Author Topic: Backstab  (Read 33782 times)

Beethoven

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #150 on: August 25, 2016, 12:17:25 PM »
It's not offense vs. [creature type], it's slashing vs. [creature type], bludgeoning vs. [creature type], etc. That's my understanding.

Majikal

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #151 on: August 25, 2016, 02:52:00 PM »
Reiloth started this thread with some pretty cool ideas in mind. Reduction of the after delay timer on backstab, which makes the skill probably one of the most dangerous risk/reward skills in the game, I don't think anyone approves of the super-long after delay of backstab? Skimming I didn't see anyone who liked the delay. He also mentioned adding some new utility to the skill, which has the potential to be awesome, I would love it if an assassin was able to disable someone, making some kidnap/torture rp more viable than it currently is, I know there are code mechanics poison/spells that create effects similar or exactly like what I envision as a disable so maybe with the groundwork already in the game this is feasible.

This thread has sort of gone off the rails and become about how to "get gud" and when or when not to "rough circle."
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WanderingOoze

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #152 on: August 25, 2016, 03:04:48 PM »
It's always a good time for Ruff Circle.
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Armaddict

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #153 on: August 25, 2016, 03:15:01 PM »
I think the number of people who were anti-change to the skill was relatively small.

The only reason anything became remotely contentious was the statement being made or alluded to that this was a change needed because the current form was in essence either unusable or unwise...which are both kind of the same thing, really.  This made people who use or have been using it to good effect disagree...because ya know, you tend to disagree with things that are said that are contrary to what you are putting to use in practice.  If I went and told someone at a red light that their car didn't start, I'm sure they'd argue with me, too.

Altogether, once people started actually stating that they were plugging their ears and saying 'lalalala', the thread pretty much ended.  When people start telling you your experiences don't count because you've got more of them, that's pretty much a shit move as far as reasonable discourse of skill analyzation.

But yes.  If there was nothing else to change, taking the extra 4-5 seconds of delay off seems to be enough to alleviate most people's concern with the skill.  The other things are neat, but unnecessary, but if we want to make it easier for me to kill your PCs reliably with an already powerful ambush, that's cool as well.
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Dunetrade55

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #154 on: August 25, 2016, 04:08:22 PM »
The other things are neat, but unnecessary, but if we want to make it easier for me to kill your PCs reliably with an already powerful ambush, that's cool as well.

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Beethoven

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #155 on: August 25, 2016, 06:09:06 PM »
I like backstab because it makes playing an assassin feel very different from playing another kind of combatant. I was not aware that backstabbing, disengaging, and backstabbing again was forbidden by staff. I like to RP circling around an opponent while someone else fights them directly, with my assassin unleashing occasional but powerful critical strikes, drawing back, and then moving in again. If my opponents do not like that I always figured they could change tactics and strike at me directly. I guess if staff really said not to do that, I'll stop, but I always liked the 'assassiny' feel of doing that vs. just straight combat.

In addition, I like the OP's suggestions because they would contribute even more to the variety between assassins and other combatants. Assassins should have the dirtiest tricks of all the combat classes, IMO.

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #156 on: August 25, 2016, 06:38:52 PM »
I like backstab because it makes playing an assassin feel very different from playing another kind of combatant. I was not aware that backstabbing, disengaging, and backstabbing again was forbidden by staff. I like to RP circling around an opponent while someone else fights them directly, with my assassin unleashing occasional but powerful critical strikes, drawing back, and then moving in again. If my opponents do not like that I always figured they could change tactics and strike at me directly. I guess if staff really said not to do that, I'll stop, but I always liked the 'assassiny' feel of doing that vs. just straight combat.

In addition, I like the OP's suggestions because they would contribute even more to the variety between assassins and other combatants. Assassins should have the dirtiest tricks of all the combat classes, IMO.

And, as one of the classes with a skill removed/altered (Trap), it'd be cool to perhaps develop a sort of 'off-balance' move that temporarily bypasses parry. Something that gives an Assassin a temporary edge in combat, but a short-lived one (Sort of a blend of kick and anti-parry, if that makes sense).

I never think an Assassin should be toe to toe in combat against a Warrior -- They should just have means to evade combat once in it, and employ 'dirty tricks' that make them a pain in the ass to fight. Tricky, but not 'strong' if that makes sense. Their utility should always remain in the realm of stealth, and combat/conditions arranged on their terms.
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Armaddict

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #157 on: August 25, 2016, 06:46:22 PM »
<Derail, but in line with some things that have been discussed>

Have we ever gotten a definitive yes or no on whether or not trap would come back?  With some expansion on what it was, that'd be a great thing for assassins to have again.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Dunetrade55

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2016, 06:50:34 PM »
<Derail, but in line with some things that have been discussed>

Have we ever gotten a definitive yes or no on whether or not trap would come back?  With some expansion on what it was, that'd be a great thing for assassins to have again.

