Author Topic: Backstab  (Read 33788 times)

Dar

  • Posts: 1860
Re: Backstab
« Reply #175 on: August 27, 2016, 04:41:16 PM »
While the delay varies with all those weird ticks that the MUD counts time with, but in some situations a backstab delay can last as long as 14 seconds. That's 14 seconds of being unable to flee, change weapons, draw new ones if disarmed, hide/leave after OHK. So let's say you did OHK someone. You're still standing there for 14 seconds, probably parrying blows of the militia that ran into the room if you got wanted. Even if your original victim has died on the very first round.  It's not 'always' this long. Again, the mud counts time in ticks, not actual time. But that's the longest one I've ever had and learned to always assume it'll be this long.


Please, dont think that I'm complaining. I find backstab to be perfectly fine. I'm just making sure people have some information to operate with in their discussion, instead of talking blind.  

nauta

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #176 on: August 27, 2016, 04:51:07 PM »
While the delay varies with all those weird ticks that the MUD counts time with, but in some situations a backstab delay can last as long as 14 seconds. That's 14 seconds of being unable to flee, change weapons, draw new ones if disarmed, hide/leave after OHK. So let's say you did OHK someone. You're still standing there for 14 seconds, probably parrying blows of the militia that ran into the room if you got wanted. Even if your original victim has died on the very first round.  It's not 'always' this long. Again, the mud counts time in ticks, not actual time. But that's the longest one I've ever had and learned to always assume it'll be this long.


Please, dont think that I'm complaining. I find backstab to be perfectly fine. I'm just making sure people have some information to operate with in their discussion, instead of talking blind.  

Also to add to this (in case it isn't clear):

Even during the 'delay' you will continue to fight and even take advantage of the free attack on a flee (if the opponent flees).  So you aren't completely vulnerable.

There's also a lag at the beginning too, before you backstab.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Backstab
« Reply #177 on: September 11, 2016, 01:10:57 PM »
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.

It's not tinfoil hats.

Riev is sitting at 10 days played with jman whatever.

I hit jman whatever in 2 days, and now I'm at 4 and most likely damn near advanced already.

Sparring. Is. Trash.

Weapon skill to (advanced) in 5 days 3 hours (1 RL month...aged 2 months 157 days in-game).  

Nothing but starting-location skill bump.  

Good wisdom.

Critter grind.

Sparring.  Is.  Trash.

Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 01:25:36 PM by Synthesis »
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Narf

  • Posts: 1175
Re: Backstab
« Reply #178 on: September 11, 2016, 01:26:04 PM »
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.

It's not tinfoil hats.

Riev is sitting at 10 days played with jman whatever.

I hit jman whatever in 2 days, and now I'm at 4 and most likely damn near advanced already.

Sparring. Is. Trash.

Weapon skill to (advanced) in 5 days 3 hours. 

Nothing but starting-location skill bump. 

Good wisdom.

Critter grind.

Sparring.  Is.  Trash.

Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing.  I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.

To be fair, the code changes make it possible to achieve advanced weapon skills from sparring, whereas before it was impossible regardless of playtime.

So progress.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Backstab
« Reply #179 on: September 11, 2016, 01:42:04 PM »
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.

It's not tinfoil hats.

Riev is sitting at 10 days played with jman whatever.

I hit jman whatever in 2 days, and now I'm at 4 and most likely damn near advanced already.

Sparring. Is. Trash.

Weapon skill to (advanced) in 5 days 3 hours. 

Nothing but starting-location skill bump. 

Good wisdom.

Critter grind.

Sparring.  Is.  Trash.

Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing.  I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.

To be fair, the code changes make it possible to achieve advanced weapon skills from sparring, whereas before it was impossible regardless of playtime.

So progress.

I've already stated previously that it's possible under exactly the right circumstances.  It was always possible under exactly the right circumstances, regardless of recent code changes.  "Exactly the right circumstances" is virtually impossible to achieve unless a) one party in the sparring match is defensively very skilled; b) both parties OOCly know exactly what needs to be done for the other person to train effectively; and c) the very skilled person is willing to stand there and be a sparring dummy.  I've only been in one clan, ever, where they got it right.

But...whatever.  Fine.  Somebody show me how they legitimately got from (apprentice) to (advanced) in a weapon skill in 5 days by sparring alone, and maybe I'll change my tune.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1860
Re: Backstab
« Reply #180 on: September 11, 2016, 02:18:49 PM »
Weapon skill to (advanced) in 5 days 3 hours (1 RL month...aged 2 months 157 days in-game).  



that's a point every 2.46 hours of gameplay?  If after a month like that, the chara goes one hit dead from some Mek out of nowhere, I'm either on a break for half a year, or playing a merchant.

Riev

  • Posts: 6022
Re: Backstab
« Reply #181 on: September 11, 2016, 02:49:38 PM »
Update:

Almost 20days played, still not journeyman.

Character is still effective, but its kind of disheartening to never see it move, knowing I COULD make it better but it wouldn't make sense for the character and be completely meta.
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yousuff

  • Posts: 253
Re: Backstab
« Reply #182 on: September 11, 2016, 02:53:08 PM »
Update:

Almost 20days played, still not journeyman.

Character is still effective, but its kind of disheartening to never see it move, knowing I COULD make it better but it wouldn't make sense for the character and be completely meta.

My feelings exactly. 12 days played, 3 weapon skills on apprentice, almost every other skill mastered. I know my character is useful, and I hate being meta in that I -want- to get those sweet skillups... Ugh, whole situation is frustrating
yousuck

Majikal

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #183 on: September 11, 2016, 04:13:18 PM »
Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.

We're totally playing the same game. Except I clicked multiplayer instead of solo campaign ;D
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Dar

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #184 on: September 11, 2016, 05:35:09 PM »
Regardless any of that. For theoretical discussion of the problems and burdens of skill practice. Synthesis examples stand firm and do have a point.

Fact of the matter is that after many years of gameplay, I really really really feel like I cant be fucked to skill grind again. Even if my particular fancy is that I'd like to have a skilled character. If this situation leads to a good player choosing not to play, or to prefer roles that do not need skills what so ever, then it is a problem. Because then we have people who arent really all that interested in quality of roleplay, but are willing to npc grind to get their powerz on, in positions which eventually become influencial enough to really need a good roleplayer there.

Lizzie

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #185 on: September 11, 2016, 06:03:19 PM »
Regardless any of that. For theoretical discussion of the problems and burdens of skill practice. Synthesis examples stand firm and do have a point.

Fact of the matter is that after many years of gameplay, I really really really feel like I cant be fucked to skill grind again. Even if my particular fancy is that I'd like to have a skilled character. If this situation leads to a good player choosing not to play, or to prefer roles that do not need skills what so ever, then it is a problem. Because then we have people who arent really all that interested in quality of roleplay, but are willing to npc grind to get their powerz on, in positions which eventually become influencial enough to really need a good roleplayer there.

If "quality of your roleplay" requires having your coded skills set to j-man or higher, then there's a bigger problem than just the skill grind. I have rarely - if ever - felt a need to express my character's existence through the sum of her coded skills. My meanest nastiest fugliest scariest character, a Red Fang, was a ranger with "above average" wisdom who, at 30 days played, still hadn't yet branched parry and had many of her "masterable" skills still at jman.

I'm not a great roleplayer but I know for damned sure that if you have to have your skills at jman or higher just in order to play your character's role, then you're doing something wrong.
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Large Hero

  • Posts: 597
Re: Backstab
« Reply #186 on: September 11, 2016, 06:18:44 PM »
Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.

We're totally playing the same game. Except I clicked multiplayer instead of solo campaign ;D

It is said that things coming in through the gate can never be your own treasures. What is gained from external circumstances will perish in the end.
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Riev

  • Posts: 6022
Re: Backstab
« Reply #187 on: September 11, 2016, 07:53:24 PM »
Regardless any of that. For theoretical discussion of the problems and burdens of skill practice. Synthesis examples stand firm and do have a point.

Fact of the matter is that after many years of gameplay, I really really really feel like I cant be fucked to skill grind again. Even if my particular fancy is that I'd like to have a skilled character. If this situation leads to a good player choosing not to play, or to prefer roles that do not need skills what so ever, then it is a problem. Because then we have people who arent really all that interested in quality of roleplay, but are willing to npc grind to get their powerz on, in positions which eventually become influencial enough to really need a good roleplayer there.

