Author Topic: Release Note discussion!  (Read 150162 times)

Dresan

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #875 on: April 13, 2019, 05:49:16 PM »
I rarely see gear other than shield take damage. You really need some big hits to start seeing a difference.

I think weapons should sustain damage like armor based on how strong the wielder is, not outright break, more damaged the weapon the less damage it does.

 Armor repair could then be changed to equipment repair allowing for both weapon and armor repair.
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Namino

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #876 on: April 13, 2019, 05:56:32 PM »
I rarely see gear other than shield take damage. You really need some big hits to start seeing a difference.

The jet-black, long-tailed kryl laughs heartily.

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Dresan

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #877 on: April 13, 2019, 06:24:40 PM »
Ah kryl, how i miss thee.
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Brokkr

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #878 on: April 13, 2019, 08:04:53 PM »
In seriousness though, this dodge thing is an enormously attractive change of course. I don't know if this is how I would have gone about solving the problem, but I clearly don't have access to the code so I don't know how difficult things really are. Thank you for listening to the players.

That being said, Brokkr/Ness: is it possible to alter this flat chance on an NPC by NPC basis? If this flat chance is independent of the agility/defense of the NPC, then you can just slot it in as whatever you'd like for anything, no, unless it's a global variable? You can make it negligible for turaal (who don't need any more dodginess) and make it sizeable for mekillot (to encourage people to tackle bigger challenges).

This change is good in that it solves the false ceiling and makes achievement possible, and either way I'm happier for it, but can we go farther and springboard this into adding risk/reward into the equation?

It is a very small chance.  It is global, but is meant to address clan situations more than NPCs, as with NPCs you can generally change what you are fighting.  Not so easy in clans.

It was possible in certain situations to be sparring an equally skilled opponent and have no possibility of a dodge, and thus having no chance to learn. This was a way to address that without redoing the entire or massive parts of the combat code, which would take a lot of time and player deaths to appease Ginka.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1181
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #879 on: April 13, 2019, 08:22:36 PM »
In seriousness though, this dodge thing is an enormously attractive change of course. I don't know if this is how I would have gone about solving the problem, but I clearly don't have access to the code so I don't know how difficult things really are. Thank you for listening to the players.

That being said, Brokkr/Ness: is it possible to alter this flat chance on an NPC by NPC basis? If this flat chance is independent of the agility/defense of the NPC, then you can just slot it in as whatever you'd like for anything, no, unless it's a global variable? You can make it negligible for turaal (who don't need any more dodginess) and make it sizeable for mekillot (to encourage people to tackle bigger challenges).

This change is good in that it solves the false ceiling and makes achievement possible, and either way I'm happier for it, but can we go farther and springboard this into adding risk/reward into the equation?

It is a very small chance.  It is global, but is meant to address clan situations more than NPCs, as with NPCs you can generally change what you are fighting.  Not so easy in clans.

It was possible in certain situations to be sparring an equally skilled opponent and have no possibility of a dodge, and thus having no chance to learn. This was a way to address that without redoing the entire or massive parts of the combat code, which would take a lot of time and player deaths to appease Ginka.

Yesss...This is exactly what I was hoping it was for. PCs plateau together, and then basically just stay the same for long stretches of time until 'events outside the compound' train them up. This provides a sort of continuity past 5 Days Played to the importance of training together. Dig it.
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gotdamnmiracle

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John

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #881 on: April 13, 2019, 09:16:53 PM »
I'd have muchly preferred to see options added for people to spend coins on. Instead the trend seems to be to keep taking things away (coded power, fiscal power) until there'll be nothing left to do but wait in the tavern for the next catastrophe or play yet again as someone's disposable minion.
We already have lots of things to spend coin on. But those things are seen as rather meaningless to most people because of how easily they're obtained. Making those things harder to obtain will potentially make them more valuable.

Also, for those who say that staff don't listen: Dodge change. Thanks to Brokkr for doing all the hard work and your willingness to reexamine a long standing issue and advocate for a change.

