Author Topic: Backstab  (Read 32861 times)

Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Re: Backstab
« Reply #125 on: August 24, 2016, 06:40:38 PM »
I don't think backstab in its current form should exist at all. I'm not bitching about the killing power of assassins in general. I'm bitching about the killing power of backstab - it's usually less useful than just straight up typing 'kill elf'. Any guild is capable of murdering the shit out of someone with the right preparation - I absolutely agree. However the thread is about reworking backstab into a skill with more utility than a binary high risk OHK.

I feel like I'm talking to bricks.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 06:42:25 PM by Yam »

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6428
Re: Backstab
« Reply #126 on: August 24, 2016, 06:44:31 PM »
Then stop speaking brick.

You spoke specifically about instances that I responded to, and have now backpedaled to a different point that I already agreed with, but have said that the reasoning of 'It's not viable' is not a good reason for it, because it -is- viable.  You've now disagreed with that, run into arguments as to why that's untrue, then fallen back to this point and called us bricks for responding to you.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Large Hero

  • Posts: 597
Re: Backstab
« Reply #127 on: August 24, 2016, 06:44:44 PM »
In the case you haven't been watching people much: scan
In the case they are standing still waiting to quit: wish all I've hunted this person to this room and am now searching it methodically.
In the case they succeed in quitting: player complaint: I think this person logged out specifically to avoid having to sleep their health back after I tried to kill them, can you investigate?

These aren't reliable ways to make someone dead.

Quote
In the case they keep running: hunt;hunt;hunt;emote smirks at the very evident blood trail

They can run to a clan compound, or indoors public place, or just keep spamwalking indefinitely until they can log out, or...

Quote
In the case you have real poisons: All of the above becomes unnecessary because tablets either don't exist or are a death sentence themselves.

If you have serious poisons you're probably better off just using the kill command, which is one of the points at issue here.

Quote
In the case you are patient: think I'll try again at this other place where I've been watching them hang out.
In the case you play an assassin: think Ha, I knew I'd find them here.  They've fallen into my trap.

Irrelevant
It is said that things coming in through the gate can never be your own treasures. What is gained from external circumstances will perish in the end.
- the Mumonkan

Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Re: Backstab
« Reply #128 on: August 24, 2016, 06:50:38 PM »
Then stop speaking brick.

You spoke specifically about instances that I responded to, and have now backpedaled to a different point that I already agreed with, but have said that the reasoning of 'It's not viable' is not a good reason for it, because it -is- viable.  You've now disagreed with that, run into arguments as to why that's untrue, then fallen back to this point and called us bricks for responding to you.

I never said backstab wasn't a viable way to kill people. I said it was less effective than just using the kill command.

You're setting up a straw man argument by saying that I think backstab isn't a viable way to kill people. It's a completely viable way to kill people, it's just not as effective as the other tools guild_assassin has (and shares with other guilds). It's also not very fun or interesting. It's basically a dice roll.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6428
Re: Backstab
« Reply #129 on: August 24, 2016, 07:10:26 PM »
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But the point is that it's generally more effective to just forgo the backstab entirely, prepare well, and then straight up 'kill' or 'bash' someone.

That is what you said that I responded to, Yam.  That is, through context, saying something is not really viable.  And I went into my whole speech about it.  That is not a strawman argument; a strawman is setting up an argument that was never made and fighting that argument.  I'm making a direct response to what you've said here.

Quote
Quote from: Armaddict on Today at 07:33:09 AM
In the case you haven't been watching people much: scan
In the case they are standing still waiting to quit: wish all I've hunted this person to this room and am now searching it methodically.
In the case they succeed in quitting: player complaint: I think this person logged out specifically to avoid having to sleep their health back after I tried to kill them, can you investigate?

These aren't reliable ways to make someone dead.

These are just as reliable as any other class in the game, particularly when it comes to you pointing out a mechanic that is blatantly discussed as ooc abuse.  This is a reliable way of pointing out the case used as an example would be a case where you can set things up to react realistically, or insure that staff is aware of that situation.  Bash, charge, and a buddy with subdue are the only things more reliable than this, as noted in a variety of other threads, they are also unreliable.  So pointing this out as a failure of this particular skill is not really a good argument to make.

Quote
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In the case they keep running: hunt;hunt;hunt;emote smirks at the very evident blood trail

They can run to a clan compound, or indoors public place, or just keep spamwalking indefinitely until they can log out, or...

Again, evading just long enough to log out and thus escape death is frowned upon, and always has been, and is actually one of the first staff-emails I have, is investigation of such an instance.  People can indeed run into clan compounds.  That happens with any guild using any of their opening moves.  Kill delay is long enough for someone to instantly flee and spam walk to safety as well.  So making this a problem with backstab is really your problem with delay in its entirety, not with a skill.  Same with public indoors places, though the assassin has the advantage of being able to continue to stalk at this point in relative safety.  Again, you seem to be equating this skill as the only one worth having the expectation of no escape; Every other class has to deal with people running away as well.  It mostly comes to planning and circumstance and luck, just like...ta-da!  Backstab.

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In the case you have real poisons: All of the above becomes unnecessary because tablets either don't exist or are a death sentence themselves.

If you have serious poisons you're probably better off just using the kill command, which is one of the points at issue here.

Untrue, due to normal hits having a good chance of landing, particularly if they're unarmed, but backstab having an almost no-fail probability of delivering poison.  If you land the backstab, the poison is pretty much landing, and when you're good at it, you're getting the two immediate attacks after anyway.  This being one of the points at issue here is part of the entire reason why I'm arguing with you; I agreed, long ago, that many skills, including backstab, could do with fleshing out and making more neato.  But the constant drone of 'This skill is useless' is entirely untrue, which is really what you're repeatedly bringing up despite your falling back to that same point we agreed on (we can change backstab), then reasserting the same thing (...because backstab doesn't work well.)

Quote
Quote
In the case you are patient: think I'll try again at this other place where I've been watching them hang out.
In the case you play an assassin: think Ha, I knew I'd find them here.  They've fallen into my trap.

Irrelevant

Not irrelevant, because it's pointing out that the scenarios you've given are pointedly ignoring the trademark of the assassin, which is planning and execution.  These are not random brawls you're getting into where you just -decide- to backstab someone for whatever reason.  In any case where you've done any sort of planning and looked ahead, you'll find things going your way a lot more of the time...again, much like every other class in the game.  Comparing assassin skills without implementing the gameplay that puts them to best use is directly trying to sway the data into the favor of 'warriors are better'.

If you want to play the warrior slipknife because you are more free to brawl, then play the warrior slipknife.  But don't assert that just because you don't like stalking, hunting, and playing the role, that the role, or its skills, is not functioning well.  I've been having plenty of success with it for a good long time, and you just aren't going to make much headway telling me that a multitude of years using these methods are untrue because you disagree.  I've seen the results, and I'm plenty pleased with them.

Again, I think more of the problem lies in the state of poisons in the game than this particular skill.  There is no reason to bar development on it, but there's no reason to try and convince everyone they shouldn't be using this, either.


Edit:  Meh, I suck at GDB functions.  Sue me.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 07:12:04 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Re: Backstab
« Reply #130 on: August 24, 2016, 07:27:25 PM »
It was a strawman argument. You claimed I said that backstab was not a viable way of killing people. This was not my argument. It was a much easier to refute argument. This is the very definition of a strawman.

Another strawman:

If you want to play the warrior slipknife because you are more free to brawl, then play the warrior slipknife.  But don't assert that just because you don't like stalking, hunting, and playing the role, that the role, or its skills, is not functioning well.

No one here has said they want to brawl with an assassin. No one has said they don't like stalking, hunting, etc.

I've been having plenty of success with it for a good long time, and you just aren't going to make much headway telling me that a multitude of years using these methods are untrue because you disagree.  I've seen the results, and I'm plenty pleased with them.

You tend to do this a lot in code threads and end up utterly derailing them with your Bill O'Reilly school of argument. It's starting to look like you're entering these discussions in bad faith in order to brag about how you can deal with all the legacy code. Instead of shoehorning that into every topic in code discussion, why don't you make your own thread for it?

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6428
Re: Backstab
« Reply #131 on: August 24, 2016, 07:51:47 PM »
Quote
It was a strawman argument. You claimed I said that backstab was not a viable way of killing people. This was not my argument. It was a much easier to refute argument. This is the very definition of a strawman.

Quote
That is what you said that I responded to, Yam.  That is, through context, saying something is not really viable.  And I went into my whole speech about it.  That is not a strawman argument; a strawman is setting up an argument that was never made and fighting that argument.  I'm making a direct response to what you've said here.

Quote
vi·a·ble
ˈvīəb(ə)l/
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.

When you essentially say that using a skill is secondary to using the default command, you are calling one more viable than the other.  This insistence that I'm somehow not responding to what you're saying is ridiculous.


Quote
No one here has said they want to brawl with an assassin. No one has said they don't like stalking, hunting, etc.

Sure, that's one.  You do, however, seem to be pushing towards this in all of your posts where you essentially accede the point that an assassin should be planning ahead of time, but if they don't and they use backstab instead of just getting into a straight up fight, they're less effective.  In essence, you're using situations to illustrate your point when they're convenient, but then receding back to the normal situation when someone calls you on it.  Yes.  Planning and preparation wins in either scenario, the same as any other class.  No, that same dependence does not make the skill more useless than any other skill in the same situation, such as bash, archery, or throw.  So in this case, I feel pretty justified in making this particular strawman until you stop using the case of a straight up brawl to point out why you don't like backstab.


Quote
You tend to do this a lot in code threads and end up utterly derailing them with your Bill O'Reilly school of argument. It's starting to look like you're entering these discussions in bad faith in order to brag about how you can deal with all the legacy code. Instead of shoehorning that into every topic in code discussion, why don't you make your own thread for it?

I'm sorry for playing the game a long time.  I'm sorry for using experience in discussions about the game to try and point out why I'm refuting you when you say things that I disagree with.  I'm sorry that you see it as bragging when I tell you that things tend to work out well when you modify play styles to acknowledge weaknesses and strengths of different classes, and that I know this because I've done it.

I'm unsure of what other thread I'd make to let you know that you're pigeonholing backstab into a place where it isn't.  "Yam doesn't want me posting in the other thread because what I say is based off of me playing a long time with several successful characters utilizing it, so here is my my opinion on backstab"?  No.  Wait, shit!  You're still going to take that as me saying I'm better than you because I've killed people with this skill.

I don't know what you're expecting, here.  I'm saying what you're putting forth is misleading and ignoring that this is pretty on par with things in the game altogether, and you're getting rabid with me over it.

Edited to add:  And if you're saying that it's viable, the same that I am, -why- do you keep leaping at me for my explanation of why I, too, think it is viable?  That's...why I'm saying that you're calling it not viable.  Because otherwise...we're agreeing, here.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 07:58:46 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #132 on: August 24, 2016, 08:26:19 PM »
Armaddict and Synthesis should have a code baby, and name it Backstab.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Re: Backstab
« Reply #133 on: August 24, 2016, 08:26:58 PM »
Necksnap.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1674
Re: Backstab
« Reply #134 on: August 24, 2016, 08:27:21 PM »
So couple things in this thread: First on grind.

If you are looking to survive raptors and scrabs, its gotten alot better. If you are looking to branch parry, well gotten better too but then again it is actually always been amazingly easy in clans.

However, if you are looking to be the very best, like no one's been before...yup there is a grind. I'm not sure what people are talking about, but the changes were specifically meant to make people competant faster, not really help make badasses. If you are the only badass in your clan, you will still have nice long wait before anyone catches up to you.  And why wouldn't it be this way?

Lets take a step back and think about it, whats the alternative? Everyone and their mothers hitting advanced with weapons and warrior brancing more often? I don't think people really want that. If you want to branch weapons, skill bumps is the fastest way, limited for 3 times a year. This is also going to change (worse/better) someday with guild changes.

As for whether or not clans are better than wildlife, I've gotten journeyman/advance with all weapons on a warrior with low wisdom in a clan with people that enjoy sparring and grinding up in less than an IC year. This was before before any sparring changes. Those people made logging in and grinding so much fun. In other clans, where sparring should take place regularly, I've just barely been able to hit journeyman with shield with several days play. Its a hit and miss thing in clans if you ask me, just depends who your clanmates are and what they are into doing.