If "quality of your roleplay" requires having your coded skills set to j-man or higher, then there's a bigger problem than just the skill grind. I have rarely - if ever - felt a need to express my character's existence through the sum of her coded skills. My meanest nastiest fugliest scariest character, a Red Fang, was a ranger with "above average" wisdom who, at 30 days played, still hadn't yet branched parry and had many of her "masterable" skills still at jman.

I'm not a great roleplayer but I know for damned sure that if you have to have your skills at jman or higher just in order to play your character's role, then you're doing something wrong.


My RP isn't your RP, don't denigrate other people's RP, etc etc.

I've honestly had issues with roles numerous times, where I felt that a big aspect of their role is being proficient in combat, or subduing, or being a great archer, etc etc.

When it comes to combat, the idea that you never see these four skills raise is very disheartening. I don't care if YOU are in your ivory tower of RP, but I am playing a MUD where not having the right amount of skill leads to needless death.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Dar

  • Posts: 1860
Re: Backstab
« Reply #188 on: September 11, 2016, 08:02:07 PM »
Regardless any of that. For theoretical discussion of the problems and burdens of skill practice. Synthesis examples stand firm and do have a point.

Fact of the matter is that after many years of gameplay, I really really really feel like I cant be fucked to skill grind again. Even if my particular fancy is that I'd like to have a skilled character. If this situation leads to a good player choosing not to play, or to prefer roles that do not need skills what so ever, then it is a problem. Because then we have people who arent really all that interested in quality of roleplay, but are willing to npc grind to get their powerz on, in positions which eventually become influencial enough to really need a good roleplayer there.

If "quality of your roleplay" requires having your coded skills set to j-man or higher, then there's a bigger problem than just the skill grind. I have rarely - if ever - felt a need to express my character's existence through the sum of her coded skills. My meanest nastiest fugliest scariest character, a Red Fang, was a ranger with "above average" wisdom who, at 30 days played, still hadn't yet branched parry and had many of her "masterable" skills still at jman.

I'm not a great roleplayer but I know for damned sure that if you have to have your skills at jman or higher just in order to play your character's role, then you're doing something wrong.


Lizzie. Please. I was the player of the Red Fang, whom along with help of one other, created the Red Fang camp in the first place. You know that collection of tents in the Canyons of Waste before it became a coded camp? Yeaaaah. And truth be said that character was even less skilled then what you're describing. While at the same time being chased by SLK, Salarr, both templarates, and the gemmed. At the time when lifespan of a Red Fang was counted in hours, not days, or weeks. Playing that chara was an absolute blast. While your character was great. You were part of the tribe that had a ... few other members who were a 'lot' more skilled then you are codedly.

Fact of the matter is that a lot of roles involve having skills. It shouldnt be shameful to say that you need skills to perform a certain role. Please do not make it shameful. And if you prefer to do so, then do so in a thread about roleplaying, instead of a thread revolving around skill progression in the "code discussion" section.


PS: I actually dont even remember what this thread was about. I think neither the rp elitism, or how to progress skills was the original point? I should probably actually read the OP
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 08:05:55 PM by Dar »

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #189 on: September 12, 2016, 12:17:38 AM »
Do so at your own risk. The Code Guru is watchful.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Backstab
« Reply #190 on: September 12, 2016, 03:09:39 AM »
Critter-grinding isn't necessarily bad RP if your PC is a hunter.

Also, listen.  The critter-grind does not require vast amounts of time.  I got to (advanced) by spending maybe 2 hours per IC day doing it.  The rest of the time was just farting around doing miscellaneous shit.

If you think "critter grind" means you have to sit out in the desert and spamkill everything in sight, you're doing it wrong...until you reach the plateau where you literally have to spamkill everything in sight just to get a single failure.

You can spend more time doing social RP as a successful critter-grinder than you can as a Bynner, sadly.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
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Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Kryos

  • Posts: 929
Re: Backstab
« Reply #191 on: September 12, 2016, 06:21:22 AM »
As I have no interest in spreading the idea that one must max their skills to be meaningful/participate, I'm not going to offer details.  However, I will say that I'm reading a lot of things that are in practice, absolutely wrong here. 

I've had a weapon at advanced skill with 0 bumps on the pc in 2 days played.  It grew as fast as parry, or a little faster.  Good wisdom on that PC.

Post combat changes, without an explicit intent of achieving that level of weapon skill, just being in a clan and doing its thing(gains from 90% sparring), I had a pc decently into jman in 2 days played. Above average or good, I think wisdom without bringing up his logs.  The sparring changes are real, and work as described.

I'm not your typical arm player for a few reasons, but yeah.  When I am the am the one saying focus on character, not the skills so hard, you done fucked up.  When you roll a pc, start doing shit.  Don't hide in a corner and try to emerge max skills and be important. 

Though, I do wish staff would let us contribute to the guild changes upcoming:  paper and reality are usually vastly different.

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #192 on: September 12, 2016, 10:48:38 AM »
Though, I do wish staff would let us contribute to the guild changes upcoming:  paper and reality are usually vastly different.

What I think many game communities have, that Armageddon does not, is a 'testing community'. A group of players who the Staff trust to try out big changes, and give them real time feedback. While Staff are too players, so they have valuable insight from both sides of the pond, expanding that pond to a larger group (Say 10 people), trying out changes on the test port, and tweaking from there would probably help bridge the gap between paper and reality.

I don't think Staff have missed their mark often (Though one might mention Armageddon Reborn, despite it being my wish that still happened). The subguild changes have mostly been great, but the Magick subguilds leave much to be desired in most instances. It's a well-intentioned change that I think could have benefitted from some real-time playtesting, by the playerbase.

I've seen Staff much more willing to adjust on the fly now, more than ever before -- A good recent example would be the Banking changes. They were rolled out in one version, there was a discussion with the playerbase, and adjustments were made that presented a compromise. I think with large changes, like foundational changes such as sub-guilds and guilds, opinions will vary wildly, and actual playthrough knowledge will be scarce. The difference between a Warrior being OP compared to an Assassin, or the other way around, will be a very narrow margin. While this isn't a game about balance (It isn't a MMORPG with party gathering and question marks over people's heads), there needs to be a trade off of strengths and weaknesses that I imagine will be very difficult to get into the sweet spot.

I mean to be perfectly honest, the guild changes can either really turn people on, or really turn people off. So as the people who are going to play those choices, I think we have a good case in being involved with how they turn out. Elsewise, you might find people are so utterly turned off that they start playing another game (!!!). Changing foundation stones can really polarize people. ArmageddonMUD has mostly avoided this by not making these sorts of drastic changes for most of its existence -- But to change almost all of the core foundational 'classes/guilds/subguilds' within a year or two is radical to say the least. Exciting on one hand, and sort of intimidating and inducing skepticism on the other.

For all I know, though, Staff already has play-testers and hasn't said anything about it, and the play-testers haven't said anything about it because of a NDA (heh). So, could be a moot point.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 10:53:00 AM by Reiloth »
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

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Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Backstab
« Reply #193 on: September 12, 2016, 12:07:48 PM »
Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.

We're totally playing the same game. Except I clicked multiplayer instead of solo campaign ;D

Sorry...you got this in before I pointed out that you can spend more time with other PCs doing non-training RP as a critter-grinder than you can in a clan.  And let's be honest here:  while technically you are interacting with other PCs while sparring in the Byn...nobody really enjoys it.

Again...critter-grinding does not require you to be solo or require you to spend all your time doing it.  There are mobs within 10-15 leagues of Allanak that will let you critter-grind all the way up to (master) weapon skills.  If you -really- put your mind to it and get in a hurry, you can finish up your critter-grind training in 5-10 minutes, which leaves 80-85 minutes of the rest of the day to do whatever the hell else you want to do, with other PCs.
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Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Backstab
« Reply #194 on: September 12, 2016, 12:17:51 PM »
As I have no interest in spreading the idea that one must max their skills to be meaningful/participate, I'm not going to offer details.  However, I will say that I'm reading a lot of things that are in practice, absolutely wrong here.

Nobody is spreading that idea.  If you got that impression...well...it's wrong. 

I've had a weapon at advanced skill with 0 bumps on the pc in 2 days played.  It grew as fast as parry, or a little faster.  Good wisdom on that PC.

I never said my time was the fastest possible.  I said that time would be impossible in a clan, by sparring.  Did you achieve that time in a clan or by sparring only other PCs?  I highly doubt it.  If you did, there are only a few possibilities:  a) you were in a clan of elves; b) you were in a clan where one PC already "got gud" on the critter grind; or c) there were magick buffs involved.

Post combat changes, without an explicit intent of achieving that level of weapon skill, just being in a clan and doing its thing(gains from 90% sparring), I had a pc decently into jman in 2 days played. Above average or good, I think wisdom without bringing up his logs.  The sparring changes are real, and work as described.

Getting to jman in 2 days played, in a clan, is not a problem if you use "one weird trick!"  Low-mid jman is where the sparring plateau phase hits.  There is a vast world of difference between low-mid jman and master, both in terms of offense and defense.  I'm talking about getting to high advanced or master.  Again:  show me where anyone has gotten to high advanced or master solely by sparring other PCs.  Nobody in this thread has made that claim (except maybe Delirium? I'm not going to scroll back and check).

I'm not your typical arm player for a few reasons, but yeah.  When I am the am the one saying focus on character, not the skills so hard, you done fucked up.  When you roll a pc, start doing shit.  Don't hide in a corner and try to emerge max skills and be important. 

Again, nobody said skills were the most important thing.  In fact, if you critter-grind, you can spend A LOT LESS TIME worrying about your stupid skills, which frees you up to go and make deals and interact with people.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

path

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #195 on: September 12, 2016, 12:23:16 PM »
Synth, would you consider calling it something other than "critter-grind"?
Do you kill your sparring partners once they are useless to you, so that you are king?

Riev

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #196 on: September 12, 2016, 12:32:49 PM »
The issue Synth is talking about, is exactly what I struggle with on the majority of my combat characters. Whether its Byn, Legion, AoD, whatever... I'm not playing a hunter. I shouldn't have to go out and hunt to get the skill and technique I need, when I'm supposed to be a soldier.

However, NOBODY has become a master in a soldiering clan. Its not impossible, its just never been done. I don't like feeling like I need to go out and fight NPCs just to get the skills I'm looking for. You can say "go find a master" but we all know its a cop-out.
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Delirium

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #197 on: September 12, 2016, 12:34:28 PM »
Training by playing the solo-game is arguably more reliable (though sometimes all your favorite sparring partners have been skinned). Once you hit the plateau, getting those dodges becomes a time-consuming struggle.

Conversely, training by sparring requires that you have code-savvy partners who you share playtimes with, but if you are lucky enough to be in that situation, it is far superior, for several reasons. One of them being, of course, interaction, but even if you are fighting someone at a level equal to you, you end up see-sawing back and forth to learn from each other.

So the idea of it being pointless to learn from another PC is fallacious; and if they don't know how to spar correctly, then just teach them.

Obviously, that doesn't solve the problem of the empty clan, or the "master with a bunch of unskilled minions" scenario, but both of those are also solvable with some creativity and patience (and in the latter case, liberal use of the teach skill alongside lessons and sparring).

If you want to play the single-player skill-up, there's nothing technically wrong with that, and it's a fun break from having to play primarily social roles. But touting it as the only way to go is ignorant at best. Whether you hit master in 10 days played or 20, having fun while doing it is far more important than racing to the finish line in the least amount of time.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Riev

  • Posts: 6022
Re: Backstab
« Reply #198 on: September 12, 2016, 12:41:29 PM »
Conversely, training by sparring requires that you have code-savvy partners who you share playtimes with, but if you are lucky enough to be in that situation, it is far superior, for several reasons. One of them being, of course, interaction, but even if you are fighting someone at a level equal to you, you end up see-sawing back and forth to learn from each other.

Sparring, with code-savvy partners (of which I'm not one), who I share playtimes with, if I'm LUCKY to have that situation.


That's a lot of lineup for "this is also possible". When you can "do the same thing in five minutes and then go socialize", why would you choose a path that requires the fucking stars to align? I'm sorry, even as a veteran player, its just bullshit to ask that people reach some trifecta of perfection in a sparring partner, or else become a hunter to become a master swordsman. Simply put, its bullshit.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Delirium

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #199 on: September 12, 2016, 12:57:17 PM »
Synth's hyperbole about being able to indie train in 5-10 minutes is questionable at best. Especially at higher levels.

Would you rather be a no-name indie hunter who can kill bahamets and dies stupidly in obscurity, or would you rather build relationships and tell stories?

If you're having problems recruiting people or training them up to your level I feel bad for you son, but that's the role you chose and you can work on fixing at least part of that.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick