Author Topic: Release Note discussion!  (Read 150156 times)

Jihelu

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #550 on: May 27, 2018, 05:07:00 PM »
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
The logical part of me says something like "It would be hard to impliment cause code" But staff overhauled archery and made it into separate skills just fine. I am curious as to the answer to this as well.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 581
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #551 on: May 27, 2018, 05:18:48 PM »
Yeah, I deliberately played a regular guild because I was afraid it'd be my last chance to really give it a try before the overhaul, but all this beta-exclusive cool stuff makes me want to store so I can play with the new skills. I don't want to want to store!

EDIT: Hopefully this doesn't sound like an actual complaint. The only reason I feel this way is because it's super exciting. We'll all get to play the new classes eventually!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 05:23:54 PM by sleepyhead »

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #552 on: May 27, 2018, 05:52:20 PM »
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

Brokkr

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #553 on: May 27, 2018, 06:04:14 PM »
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2267
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #554 on: May 27, 2018, 06:06:03 PM »
Is there any chance of particularly long lived characters getting access to these new skills once the new guilds go in?

I mean, I get that these are advanced skills and not everyone is going to get them. But they do seem like fundamental combat skills that will set apart the new and old guilds by a decent margin once people with the new guilds can match the old ones.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 06:08:37 PM by Hauwke »

Vox

  • Posts: 477
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #555 on: May 27, 2018, 06:15:16 PM »
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Stabbing is a subset of piercing and governed by piercing weapon skill but also separately by the hidden weapon-type vs race hit table. Backstab is obviously stabbing weapons, which leaves piercing weapons without a special ability. So it would be nice to see a piercing specific skill for those nomad spear-toters out there. Like a ‘thrusting’ or ‘jabbing’ ability that targets a victim’s joints (shoulder, elbow targetable to either es or ep) giving a chance at disarm whatever is being brandished or held? Perhaps polearms could do the same? Just as halberds should also be able to ‘hack’, razors be able to ‘riposte’.. or perhaps just allow piercing weapons to riposte as well since ‘rapiers’ are considered piercing weapons and are most realistically able to riposte?

Brokkr

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #556 on: May 27, 2018, 06:16:28 PM »
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
The logical part of me says something like "It would be hard to impliment cause code" But staff overhauled archery and made it into separate skills just fine. I am curious as to the answer to this as well.

It would be really easy to add riposte to warriors, from a code sense, due to work related by the new classes that Nessalin did.

So why don't we?

The first part of that answer is that by limiting to the new classes we are limiting to a small number of play testers that have agreed to report bugs and balance issues to us.  So we have time to see them in action on a small scale and figure out any bugs, but also figure out if they unbalance play or change the combat dynamic in a way we didn't anticipate, without making this an issue needing urgent attention because we rolled it out to the entire player base.  We have until the new classes go live to essentially test and tweak them.

The second part of that answer is around what happens after going live.  The long term revolves around the new classes, but there will be all the existing classes from existing characters for some time.  We aren't crafting the new classes to be compared to the old classes.  So lets say warrior gets some skills that one of the new heavy classes does not, but the new heavy class gets riposte.  If we give warrior riposte, do you think we will be opening ourselves up to eternal comparisons on why we should add the skills warrior got but the new class didn't to the new class, because we were willing to give warrior the new skills?  That is where we (and you can totally blame me for this) don't want to go, and would rather prefer that warrior keep its unique flavor, while there are still warrior characters around, distinct to the new classes.

Brokkr

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  • Posts: 1064
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #557 on: May 27, 2018, 06:20:21 PM »
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Stabbing is a subset of piercing and governed by piercing weapon skill but also separately by the hidden weapon-type vs race hit table. Backstab is obviously stabbing weapons, which leaves piercing weapons without a special ability. So it would be nice to see a piercing specific skill for those nomad spear-toters out there. Like a ‘thrusting’ or ‘jabbing’ ability that targets a victim’s joints (shoulder, elbow targetable to either es or ep) giving a chance at disarm whatever is being brandished or held? Perhaps polearms could do the same? Just as halberds should also be able to ‘hack’, razors be able to ‘riposte’.. or perhaps just allow piercing weapons to riposte as well since ‘rapiers’ are considered piercing weapons and are most realistically able to riposte?

We are not unaware of this, and have an idea or two of what we could do, but haven't mapped out or committed to anything there.  If we added a skill, it would be much more likely to add something in that is not currently possible, rather than simply replicate what is already possible.

Vox

  • Posts: 477
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #558 on: May 27, 2018, 06:23:30 PM »
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Stabbing is a subset of piercing and governed by piercing weapon skill but also separately by the hidden weapon-type vs race hit table. Backstab is obviously stabbing weapons, which leaves piercing weapons without a special ability. So it would be nice to see a piercing specific skill for those nomad spear-toters out there. Like a ‘thrusting’ or ‘jabbing’ ability that targets a victim’s joints (shoulder, elbow targetable to either es or ep) giving a chance at disarm whatever is being brandished or held? Perhaps polearms could do the same? Just as halberds should also be able to ‘hack’, razors be able to ‘riposte’.. or perhaps just allow piercing weapons to riposte as well since ‘rapiers’ are considered piercing weapons and are most realistically able to riposte?

