Author Topic: Backstab  (Read 33761 times)

Jingo

  • Posts: 4791
Re: Backstab
« Reply #100 on: August 23, 2016, 08:40:56 PM »
The crux of the problem is generating failures on the high end.

This is what the recent code changes addressed. Skill increases occur without failures now, relative to the skill of your opponent. From second hand sources, it seems to have alleviated the sparring grind by a considerable margin.
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Inks

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #101 on: August 24, 2016, 04:15:10 AM »
Jingo is correct on the grind not really being as much of a thing now.
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Synthesis

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2016, 11:29:56 AM »
If you gain more per failure during the non-plateau phase, it makes grinding to the plateau phase shorter, that's it.

My point is that if you are not failing (and by all accounts I've seen thus far, they have not redefined what constitutes a failure), it doesn't matter how much better your opponent is than you.  You aren't failing, so your skillgain is always zero.  I haven't seen anything that suggest that you passively gain skill merely by being engaged in a fight with someone better than you.

Also, for advanced weapon branching...you have to factor out the PCs that start with a jman weapon skill due to cgp skill bumps.  It's much easier to get from jman to master with a weapon skill if your base O isn't pumping up your dice rolls and causing you not to fail.

Edited to add a citation:
You are more likely to gain in the listed skills if the opponent you're failing against is more skilled at fighting than you are.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:14:29 PM by Synthesis »
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Dunetrade55

  • Posts: 402
Re: Backstab
« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2016, 11:45:01 AM »
I swear to god I have seen a tick in my craft skills after a SUCCESS, Synthesis, which is the easiest, most risk-free way to measure it, particularly with the craft changes (difficulty of recipes being shown), whether it was just that one craft, or just craft skills and not combat skills, I can't tell you. I remember checking my skill list and available recipes right after a successful craft and being  like, OMFG WAT?! Of course, it MAY be dependent on your wis score, I wouldn't know. All I know is I've noticed some big changes in the skill grind. It's entirely possible the whole  "plateau" thing is a thing of the past, hopefully, it is.

EDIT: They did announce a wisdom change with the words along the lines of: "Wisdom is not the automatic dump stat anymore".
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 11:49:47 AM by Dunetrade55 »
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Riev

  • Posts: 6017
Re: Backstab
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2016, 12:32:17 PM »
The code still requires a fail for 90% of skill-ups. I HAVE seen skills go up without a straight up miss, but generally speaking... you need to have ONE supreme badass to train a bunch of people quicker. I spar against people at relative skill to me, and I don't mind saying I havn't gotten above apprentice in over 10days played yet.

My assumption is that its due to new people boosting their weapon skills, so I COULD learn more from them (if they're at Jman), but because they're new and have no defenses, I don't miss.

It can be very frustrating to build a concept out of "I fight people not animals" when fighting animals is the only sure way (despite minor risk) to get better at your chosen profession of killing humans.
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Dunetrade55

  • Posts: 402
Re: Backstab
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2016, 12:51:46 PM »
The code still requires a fail for 90% of skill-ups. I HAVE seen skills go up without a straight up miss, but generally speaking... you need to have ONE supreme badass to train a bunch of people quicker. I spar against people at relative skill to me, and I don't mind saying I havn't gotten above apprentice in over 10days played yet.

My assumption is that its due to new people boosting their weapon skills, so I COULD learn more from them (if they're at Jman), but because they're new and have no defenses, I don't miss.

It can be very frustrating to build a concept out of "I fight people not animals" when fighting animals is the only sure way (despite minor risk) to get better at your chosen profession of killing humans.

EDIT: I'm actually not sure if it's ok to go into that much detail with my experience with the code.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:53:35 PM by Dunetrade55 »
I'm asking for evidence, not telling you all to fuck off.

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Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2016, 03:27:38 PM »
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 6456
Re: Backstab
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2016, 03:59:17 PM »
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.

I think they secretly giggle at a lot of assumptions we make about code as players.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Backstab
« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2016, 05:06:50 PM »
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.