I think trip lines with swinging spiked logs, or other crude traps like a crossbow triggered to a door or a tree snare would be neat. Maybe not like OMG EXPLOSIONS but something you could dodge or that might miss or simply not function every time. Wisdom and agility rolls, not exactly lethal, can be poisoned. Might be a bit cumbersome to put together though.
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Inks

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #159 on: August 25, 2016, 08:26:24 PM »
Yeah assassins never got anything to replace it with :(
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Dresan

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #160 on: August 25, 2016, 09:05:59 PM »
Beethoven you are correct. However, its supposed to be a small bonus to offense, not something significant. But of course, this is just my understanding as well.
 
Again, one hit kills, not so great. But more utility opening up RP opportunities for everyone involved has the potential to have an enjoyable scene. This doesn't necessarily mean it will be easier to kill someone but certainly more fun trying.


As for trap...welll if rangers got flaming arrows then there is only one thing to give assassins.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 09:11:11 PM by Dresan »
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lostinspace

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #161 on: August 26, 2016, 12:04:28 AM »
I like backstab because it makes playing an assassin feel very different from playing another kind of combatant. I was not aware that backstabbing, disengaging, and backstabbing again was forbidden by staff. I like to RP circling around an opponent while someone else fights them directly, with my assassin unleashing occasional but powerful critical strikes, drawing back, and then moving in again. If my opponents do not like that I always figured they could change tactics and strike at me directly. I guess if staff really said not to do that, I'll stop, but I always liked the 'assassiny' feel of doing that vs. just straight combat.

In addition, I like the OP's suggestions because they would contribute even more to the variety between assassins and other combatants. Assassins should have the dirtiest tricks of all the combat classes, IMO.

And, as one of the classes with a skill removed/altered (Trap), it'd be cool to perhaps develop a sort of 'off-balance' move that temporarily bypasses parry. Something that gives an Assassin a temporary edge in combat, but a short-lived one (Sort of a blend of kick and anti-parry, if that makes sense).

I never think an Assassin should be toe to toe in combat against a Warrior -- They should just have means to evade combat once in it, and employ 'dirty tricks' that make them a pain in the ass to fight. Tricky, but not 'strong' if that makes sense. Their utility should always remain in the realm of stealth, and combat/conditions arranged on their terms.


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Supified

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #162 on: August 26, 2016, 09:50:23 AM »
Didn't read the whole thread.

The thing about backstab that the OP fails to account for is that the assassin gets to choose when to use it.  The whole point is that it is a surprise attack, so if you use it while the person is ready to be attacked (standing, armored, weapons out, full health).  Then it should be a dangerous and risky prospect.  Yes most fighting main classes are going to be able to outfight an assassin in 1v1 and therefore if you backstab one and succeed and have poisoned weapons, but can't do any damage after the backstab you choose a bad time to backstab.

Now if you are patient, plan your attack and hit them when they're really not ready (resting, weapons away, hurt or low on stam) You're not only going to do backstab damage, but your initial rounds of combat are probably going to be devastating as well, even a maxxed warrior is probably going to be in trouble from a resting position unarmed when being attacked by a fully armed assassin.   Sure then they can stand up and draw their weapons, but by then the delay is probably passed and you've done some significant damage to them, if not out right killed them. 

Best case scenario?  You hit them when there is more or less nothing they can do.

Backstab seems like a terrible skill, but only when taken out of context.  When put in context of planning your attack, hitting from stealth and taking advantage of a surprise attack, it is border op already.  Think about it, a stealth non-backstab attack done when someone is totally unprepared is already pretty devastating.

Training backstab is no fun to be sure, but that is in part to limit the number of people who can do it because it is kind of like steal in that there isn't a ton of in game reasonable ways you can avoid this if someone is prepared and patient enough.

I hate to give the it's probably best as it is, but to be honest?  I'd sooner see the skill nerfed and assassins reworked than buffed.

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #163 on: August 26, 2016, 11:56:12 AM »
Until you miss your Backstab and your opening attacks, and are basically sitting there like a wet willy for 10 seconds.

If you read the thread, we've been trying to come up with creative solutions to the 'Backstab even if successful at 100% leads to a OHK, which isn't fun for anyone'.

No one has said Backstab is broken.

Training Backstab is a whole other story. To become a Backstab Master, you must fail at backstabbing people! Said no Assassin in history.
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Jingo

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #164 on: August 26, 2016, 12:40:31 PM »
Until you miss your Backstab and your opening attacks, and are basically sitting there like a wet willy for 10 seconds.