Bogre

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #882 on: April 13, 2019, 09:47:34 PM »
I tripped and Fale down my stairs. Drink milk and you'll grow Uaptal. I know this guy from the state of Tenneshi. This house will go up Borsail tomorrow. I gave my book to him Nenyuk it back again. I hired this guy golfing to Kadius around for a while.

Bushranger

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #883 on: April 14, 2019, 01:46:03 AM »
It is a very small chance.  It is global, but is meant to address clan situations more than NPCs, as with NPCs you can generally change what you are fighting.  Not so easy in clans.

It was possible in certain situations to be sparring an equally skilled opponent and have no possibility of a dodge, and thus having no chance to learn. This was a way to address that without redoing the entire or massive parts of the combat code, which would take a lot of time and player deaths to appease Ginka.

Yes this exactly! Thank you.
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Namino

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #884 on: April 14, 2019, 01:56:39 AM »

It is a very small chance.  It is global, but is meant to address clan situations more than NPCs, as with NPCs you can generally change what you are fighting.  Not so easy in clans.

I agree. As long as a chance exists, stagnation can be avoided, so this is a major step in the positive direction.

I just wish we could brainstorm up a way to make dangerous things more enticing and non-dangerous things less useful. As you've said, you can always change the NPCs you're fighting when dodges get scarce. The problem as I see it is that this requires you to target things low on the food-chain/danger scale, rather than biting off actual challenges. Skilling up on NPCs doesn't require you to stick your neck out yet.

In some ways I think the proposed flat-dodge chance might work out okay, because once no wild animal can dodge you except for the flat percentage, the "optimal" route would be to hunt things that give you the most chances (ie, something that can weather the most hits), which includes violent megafauna. Unfortunately, I think a mek can probably take as many hits as 10 scrab, and most sane people would choose many fights of few skill chances each against something safe than one fight of many skill chances against something that can whallop you.

But that's just spitballing. Again, reemphasizing, the proposed change is a good thing.

John

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #885 on: April 14, 2019, 04:49:43 AM »
Instead the trend seems to be to keep taking things away (coded power, fiscal power) until there'll be nothing left to do but wait in the tavern for the next catastrophe or play yet again as someone's disposable minion.
Just to be absolute clear: I do not see this as taking something away. I see it as trying to provide something. That something is fiscal power.

Removing main guild magickers? That took something away. The whole mantra of "character first, magicker second" could have been maintained by simply having subguild magickers be an option. Removing Drovians from the game? That took something away. I do not see this as taking something away. The ability to amass large amounts of coin was severely boosted by your ability to login after a reboot or crash. It made no sense from an IC perspective and was purely an OOC construct (albeit one I certainly benefited from as an offpeak player where the reboots typically happened in my prime time).

What does this introduce into the game? Coin being meaningful. Resources being meaningful. Paying for water or food isn't hard. Because of how easy it is to amass wealth. Traveling to other markets to offload goods, while profitable, isn't necessary because you can get a whole lot of wealth in your local market (whatever market that might be). It often won't actually be worth the trouble. Hopefully with this change, not only will it be worth the trouble, but establishing contacts in other towns and talking with them about what the local market is demanding and what the local market has to offer so that the merchant can turn a profit. Because turning a profit is the difference between paying for your apartment or living on the street.

Dresan

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #886 on: April 14, 2019, 08:29:04 AM »
Wow. The reboot item change certainly isn't a small.

At least over time, stores might start to fill up with common stuff.

Hmm. I like it and am curious to see how this turns out, anything to make coins more valuable to the masses can really only be a good thing. Maybe I might be able to pay someone to do something without them rolling their eyes at a couple hundred coins. It would be nice if this trickles upwards and accepting bribes or bigger cuts of coins become more tempting.

I would love for more things to spend coin on but also I think we should re-enforce certain things in game. For example, how you smell should be a factor of whether or not you can go to Reds and get served. With the bartender or waitress assuming the person is not hidden, visibly wrinkling their nose to anyone who just smells of dust and sweat. Even more so for being covered with any blood and gore.