It's not tinfoil hats.

Riev is sitting at 10 days played with jman whatever.

I hit jman whatever in 2 days, and now I'm at 4 and most likely damn near advanced already.

Sparring. Is. Trash.
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Armaddict

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2016, 05:08:36 PM »
I think you'd enjoy the game a lot more if you turned on brief skills.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Synthesis

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2016, 05:16:06 PM »
I think you'd enjoy the game a lot more if you turned on brief skills.

I never said I don't enjoy the game.

I do enjoy "not sucking," though, which most definitely limits my choices up until day 20.  You can tell whether you suck or not regardless of having skills brief on.

If I could "not suck" and chill in a clan, I'd much prefer to do it that way.  That's not how this shit works, though.

And bringing it back to backstab...assuming it works how I think it works (which ADMITTEDLY is mostly speculation), very few PCs ever have maxed out its potential, and you can't tell whether something isn't working up to its potential if you've never, ever been there.
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I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
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I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
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Armaddict

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2016, 05:25:40 PM »
Well.  Assassins in sparring-heavy classes certainly seem to suck.

Until they get back out into their element where they get to use everything at their disposal instead of literally being thrown repeatedly into the warrior's best-case-scenario.

Altogether, what I mean is that all the terminology about journeyman and advanced makes people sound like they don't realize that they're pounding the shit out of what turns out to be a majority of the PC population and holding their own quite capably against most fauna they'd run into.  Once you hit the point you're doing that well, when out of the element that you're supposed to excel in, griping about sparring is kind of a moot point.  My analogy is a motorcycle racer hopping into a nascar training course and calling their course shit and their car shit even though you'll eventually be going back to motorcycle racing with some knowledge of the race tracks ahead.

I still stand by that assassins are a-okay and even pretty awesome, but I'm not against improvements to backstab being made.  I just don't stand by the 'this class is weak' arguments, ever, because I've made every class in this game aside from merchant into a killing machine at some point or another.  Whenever I hear 'this class is weak', all I hear is 'I wish I was another class', in which case I say you should probably play the other class.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Backstab
« Reply #112 on: August 24, 2016, 05:35:35 PM »
I too think assassins are fine the way they are.

That's kind of the whole point.  I'm arguing against changes, because I think the class is fine, and the backstab skill is just as dangerous as it's supposed to be, given a particular level of overall skill.

Assassins in sparring clans suck -at first- because they start with crazy-low base defense, so they get rekt, even compared to rangers, who ostensibly have the same crippling handicap (lack of parry).  This lack of base D kind of slows their early progression until their base D gets high enough for them to stand and swing for a while, thereby generating the fails needed to actually increase weapon and style skills.  Over time, though, their base D gets high enough.  They're definitely 4 or 5 days behind the curve.

This is another reason why critter-grinding is even better for assassins and rangers:  there are plenty of critters out there that are a solid A+ for noob grinding that pose absolutely no danger to you unless you are trapped in a room with them.  There is NO REASON why it should be better for my assassin to climb up and antagonize roof snakes than to spar in the Byn.  Currently, it is (my last assassin actually branched parry fighting a fucking roof snake...I have never branched parry in the Byn, ever).
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Armaddict

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #113 on: August 24, 2016, 05:44:49 PM »
Ah.  My bad, through this meandering I got the impression you were calling assassins too weak.

After a brief discussion with Smoky (who hasn't played in ages), I wanted to point something out about backstab.

Yes, low strength master backstab may only do 40-60hp of damage. (Only.  Heh.  Strength snobs.)  But I've yet to ever have a scenario in the game, against intelligent players, where someone took that kind of damage in less than 3 seconds and didn't start immediately trying to get the fuck out.  This has been put into the light, in this thread, of being a weakness.  "They get to run away."  However...much like the sparring ring is the best-case-scenario for a warrior, a one on one matchup against someone who no longer wants the fight is the best-case-scenario for an assassin.  They get the fuck out.  And you hunt them.  You've a myriad of tools at your disposal to keep their escape temporary.  You've everything you need to make sure that they are either still vulnerable to you, or at the mercy of something else in the game.  Sure, sometimes they get away.  But that happens to pretty much every class in the game in their best case scenario.  It's arguably warriors who have the easiest time 'locking' someone into their best-case-scenario.  Even rangers, in open desert, can have an extremely hard time keeping someone pinned down where they want them.