As for assassin, I've mentioned before I think assassins should be more formidable standing toe to toe with warriors/rangers, the best combat class out of the box after warriors. Maybe even branching a weapon type. I like the ideas where backstab isn't about being a OHK move with alot of instant damage but instead just has reasonable damage which opens up the opportunity to kill your opponent outside a locked room.  Some ideas have already been stated but:

Some protection against 'look assassin' would indeed be awesome when you backstab someone. Because more assassination attempts in public places with people watching would indeed be cool.
Some protection against crime code, because half-giant soldier groups roaming around the city in abundance hurt. Maybe fights you start with backstab don't actually attract attention for a short while depending on mastery.

One hit KO backstab really isn't fun for anyone, so if it is ever change I would like to see it changed for something that allows more RP and more heart pumping action for both the victim and assassin.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 08:49:03 PM by Dresan »
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Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #135 on: August 24, 2016, 08:28:57 PM »
It was a strawman argument. You claimed I said that backstab was not a viable way of killing people. This was not my argument. It was a much easier to refute argument. This is the very definition of a strawman.

Another strawman:

If you want to play the warrior slipknife because you are more free to brawl, then play the warrior slipknife.  But don't assert that just because you don't like stalking, hunting, and playing the role, that the role, or its skills, is not functioning well.

No one here has said they want to brawl with an assassin. No one has said they don't like stalking, hunting, etc.

I've been having plenty of success with it for a good long time, and you just aren't going to make much headway telling me that a multitude of years using these methods are untrue because you disagree.  I've seen the results, and I'm plenty pleased with them.

You tend to do this a lot in code threads and end up utterly derailing them with your Bill O'Reilly school of argument. It's starting to look like you're entering these discussions in bad faith in order to brag about how you can deal with all the legacy code. Instead of shoehorning that into every topic in code discussion, why don't you make your own thread for it?

Basically this post. It seems like Armaddict and Synthesis wanna prove their legacy code knowledge, which is cool and fine, but there are other people basically saying they aren't going to play Assassin, because they can get backstab, sneak, hide, pick, poison, and throw on other guild/subguild combinations. I find that rather sad, but OK, I guess Assassin is cool.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #136 on: August 24, 2016, 08:44:01 PM »
So couple things in this thread: First on grind.

If you are looking to survive raptors and scrabs, its gotten alot better. If you are looking to branch parry, well gotten better too but then again it is actually always been amazingly easy in clans.

However, if you are looking to be the very best, like no one's been before...yup there is a grind. I'm not sure what people are talking about, but the changes were specifically meant to make people competant faster, not really help make badasses. If you are the only badass in your clan, you will still have nice long wait before anyone catches up to you.  And why wouldn't it be this way?

Lets take a step back and think about it, whats the alternative? Everyone and their mothers hitting advanced with weapons and warrior brancing more often? I don't think people really want that. If you want to branch weapons, skill bumps is the fastest way, limited for 3 times a year. This is also going to change (worse/better) someday with guild changes.

As for whether or not clans are better than wildlife, I've gotten journeyman/advance with all weapons on a warrior with low wisdom in a clan with people that enjoy sparring and grinding up in less than an IC year. This was before before any sparring changes. Those people made logging in and grinding so much fun. In other clans, where sparring should take place regularly, I've just barely been able to hit journeyman with shield with several days play. Its a hit and miss thing in clans if you ask me, just depends who your clanmates are and what they are into doing.


As for assassin, I've mentioned before I think assassins should be more formidable standing toe to toe with warriors/rangers, the best combat class out of the box after warriors. Maybe even branching a weapon type.  I like the ideas where backstab isn't about being a OHK move with alot of instant damage but instead just has reasonable damage which opens up the opportunity to kill your opponent outside a locked room.  Some ideas have already been stated but:

Some protection against 'look assassin' would indeed be awesome when you backstab someone. Because more assassination attempts in public places with people watching would indeed be cool.
Some protection against crime code, because half-giant soldier groups roaming around the city in abundance hurt. Maybe fights you start with backstab don't actually attract attention for a short while depending on mastery.

One hit KO backstab really isn't fun for anyone, so if it is ever change I would like to see it changed for something that allows more RP and more heart pumping action for both the victim and assassin.


Well put. I feel for some reason Armaddict and Synthesis (and others) think I and others are advocating for Backstab to OHK more. It couldn't be further from the truth. If you look in the OP, it states other debilitating effects Backstab could have besides a OHK, which should only be a final resort, a choice.

OHK isn't fun for the Assassin. It isn't fun for the Victim. So let's add more nuance. How do we do that? I guess we have to change stuff guys...
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

lostinspace

  • Posts: 817
Re: Backstab
« Reply #137 on: August 24, 2016, 08:48:51 PM »
It's been a while since I played someone with charge or any semblance of skill at bash, do they impose a delay when successful? Like, after you successfully charge someone do you have to wait 15 seconds to start attacking again?
3/21/16 Never Forget

nauta

  • Posts: 2335
Re: Backstab
« Reply #138 on: August 24, 2016, 08:53:12 PM »
It's been a while since I played someone with charge or any semblance of skill at bash, do they impose a delay when successful? Like, after you successfully charge someone do you have to wait 15 seconds to start attacking again?

According to experience and the help files: yes.

Quote
Delay:
   after (if success: opponent after)

That said, Help Backstab fails to tell you that there is a Delay After.  I'm adding that to the improving the help files thread as we speak.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Re: Backstab
« Reply #139 on: August 24, 2016, 08:55:21 PM »
IIRC bash gives both the basher and the bashee a delay, though the basher/bashee still autoattacks.

Backstab is a little fuckier. There's a very long delay where you can't use any commands, but you also don't get to take all of your autoattacks like you seem to be able to do with bash/kick/disarm.

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #140 on: August 24, 2016, 09:14:17 PM »
Also, though only tangentially related, it'd be nice if 'teach' were a more functional and useful command, and perhaps even a skill in and of itself. In relation to a skill like Backstab, or poison, the act of 'needing to fail' could be at least somewhat replaced by 'finding someone more experienced than me to teach me', which mirrors RL much closer.

While repairing instruments and fine art objects, for instance, I can and do experiment as I go. Figuring out how to sand things properly or chisel things properly on the go is fine, especially if i'm working on an already replaceable material. However, when I start dealing with incredibly toxic chemicals and stuff that can give me cancer...Yeah, usually time to look up the expert (my boss) and ask how to do it properly before I blow off my face.

Simultaneous to this, while RP'd learning and skill gains are a bit of a chore for Staff, I would hope that allowing this kind of behavior encourages RP rather than relying on skill grind (and therefore, lack of PC interaction in a meaningful way) which discourages meaningful RP.

Furthermore, that someone who is (master) in a skill can teach all walks of life, including people who are (advanced) and perhaps even people who are (master). Don't you think this would encourage a more supportive, RP centric environment? Even if someone needs to be pursued to deny teaching you, it creates an RP opportunity in and of itself, one that many novels and works of fiction and non-fiction are based on (The search for the mentor).
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 09:24:06 PM by Reiloth »
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6428
Re: Backstab
« Reply #141 on: August 24, 2016, 09:24:16 PM »
...I don't know where you got that impression.

I've given the disclaimer multiple times in the thread that I'm fine with skills being modified.  Sometimes, in other threads, I've cited other conditions I'd like to be fulfilled prior to that, but not in this one.

In this case, all that I said that you seem to have a problem with is that I'm saying that backstab is indeed a useful tool in a useful toolbox that is very assassin-y.  I'm not sure how this turned into 'You're just showing off code knowledge'.  Every example given has been me showing you other skills that are available to be used in its current form, and none of that is...archaic, or out of reach, or weird to use.  And the sideways comes when I think that you're kind of putting this skill, in particular, into a spotlight where you point out weaknesses that it has, but also shares with some other skills that you've cited as better alternatives.  The only situation that I agree with you is in the case of no planning, no preparation...yeah, if you're just jumping out at a dude that you fully expect to give you a hard time, you should probably not risk the critical strike.  But to say that that situation makes it a worthless skill is where I have this problem.  I'm not citing secrets in the game.  I'm not citing your newbishness.  I just said, over and over again...it's useful...when you're playing an assassin.

This isn't 'legacy code knowledge'.  That...doesn't even make sense with these particulars.  This isn't some lost secret.  This is purely a disagreement on it being useless or not, and there being some who say 'No, I've found it very useful in its current form' and others insisting 'No, I've never had it be useful and would rather not use it.'  I'm not sure what makes your anecdotal evidence or take on it so much more pertinent that I can be referred to as a brick or being accused of bragging about code knowledge or being accused of purposely skewing the game to my benefit.

I'm not certain why me encouraging you to try adopting a different methodology in its use to see if it shines for you is such a heinous thing.  But to sum it up for you, my position has remained constant throughout the thread:  I'm fine with there being more to backstab, but I don't think it's useless as is, the same way I don't think the class as a whole is in a terrible spot because I have to avoid certain climb checks or go through a different training experience than the more direct fighting guilds.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Reiloth

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Re: Backstab
« Reply #142 on: August 24, 2016, 09:28:01 PM »
I think through all the paragraphs of diatribe we are agreeing with each other, I just don't want to go through the effort of re-reading you say the same thing. I imagine you feel the same about my wordz. Less is more Armaddict!
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

Yam

  • Posts: 7622
Re: Backstab
« Reply #143 on: August 24, 2016, 09:29:08 PM »

Jingo

  • Posts: 4791
Re: Backstab
« Reply #144 on: August 24, 2016, 10:26:57 PM »
The backstab delay doesn't prevent autoattacks. It just prevents the 'before' command delay for skills like flee and kick.

I once rolled up my badass assassin into redstorm and backstabbed one of the alley npc's. My stab succeeded but then this fucker turns around and starts ripping me apart. But luckily I nick him for the final sliver of hp and he drops.

That's when I get the flee,flee,flee,flee resolution to my commands that I was furiously spamming into the delay queue.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 10:31:51 PM by Jingo »
Now you're looking for the secret. But you won’t find it because of course, you're not really looking. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Backstab
« Reply #145 on: August 24, 2016, 10:43:22 PM »
So couple things in this thread: First on grind.

If you are looking to survive raptors and scrabs, its gotten alot better. If you are looking to branch parry, well gotten better too but then again it is actually always been amazingly easy in clans.

However, if you are looking to be the very best, like no one's been before...yup there is a grind. I'm not sure what people are talking about, but the changes were specifically meant to make people competant faster, not really help make badasses. If you are the only badass in your clan, you will still have nice long wait before anyone catches up to you.  And why wouldn't it be this way?

Lets take a step back and think about it, whats the alternative? Everyone and their mothers hitting advanced with weapons and warrior brancing more often? I don't think people really want that. If you want to branch weapons, skill bumps is the fastest way, limited for 3 times a year. This is also going to change (worse/better) someday with guild changes.

As for whether or not clans are better than wildlife, I've gotten journeyman/advance with all weapons on a warrior with low wisdom in a clan with people that enjoy sparring and grinding up in less than an IC year. This was before before any sparring changes. Those people made logging in and grinding so much fun. In other clans, where sparring should take place regularly, I've just barely been able to hit journeyman with shield with several days play. Its a hit and miss thing in clans if you ask me, just depends who your clanmates are and what they are into doing.


As for assassin, I've mentioned before I think assassins should be more formidable standing toe to toe with warriors/rangers, the best combat class out of the box after warriors. Maybe even branching a weapon type. I like the ideas where backstab isn't about being a OHK move with alot of instant damage but instead just has reasonable damage which opens up the opportunity to kill your opponent outside a locked room.  Some ideas have already been stated but:

Some protection against 'look assassin' would indeed be awesome when you backstab someone. Because more assassination attempts in public places with people watching would indeed be cool.
Some protection against crime code, because half-giant soldier groups roaming around the city in abundance hurt. Maybe fights you start with backstab don't actually attract attention for a short while depending on mastery.

One hit KO backstab really isn't fun for anyone, so if it is ever change I would like to see it changed for something that allows more RP and more heart pumping action for both the victim and assassin.


If you think it's "easy" to branch parry in a clan, I'm pretty sure your head would explode at how "easy" it is to branch it on the critter grind.
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nauta

  • Posts: 2335
Re: Backstab
« Reply #146 on: August 24, 2016, 10:55:14 PM »
So couple things in this thread: First on grind.

If you are looking to survive raptors and scrabs, its gotten alot better. If you are looking to branch parry, well gotten better too but then again it is actually always been amazingly easy in clans.

However, if you are looking to be the very best, like no one's been before...yup there is a grind. I'm not sure what people are talking about, but the changes were specifically meant to make people competant faster, not really help make badasses. If you are the only badass in your clan, you will still have nice long wait before anyone catches up to you.  And why wouldn't it be this way?

Lets take a step back and think about it, whats the alternative? Everyone and their mothers hitting advanced with weapons and warrior brancing more often? I don't think people really want that. If you want to branch weapons, skill bumps is the fastest way, limited for 3 times a year. This is also going to change (worse/better) someday with guild changes.

As for whether or not clans are better than wildlife, I've gotten journeyman/advance with all weapons on a warrior with low wisdom in a clan with people that enjoy sparring and grinding up in less than an IC year. This was before before any sparring changes. Those people made logging in and grinding so much fun. In other clans, where sparring should take place regularly, I've just barely been able to hit journeyman with shield with several days play. Its a hit and miss thing in clans if you ask me, just depends who your clanmates are and what they are into doing.


As for assassin, I've mentioned before I think assassins should be more formidable standing toe to toe with warriors/rangers, the best combat class out of the box after warriors. Maybe even branching a weapon type. I like the ideas where backstab isn't about being a OHK move with alot of instant damage but instead just has reasonable damage which opens up the opportunity to kill your opponent outside a locked room.  Some ideas have already been stated but:

Some protection against 'look assassin' would indeed be awesome when you backstab someone. Because more assassination attempts in public places with people watching would indeed be cool.
Some protection against crime code, because half-giant soldier groups roaming around the city in abundance hurt. Maybe fights you start with backstab don't actually attract attention for a short while depending on mastery.

One hit KO backstab really isn't fun for anyone, so if it is ever change I would like to see it changed for something that allows more RP and more heart pumping action for both the victim and assassin.


If you think it's "easy" to branch parry in a clan, I'm pretty sure your head would explode at how "easy" it is to branch it on the critter grind.

Ugh, I'm not even sure what thread this is, but one other thing, Synthesis, another change that (in my opinion) motivates people to not do the "critter grind" to "git gud" -- a few months ago, the vs. mob_kind hidden offensive/defensive flag was fixed.  Hence, now if you skill up on scorpions, scrab, and stilt, you will be very good at fighting scorpions, scrab, and stilt, but not humanoids.  Of course, parry, backstab, etc. are neutral to mob_type, but at least now there's a lot of motivation to either (a) join a sparring clan or (b) go to the rinth or (c) find a gith or (d) just be a hunter of non-men.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Reiloth

  • Posts: 4556
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Re: Backstab
« Reply #147 on: August 24, 2016, 11:08:05 PM »
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

Reiloth

  • Posts: 4556
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Re: Backstab
« Reply #148 on: August 24, 2016, 11:51:49 PM »
Edit: Whatever.
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

Dresan

  • Posts: 1674
Re: Backstab
« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2016, 01:37:08 AM »
My understanding is the 'offense vs speciific types' never existed. It was certain people (former 'trusted' staff) seeing something and thinking it was something that is not.  

There is only one offense skill.

What Nessalin fixed/finished was another system that gives a slight bonus to offense if you've been fighting a certain thing. Its supposed to be a slight bonus, on top of your normal offense score. So if you are repeatedly hitting the heads of elves, you will  probably find you do the same with scrabs/raptors/etc even if you've never fought them. The idea was to add some combat message to let you know you had an edge, but not sure if that will ever be added.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 01:40:42 AM by Dresan »
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