We are not unaware of this, and have an idea or two of what we could do, but haven't mapped out or committed to anything there.  If we added a skill, it would be much more likely to add something in that is not currently possible, rather than simply replicate what is already possible.

The fact that you’re thinking about it is good enough for me! Thanks for the additions, the updates and the quick responses!

Cabooze

  • Posts: 332
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #559 on: May 27, 2018, 07:06:34 PM »
Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?
Tier 2 weapon skills are limited to Gladiator characters, so doubtful.

You're kidding right?!?!

I seriously hope this is a joke too.  :-\

BrainySmurf

  • Posts: 44
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #560 on: May 27, 2018, 07:08:51 PM »
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

Cabooze

  • Posts: 332
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #561 on: May 27, 2018, 07:11:32 PM »
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

..But why? Why limit and restrict the game even more? This is disgruntling.

Us and Armageddon is like living in a mansion with no keys. Every other day, a door is being locked, and a cupboard is being unlocked. Sure we get to tinker with these things now available to us, but what we had for the longest time is now gone? It almost seems like we are getting small consolation prizes for what's being taken away. ...Why?

I'm not trying to incite any toxicity or negativity, I'm just being realistic and trying to understand.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 07:22:33 PM by Cabooze »

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1511
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #562 on: May 27, 2018, 07:44:55 PM »
Are you not entertained?
Quote
Whatever happens, happens.

Rathustra

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Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #563 on: May 27, 2018, 08:01:11 PM »
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

..But why? Why limit and restrict the game even more? This is disgruntling.

Us and Armageddon is like living in a mansion with no keys. Every other day, a door is being locked, and a cupboard is being unlocked. Sure we get to tinker with these things now available to us, but what we had for the longest time is now gone? It almost seems like we are getting small consolation prizes for what's being taken away. ...Why?

I'm not trying to incite any toxicity or negativity, I'm just being realistic and trying to understand.

The 'advanced weapon skills' were restricted to a single guild and had maybe, at best, a half dozen objects for each. Some more popular ones had more objects, others had maybe one or two. The skills were added a long time ago and never developed. When attained they didn't grant anything beyond a new degree of combat prowess - no special moves or unusual techniques. They were just like the regular skills - only with exotic weapons.

The items aren't being removed and will now probably get more use. Plus we don't have to awkwardly try and make four different categories that somehow encompass every unusual type of weapon. Heck, maybe we could even focus on distinguishing these exotic weapons in a more meaningful way than gateposting them at the very extreme ends of combat grinding.

To compare a completely new combat skill that works across every possible slashing weapon, factoring in each weapon's individual qualities to a cupboard and these empty, featureless weapon skills to a room doesn't work.

Brokkr

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  • Posts: 1064
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #564 on: May 27, 2018, 08:34:45 PM »
In conjunction with what Rath said:

These skills tended to not be used even when they were branched.  They acted more as a goalpost than actual skills folks made use of.  They make more sense as a skill that anyone can make use of (Penned Gladiators) in a context that also makes more sense IC'ly.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 581
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #565 on: May 27, 2018, 08:42:00 PM »
I feel like that'd make more sense if the weapons were actually that weird and exotic. Some were, yes, but many were pretty ordinary. Hopefully this change will inspire some new objects that are weirder and more geared towards showmanship than a simple polearm--and maybe some of the plainer ones can be reclassed into basic weapon types.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2267
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #566 on: May 27, 2018, 09:16:19 PM »
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
The logical part of me says something like "It would be hard to impliment cause code" But staff overhauled archery and made it into separate skills just fine. I am curious as to the answer to this as well.

It would be really easy to add riposte to warriors, from a code sense, due to work related by the new classes that Nessalin did.

So why don't we?

The first part of that answer is that by limiting to the new classes we are limiting to a small number of play testers that have agreed to report bugs and balance issues to us.  So we have time to see them in action on a small scale and figure out any bugs, but also figure out if they unbalance play or change the combat dynamic in a way we didn't anticipate, without making this an issue needing urgent attention because we rolled it out to the entire player base.  We have until the new classes go live to essentially test and tweak them.

The second part of that answer is around what happens after going live.  The long term revolves around the new classes, but there will be all the existing classes from existing characters for some time.  We aren't crafting the new classes to be compared to the old classes.  So lets say warrior gets some skills that one of the new heavy classes does not, but the new heavy class gets riposte.  If we give warrior riposte, do you think we will be opening ourselves up to eternal comparisons on why we should add the skills warrior got but the new class didn't to the new class, because we were willing to give warrior the new skills?  That is where we (and you can totally blame me for this) don't want to go, and would rather prefer that warrior keep its unique flavor, while there are still warrior characters around, distinct to the new classes.
Yeah I get that, totally understand where you are coming from. I say it sucks, but I suppose it will have to suffice, and we can still use those skills regardless I suppose.