I think that's why i view this differently than some of you.  When I play assassins, I PLAN on having to hunt them a little bit, unless I've previously set things up to prevent that from happening.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Backstab
« Reply #114 on: August 24, 2016, 05:55:27 PM »
Yeah.  Well.  I think some people are enthralled by the possibility of being able to nail someone dead right in the middle of the Gaj and prance out while slapping the NPC soldier on the ass.

That ain't gonna happen unless you're a serious badass, and you get lucky.  It is possible, because someone's done it to me, but I've never instagibbed anyone that wasn't either subdued or already seriously injured (RIP subdue-backstab).

So, basically, banish that thought.  And I think that's -fine-.  I'm not comfortable with a 0-karma class having reliable instagib powers, whether it's at 20 days played or 100 days played.

If you can't arrange a scenario where you've stacked the deck in your favor, then DON'T ATTEMPT THE PK.  It's really that simple.  Have some damn patience, people.
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I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
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I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Backstab
« Reply #115 on: August 24, 2016, 05:58:03 PM »
thank you, both of you.

you said what i wanted to say. and was saying, less effectively.

backstab can one hit kill. it's not meant to always do it. that's why you set the fight up to be in your favor to begin with. you get them trapped, helpless, knock them over, prep poisons beforehand.

assassins are kind of like the batman who kills. you are supposed to take all this time to prepare the fight ahead of time and foresee every scenario so you can counter it. that's the point of assassins.
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Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Re: Backstab
« Reply #116 on: August 24, 2016, 06:06:03 PM »
But the point is that it's generally more effective to just forgo the backstab entirely, prepare well, and then straight up 'kill' or 'bash' someone.


evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Backstab
« Reply #117 on: August 24, 2016, 06:14:41 PM »
i don't know, getting an instant 40-60 damage and then a free shot afterwards with the chance to drop a poison proc instantly?

yeah.

backstab is fine.

if you prefer not to use it, don't use it.

every time it was ever used against me by another player, it ended with me dead because it simply took too much hp from me in one shot for me to get away from.
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Doublepalli

  • Posts: 376
Re: Backstab
« Reply #118 on: August 24, 2016, 06:17:26 PM »
Speaking from experience, str does factor alot into assassins -combat-, but they still have a myriad of skills. Now, a short while back I had a maxed warrior who had branched advanced weapons, and he trained assassins. An assassin - with adequate training, can do some fucking HURTING in a fight, and that's NOT including poisons/backstab/stealth/throw. A well-trained assassin - I mean well-trained, bad-ass, can kill a warrior as easy as breathing. So no, assassins don't need tweaks.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6456
Re: Backstab
« Reply #119 on: August 24, 2016, 06:18:08 PM »
But the point is that it's generally more effective to just forgo the backstab entirely, prepare well, and then straight up 'kill' or 'bash' someone.



If you have bash, sure, that's a good thing that might prevent them from running as long as you've gotten it to where you can succeed at it every time they stand up.

If you use kill, you're doing less opening damage in exchange for lower delay, and altogether creating an atmosphere more likely to be 'comfortable' for someone to stick around in.  Hence what I said.  The beauty of the backstab opening is that it rarely results in a straight up fight afterwards.  It usually results in you hunting the person, not in you being vulnerable while delayed.

So I completely disagree with the idea that it's in a useless spot.  I think you're just expecting the flawless kill a lot and not planning ahead to the fact that you're a city killer.  You will move about the city, or you'll manipulate things in the city that make running either impossible or useless.  I've had backstab used to put me into the scrambling for my life scenario plenty of times.  I've used it to put others into that same predicament.  But again, in almost no scenario is the assassin actually 'vulnerable' for using a high-skilled backstab.  Even uber warriors of doom tend to break and run when they take 60-75% of their health in damage at once, and the moment that you run you're actually vulnerable to a second backstab from a relentless hunter.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Re: Backstab
« Reply #120 on: August 24, 2016, 06:18:28 PM »
A good assassin will be doing about that much damage in a round if not more. And they wont deal with the absurd backstab delay before being able to perform another action.

In most cases it's straight up just better to 'kill' someone than backstab them with a skilled up assassin. Sure, you'll probably be able to kill them either way if you prepare properly, but if you start off with a backstab and they manage to survive it they will be long gone by the time you can throw out another attack, chase them, or do anything at all.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6456
Re: Backstab
« Reply #121 on: August 24, 2016, 06:21:02 PM »
Quote
they manage to survive it they will be long gone by the time you can throw out another attack, chase them, or do anything at all.

If you're talking about chasing them high on their heels, you're doing it wrong.  There is very little escape from an assassin unless they <insert escapes here that I won't share>.  Well played, well-skilled assassins are the boogeyman who can show up for another backstab anytime they want to.  Playing them like a warrior does nothing but make them an underwhelming warrior.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Re: Backstab
« Reply #122 on: August 24, 2016, 06:22:00 PM »
 ::)

Large Hero

  • Posts: 597
Re: Backstab
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2016, 06:25:04 PM »
Quote
they manage to survive it they will be long gone by the time you can throw out another attack, chase them, or do anything at all.

If you're talking about chasing them high on their heels, you're doing it wrong.  There is very little escape from an assassin unless they <insert escapes here that I won't share>.  Well played, well-skilled assassins are the boogeyman who can show up for another backstab anytime they want to.  Playing them like a warrior does nothing but make them an underwhelming warrior.

e;eat tablet;e;n;n;e;n;hide;<wait>;quit
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 6456
Re: Backstab
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2016, 06:33:09 PM »
::)

And I don't mean to pick on you.  Just...responding to the things that come up.  But I should sum up that this is my stance on a lot of class-discussion.

We tend to compare all the classes to other classes in terms of being able to do things.  But that kind of defeats the purpose of classes to me in the first place.  We make them do distinctly different things so that even with the same goal, they have an entirely different method they have to use.  A burglar wanting someone dead is an incredibly different story being told than a ranger wanting someone dead.  One -is- easier than the other, but neither are actually disadvantaged from doing so.  The method is just harder to pull off, as it should be, because one's role is leaning further away from that sort of objective.

In terms of backstab itself, I don't think the skill is lacking, at all, so much as it's kind of being tossed into a more direct-fight mentality where it certainly shines far less.  But I really want to meet the player who gets backstabbed for anything greather than 30 hitpoints and sees it and goes 'HA!  They used backstab!  What a noob, I win!'

Quote
e;eat tablet;e;n;n;e;n;hide;<wait>;quit

watch <person>;backstab <person>;e;hunt;n;hunt;n;hunt;e;hunt;n;backstab <person>.

In the case you haven't been watching people much: scan
In the case they are standing still waiting to quit: wish all I've hunted this person to this room and am now searching it methodically.
In the case they succeed in quitting: player complaint: I think this person logged out specifically to avoid having to sleep their health back after I tried to kill them, can you investigate?
In the case they keep running: hunt;hunt;hunt;emote smirks at the very evident blood trail
In the case you have real poisons: All of the above becomes unnecessary because tablets either don't exist or are a death sentence themselves.
In the case you are patient: think I'll try again at this other place where I've been watching them hang out.
In the case you play an assassin: think Ha, I knew I'd find them here.  They've fallen into my trap.

The above scenario you've pointed out is not a viable escape from an assassin.  That works on rangers, not so much someone who isn't afraid of crimcode.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger