anyway, for taking the time to explain why a tiny detail like this isn't currently possible.

[hyzhenhok]

Miscreant is definitely OP. I'd say you almost get there just by giving them the entire burglar/pickpocket kits without requiring branching at all. As a player of several pickpockets, I'm surprised there wasn't any fear of having character who can get Master Steal + Master Sleight of Hand online much faster than current Pickpockets (absent subguilds).

Anyway, Enforcer/Infiltrator/Miscreant each only have a few holes in their kits compared to the Assassin, so unless subguilds are totally  nerfed into the ground you'll still be able to make an Assassin-like character, probably a *superior* Assassin-like character. You'll just have to invest a bit more into getting it. Good design IMO.

[Krath]

This is a serious question:

Will you be bringing Trap back? PLEASE!

[infinitehope]

Miscreant is definitely OP. I'd say you almost get there just by giving them the entire burglar/pickpocket kits without requiring branching at all. As a player of several pickpockets, I'm surprised there wasn't any fear of having character who can get Master Steal + Master Sleight of Hand online much faster than current Pickpockets (absent subguilds).

Anyway, Enforcer/Infiltrator/Miscreant each only have a few holes in their kits compared to the Assassin, so unless subguilds are totally  nerfed into the ground you'll still be able to make an Assassin-like character, probably a *superior* Assassin-like character. You'll just have to invest a bit more into getting it. Good design IMO.

I don't think Miscreant is OP to the point it needs nerfing, is it strong? Hell yeah, within its scope of the game/world . A miscreant immediatly becomes much less powerful when you put them outside, in the wilderness, unless they took a subguild to give them some of that versatility.

And with how ride works for the new classes, it'll add even another level of difficulty for non-wilderness specialized characters, when it comes to wielding weapons while riding. (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53544.0.html new ride described here)

Lets not forget that while miscreant gets 'advanced' in their weapon skills, its definetly not as good as infiltrators. A dedicated assassin that doesn't bother with thievery, but doesn't abandon subterfuge and stealth would be a perfect infiltrator. To me, infiltrators are like, the zalanthan version of a ninja, with a versatile skillset based around killing in a variety of ways. Another thing to note, a more combat focused class will start with stronger skills in their combat focus, where as a mixed class will probably be more diversified. A mixed class probably has a bigger 'grind' ahead of them over all. (lets not talk about combat grind. Its a long road no matter how you put it it)

Enforcers are ultraviolence with an oppourtunistic approach to it, while still having some more subtle skills, they rely on sheer force of power and skill in combat.

My very first character was a pickpocket, and I had been pushing for the combination of burglar and pickpocket since my first year on armageddon, I'm happy to see it become a thing. Is it overpowered? I agree with brokkr that its on the edge, but at the same time, the other 'mixed' classes, to me, are nearing it as well.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Perhaps the answer to the backstab dilemma is to add a new skill for roguish combat. Like circle or some kind of critical hit chance.

[lostinspace]

Perhaps the answer to the backstab dilemma is to add a new skill for roguish combat. Like circle or some kind of critical hit chance.

POCKET SAND! SHASHASHA

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Can't really tell if you are joking, but things like that are exactly what I had in mind. dirt kick, quick dagger thrust to the neck, smoke for a quick escape, I think it would add a lot to combat, but certainly would separate the roguish types from the fighter types.

[lostinspace]

Not at all, a skill that blinds your opponent for a little bit would be great for rogues.