Another question on riposte, if you are going defensive, like say not attacking back, and you go into riposte, will the attacks happen or not?

Brokkr

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  • Posts: 1064
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #567 on: May 27, 2018, 10:39:28 PM »
No, ditto nosave combat.  Assuming no bugs.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2267
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #568 on: May 27, 2018, 10:57:06 PM »
Works for me. Thanks Brokkr!

Cabooze

  • Posts: 332
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #569 on: May 27, 2018, 11:02:38 PM »
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

..But why? Why limit and restrict the game even more? This is disgruntling.

Us and Armageddon is like living in a mansion with no keys. Every other day, a door is being locked, and a cupboard is being unlocked. Sure we get to tinker with these things now available to us, but what we had for the longest time is now gone? It almost seems like we are getting small consolation prizes for what's being taken away. ...Why?

I'm not trying to incite any toxicity or negativity, I'm just being realistic and trying to understand.

The 'advanced weapon skills' were restricted to a single guild and had maybe, at best, a half dozen objects for each. Some more popular ones had more objects, others had maybe one or two. The skills were added a long time ago and never developed. When attained they didn't grant anything beyond a new degree of combat prowess - no special moves or unusual techniques. They were just like the regular skills - only with exotic weapons.

The items aren't being removed and will now probably get more use. Plus we don't have to awkwardly try and make four different categories that somehow encompass every unusual type of weapon. Heck, maybe we could even focus on distinguishing these exotic weapons in a more meaningful way than gateposting them at the very extreme ends of combat grinding.

To compare a completely new combat skill that works across every possible slashing weapon, factoring in each weapon's individual qualities to a cupboard and these empty, featureless weapon skills to a room doesn't work.

I didn't mean to make it out as I'm belittling the work that you all are doing, I just feel like for what you're adding on and expanding on, you've still got a number of things behind locked doors that I would love to see represented in the gameworld again, such as the rest of the elements having their subguilds worked out, or even allowing for full magick guilds put behind a karma wall. I've long been striving for the chance to play one of those (drovian/nilazi), but it's no longer possible.

650Booger

  • Posts: 612
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #570 on: May 27, 2018, 11:12:49 PM »
despite staff denials, I'm choosing to believe that this Riposte feature is the first step in making combat more tactical
"Historical analogy is the last refuge of people who can't grasp the current situation."
-Kim Stanley Robinson

Veselka

  • Posts: 1181
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #571 on: May 28, 2018, 03:06:25 AM »
When did they deny that? It’s patently obvious that’s part and parcel with the changes.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

X-D

  • Posts: 5782
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #572 on: May 28, 2018, 07:28:56 AM »
I am amused by the staff response of "These skills barely used anyway." Like the players don't want to use them. When in fact they do. The advanced weapon skills are not used because a of, well, let us call it a code flaw (not really a flaw)...Alright, quirk. In that by the time you gain the advanced weapon skills it it is nearly impossible to raise them to any degree because you are already so good you miss 1 in 100 swings verses the Flash.

Riposte....I don't know yet, will reserve comment. Interesting idea.

I am more worried about the new classes, the more I learn the more I think that players and staff really do not understand balance and why Arm has worked for so many years.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Rumor

  • Posts: 174
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #573 on: May 28, 2018, 08:05:14 AM »
I am more worried about the new classes, the more I learn the more I think that players and staff really do not understand balance and why Arm has worked for so many years.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the new classes. I'm reserving any judgment on them until we have an exact idea what each class is capable of and their skill cap potentials. Balance is tricky to accomplish in a multiplayer, pvp capable game. Incredibly balanced and competitive games with long life spans such as Counter Strike and Starcraft (franchise) accomplish what they do due in large part to balance and the limit to variation between options (rock - paper - scissors game design elements), so I'm curious to see how having so many main classes will affect the competency environment across the game.

Being amazing at combat, thieving and crafting will have to have some sort of deficiency elsewhere, but what I hope to see with so many classes coming in, that those deficiencies are much less apparent. I'd prefer to see something rewarding longer lived characters, despite it already being said that we may have potentially higher starting abilities than we're used to. Again, I'm curious and hopeful it plays out much less jarring than I think many people are hyping themselves up to believe it will be and still feel like a natural experience.

650Booger

  • Posts: 612
Re: Release Note discussion!
« Reply #574 on: May 28, 2018, 01:43:31 PM »
When did they deny that? It’s patently obvious that’s part and parcel with the changes.

Quote
Riposte is the only stance we have, or have planned, for the time being.

-Brokr in ATS
"Historical analogy is the last refuge of people who can't grasp the current situation."
-Kim Stanley Robinson