Author Topic: Backstab  (Read 33724 times)

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2016, 05:45:24 PM »
Warrior Slipknife: sneak/hide in and kill with poisoned weapons. Far superior combat after the drop (even using trained backstab!)

Assassin/Anything: train harder dude, also buff up on your meta code knowledge.

The choice seems simple.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Backstab
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2016, 05:47:07 PM »
meta/code knowledge can be seen as ic knowledge of tactics.

"i can go in there RIGHT NOW and try to get this one big hit, or i can set him up. i can harry him with a couple knives, maybe catch him with some poison, then go in for the kill like a SMART PERSON WOULD."

or i can bitch on the forums that backstab isn't powerful enough and then go "uh huh" when all this stuff is thrown in my face about how a proper hit is supposed to go.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Dunetrade55

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2016, 05:54:37 PM »
Cabbage, I respect Reiloth as a player, and a person, and I find your ignorant tone completely dismissive of the point he's trying to make, I do not appreciate it. I bet any PC he has had could murder yours, then teabag it, an inform you that the logical course of action is to "git gud skrub". If you have a point, make it, don't just flounder about sputtering like you have a mixture of turrets, epilepsy, and some kind of mood disorder. And he could likely do it with backstab.
I'm asking for evidence, not telling you all to fuck off.

No, I'm telling you to fuck off, now, because you're being a little bitch.

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Backstab
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2016, 06:04:12 PM »
it only became ignorant when i got a smarmy "uh huh" in response.

you also know nothing about me as a player. don't make judgements about what i am capable of as a player with a pc. you might be surprised.


my point, quite simply, is this: backstab is not meant to be an instant kill. it can be underwhelming like EVERY SKILL IN THE GAME, and that is why you have other abilities to compensate for it.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Armaddict

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2016, 06:23:35 PM »
Again.  I just want to reiterate that I'm really not adverse to fleshing out/development of skills as a whole.  I'm not trying to stand on the other side of the line from the OP in this particular case.

I just want to note that this is far less of a problem than its being made to sound.  I've no doubt in Reiloth's abilities to play assassins, that's not my intent.  I just think that the way it works is actually kind of conducive to the amount of thought that goes into an assassin's method of killing is all.  I don't want them going into combat completely confident in their ability to take on anything.  Even a maxxed assassin should have very real concerns about coming out of position to deliver their blow; they're designed for fighting in the city, and the city is a pretty tricky place to fight.  If you're really really wary of having a long delay after wards, I'm guessing you didn't use your other skills to investigate beforehand, or to set up the situation to avoid having to worry.  I don't think assassins are made for 'surprise!  Someone attacked you!' combat unless they're the surprise.  I don't think they're made to dominate every alley fight.  I think they stalk, they hunt, they kill a target, not a random event.  However, a highly skilled assassin still doesn't have to worry too often about the latter.

As far as running?  Sure.  They run.  If you engage them in the open street and expect them not to run, I'd have expected you to plan better.  You've other skills that make running away less viable.  A lot of them, in fact.

As far as poisons and tablets?  That's why there was another thread made about it.  The 'eat tablet and run' spam is less about the run, and more about the current state of poisons.  It's not backstab's problem that we've made most poisons easily circumvented.  I don't think there's a problem with backstab in its current form as far as fulfilling its purpose, which is a surprise spike of damage to initiate a fight that you're hoping to end quickly.  If you're not looking to end it quickly, that is when the after-delay becomes an issue.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Backstab
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2016, 07:12:00 PM »
thank you armaddict.

you said it almost as good as a cabbage could.



backstab is not your kingmaker. it is a skill to be used in conjunction with your other skills.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Large Hero

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2016, 07:33:41 PM »
thank you armaddict.
backstab is not your kingmaker. it is a skill to be used in conjunction with your other skills.

Several people are making the point that the skill is not used.
It is said that things coming in through the gate can never be your own treasures. What is gained from external circumstances will perish in the end.
- the Mumonkan

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2016, 07:34:43 PM »
thank you armaddict.
backstab is not your kingmaker. it is a skill to be used in conjunction with your other skills.

Several people are making the point that the skill is not used.

Correct. While not a kingmaker, it is as defining a trait/skill as 'bash' is to Warrior, or actually more accurately Archery is to Ranger.

I would take Archery over Backstab every day of the week.

*Ranged delivery of poisons.
*Far less delay than Backstab
*Ability to quickly move or hide after shooting.
*Incredible damage from a distance (OHK or Near OHK depending on the bow/strength).

Just out of curiosity evilcabbage -- Are you basing your posts purely on conjecture or actual experience with Assassin/backstab?
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

evilcabbage

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2016, 08:23:40 PM »
actual experience, both using and having it used against me.

especially against. it has been extremely deadly in every instance it has been used on me, and i do not believe i have ever gotten away - because of the aforementioned situations

a) i was in no position to run because i was knocked over,
b) i was in a closed room with no escape, or
c) a mega high strength pc used it on me.

i've had it drilled into me about three or four times, and option C only happened a grand total of - one time.

options a and b happened the other times.

i've been playing the game for almost seven years, and you don't think i've faced off with a master assassin backstab at least three times? come on, reiloth. backstab isn't the end-all be-all of an assassin, it's one skill. assassins poison, throw, and backstab, are as defining as a warriors kick, bash and disarm. they are the three skills that define the killing power of that class.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2016, 08:28:02 PM »
I'm not asking if you know what the receiving end of a good backstab from a high strength Assassin looks like. I'm asking if you've used the skill yourself. Because that's mostly what i'm talking about.

As Yam mentioned, the binary nature of Backstab itself doesn't make a OHK even enjoyable for an Assassin or the victim. It's kind of a lame skill even if it works at 100% efficacy.

>backstab person
>You kill the person and they see a mantis head.

>w

Like many binary skills in the game, i'm suggesting some more grey areas for a skill that has pretty much no nuance.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

path

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2016, 09:00:31 PM »
I completely love the concept for variations in the backstab outcome. It's a skill as old as Armageddon herself and we've always known it needed some love, but I've never heard such a good solution for it. It's hard to discuss without considering the imbalance in the current stealth guilds though. I'd really like to see something done for the pickpocket and burglar guilds first.
Do you kill your sparring partners once they are useless to you, so that you are king?

evilcabbage

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2016, 10:06:58 PM »
if you read my posts previous i agreed with your different versions of backstab.

so.

what are you asking me? yes i have played assassins. yes i have used backstab. no i personally do not like it. i never have liked the assassin guild.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2016, 10:21:58 PM »
Cool.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

TFort

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2016, 11:51:01 PM »
I don't think the problem is so much with backstab as it is with the assassin guild.

Sneak/hide and locked rooms are OP. But you don't need backstab in those situation, you just need great combat skills. However, assassins are generally piss poor fighters almost all their lives. Warrior/slipknife, Ranger/slipknife, ranger/rogue will do it better and have more fun getting to that point.

What full Assassins should excel at attacking targets that are otherwise hard to get into an apartment. Therefore, instead of making  backstab just damage, how about depending on the mastery it gets other bonuses that aren't just damage related:

  • You will attempt to cutoff opponents that you've back-stabbed for a short period of time (flee skill will increase your chances to get away).
  • You are cloaked, hiding your mdesc for a short period of time (vs watch skill)
  • The delay should be shortened exponentially based on your mastery

I am okay with backstab not being a OHK, but I'm not okay with other guilds with the right sub-guilds being more enjoyable to play while at the same time being superior killers in most situations.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 12:07:49 AM by TFort »

Yam

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2016, 11:02:31 AM »
I don't think the problem is so much with backstab as it is with the assassin guild.

Sneak/hide and locked rooms are OP. But you don't need backstab in those situation, you just need great combat skills. However, assassins are generally piss poor fighters almost all their lives. Warrior/slipknife, Ranger/slipknife, ranger/rogue will do it better and have more fun getting to that point.

What full Assassins should excel at attacking targets that are otherwise hard to get into an apartment. Therefore, instead of making  backstab just damage, how about depending on the mastery it gets other bonuses that aren't just damage related:

  • You will attempt to cutoff opponents that you've back-stabbed for a short period of time (flee skill will increase your chances to get away).
  • You are cloaked, hiding your mdesc for a short period of time (vs watch skill)
  • The delay should be shortened exponentially based on your mastery

I am okay with backstab not being a OHK, but I'm not okay with other guilds with the right sub-guilds being more enjoyable to play while at the same time being superior killers in most situations.

Completely agree with this. I once played a fairly beefy assassin but I would not again. Of the signature skills, trap and backstab, one was removed and the other is pretty much useless against the flee command.

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2016, 11:46:28 AM »
Agreed, well phrased T.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

Synthesis

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2016, 12:05:35 PM »
Meh, I don't think many assassins ever reach their full combat potential, because very few of them go out and fight the critters that let you -get- to that point, not to mention doing it frequently enough to matter.  (Although...there is a critter in 'nak that will let you grind up to at least advanced dual wield...you'll just look kind of special doing it.) I've personally only had an assassin PC survive to branch parry two or three times, and I doubt they ever guild-maxed it.  All the times, the PC spent an inordinate amount of time in the Byn getting nowhere, then finally branched after a couple days' played worth of critter grinding.  Sparring is trash, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.  The Staff know about it.  Until they do something about it, you can either embrace the suck or embrace the critter grind.
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Delirium

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2016, 12:22:09 PM »
False, sparring is the best way if you have the right partners and technique. I got a ranger near max (including a master weapon skill) in 20 days - not including the weapon skill, about 5-6 days. All it requires is dedication to training, you don't have to go overboard. Granted, I know the code very well and I normally don't have the patience to train like that, but it's absolutely possible. Critters are the way to go if you don't have a reliable group to train with or if you're still in that beginning curve. But if you want to reach the real heights you have to find a partner.

All that said, combat training sucks and assassins are definitely noticeably weaker than the other classes. I haven't played a max assassin, but now I'm tempted to try it just to see. The problem is, it's hard to come up with a rich concept that I'll be able to execute and build on without becoming assassin/hunter #837421.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 12:24:27 PM by Delirium »
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Synthesis

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2016, 12:53:10 PM »
False, sparring is the best way if you have the right partners and technique. I got a ranger near max (including a master weapon skill) in 20 days - not including the weapon skill, about 5-6 days. All it requires is dedication to training, you don't have to go overboard. Granted, I know the code very well and I normally don't have the patience to train like that, but it's absolutely possible. Critters are the way to go if you don't have a reliable group to train with or if you're still in that beginning curve. But if you want to reach the real heights you have to find a partner.

All that said, combat training sucks and assassins are definitely noticeably weaker than the other classes. I haven't played a max assassin, but now I'm tempted to try it just to see. The problem is, it's hard to come up with a rich concept that I'll be able to execute and build on without becoming assassin/hunter #837421.

Nope. Nope. Nope.  But, I'm not going to argue with you about it here.  Don't listen to Delirium here, folks.  Her experience (which I have serious doubts about) is not the norm.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Delirium

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2016, 12:59:41 PM »
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Yam

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2016, 01:00:58 PM »
Synthesis all Dunning-Kruger over here about his twink power level.

nauta

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2016, 01:02:57 PM »
Re: Delirium and Syntheses)

In the last year or two, two changes in particular affect this discussion -- I've managed to get an Assassin up to pretty top shop in about ten days played (with parry).

1. New smaller creatures all over the place around Allanak (rats, vultures, scorpions, chalton).

2. Recent changes to sparring code.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Synthesis

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2016, 01:48:47 PM »
Re: Delirium and Syntheses)

In the last year or two, two changes in particular affect this discussion -- I've managed to get an Assassin up to pretty top shop in about ten days played (with parry).

1. New smaller creatures all over the place around Allanak (rats, vultures, scorpions, chalton).

2. Recent changes to sparring code.


1.  Like I said already, there is a critter in the city that will let you grind your dual-wield to at least (advanced).

2.  What recent changes? [citation needed]

Anyway, this is all sort of a derail, but (whether it's true or not), I think overall combat ability plays into backstab effectiveness, so it's at least partially relevant?  At this point, I don't really care.  People are going to believe what they're going to believe, and there's very little you can do to change their minds.

And no, sparring isn't -always- trash.  If you have someone in your clan who already has insanely high base defense, and an outstanding agility stat, and they're willing to do nothing except act like a critter for you to grind on, then yes, sparring will work just like critter grinding.  But that initial PC that you're grinding on? They probably had to critter grind to get to the point where they're a useful sparring buddy, so the general principal is the same, it's merely a step removed.  If you take two noob warriors, rangers, assassins, whatever, and just have them spar each other and nothing else, they'll reach a stochastically-insurmountable plateau, unless you have godlike patience.

Unless there's been some magical change to sparring in the last 6 months that I haven't played.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Armaddict

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2016, 01:59:25 PM »
I would say that the main thing I'd personally condone for more immediate attention out of this thread is that backstab should probably be far less strength-affected.

Let the double-attack of doom after the backstab be where the dwarf assassin's damage comes from, not the backstab itself.

That way, if the rest of these ideas come to fruition or other modifications are made, I won't be griping about how we made it completely overdone (if we implemented this with huge damage from strength still, I'd be pretty baffled as to how you could call it a good idea).
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Yam

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2016, 02:00:08 PM »
Re: Delirium and Syntheses)

In the last year or two, two changes in particular affect this discussion -- I've managed to get an Assassin up to pretty top shop in about ten days played (with parry).

1. New smaller creatures all over the place around Allanak (rats, vultures, scorpions, chalton).

2. Recent changes to sparring code.


2.  What recent changes? [citation needed]

Unless there's been some magical change to sparring in the last 6 months that I haven't played.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51282.msg947381.html#msg947381

And if you go deeper into Nergal's post history you'll see he made some changes to sparring. I was extremely skeptical at first but it seems like sparring is far more viable than it was in the past.