IDEA: Upgrading the Brawl Code

[ShaLeah]

First get rid of that asking politely to fight kankshit and subsequent if you keep being mean you're gonna be considered a criminal.

You should be able to hit someone without permission, the idea that any soldiers anywhere on Zalanthas  would care that someone is being harassed or beaten is kinda ludicrous. You get whacked anywhere you gotta make a choice, hit back, pay someone else to hit back or walk away and plot your revenge. To me fighting should be pretty normal.

That said!

I think it'd be a great addition to the game to be able to brawl anywhere without the criminal code kicking in.

Bear with me. There are places in the world where the all-seeing eyes of the law are blind, leave those be. However!
Contingent upon the code turning you into a criminal if the victim in the fight gets down below a certain % of hit points - for argument's sake say between 75 and 85% of their hps gone - why wouldn't the soldiers ignore an on going fight?

You're minding your business at the Welen's Fineries when in comes your fuck buddy's mate and grabs you by the hair. A brawl ensues! The shopkeeper ways a soldier. They let you fight it out, except the mate is realllllly kicking your ass, your pride keeps you there cause fuck them, you're not gonna let the main bitch beat you! At some point the soldier will intervene because it'll be clear that the attacker is NOT going to stop and now that fight is a crime and the attacker is arrested and drug off to jail.

I've thought about the twinking that might ensue -  a player won't know when the person they're attacking is going to fall between that range and maybe the code gods can make it a variable rate so that it's never exactly the same % that kicks the code in so you're taking a chance at drawing a soldier's attention.


I can see people using this soooo much more often than kill.

Thoughts?

[Large Hero]

First get rid of that asking politely to fight kankshit and subsequent if you keep being mean you're gonna be considered a criminal.

You should be able to hit someone without permission, the idea that any soldiers anywhere on Zalanthas  would care that someone is being harassed or beaten is kinda ludicrous. You get whacked anywhere you gotta make a choice, hit back, pay someone else to hit back or walk away and plot your revenge. To me fighting should be pretty normal.

Truth. This not only makes sense from a realism perspective (would the soldiers really care about one filthy commoner punching another?), but it sounds like it would be more fun, too.

This sounds like a promising way to make Allanak more dangerous and to allow more opportunities for criminals. It can be refined, of course, but it's a good idea.

I like that it creates a threat. The person beating you up might just run off after giving you a few punches...or they might pull out a weapon to finish you off (with existing crimcode interaction).

If you've got a problem with other characters beating you up frequently, and the crimcode doesn't care, that's a problem you've got to solve on the PC level, instead of the NPC level. That's a good thing.

Some people will read this and think, or even post, along the lines of "a change like this would make me not leave my clan compound ever." For those players, who are probably more of a "social type", a change like this would mean more chances to use your character's social influence. Convince a fighty character to guard you, convince a Templar to kill those who threaten you, etc.

[Insigne]

+1

I can get behind making brawl code a possibility on the streets - as long as there are limitations based on social standing, obviously! Picking a fight with a noble doesn't strike me as something most people would turn a blind eye to.

[ShaLeah]

+1

I can get behind making brawl code a possibility on the streets - as long as there are limitations based on social standing, obviously! Picking a fight with a noble doesn't strike me as something most people would turn a blind eye to.

I would think the brawl code already has any noble/templar being hit to be an automatic crim code, no?

#codegenius

[Riev]

There have been times in recent past that I have, as a Guilder, wanted to be paid to hurt someone. Send a message. Show them they're "vulnerable". I think at one point I was going to break someone's leg (and had someone else do it, but still).

It led to some pretty decent plot hooks that didn't really get explored, but it was kinda nice. I think it might also have an added benefit of hiring a Byn Trooper to walk you to the Gaj for the day, because someone has been hiring 'rinthis to mess with you. Or maybe YOU hire the Trooper to go whole-hog punch someone in the face on their daily commute.

[cnemus]

I really love this idea.

Brawl everywhere = good. Exclude shops or places paid up for militia involvement = okay. It makes sense to me you can't pick a fight in a Nenyuk rented space with an NPC that has paid the militia/templarate/[others] for protection.

This may be a big ask, but I think it would be amazing.

Despite my absolute support, I do have a counterpoint. From a certain perspective it makes sense that the ultra-rigid and severe city-state has this absolute ban on assault of any degree due to the fear of mobs and uprising.

[Insigne]

Brawl everywhere = good. Exclude shops or places paid up for militia involvement = okay. It makes sense to me you can't pick a fight in a Nenyuk rented space with an NPC that has paid the militia/templarate/[others] for protection.

+1!

+1

I can get behind making brawl code a possibility on the streets - as long as there are limitations based on social standing, obviously! Picking a fight with a noble doesn't strike me as something most people would turn a blind eye to.

I would think the brawl code already has any noble/templar being hit to be an automatic crim code, no?

#codegenius

That makes sense, though I've never actually tried!

[Chettaman]

I want to start with, I've always wanted brawl everywhere.
Where the eff were y'all when I offered up the brawl anywhere code idea before, huh?! It's because Shal's pretty, right?
Damn. I'm always the side-ho.

Anyway.
So I like Shal's idea with the people don't notice until a percentage is reached, but I'm a perfectionist (sometimes) and I'll offer more ideas.
- As some may know, the brawl code doesn't usually do much HP damage. Unless the person doing the hitting is skilled in the fighting or is a half-giant. So 85% - 95% is a good place to set a limit. I'd suggest going the extra mile and just make it 85% - 99%. Just because I imagine soldiers (as corrupt as they may be) aren't all the same terrorist. Some might even get involved just to extort everyone involved instead of directly helping. I'm just saying it's possible that a soldier or even a commoner may want to get involved.
-- so if you use the brawl code on someone there could be a roll to determine if someone cares enough to do something about it. If you're willing to brawl in the streets where nobility must unfortunately pass then you're willing to get in trouble. Maybe like a 10% chance... that increases depending on the percentage of health missing from the brawl code victim. Or ha - decreases or increases depending on race of the victim and brawler.
I'll also clarify that anyone "caught" as a result of such a code is taken to jail (unless a brawl went too far)

Maybe even instead of immediate jail action, a guard vnpc could appear and offer both parties a chance to look the other way (and give up a ''donation'') - or even have other randomized actions towards those involved. Maybe this sort of thing could happen in taverns too. (with decreased chances of getting in trouble because you're in a bar.)
[2% chance to get in trouble in the gaj]

[stoicreader]

An aide ways a friend as she walks. She's hit with a brawl, or two, then backstabbed/sapped just to finish off the stun.

It's a way to soften folks up before a surprise attack.

[Armaddict]

While all true thematically, the completely ridiculous behavior I see around the brawl code -as it stands- makes me averse to making brawl any more useful as anything other than entertainment for rough'n tumble types.  Believe it was me and Desertman who had it out over this last time.

Remains a thematic device in my head without true utility.  I'd present more emphasis on the faulty crimcode for the desires presented than trying to alter code for circumvention of the actual problem.

[Chettaman]

I can argue that in a game where you play the role of another person, ''thematic tools'' would find actual and practical use.

[MarshallDFX]

While all true thematically, the completely ridiculous behavior I see around the brawl code -as it stands- makes me averse to making brawl any more useful as anything other than entertainment for rough'n tumble types.  Believe it was me and Desertman who had it out over this last time.

Remains a thematic device in my head without true utility.  I'd present more emphasis on the faulty crimcode for the desires presented than trying to alter code for circumvention of the actual problem.

I'm curious for you to elaborate on the concerns

[Armaddict]

I can argue that in a game where you play the role of another person, ''thematic tools'' would find actual and practical use.

Except that those actual and practical uses are already covered with other commands and processes within the game.  This command/feature, in particular, was meant purely thematically; expanding it beyond its thematic purpose is out of a desire to lower risk of using those other commands that are in game.  In other words, a way to enter a 'grace period' before criminal code kicks in, by taking a non crim-coded action and bolstering it to grant it utility.

If you're talking about keeping it in its exact state as it is now, and just putting it everywhere...I'd suggest that you're going to see a lot less roleplay around it and a lot more eyerolling 'leave me alone' movements as people try to go about doing what they're doing (and hence more screams of bad roleplay from everyone over such because that guy didn't stop and just did an emote of stumbling on down the road).  If you're talking about making it actually have consequences, you are, again, talking about preventing yourself from suffering current consequences, in which case your expansion of the brawl code is actually just expanding grey area in interpretation which is already a curse.

If you want to rough someone up in the street, just subdue them and take them somewhere to do it, or attack them already.  If you want this to be easier in the city (despite it actually being fairly easy as is), then please, seriously, address the giant elephant of the room that is crimcode that impacts all of these sorts of mechanics on the ground floor.

I'm curious for you to elaborate on the concerns

If the above doesn't make sense enough, I'll go longer in another post.

[tapas]

I'm not sure why a hyper-authoritarian state would permit open disorder on the streets. Templars are supposed to have a monopoly on violence for a reason.

I'd be more in favor of a relaxation of the crimcode that permits characters to take a shots at each other before they get arrested (and then slapped on the wrist) than a suggestion that soldier would just be sitting by, ignoring their mandate.

I'd go even farther and implement a dueling system. Where you can challenge and accept terms; including to the death.

Militia officers, nobles etc would even be allowed to oversee these duels.

[Delirium]

I'd go even farther and implement a dueling system. Where you can challenge and accept terms; including to the death.

Militia officers, nobles etc would even be allowed to oversee these duels.

You can do that in the game right now, no extra code needed...

[Chettaman]

I've always imagined the law enforcement in Allanak to be similar to culture in a country I've never been to, but have seen a movie on. (the bread winner) The law enforcement in this movie is more than just tough and corrupt. They are absolute. Their leader's word is law and that leader's words is up to interpretation depending on who is doing the interpreting. But the majority of the people who are in power, believe in violence to enforce their laws and keep their world ''safe''.
For example, they firmly believe women should not be seen without a man present. When a woman is caught without a male present - they resort to direct confrontation.

They will speak ignorantly as if the only matter at hand is how this woman is outside without a man present. No matter what this woman says or does, the law enforcer is correct. There is no middle ground. The only person who can get in trouble is the woman. The law enforcer may do whatever he wants to this woman. Anything at all.
In zalanthas, I get it. The arm of the dragon has enlisted omnipotent super-soldiers and I'm willing to come up with ideas to improve how the crim code works as well. But I'm not a coder, but I can tell you... coding such ideas isn't easy. Lots of if's and or's and sequencing that will most likely involve way more than one block of code.

Anyway. To put use the fascism of "the bread winner" in armageddon; A soldier sees an elf loitering outside the water pavilion. That elf has the right to be there, sure. But the soldier doesn't agree. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, unless they're superior to this soldier. That elf doesn't belong, and this soldier may do whatever he wants to this elf. (In the bread winner's world, everyone in power will support a man who is beating a woman for what he believes in) In Zalanthas, most people in power (in this situation) will support a man who is beating an elf for loitering in a public place.
I know that you can subdue someone and beat them in private (wink). And I know it's easy enough to emote beating someone up in the middle of the streets, and I definitely know that some people will do the "ugh, power role play much - eye roll - walk away" thing. Because it's not fun to be a victim. And they will do this even when you just emote it. I know about "the grey area" you're talking about. And it exists, I believe, because people don't want to overstep ''their or anyone else's boundaries.'' and people who don't want their boundaries overstepped.
"Boundaries", of course, refers to several things at once and I imagine describing them in detail would help my cause, but I'm lazy. I've got the day off and I'm goin' for a run soon.

- "Except that those actual and practical uses are already covered with other commands and processes within the game."
= Currently, there is no code allowing you to physically offend someone in an intentionally non-lethal way using your "skill" against theirs in a public place without law enforcement rushing to arrest you. Also, of course, I want to lower the risk of being caught by the authorities, but not in the name of the kill command. ... but because I want people to know that I can fight them and beat them up anywhere - this will definitely make being a soldier easier since ''kill'' makes every other soldier nuts. Sometimes, I promise, you just want to beat someone up and take their boots instead of looting their corpse. True, enough, though. If soldiers saw fighting, in spite of how you intended to finish the fight, they would approach. A chance to delay was me getting too excited about not getting arrested. So I suggest brawling in public be reprimanded in the same way as someone using ''kill'' or other offending commands.

I'll look for a post talking about crim code and post my ideas about crim code, because so many people hate it.

[BadSkeelz]

In addition to other suggestions, we should make it so stats are taken in to account by brawl code, along with offense/defense. Right now I'm pretty sure they are not.

[Hauwke]

Fairly sure stats, or at the very least strength and armor are taken into account when you actually connect with someone using the hit command.

[BadSkeelz]

3 HP vs 1HP, maybe. The real problem is getting that Hit to land.

Warrior characters with exceptional strength and agility cannot land hits in brawls with anyone older than them, until they begin training and raising their offense and (maybe) defense stats. I know this from personal experience. Stats are at best underrepresented by the current code.

[Hauwke]

The stun damage varies much more than the hp damage does, though honestly thats the same case when it comes to using the kill command unarmed, its mostly just going to be stun damage rather than hp. Which makes sense, sure a fist to the head does damage to the outside of your head, but mostly it just gives you a concussion.

In my experience though, the only time that difference in stun damage matters is when there is a huge difference in strength, lets take an elf and a half-giant. Rightly so, the elf probably does super small amounts of stun, if at all. But the half-giant can have the person staggering around unable to use the hit command back in just one, maybe two connected strikes. Or half-giant strength versus anything really when it comes to brawling,which makes it all feel underwhelming. That hulking human over there who has spent his entire life learning how to punch kids out in one strike, should be able to do so against all those tiny tressy teens running around who have likely never even been punched before. But they cant, because code doesnt allow for that, mostly because its really not robust enough.

[tapas]

I'd go even farther and implement a dueling system. Where you can challenge and accept terms; including to the death.

Militia officers, nobles etc would even be allowed to oversee these duels.

You can do that in the game right now, no extra code needed...

Yeah. But in 15 years of playing, I've never seen it happen.

[CodeMaster]

Yeah. But in 15 years of playing, I've never seen it happen.

Weird!  Not that I'm invalidating what you're saying (it'd be cool if they were more common) but I've been in multiple duels to the death.  I usually end up running away.

[Delirium]

I think he meant "in the arena". I have a feeling it's because it's not so easy to run away if you lose.

New character concept: a mercenary who challenges their enemies to a deathmatch in the arena.