Bringing Back Full Elementalists

[Synthesis]

I would like to see elemental main guilds return. I understand the rationale behind removing them but I think it is inherently flawed.

The idea that PCs are people before they are magickers is fine. But that logic should apply to any class choice. PCs are people before they are assassins. PCs are people before they are merchants. Being a merchant or a warrior or a ranger class doesn't define a PC any more than being a full krathi does, except that these particular skills elicit a social response in addition to a coded one. But so do pickpockets, burglars, etc.

Right now, we have PCs who can be really good at swords and okay at shitting fireballs. And maybe when Amos was born, he is genetically predisposed to being good at swords and mediocre at shitting fireballs. But maybe Malik is a full guild fire-shitter, and he's really good at shitting fireballs and just mediocre at chopping motherfuckers with bone swords.

You're conveniently ignoring the second part of the argument, which is that most of the full guilds were hella OP and total buzzkills for everyone who wasn't playing one of them.

[Bahliker]

I'm a fan of forward progress. All of the main guilds have wanted to be redesigned for a long time, especially magickers and psionicists - a huge project. It can't happen a little at a time, making small adjustments because X stupid player did Y idiotic and abusive crap with spell Z. Two decades of those kinds of minor tweaks with no change to the underlying structure had everything all mangled up. But on the other hand, a complete overhaul can't happen in one giant leap on a live game without immense headaches for people on both sides of the curtain.

So if I consider these subs to be a stopgap measure, a filler between the era of full guild magickers and whatever comes next, I'm cool with it. There are two closely related problems that I think the 'what comes next' phase needs to address.

1: They're built out of trees that weren't ever designed to be split up. So in order to make some of them useful and meaningful, and to avoid excessive overlap, some of the others have become little more than rp props. Perhaps dividing them up that way isn't the best approach. It seems like we had this big pile of spells and wanted to use as many as possible. So they were pushed into piles rather than set aside so we could think of a dozen and a half cool and unique approaches to magic, designed from the ground up.

2: As some have indicated in myriad different ways, the current system prohibits characters that are dedicated mages. Perhaps that's why so many seem to be taking merchant? They don't see any excuse for having experience in fighting, wilderness, or sneakthievery with their lifelong temple dweller, so they go with merchant. Anyway, while having the same tree as every other pc of your element (that rather quickly branches to dozens of powers) IS crazy, being arbitrarily locked into a 'theme' of your power source - divorced from the rest - is dumb as hell. Maybe some of them suck and some of them rock, but when I imagine playing a character that's stuck with a dud subguild, who's studied with mages of his element for years on end, I reach a sort of logic error when I wonder why he doesn't start taking tips from the ones that can do useful, profitable things with their magick.

So in short, (1) rethink the current structure of the subs because (2) the contrived lore being used to explain balancing efforts is this year's Arm Reborn. For now they seem like a good springboard for getting to something people will like way more than having the old main guilds back.

Lastly,

[...] most of the full guilds were hella OP and total buzzkills for everyone who wasn't playing one of them.

OP? So what? Getting bashed, disarmed and brained is a buzzkill too but we don't bitch, we just move on. As long as the plot-killing swiss army knife elementalist is no more, I hope to god they remain OP. Remain OP so people have a legit reason to fear and hate them. In fact I hope they get more OP so we can stop calling it OP because class balance is bullshit. Then we can instead just call it "the way it is".

The real problem with OP magickers (of olde) is the nickel-and-dime tree adjustments made over the years didn't quite make up for abusive players. It was always a game of whack-a-mole. The solution there should have been to stop giving powerful karma roles to shitty players just because they asked.

[Decadent Decisions]

I'm just going to slip in here, to suggest that any magick subguild is hella OP with the right set up. The real mages that were being selected for their OP behaviors to do mission-y things were the same mages that now (and back then) cost(ed) 4-6 karma. This change, if anything, actually made mages stronger for combat. I can take 2 or 3 karma, and positively ruin a mekillot. I would love to have seen a full Rukkian do that without literal years of play or some sort of convoluted scheme.

That said, I do understand where staff are coming at it from an angle of having mages be -something else- before they are a mage. I still wish for higher-magick subguilds or simply a high magick mainguild back. And that's not even me getting into the heart break as a player who first found the game and wanted to play a nilazi more than anything, losing that opportunity. Though that -might- be a separate issue in and of itself, why they would remove a few choice magick guilds and not make them subguilds at all.

[HavokBlue]

I would like to see elemental main guilds return. I understand the rationale behind removing them but I think it is inherently flawed.

The idea that PCs are people before they are magickers is fine. But that logic should apply to any class choice. PCs are people before they are assassins. PCs are people before they are merchants. Being a merchant or a warrior or a ranger class doesn't define a PC any more than being a full krathi does, except that these particular skills elicit a social response in addition to a coded one. But so do pickpockets, burglars, etc.

Right now, we have PCs who can be really good at swords and okay at shitting fireballs. And maybe when Amos was born, he is genetically predisposed to being good at swords and mediocre at shitting fireballs. But maybe Malik is a full guild fire-shitter, and he's really good at shitting fireballs and just mediocre at chopping motherfuckers with bone swords.

You're conveniently ignoring the second part of the argument, which is that most of the full guilds were hella OP and total buzzkills for everyone who wasn't playing one of them.

That's not the argument that was put forward by staff at the time the decision was made. Also, we can bring back main guild elementalists while examining what spells they have available to them and replacing problematic spells.

[Lizzie]

In Re: reconstructing new magicks subclasses, which the staff have said they are interested in exploring:

My disjointed thoughts on the matter, since it'd be a bad thing to use actual spell lists on the GDB:

Look at the previous full-guild spell tree of Whira.
Look at the spells on that tree that you have used to fashion your subguilds from, and select the most "defining" spell of each subguild.

Now - I want to make a whiran, Lizzie-style for a new system that doesn't exist yet:

I get to select from whichever subguild we have currently. Then, I can select any one (or two?) spells from each the other subguilds of my element. EXCEPT for those "defining" spells I just mentioned. Those are off-limits to me.

Now, when I show up out of the hall of kings, I'll get my subguild's starting spells, plus whatever other spells eventually branch from those starting spells. I will also eventually branch those "selected" spells that I picked during chargen.

I wish I could use actual spells for an example list. But if the staff is interested in the concept I could shoot over a request.

[Akaramu]

Magick is supposed to be hella OP and unbalanced. That's why mages wear gems, why they're excluded from pretty much any and all city RPTs, why they have to spend much of their time solo RPing or idling. Why they can only really join one clan in the entire game, which they might not even want to consider for strong IC reasons (find out IC).

Being hella OP was what compensated them for all the disadvantages (many of which are OOC disadvantages for the player) they had to live with. Now they're just shunned and excluded from society for no good reason. Because while it's theoretically possible to become OP, most PCs will die long, long before they reach that point. Everyone else gets picked on by mage haters who know exactly that 98% of mages aren't really that dangerous anymore.

Except code pros like Synthesis, of course.

Mundanes can join a clan and become hella OP over time (without great risk, I might add) while attending RPTs, enjoying full taverns and plenty of interaction, a wide variety of clan selections, clan protection so they don't get randomly murderized by people who decide to kill them the instant they look at them, free food and storage, and much more. How's that fair?

[Lizzie]

Another option I can think of, which I can use info from the help files so it's not giving out ic info:

Make semi-customizable mage subclasses. For instance:

Make it so ALL "vivaduans" can make water, and can dry up moisture (or whatever similar spell might exist).
From that point, each player can choose from "x" number of spells from the full list of vivaduan spells.
They'll still be placed in the same "tier" that they were prior to this. So if they're 3rd tier spells, they won't show up on the starting list. But they will branch from the second-tier spells, which will still branch from the 1st tier spells.

Maybe make it so the player can "choose three" from the 2nd tier, and "choose two" from the third tier, and their first four will be "make water" and "eliminate water" plus whichever 2 others come with the specialty subguild they chose.

I'd have to look at the lists again and lay it out more concisely, but you get the general idea.

[Akaramu]

I'd like to add that all the people who have already left because of the magick change aren't even reflected in the poll results. I'll be one of them after my current PC.

[Hauwke]

Thats a bit extreme. Have you actually tried the subguilds?

[Akaramu]

Thats a bit extreme. Have you actually tried the subguilds?

Have you read my posts in this thread?

[Hauwke]

I have read a few of them yes. But I will take that as a yes.

[Akaramu]

I have read a few of them yes. But I will take that as a yes.

Hint: I haven't been able to attend a single publicly announced RPT in the past 4 RL months. There were a lot of them. I was excluded from every single one of them except... that one arena RPT.

[Hauwke]

That wasnt actually the point of my question, but there you go.

Also, gemmed can still attend every Arena Rpt, whether they can actively take part is an entirely different question but thats an entirely different beast to tangle with.

[Akaramu]

Also, gemmed can still attend every Arena Rpt, whether they can actively take part is an entirely different question but thats an entirely different beast to tangle with.

Which means like... 2 public RPTs per RL year.

[Hauwke]

There was a slew of them awhile back, at least one every month or so. Either way if you want to attend Rpt's, dont play an undesireable.

[Akaramu]

There was a slew of them awhile back, at least one every month or so. Either way if you want to attend Rpt's, dont play an undesireable.

Magick is supposed to be hella OP and unbalanced. That's why mages wear gems, why they're excluded from pretty much any and all city RPTs, why they have to spend much of their time solo RPing or idling. Why they can only really join one clan in the entire game, which they might not even want to consider for strong IC reasons (find out IC).

Being hella OP was what compensated them for all the disadvantages (many of which are OOC disadvantages for the player) they had to live with. Now they're just shunned and excluded from society for no good reason.

You completely missed my point. I even bolded it for you. 

[Hauwke]

I think in a way we are agreeing, not intentionally but in some small way our opinions match, except on the fact that the subguilds suck, though that could be a case of I never actually got to play a main guild elementalist, I would be able to now if they were available, but thats neither here nor there at this stage.

[Akaramu]

That's right, you can't really compare the two if you've never played a main guild elementalist.

They were pure awesomesauce, and fully justified all the IC and OOC disadvantages they had to deal with. I say this as someone who never PKed or even intentionally inconvenienced anyone with a mage PC. So, not all of us played mages to be dicks.

[Hauwke]

I cant personally compare them no, thats like saying a person who doesnt have kids doesnt know what having kids would be like. Sure they dont fully comprehend the frustration, but they certainly understand that sleepless nights will ensue.

Im not going to argue that they werent awesome. They certainly seemed to be given the anecdotal evidence thats just bursting from threads like these, im just saying that maybe losing them isnt quite as bad as it could be. Now you have a mage who self sustain themself easier. They dont need someone to cut their chalton for them, they dont need someone to hand hold them to Luirs because they wanted to fake being a merchant and didnt take a direction sense guild.

There is a significant loss in mainguilds being gone, but maybe its not so bad as it seems.

Point is, this is the way things are now, arguing against staff or even other people is really going to do much at this point but annoy yourself with the fact people wont, or simply cant listen.

Edit: I hope that was coherent enough. Im running on fumes, might be back for the talk come morning.

[Akaramu]

I'm arguing because I want to preserve the MUD I fell in love with. I've discovered that I don't love this new Armageddon as much as the old one, but I don't want to just silently give up on it. I suspect others have. Which could be one of the reasons player numbers (as reflected by the who command) are half of what they used to be in, say, 2013.

Anyway, I'm going to save my energy for that feedback request I promised to do.

[Nergal]

Every time I try to draft a reply to this thread I'm at a loss as to what to say that isn't something I've said already. So I'm bowing out. Feel free to discuss among yourselves.

[Mazy]

We still hold a pretty good number during prime time, but yeah, they are a bit lower. It's worth noting, too, there has been a massive influx this week. 97 new accounts, kudos to the people behind that. There seems to be some vitriol about this that's bubbled up, and I never intended that when I started this thread. Nergal, you get a lot of flak that's undue.

From the other side of the spectrum, I get why people are some glad that the full guilds are gone. Some aspects of the main guilds could be used for catastrophic trolling. While rangers and mundanes can ruin your day, the tools that Whirans had were beyond annoying and down right abused from time to time.  Don't get me wrong, in the right hands, they're wonderful. I knew whirans who wrote beautifully and took risks to involve me when still fairly new, and one drovian in particular who was mentoring my first elementalist to be a person, not an element.

Adding to clarify some elements of why Whirans were annoying for some of the influx of new players. If you didn't have the scan skill, there's practically nothing you could do to them, so they could toss warriors around last Airbender style and steal your mount, or could outright kill you with absurdly cheap gimmicks that there's little to nothing you could do about. Mages were (and probably still are) scary.

[boog]

I don't think that the lower player number has anything to do with magick.

[Decadent Decisions]

Just worth tossing out there, to reiterate that point; the things that were annoying in magickers are still there. Whirans can still go 'unseen' and have all sorts of shenanigans with warriors. Krathis can still explode people basically. The only change really to Krathis was a karma increase for the super powers of the guild, while whirans got easier to use at lower levels of karma, with the REALLY dangerous whirans still being the same exact karma. Karma is reflection of staff trust. Naturally, the things requiring more karma require more staff trust because they're extremely powerful things.

That said, I think the general argument on the side of 'too OP' isn't much to be defended. What staff outlined in this case was how it infringed upon plots for the mundane at times, and how it set up a priority for certain characters to be purely mages in a world where they wanted the focus to be on surviving gritty Zalanthas. At least, assuming I understood some of that right. They wanted less MAGE and more PERSON. I don't necessarily agree with it.

I still think high magick with a focus on nothing else really should be a sustainable role you wish to play(that's coming from someone who never really got the option). That doesn't seem to be what is wished for topside though.

[Mazy]

I still think high magick with a focus on nothing else really should be a sustainable role you wish to play(that's coming from someone who never really got the option). That doesn't seem to be what is wished for topside though.

I agree. If it was allowed, it would best be handled through special applications to not only limit their number, but also take into special consideration what the player's intention is with the role and how they will use it.

I'm going to bring up more about this at the player and staff meeting because it's a topic I feel strongly about.