It wouldn't prevent you from sitting there mind you, a byn sergeant heading there for business might not care, but many other characer's depending on their role might as a sign of status. Certain fancier places and perhaps some shops might call you out on it or even refuse to serve you if you stink of commoner.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 08:45:18 AM by Dresan »
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Eyeball

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #887 on: April 14, 2019, 10:47:40 AM »
For example, how you smell should be a factor of whether or not you can go to Reds and get served. With the bartender or waitress assuming the person is not hidden, visibly wrinkling their nose to anyone who just smells of dust and sweat. Even more so for being covered with any blood and gore.

Might I point out that the Red's is smack dab in the middle of the Commoner's Quarter, with a whole plaza of full of commoners just outside? And that the Commoner's Quarter is described as being extremely smelly?

Offended noses should be getting their drinks in the Arboretum, because they won't find relief in the Commoner's Quarter.

The Red's isn't that hoity-toity either. Have you looked at the furniture in there? Although I suppose you could argue it's a legacy from the Bard's Barrel. The various descriptions never were completely changed over.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 10:52:10 AM by Eyeball »

X-D

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #888 on: April 14, 2019, 11:21:06 AM »
I love how people complain about too much coin, which is true and caused by such changes as the banks charging. Then complain that there will not be enough if npcs don't restock coin after a reboot.
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Dresan

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #889 on: April 14, 2019, 11:24:06 AM »
For example, how you smell should be a factor of whether or not you can go to Reds and get served. With the bartender or waitress assuming the person is not hidden, visibly wrinkling their nose to anyone who just smells of dust and sweat. Even more so for being covered with any blood and gore.

Might I point out that the Red's is smack dab in the middle of the Commoner's Quarter, with a whole plaza of full of commoners just outside? And that the Commoner's Quarter is described as being extremely smelly?

Offended noses should be getting their drinks in the Arboretum, because they won't find relief in the Commoner's Quarter.

The Red's isn't that hoity-toity either. Have you looked at the furniture in there? Although I suppose you could argue it's a legacy from the Bard's Barrel. The various descriptions never were completely changed over.

Fair pointed worth discussing, in another thread someday but I don't want to get into that as the is not the point of the idea. Replace Red with Arboretum if need be to get the point across.
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Dresan

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #890 on: April 14, 2019, 11:33:51 AM »
I love how people complain about too much coin, which is true and caused by such changes as the banks charging. Then complain that there will not be enough if npcs don't restock coin after a reboot.

What I could see is a bits shop, never having inventory and willing to buy almost anything for 1-3 sid at the most OR better yet just trade for food/water. This would ensure anyone can sell things and collect enough to buy food and water.

After that even if the shops stop buying all together, i would have no complaints myself.

This can be very interesting for everyone though as even thieves will now be more interested in coins or really unique stuff rather than common stuff to steal from apartments or people. 
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Eyeball

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #891 on: April 14, 2019, 12:14:02 PM »
I love how people complain about too much coin, which is true and caused by such changes as the banks charging. Then complain that there will not be enough if npcs don't restock coin after a reboot.

Because adding things to spend on is just an absurd idea?

Property, 24/7 NPC hirelings, privileges and minor titles.

It doesn't even have to be that. City projects looking for donors. A good example was the attempt to build onto the "rock-lined road" west of Allanak. Why can't the City Ministry collect money to build a crafting hall, for example, since people hate it so much if someone crafts in the taverns? Why can't there be small plots of land that people could operate as farms, planting and such, when the city is going through one of its food shortages? Why not a road to Menos? An archery tower somewhere along the road for soldiers to go out and man now and then to cover those travelling to Menos or to the obsidian mine?

Why not use imagination to expand the game?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 12:33:16 PM by Eyeball »

X-D

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #892 on: April 14, 2019, 12:19:24 PM »
Just pointing it out, people complained PCs had too much money because it was safe in the bank, Changes were made, which caused people to have even more money because it was not safe in a bank. People complained more about PCs having too much money. Changes were made that might reduce money a tiny little bit and people complain there is not going to be enough money.

Myself, I hate the changes to the bank because it has increased the amount of coin in the world.

Changes to merchants so far, look great to me.
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Bushranger

  • Posts: 1874
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #893 on: April 14, 2019, 01:18:09 PM »
I love how people complain about too much coin, which is true and caused by such changes as the banks charging. Then complain that there will not be enough if npcs don't restock coin after a reboot.

Because adding things to spend on is just an absurd idea?

Property, 24/7 NPC hirelings, privileges and minor titles.

It doesn't even have to be that. City projects looking for donors. A good example was the attempt to build onto the "rock-lined road" west of Allanak. Why can't the City Ministry collect money to build a crafting hall, for example, since people hate it so much if someone crafts in the taverns? Why can't there be small plots of land that people could operate as farms, planting and such, when the city is going through one of its food shortages? Why not a road to Menos? An archery tower somewhere along the road for soldiers to go out and man now and then to cover those travelling to Menos or to the obsidian mine?

Why not use imagination to expand the game?

These are things that can, and have been, done in game now.

Want to throw money at privileges and minor titles? Find a Templar/Noble and pay them.
Want to own property or get some hirelings? It's a similar system and work up through the player clan system.

Want to build up the roads? Get to work on it. Negotiate with a Templar and tell them your plans, hire grebbers to go out there and place rocks, talk to a Borsail noble and hire/buy a slave labour crew to build it up. Hire a unit of T'zai Byn to patrol the area where the grebbers you've hired are placing stone and the Borsail labour crew are setting those stones into the road.

Bam you're spending money on a City Project.

Same again for the Crafting Hall. Rent one of the warehouses from the City Ministry and open it up yourself as a crafting hall. Your Player Clan is all about setting this up and providing access to a warehouse with tools and support for independant crafters!

As again for the other ideas. Some will need more work coordinating with staff as you go about them but most are available now if you work with the Nobles/Templars in game and throw your money around at them.
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Dresan

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #894 on: April 14, 2019, 01:32:44 PM »
These are things that can, and have been, done in game now.

Want to throw money at privileges and minor titles? Find a Templar/Noble and pay them.

It was something that was done to great effect in Tuluk. Don't see it very much in allanak, but perhaps I just haven't noticed.

Additionally, it feels like there is not enough temptation for militia and Templar to take bribes. I hope this is looked at next.

As for nakkie nobles...heh. I've never seen the roles really allow the players behind them to contribute as much as any Tuluki nobles could to the overall game. This may be improving a bit, or at least seems to be going in the right direction but not sure.
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John

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #895 on: April 14, 2019, 01:34:30 PM »
Property, 24/7 NPC hirelings, privileges and minor titles.
Property exists (rentable apartments, warehouses, shops, compounds), 24/7 NPC guards exist. Arguably founding a minor merchant house is buying priviledges and minor titles.

Bushranger covers everything else.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1181
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #896 on: April 14, 2019, 01:38:47 PM »
This may sound silly, but it might be cool to have an 'Inheritance' subguild or karma option, wherein you start in the game with like 10k in the bank. So you can try and jumpstart a player clan from the get go. Make it 2K. Call it the 'Inflation Subguild', heh.
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John

  • Posts: 4308
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #897 on: April 14, 2019, 01:43:24 PM »
This may sound silly, but it might be cool to have an 'Inheritance' subguild or karma option, wherein you start in the game with like 10k in the bank. So you can try and jumpstart a player clan from the get go. Make it 2K. Call it the 'Inflation Subguild', heh.
Doesn't seem particularly thematic. Back in the day though the merchant guild did seem to start with a 'sid boost. It's possible that some of the heavy mercantile classes have a similar boost to 'sid.

Bushranger

  • Posts: 1874
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #898 on: April 14, 2019, 02:13:49 PM »
It's also a great thing to use a Special Application on. 10k coins in the bank is worthy of a special app I would say.
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gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 1015
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #899 on: April 14, 2019, 02:44:35 PM »
I'm curious if stores will also have coin steadily refill over time or willthe only items they get and the only coin they get be from players?
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