RP-Enriched Combat

[slipshod]

This seems to be just as much a code issue as it is role playing, so this forum seemed like a good place to post.  I've had some ideas knocking around in my head for quite a while now... basically, I'd like to see combat altered in a way that allows for more role playing.  I think the best way to do that would be to slow it down in some way.  I don't have a definate suggestion, so I'll rattle off some ideas and hope to generate a discussion.  

Realistically, I don't think that every battle would be a rabid, chaotic dog-fight that lasted until one party drops or heads for the hills.  There are a lot of reasons for breaks in the combat... where both parties involved would back off and take five... maybe to do some trash talking, to catch their breath, to size-up their enemy, or to rethink their strategy if they aren't getting anywhere.  As it stands now, only peripheral combatants have the option of disengaging, and the only way for one of the primary fighters to stop is to flee into the next room... which would more often than not encourage your opponent to follow and attack again. when you're sparring with pals, it's alright to flee and then walk back in and pick up the RP as if you had just ducked out of the circle.  If there was a way to break from combat and stay in the room, that would allow for more role playing in 'serious combat'.  Here are a few of my ideas.. some better than others.

1.  some sort of mutual disengage code.  I don't know if they still do, but Harshlands used to have something like this.. where you could signal for a 'truce' and the other PC would have the option of accepting and ending combat.

2.  A way for one party to disengage without the consent of the opponent.  Maybe then the opponent could decide whether they also want to back down, or continue to fight and get a free round of hits on the other guy, just like when you initiate combat to begin with.  this could also be done with a toned-down version of 'flee', where you don't leave to the next room.

3. Break combat up round-by-round, or even hit-by-hit.  You could then even add modifiers to your attacks and try to target specific areas... like 'hit gith neck', or toss in emotes like 'hit gith (with a wild overhead slash of his sword).   Granted, anything this slow would give a huge advantage to NPCs, people with faster connections, or anyone sly enough to run a combat script.
          3b. If we really wanted to get crazy, we could have each party chose to 'defend' or 'attack' for each round.  A defense would add to your chance of dodging/blocking/parrying, and an attack would leave your safety in the hands of your armor and your opponent's skill, but you would also get a couple shots that round which won't be defended against if s/he also chose to attack.

Anyway... I thought I had some more ideas, but they are escaping me at the moment.  I'll share them if I remember.  Combat works the way it is.. tossing in emotes now and then.  But I really think fighting would be more realistic if every skirmish didn't have to be full-tilt chop till you drop.  Sometimes one punch is sufficient.  There are times when you wouldn't want to fight back.  There are times when you only need to knock a fella around for a couple rounds to get your point across.  There are times when you wouldn't want to flail your arms like an idiot and run off in the style of the road runner.  

PC vs. PC battle is one of the most compelling parts of this game, and I think it would benefit from a change.  Nobody envisions their character dying at the hands of a souless mob.  You want your character's personality on display at the end, and appreciated by other players... not a spam of text and the mantis head grinning at you before you finished typing your emote.

If you read this far, I hope I didn't waste your time.  Maybe I'm alone in thinking this.  Converse...... NOW!

[Forest Junkie]

1) I like.
2) Possibly. :?
3) Hell no.  :shock:

[Stroker]

Reimburse me for the time wasted on this thread ..... NOW!



Viva la Communism.

[Bedhead]

I like the 'truce' idea, but I think the rest is fine the way it is.

It would be interesting if you could couple the nosave flag with this.  Maybe if you type nosave in combat or have the flag enabled, the attacker would get the echo "<so-and-so> yields to you. "  This would stop combat and start a relatively long delay for the yeilder.  The attacker could then simply attack again, if they don't accept the yeild.

Seems like this would be the easiest thing to code, and sounds pretty cool to me.

Cheers

[Summer]

Truce is good, but please do not do the third option, that would be simply horrid.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Truce sound viable, Slipshod.

The rest of it seems...perhaps not so applicable?

[spawnloser]

I think the idea mentioned earlier, but not expounded upon, of slower combat is a good idea too.  I've been in combat and seen stuff happen that I wanted to elaborate in emotes, but then had so much else change since the time I started typing and finished typing that I couldn't bring myself to hit 'enter,' as the emote wouldn't make sense any longer.

[witchman]

Breaking the combat into rounds in which each character had time to react wouldn't be bad - especially if it only took two or three hits for an average joe to kill the other average joe - which is still slower than RL.

What is the point of swinging at someone ten times without options other than flee/kick/subdue?

If two average hits (penetrating) hits kills someone, you have a lot more time to slow the combat down and give the players more options -wether it's the options mentioned above or more carefully created crafted emotes.

I can't count the times I've emoted something like "<sdesc> swings his sword, aiming for a belly shot on as he tries to avoid %carru antlers." only to have the creature die two hits before I finish the emote.

Nothing like dodging a dead carru's antler's.

In any case, every time a thread like this is posted I like to point out that Armageddon has gone WAY BEYOND what a mud used to be, the only thing left to evolve is the combat code (though, granted there are some nice enhancements).

If you ever doubted Armageddon started as a Diku, all you have to do is get into a fight, no?  The game deserves better though it will require open minds on the part of the player base and hard, hard work on the part of the Immortals.

[Angela Christine]

I've seen a couple MUDs that had round by round combat, and it was unspeakably awful.

The point is to keep people from zoning out during combat, forcing them to re-enter "hit goblin" every three to five seconds, but it is too painful for words.  Nothing like typing "hit goblin" and getting a message telling me I can't "hit" again for 3 more seconds (variable by the results of your last combat action, your skill, and your agility) and then mentally counting off the seconds in my head so that I get my next hit it as soon as possible, otherwise it's like missing combat rounds scratching your ass.  Against NPCs it burns, because the computer controlled NPCs are always going to be better counting off the seconds to thier next action than a human.  The PvP action isn't much better, again the combat is resolved based more on the skill of the players than the skill of the characters.  I -like- automated combat, because I suck.  My timing isn't so good, I frequently misspell comands and target names, and I get flustered durring combat (I greatly prefer turn-based stratagy games to so-called "real time" stratagy games).  I completely gave up on video games a few years ago (back when I had a SNES) when I realized that I simply was never going to be able to enter "A-A-B-right arrow-down arrow" as good as the next guy or well enough to use the cheats and killer moves.

Why should my character suffer for my ineptness?  I can be inept in real life, I don't want to roleplay it, at least not -all- the time.  Nor do I want to play merchants/nobles/advisors all the time to avoid any possibility of combat.  Automated combat is the only thing that makes combat tollerable for me, and even then it's not one of my favorite things.

AC

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I could agree with slower and more deadly combat. IE: perhaps one attack every ten seconds, rounded up or down by agility and such, and then, aside from that, all the 'barely hits' and such get upgraded to ten, twenty, thirty point or more blows.

A frightening damaging blow should kill you if it is on the neck, body, or head. No questions, unless you are sparring. In fact, anything above extremely hard should kill you, with the possible exception of blunt weapons. You had better hope you can dodge, parry, use your shield, or run your ass off.

Now that I could live with.

[CindyLou]

I'm not a big fan of auto-combat. In fact it kinda bugs me. But I put my distaste for it aside in Arm because it's slow enough that I can deal with it.

I prefer a true engagement system, where you have to advance on your target, or retreat, depending on the weapons used and size of the location you're in. I'd love to see people with spears have to back up, while people with daggers having to get up close and personal unless they're throwing the dagger. Higher risk for close-range, but higher chance of getting a serious blow against your target as well, because there's less room to miss.

But since this -is- diku-based, and it -is- auto-combat, I have to say it's the best I've tried out of all diku-based auto-combat games. I would totally hate longer delays between blows, unless it was maybe an extra second every 2 or 3 rounds so you can whip out that one extra nifty emote before you flee for your life.

The truce thing I think is a great idea. Being able to disengage upon mutual consent would be so perfect in sparring sessions. In fact I'd like to see "sanctioned sparring areas" flagged to allow it automatically, without consent needed.

[Rindan]

I would love to see Armageddon get a combat make over.  I would not want to see auto-combat removed.  There are a few simple reasons for this.  The first and most obvious reason is that it would make this game unplayable during RPTs or lag.  Anyone who has been in a major combat RPT knows that when these happen your commands go through like molasses.  Under this system, that lag would turn great warriors into walking piñatas.  The other issue is that I don't want to fumble extra commands during combat.  If I have to type out all my attacks that will end up giving me less time to emote.

I would not mind seeing the system be changed to be more interactive and give a chance for better RPed combat.  For instance, I like the idea of being able to hold various stances.  It would be great if you selected Allanaki style combat and your character was at his best he was lightly armored and with light sharp obsidian weapons.  He would make quick lethal attacks with little defense.  Two people using Allanaki style would have fights last seconds.  Northern style would result in more long and drawn out fights with fewer attacks, but great defensive skill.  Guard style would emphasize heavier armor and more wearing attacks.  Storm style might be at its best when a person is armed with nothing bigger then a knife and unarmored.  So on and so forth.  It would be great if people learned how to fight with different styles.  So, if two people both switch to Allanaki Defensive style, it offers plenty of time to curse out your opponent and circle slowly.

The biggest issue with any suggestion for combat is that if you break combat, you break –everything- else.  I would guess that breaking combat means breaking half the MUD.  Anything that uses combat needs to be corrected and updated.  The more radical the changes to combat, the more of a mess it is to code.  It is one of those coding endeavors that you get once in a MUDs life time simply because it is such a pain in the ass.  If a few programmers have a good idea and are feeling lucky, go for it.  However, I wouldn't hold out too long or hard for anyone to go through and have to literally recode half the MUD just to change combat.

[Cuusardo]

Tossing out emotes in a sparring match is easier because you really aren't pressed for time and you aren't out to kill each other.  Tossing out emotes when fighting for your life is more difficult due to how quickly combat scrolls by, coupled with the stress of fighting for your life.

Just adding my two cents.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

While I like the idea of having more time to emote and act out a battle, Armageddon fights span a huge variety of ranges in terms of how -long- they take to complete.

Two veteran warriors fighting each other can sometimes go on beyond 20 minutes of parry after parry. To make those fights any longer would be unbearable. And yet, some fights are just so quick.. where say, a mediocre warrior is plowing into a newbie ranger, or whatever. A fight like that, you might want to have a few moments to RP before constantly needing to spam FLEE.

In mass character war scenes that happen from time to time (generally at RPTs), combat could really benefit from being slower, but that's more because Armageddon's combat system just wasn't designed for mass warfare. Any Diku-style auto-combat where two people dish it out with command attacks just isn't built for 15+ participants. Slowing the combat engine down would probably only benefit certain combat scenarios while it'd make other scenarios just plain slow and tedious. I don't know that it's worth the coding effort to rebuild the combat engine (which is already one of the most advanced combat engines out there, despite its imperfections).

However!

The idea thrown up in this thread about disengaging combat is one I'm sure would benefit everyone, and that shouldn't be too hard to implement.

The idea of changing your fighting style sounds pretty good, but rather than name each style its own name, I think giving several categories of offensive and defensive posture would be enough, while the player could simply define the styles themselves. I.e. pure defense style mode, cautious style mode, balanced mode, pressuring style, pure offensive berserk mode, whatever. It could be a feature that raises and lowers different offensive and defensive rolls depending on whatever stance is chosen. A few MUDs already have this implemented, and I've found the styles to be nothing but positive implementations, as it allows players to be more interactive in their auto-battles instead of passively watching. This kind of option allows PCs to conceal their full fighting ability, and also gives them a choice to be less aggressive in sparring scenarios when facing a beginner.

[creeper386]

I don't think the Combat needs to be completely rehashed or even a minor overhaul. It just needs to be fleshed out like the rest of the MUD has been.

Things such as styles(Defensive, Offensive, and so on)... Being able to act worse then you really are(When training someone might not want to rip their heads off, specially a warrior training a non-warrior)... And any other way to give a variety of options need to be added. Not so much to get an advantage to any specific things, but to allow people to more customize how they fight BEFORE the fight. Adding in different echoes for different skills depending on fighting styles and skill level would be nice. Like if your fighting defensively sometimes the parry echo will be slightly different to show a more defensive style. Or if your not that good the echoes show that you just barely poor off the parry or something like that.

If there were more ways outside of combat to customize a character, and a wider array of echoes dependant on those customizations, it'll show more the characters fighting style so your emotes don't have to be so much about that, leaving the more gritty things to get into. As well as making combat alot less bland to watch.

Making ways to aim, at least in general would be nice. Have a change aim which could be upper/mid/lower. If there were specific damage locations include each specific location. Damage to the legs could effect movement but not OVERTLY so, damage to the arm holding a weapon could lead to less accuracy with the weapon, again not to a huge degree. Hmm... Although mostly what I'd like to see is a more advanced injury code... Including locations per above... Not so that the code can make permanent injuries and such(Maybe an option if the player wants it with Staff intervention) but so that there can be more... Strategy... Then just hit so and so, kick, disarm, bash, kick, disarm.... Well it's not THAT bad but you get the idea.

Also along with that having an over haul on weapon damage. Slashing and Bludgeoning damage should be different, and more so then bludgeoning weapons also do stun damage. Shouldn't be knocked out because some dwarf is hitting your big toe with a club... A heavy slash/chop/pierce to the head probably would have some effect on your mental ability to stay in control and awake.

Only problem is a better injury code would be complex... I'd just like things fleshed out more.

Creeper who has no new ideas and rambles, so don't worry about it.

[Gorobei]

Oh yeah, implementing combat styles would make my week.
(n/t)

[slipshod]

I like these ideas about different fighting styles, and I'm still keen on some sort of mutual disengage option.  Flaming Ocotillo mentioned how a fight between a couple veterans could go on and on for 20 minutes.  That would be the perfect time for them to back away for a moment, rethink their strategy, and maybe go back in using a different fighting style.  If you could break from the combat without having to flee first, you'd save face too.  Two people both using a defensive style would have a much slower fight.

Like AC, I much prefer turn-based strategy to real-time fighting.  I lose a lot of emotes in combat by typoing keywords, or getting the emote off after the one with the keyword died...probably because of those spaghetti fightin' fingers some of us get.  

I also like the ideas brought up about injuries... how a grotesquely brutal chop to the neck should kill or mortally wound a person, even if they are at 95% hp. One of the best fighting games I ever played was Bushido Blade.  There wasn't a health-bar, and most fights ended with one or two slashes of the sword.  But when those slashes came was still up in the air.. depending players' tactics.  You could go for the kill right away, or play cat and mouse for a while first.  It would be great if you could lose limbs too, but I suppose we can do that now if we ask the immortals to change our desc. and whatnot after a wicked injury.

[crawly]

I think the keywords need to be "quick" and "brutal".

The system I would like to see would be focusing on the manuvering before the actual combat as much as on the actual combat. It would also be madly harsh and brutal leaving character scarred for life.


First: A prepared combatant should really kill a unsuspecting person in one or maybe two blows. In this case the actual combat would be trivial.
Getting in position for the kill without getting the other person to realise it would be the tricky part.
Just like you would sneak past someone you could sneak up behind someone or if theres alot of people around you might simply walk up between him/her.
Once you get in that position its basically over. That blade will simply cut through him unless he manages to somehow dodge or get out of the way.

in a case where both combatants are ready a fight will occur.

I wouldnt have to be very complicated.
Lets say default is that your character simply tries to hold his/her distance while feeling the opponent still focusing on defence (light attacks that mostly gets parried or does minor damage).
A sudden charge might reward you by a quick kill or if the opponent manages to dodge might result in a devasting flankattack. The balance would lie in the fact that while you risk alot by holding off your attack you might potentially get rewarded.
If you were trying to buy some time you could go all defensive and thus do minimal damage to your opponent.
Anyone here that have practised some kind of martial arts knows that you can stay up almost indefinitly if you go all out defensive and retreat when needed.

Lastly regarding wounds. In a harsh enviroment like the setting of this game the results of battle should be just about equally harsh in my opinion. A brawl could leave you with bruising that heals relatively quick but a bladed combat should result in nasty bleeding wounds and possibly even severed limbs.
A severed limb would be fatal unless you could get some seriously good medical attention. Even a "normal" slash to the leg damaging muscle and tendons could or should give you a limp for the rest of your life. Getting stabbed once by a knife in the abdomen should be possibly fatal. Remember, getting in a position where a "real" blow can be delivered is one of the descisive moments of the fight. Just like when you watch 10 rounds of boxing and theres maybe 5 times during the entire fight that possible winning blows get delivered.

Battle should be avoided and regarded as the serious affairs they are. If you risk going offensive to win a fight you also risk getting seriously hurt or possibly dead. On the other hand defending and retreating might leave you unharmed if you could get help in time.


Just my 2 cents.

[Xygax]

First: A prepared combatant should really kill a unsuspecting person in one or maybe two blows. In this case the actual combat would be trivial.
Getting in position for the kill without getting the other person to realise it would be the tricky part.

This is precisely what I imagine backstab to be.

[crawly]

Ok, let me put it this way.

The things leading up to a fight decides the outcome of the fight almost always. Games have serious problems coding this, in fact I can think of none.

You are walking down the street after a hard day at the market trying to sell your wares. You think about the sweet girl waiting back home and what she might be cooking for dinner. And thoguh you have a sword its sheathed at your side under your greatcloak. You hands clutch the straps of your backpack heavy with bartered goods. Suddenly out of the blue you get jumped by a person with a weapon in hand, fully balanced and coming at you like a hurricane. Who will win?

You are slowly stalking your pray through heavy forest. Tightly gripping your spear and straining to hear twigs cracking and other sounds. Everytime you hear something you stop to listen and scan the bushes ahead. Adrenalin is pumping and every sense is working overtime. Suddenly you get jumped by a person with a weapon in hand, fully balanced and coming at you like a hurricane. Who will win?


Thats kinda what I mean... ahh. Its to late. Ill sleep on it and try to explain tomorrow.

[Gorobei]

That's what backstab is for.
Also, even if your character doesn't have backstab, attacking someone and getting that one or two rounds in before they draw their weapon is pretty brutal.  Especially if you bash them to begin the fight.

[sacac]

I know what you mean... combat is way to fast for my pc. I can't escape a captor and know that I escaped before they grab me again.
like right now, I had to scroll up to know why I'm mortally wounded laying in a prison.....

[witchman]

Sarac - combat is really fast, no doubt. I often find myself a few lines behind . Hey - maybe that's why I die alot.  Heh.

Anyway, please don't post IC stuff about your character like where he is and what he's doing.  Try to be very general.  :-)

[sacac]

that's just an example

[Summer]

I have to say I pretty much like things the way they are now. I don't want combat slowed down (except NPC dodginess) and I don't want to make it super brutal, it already is fairly brutal under the right circumstances.

[Dan]

In time you will find yourself not having to scroll back.

The combat does go fast, granted. With a couple years under your belt you'll be able to escape from a couple raptors who charged you and knocked you off of your mount without batting an eyelash, but rather, throwing out emotes of how much pain you are in. It is tricky, but I have managed this before.

I don't see any reason why any of my characters, if played smart, would die a -quick- death. You can handle any situation if you use common sense and always be ready, this is the "trick" to armageddon as far as I see it.

For some reason, I can't see why you would die if you play realistically, would your character really go see if that halfling will want to eat you? If so, you should be fully prepared to deal with anything, a wild card tembo coming from the side as you move in, or mayby another halfling.

Shit does happen, I will admit, but the thing is to just play realistically and be prepared for -anything-, even the things you can't prepare for if that makes any sense.

[Stroker]

Or maybe that crazy lag that leaves your screen scrolling to reveal a mantis head.

[Anonymous]

The only complaint I have at all about the combat system isn't really about the combat system itself, just npc that are unaffected by lag the same as the pc's, mainly the militia in the cities and guards in the outposts.

[slipshod]

Dirr, I can't give you your refund for this thread if you participate in this late push it's getting.

anyhoo, my thoughts on the combat system weren't really intended for application to NPC vs PC situations, but rather PC vs PC battles.  Slowing it down would just allow for more role play during combat, but not so that combat is any less brutal or effective... just more flavorful.  

I see witchman started a thread in RP discussion about this same topic.  
you should have posted here, man!  We could raise awareness for our cause better with one 50 post thread than two 25s