If this happens at all, I think it's a bug. Perhaps some sort of timing error or something. The only reason something like this would be implemented, would be to prevent attackers from fleeing immediately after a backstab.
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Synthesis

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #165 on: August 26, 2016, 12:41:33 PM »
If you miss your backstab and your opening attacks, you probably shouldn't have been backstabbing that thing in the first place, dude.
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Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #166 on: August 26, 2016, 02:02:24 PM »
If you miss your backstab and your opening attacks, you probably shouldn't have been backstabbing that thing in the first place, dude.

How does one improve in Backstab then, Code Guru?
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

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Yam

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #167 on: August 26, 2016, 02:10:30 PM »
backstab turaal

Armaddict

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #168 on: August 26, 2016, 02:41:08 PM »
I'm a little surprised with how suddenly-comfortable a couple of you have gotten with snark just because someone is strongly positioned elsewhere than you.

However, I also think the 'Backstab is fine as is or isn't fine at all' argument has been driven into the dirt.  If someone reads the thread, they'll see plenty of arguments for and against the viability of backstab as a skill in its current state.

So instead, to kind of help things out, I'll ask for a a piece at a time:

Is it catastrophic for anyone if the backstab delay were to be reduced, even if it's not to the degree of kill?

-My position is that it's far from catastrophic for this particular piece of the idea to come to be.  My opinion is that it's high risk for a reason, to demonstrate that it is a maneuver that you use to achieve only the goal of what it does, which is grants a large spike of damage, hopefully to the point that they can't hide somewhere and heal without the risk taken of 'sleeping it off'.  If this latter mechanic were changed dynamically, the former would become obsolete.  I think it would fundamentally change the methods that make assassins truly effective, and thus kind of...allow people to not figure out that it's supposed to be used more situationally than consistently, much like any other non-warrior method of killing.  But I do not think that part of it would be terrible to modify, nor even entirely make situations different aside from establishing that emphasis; that seems to be the main purpose of the delay, is to make sure you know that you should be careful using it.

-I think I have this position purely because I did indeed die with it enough times to figure out some bad cases to use it.  It's not for going above your skill level on npc's; they don't run away, they'll just thwack you until they die, so before you use it on an npc, you have to be able to win the brawl anyway.  It's not for going against someone you're not sure you can beat who's tromping around with weapons out, because they're already expecting trouble and to capitalize on your exposure, even if this still happens rarely and often by accident in my experience.  Thus, part of it -is- the whole veteranhood thing...which I happen to be a fan of, but can understand that the current trend in game-thought is that everyone should be dying less.  I have about 50 characters that lasted less than 2 days (or some other similarly significant, but estimated number).

With me holding that position, the delay is the one part where I can feel pretty -good- about giving ground on it, albeit perhaps not to the degree of kill, but at least to make it -less- risky for those testing situations where it's good or bad to use.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Synthesis

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #169 on: August 26, 2016, 03:40:21 PM »
If you miss your backstab and your opening attacks, you probably shouldn't have been backstabbing that thing in the first place, dude.

How does one improve in Backstab then, Code Guru?

I thought we were talking about actual PK attempts, not training.

The two scenarios are completely different.
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Jingo

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #170 on: August 26, 2016, 08:03:25 PM »
I don't see why backstab should be much more of a risk than just kill.

Maybe the delay for backstab should be similar to the kill command?
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650Booger

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #171 on: August 27, 2016, 01:46:02 AM »
problem: one assassin has a hard time achieving a OHK with backstab.  
solution: multiple assassins.
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Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #172 on: August 27, 2016, 02:08:17 AM »
problem: one assassin has a hard time achieving a OHK with backstab.  
solution: multiple assassins.

Not really the point of the thread but sure.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

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Jingo

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #173 on: August 27, 2016, 04:23:19 PM »
I don't see why backstab should be much more of a risk than just kill.

Maybe the delay for backstab should be similar to the kill command?

But it is, isn't it? Sometimes there is an agonizing delay after using the kill command. So I'm wondering if it's particular to backstab and not just initiating combat. And for some reason we notice it for backstab more than we notice it for kill.
Now you're looking for the secret. But you won’t find it because of course, you're not really looking. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

Armaddict

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #174 on: August 27, 2016, 04:26:28 PM »
There is most definitely a longer delay for backstab.  I'm not certain if it's particularly longer for a failed one than a successful one (to be honest, I don't really measure the delays because as noted, I learned to not do it in particular situations, and with assassins not having other combat skills, there wasn't really any reason to 'queue something up' and see how long it took before it came through).

While I do not think this is particularly crippling for what I use backstab for, it is also, again, the easiest place to start making a shift that would perhaps improve it's accessibility to people who don't want to take the risk of experimenting (and losing characters in the process).
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger